O, Annie Clark, what have you done?
Seems like you showed us a vision of a world of disconnection, the age of HD resolution with no substance. Prosaic images in high resolution.
Digital Witness. Mute Witness. The horror of being frozen in space while all the contractors are moving in around you.
You want to scream, but, you can’t be heard.
So, very cleverly Annie has taken the path of the digital highway. She throws these images and sounds back in our faces.
She looks like one of them. Maybe she is one of them.
One of who?
Those cold aliens of disconnection.
O, all the lack of feeling. All the drained and bleached out colors. An impending age of whiteness and snow blindness.
Well, really what Annie is doing (in the incarnation of St. Vincent) is she is embodying that alien coldness and projecting it back out through her music, videos, and in interviews with those pointless interlocutors.
She is teaching a lesson about a world of disconnection and what it does to a sensitive, feeling soul such as hers and mirroring it back out into artistic plasticity.
But, is she really in possession of this coldness?
Is she really that monotonically removed?
Understand, that I have next to no familiarity with St. Vincent. But, it is clear to me from watching a few of her interviews, productions, and so forth that she is an INFJ and not an INTJ as seems more evident at a surface and passing glance level.
Without really thinking about it and without doing any further researching, I could easily believe that Annie Clark is an INTJ from watching her in the aforementioned embedded videos.
She has done a great emulation of such. I can buy it and pass on into the next thing.
I actually agreed with Alejandro when he posted his first comment about it in the INFJ vs. INTJ article. I was like “yeah, sure, she is an INTJ.”
Then when Piggie rebutted with her very cogent analysis, I was like “wait a minute, let me check more into this St. Vincent thingie”, upon which I thought after more research into her, that “yes, she would indeed make a good subject for a type challenge.”
As I suspected, most of the opening commenters were declaring INTJ left and right, and then slowly it seemed, upon further argumentations, plus further footage of St. Vincent that more people started coming around to INFJ.
Yes, even Alejandro changed his mind.
So, good job Piggie! Your added analyses were all highly on point, and very convincing.
I actually don’t have much to add to Piggie’s analyses. I pretty much completely agree with everything she said.
Which is not to say that she is right in some ultimate objective sense, but, no one can be in this field of inquiry.
However, some arguments and proofs make more sense than others.
Yes, it is evident that St. Vincent to the untrained eye displays many of the classic traits of INTJ. I would say, like one commenter said, that she is presenting an INTJ vision. I would even say that St. Vincent is an INTJ.
But, Annie Clark is not.
Annie is an INFJ.
An INFJ caught in a cruel and mechanized world of high-resolution emptiness.
A digital witness.
She chameleonizes herself to look like a part of this world…but, only to act as a spokesperson against it.
Ah, yes, extraverted feeling is at play in this after all.
And I noticed (per expectation) that many people have a somewhat simplistic and naïve portrayal of what Fe is.
Fe in the auxiliary, doubly so.
You see, Fe is not simply about “making nice”. Fe is not simply about being a “people-pleaser”. I will grant you that Fe does have some of these traits in it, but, I think one of the reasons that prospective INFJs are overlooked as being such is because of people looking for this quality of “niceness” in all INFJs.
And that also brings me to the auxiliary function. I feel the auxiliary function of all the major accepted functions (dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, and inferior) is the most poorly understood of the lot.
First of all, the auxiliary function is an elective function. You get to choose consciously whether you use this function at all, and if used, how it is used (well, the latter, particularly in the case of Fe auxiliary).
This is not so with the dominant and id function, which basically are the equivalent of involuntary functions such as breathing is in the human body. If you don’t breathe, you don’t get to be here to do anything else.
And so I think it is with Fe in the auxiliary. INFJs are misidentified all the time on this basis. “Where is their Fe?” I hear this all the time.
Well, the INFJ in question may be choosing not to use Fe, for one thing.
Also, we have to take into account, that because an INFJ doesn’t have dominant or id Fe that they may be using Fe as a skin to project the things of their involuntary introverted functions.
It is very noticeable that Annie Clark is often choosing not to project an image of Fe, that is, being nice and accommodating, or to use her language “I don’t want to be a cheerleader no more”.
Many INFJs consciously will go out of their way to not project an image of niceness or harmony with others.
Why?
Partly as a form of revenge I suspect.
But, also, partly because they know how capable they are of doing just that – “being nice”.
And this don’t gel too well with Ni truthfulness.
So, yes, an INFJ is very capable of forestalling their positive powers of Fe accord and feel-goodery if they feel the truth of a given situation would be compromised by doing so.
They can also use this Fe projective power to make fools of other people around them by a kind of snide silence. In other words, they can make their interlocuters feel pretty fucking dumb if they are asking questions that are not conveying the core of the matter.
And plus, INFJs just plain like to mystify other people and remain an inscrutable mystery.
But, in the case of Annie Clark, a prolific and relatively successful artist, she is just asking you to pay attention to her art. Just listen and look. It’s all there.
So, that’s pretty much an Ni thing. Both INFJs and INTJs have it. So do ENFJs and ENTJs, sometimes even more in evidence as an auxiliary projection. Watch Brando in an interview sometime. Good luck interviewers!
But, put Fe with Ni. Fuggedaboutit.
You see, an INTJ will just be more to the point if questioned. I do not believe that INTJs do this quixotic mysterio type shit. That’s a Te projection for you (Te in the auxiliary). It’s just straightforward and to the point. It may seem cold on that point, but, relatively honest and demystifying. I mean, as much as an Ni process can be dymystified or amenable to communication.
INFJs are always shapeshifting. One moment they can be affable and open, the next time you see them they are closed off and mean.
For example, put an INTJ in a bunch of interview scenarios. They will more or less be the same way across all the different time spectrums and varieties of interviewers.
Why?
Because they have a relative lack of Fe.
I mean, INTJs are just who they are, more or less.
What they may be showing you may be a very unconventional type of person who is truly bizarre and perhaps removed and alienesque and all that good business.
But, that is just who they are.
Watch Brian Eno sometime in various interviews. He is a definite INTJ musician and composer and he is also has a long history of production.
Watch Kate Bush. She is just an honest-to-god out their weirdo. She is merely expressing herself. And it’s pretty weird. And beautiful. And whatever. But, the point is that she is just what she appears to be. It may be strange and incomprehensible to many people, but, it is honest, direct, and open.
Compare this to St. Vincent. What I sense with her, both in her music (videos) and her interviews is a bit of a put-on. It’s like she is purposely trying to create disturbing images and sounds just to fuck with your attention (and to make you pay attention). I’m sure she is perfectly capable of writing normal pop songs, for example. But, it’s like she takes these pop songs and intentionally fucks with them to make them disturbing and grating.
She does the same thing in some of the interviews I’ve seen where she perceives that she is in the presence of ignorant interviewers. She puts up an image of coldness, inaccessibility, and so forth. Does this mean that she is truly incapable of intimacy and connection and humanity?
No, rather, she is all too capable of it. But, the rub is that she feels like she has been violated and so now she will intentionally and with great presence and control “not be nice”.
Do you know that INFJs can be some of the nastiest people in the world if they choose to be? They can wound and hurt with their great psychological awareness and intensity of experience. They can break your heart just like their heart was broken.
More than any other type, an INFJ can make you feel the pain they have experienced. Hey, isn’t that what makes for a great artist?
Well, part 2 of what makes a great artist is the ability to make what is so painful in human experience pleasurable on some level. This is the equivalent of the INFJ Fe auxiliary in its healing expression.
St. Vincent, from what I have seen, does not do that. It looks to me that she INTENTIONALLY does not do that.
She wants you to sit with that bad feeling. That horror of emptiness. That ugliness of uniformity. And she wants to remain static in that mixture. She is just becoming a part of that picture. But, there are sly winks here and there. Little bits of irony.
So, diagnosis time.
St. Vincent is an INFJ with an intentionally withheld auxiliary Fe.
I think she probably started out (in life) with more Fe. Or more typical Fe expression, which means being nice, a people-pleaser, a cheerleader, whatever.
And then she started to grow into her astrology more.
What! What’s that I said?
Yes, astrology motherfucker!
As it so turns out, and initially unbeknownst to me (because I made a conscious resolve not to check her astrology), Annie Clark was born during the time when the Sun was in Libra and the Moon was in Aquarius.
At least, that is what a couple of commenters (Piggie being one of them) reported.
If that is true, that only goes to seal this case with a finality that is beyond reproach in my book.
Because, by my lights, a Libra Sun = Te auxiliary (especially the ISTJ brand of it) and an Aquarius Moon = the exact id function (Ti) of an INTJ type.
Let me just say that I’m not at all surprised that Annie has an Aquarius Moon. All that “paranoid android” type stuff that we see from Radiohead is just up this very sort of creek (Um, yeah, Radiohead definitely presents an INTJ-ish vision too).
Same sort of message. Disconnection in an increasingly digitized, mechanized, and high-definition world of emptiness.
It also goes along with her Libra Sun, especially that video where she is cracking like a porcelain doll and slowly falling to pieces. That is the essence of the Libra archetype in disarray. So is “the cheerleader”. The pretty statue that is smiling while falling apart deep inside. Until eventually the cracks start to show through onto the surface, and typical of Libra’s lack of feeling, just shatters as it is smiling or putting on a good appearance.
So, basically, yes, via Annie’s astrology it looks like her innate INFJ self was called forth to embody a rather INTJ vison of emptiness and lack of feeling.
That whole Stepford Wives imagery is Libran. And the mute witnessing (or the digital witnessing) is Aquarian Moon.
O, there is so much more to say, but, so much of it has been touched upon quite beautifully by various commenters in the last article.
This is my rough and relatively uninformed take on the matter of St. Vincent’s psychological type.
Yes, St. Vincent is an INTJ.
But, Annie Clark is an INFJ.
Well summed
“they may be using Fe as a skin to project the things of their involuntary introverted functions.”
So complicated….
Well one thing is for sure…. infjs=unboring.
“Yes St. Vincent is an INTJ. Annie Clark is an INFJ.” Beautiful summation there. Extremely well and simply put. Thanks Blake. It was a very good guess what type exercise.
Thanks Rita. Glad you enjoyed it. And thanks for your participation in it as well 🙂
Awesome 🙂
Thank you Piggie and Alejandro too. You offered up wonderful food for thought throughout and you were the spearheads behind the whole thing!
“Well, really what Annie is doing (in the incarnation of St. Vincent) is she is embodying that alien coldness and projecting it back out through her music, videos, and in interviews with those pointless interlocutors.”
What would be the purpose to do the same in the interviews as she does in her art? I think I get it sort of.
This was a fantastic game and I resonate with your reveal. The abandonment of Fe in terms of ‘making nice’ makes sense and I understand.
Fe, the use of it, in this sense, you come to feel you’ve betrayed yourself by your own use of it. By the pressure you feel is exerted upon you to use it. Because you always feel people’s need for it from you. And then you wonder if it is in fact your need after all, because you are fragile and you project… could account for some, but not all.
Often Fe feels knee jerk, like it is difficult to choose else but I admire her control. I’ve often just wanted to take a vow of silence that I am not required to use it.
And there is this:
“Partly as a form of revenge I suspect.” [refraining from using your ‘nice’]
Maybe [as in yes].
You realize that as thoughtful and gentle as you try to be with people, they don’t notice you are shielding them from their own blundering or they don’t care for or seem to have Fe and say shit to you regardless.
And yes to the rest of your above observations regarding Fe as well.
“Often Fe feels knee jerk, like it is difficult to choose else but I admire her control. I’ve often just wanted to take a vow of silence that I am not required to use it.
And there is this:
“Partly as a form of revenge I suspect.” [refraining from using your ‘nice’]
Maybe [as in yes].
You realize that as thoughtful and gentle as you try to be with people, they don’t notice you are shielding them from their own blundering or they don’t care for or seem to have Fe and say shit to you regardless.”
I relate to this sooooo much but with different functions! But the general “drying up” ….. Basically being a feeler is crap in so many ways…. it is draining, it is either not reciprocated nor appreciated. So gradually over time, you try to be more blunt or dry or neutral or unyielding or ungiving and just won’t give “the life force” or whatever that shit is any more. It can involve a certain personal disintegration to go that way…. I think that is something you infjs don’t seem to have to do however. You’re still together somehow. And still with a voice. For you guys it looks like growth.
I guess no it does not look like growth, but it looks like an option or choice. So it looks like strength. I think this is what makes infjs look so strong. They can be so balanced between feeling and thinking.
I have loads of envy.
But that’s okay:) There is always reincarnation.
I very much enjoy type analyses of INFJ actors. There are just so many layers to peel back, and when you seemingly arrive at an answer, there are either more layers, or not enough. Onions are entirely composed of layers, and to the INFJ, each layer is a truthful projection of some aspect of their personality. This makes the personas that INFJs wear all the more stronger; they are real.
Speaking of personas, I’ve noticed many INFJ actors emphasize the fact that their on-screen/stage performances are caricatures of themselves. This added layer of complexity leads to many wrong turns when it comes to typing actors themselves. Which is why I’m interested in the different types of some actors I’ve followed over the years.
For example Bo Burnham, who I see as an INFJ, is often typed as an INTJ, ENTP, or even ENFP. Among his many performances, he puts on a rather edgy and abrasive act. Yet he points out in some of his interviews, he works through a great deal of anxiety for each of his shows.
Dare I point out Chris Evans, another actor who is typed as ENFP, ESFJ, ENFJ, but not usually INFJ.
Interesting stuff.
Well, I feel vindicated. :>
Yeah, I like my explanation that Annie took a fairly academic approach in analyzing and breaking down art artistic thesis for St. Vincent. It may come off as “cold” INTJ to some people, but it’s more the analytical process that I think an INFJ would engage in.
And yeah, I guess you can say she very carefully constructed this persona for the sake of this thesis and pulled it off well with her Fe skills.
The tying of astrology into it to give her a drier, more mental-plane-than-emotional-plane vibe is the icing on the cake.
@ Prax
Are you saying that an INFJ is more liable to deconstructionism in art than an INTJ?
@ Blake
I think INFJs are more liable to be in art academia in the first place and will use Ti for those purposes in order to give more credibility and nuance to their work.
And yeah, the INFJs so do know have this kind of slant! Their play with theme, context, and hierarchy probably has a more explosive/dissection feel to it.
I am also into art more as a hobby, but as an INTJ, my kind of deconstruction will probably look a bit more.. I want to say mathy or categorized. Maybe a more minimized and “neat” or “clean” dissection of a few elements of interest instead of blowing-things-apart-and-marvelling-the-mess. It probably just won’t look that complex and nuanced in comparison. lol
I think while both types are liable to delving deep and picking things apart, INFJ might have a more tearing chunks off feel (Fe?) and then going back in intentionally to pick at the raw pieces (Ti?)–like investigating a crime scene on the spot! INTJ probably has a more clean slices feel (Te?) and then adding the essence back in to see how it plays out (Fi?)–like having samples at a lab and trying to reconstruct the scene?
Not sure how well the analogy goes, but that’s kind of my overall impression of how the different types “deconstruct” to create.
My INFJ friend for example, usually gets the overall impression/emotional picture of a situation first and later brings it back for analysis (e.g. That person was upset and I think saying this would have set them off further so I was careful and made them feel things would be okay, but now that I look back, they were being hypocritical and now I am angry I was so accommodating and enabling of their behavior!), while I am more likely to inquire about what’s happening on a factual basis, then try to put it together to understand what is really being experienced (e.g. That person said this happened to them and put it in this timeline and I tried to sort out what was happening but it contradicted some stuff I think would happen, but I guess in the end they were upset and just really wanted validation that I forgot to give since I was more interested in the facts being laid out so now they probably don’t trust me to be a supportive friend!). We tend to reach the same conclusions, but find different ways of getting there.
So much analysis. When her INFJ comes clearly when she complains that she always has had the need of pleasing others. Amazing site anyways.
Thanks for this exercise, Blake. It was very illuminating in terms of the various directions Fe can take to accomplish whatever its objective is. What’s actually most interesting to me is how Annie has changed her tone and the way she manifests this function over the different records. What I’m transfixed on now, though, is how she will continue to shape her music in the future. It’s clear that she has finally formed “St. Vincent” with her most recent album, but I feel as though she could drastically change her tactics via Fe in the future to convey whatever it is she is thinking about. Perhaps her astrology could shed some light onto how she will continue to develop.
In any case, this was very interesting and enlightening. Part of me was sort of hoping she would be INTJ because I wanted to be able to see and analyze what a current INTJ artist presents as, and compare that with some of the other INFJ artists of the day. For now though to get a better idea of that I’ll be looking more into some of the INTJ artists you have spoken about to get a better feel for them.
Your welcome Alejandro and thanks for inspiring this type challenge!
I still think she’s an enneagram 4 INFP.
I can nearly tell you’re an INFP only reading this comment
Tell how?
Every time an INFP sees someone they admire or relate to in the slightest way, they’re like “oh thats what I am, he/she is exactly like me, what a coincidence…”
That’s based on my experience with INFPs, please don’t rage if you think I’m wrong
the thing is…I am not an INFP 🙂
Hi Nuttins, I am infp and tend to admire anyone that can be admired. Like for ex, successful people, beautiful people, or confident people or independent people etc. 🙂 I kind of admire Blake:) actually.
Hey fbag… cool. Didnt say you were. It was more of a serious joke.
Lunar, its more complicated than what I said in that comment, but I’m you can get the grasp.
Nuttins, I am not sure what it meant. As most people I admire I think are not infps. Are you saying infps you have seen tend to extend one similarity to complete similarity?
Yes, pretty much, but only if they want to be like the person in some way (thus “admire”. Sorry I wasnt clear). Doing this seems to give INFPs some kind of motivation, a glow in their eyes.
Not saying you do this though, it’s just a trait I’ve seen in a lot of INFPs.
She is not infp. Infps have no voice.
What do you mean “no voice” ?
Lunar, I can’t help but notice that many of your comments are very deprecating towards INFPs (as well as yourself). And if you can’t try to reframe your perspective even though you’ve been offered alternate perspectives before, I’d like to ask you to keep those thoughts to yourself from now on. I type as INFP as well, and quite frankly, I don’t like reading your comments sometimes. I don’t mind an honest assessment of strengths and weaknesses, but your comments don’t fall into that category.
I have a lot to offer the world and to the people around me, whatever their type is. I do have a voice and am capable of expressing it in an impactful way. You don’t speak for me. And I hope that you can learn that everything you read on here doesn’t make the final call on your life – you do.
Lml519, sorry. I just meant the mute thing. Not having the ability to project big like this St Vincent. Her projection is epic and “seen”. I meant mute in the sense of Mute Fi. Well… I always experience Fi that way. Like something that has no visible projection. I might be doing the letters wrong. Maybe it is Ni that projects.
After this typing I became convinced a friend of mine is not intj but infj. The reason is that she can reveal and be seen. I now think it is a nearly unique infj ability. One of the reasons I thought Clark is intj was she is a lot like my friend whom I thought was intj. I came to the conclusion that My friend is infj just because of this being seen thing. She reveals intimacy of some kind. Different sides of herself in different degrees like she has an intricate system of gates. But the most ding moment for me is she can be seen when she wants.
She is control of it kind of. As an infp I can’t control who sees what in me.
Anyhow, I will stop posting about infps. It is true that my words there were loaded. I should probably take off for a while.
Aww lunar.. Some of the best and most evocative artists are INFPs.. Off the top of my head a couple of contemporary musicians like Dallas Green (City and Colour) and Tyler Joseph (Twenty One Pilots) come to mind.. And Twenty One Pilots have some MAD stage performances.. Of course i’m not sure about his type.. But it seems like Ne expression to me.. Which can be just as cool as Fe expression.. 🙂
@ Lunar
Check out the band Toad the Wet Sprocket. I think the main guy in that band, Glen Phillips, is an INFP. And, in my opinion, they put out one of the best albums of the 90’s, Dulcinea. Absolutely beautiful album. And much of it due to Glen Philips vocals, guitar playing and songwriting abilities.
Check it out! I think Dulcinea is a very INFP-themed album. It gives you that special INFP flavor! Yo!
@Piggie
Yey examples of infps.
I never heard about infp artists or anything. The only thing I PERSONALLY have known about infps is they can sit and listen or they can suffer through careers not well suited for them if sitting and listening is not their career. I PERSONALLY tend to see them as better at listening than having a voice. Kind of what I had meant by my comment about how in my book no way Annie Clark is infp.
I do know a successful infp mathematician (I know she is infp because she is same as me and tested), but she is kind of like a “visitor in the math world” and is really struggling to keep the whole together (work and life). She’s really a lovely person and I admire her.
I’ll be happy to check out your mentioned artists!!
Oh fuck yeah, an example of an INFP artist 😀 And the music’s so beautiful!! I’m so happy right now! Lunar don’t stop posting about INFP’s, I enjoy your comments 🙂
@Olivia
Thank you:) Yey. I understood Lml519’s reaction to my loaded post, so I will continue to post but try to be more careful. Sometimes I am harsh in a way. Scary stuff.
@Blake
I only now saw your Dulcinea post! More to look at! There are so many comments sometimes it’s hard to keep up but I noticed you’ve got quite the gathering there of commenters that are like reading every single post anyone writes! Kind of amazing.
@lunar
INFP singer = Enya comes to mind. Sinead O’connor perhaps?
Though reflecting back at my comment, St. vincent does not look like them. Both Enya and Sinead are doe-eyed and St.Vincent is not. Her eyes are cold. She is a T type with Ne flavor perhaps cause her style seems to carry Ne-flavor.
She’s not crazy and out of control like an ENTP would be. Does that mean she’s an INTP then? But why would an INTP pursue a career in music?
Is that common?
Wow. I’ve found this link and it says David Byrne might be an INTP musician? Credible?
Doesn’t his style and facial expression (expressionless blank eyes?) look like that of St.Vincent’s?
Regarding INFPs and “no voice” that Lunar suggests, I began to wonder if because of their superb listening skills, if we may find some excellent examples of INFPs conducting interviews. Could NPR’s Terry Gross be a possible INFP? Her interviews are very warm and “safe” in a sense, but then she gets underneath in some unexpected ways and finds people’s motivations, emotions, and underlying attitudes. She seems to like to do research on her interview subjects and gathers lots of data. I don’t know that she is an INFP at all, but something of her style makes me think an INFP could be very good in that capacity. I see one way INFPs use their unique voice is as a reflective conduit which invites others to use theirs while remaining authentic and open within the interaction. Just some thoughts that came to my mind later after listening to a Terry Gross segment and wondering about her “voice” in a literal and figurative way.
Hey Lunar,
I didn’t mean for you to take my last comment to mean that you should censor yourself. It just comes from my personal frustration at the abundance of INFP’s across the internet who seem to detest themselves and their types and aspire to be everything else, especially INFJ’s. That’s what came across to me about your posts. It’s disheartening. Especially to someone in the younger generation on their own personal journey of growth.
I was only hoping to less posts that reference the use/value (or lack thereof) in being INFP (and I know that you have already done this, and thank you for being open to feedback). It’s too subjective and what’s more, you can’t choose your type any more than you can choose to breathe to live so you just have to embrace it. Fully. I like to think that’s why a lot of us are here, is to learn how to do that.
Anyway this will be my last comment on this matter, as I don’t want to detract from the original post and typing discussion. Thanks Lunar for taking heed to my rant, hope I wasn’t too harsh 🙂
There is a lot of variation in type, Lunar as we’ve been seeing, so just own what is yours. That is, use “I”. If you have difficulty with your voice, claim it “My lack of voice” and other INFP’s might resonate, and they might not. That will help with what is type related and what is human related, like confidence, methinks.
Not that confidence isn’t somewhat type related in my mind, but not always. I do think it is sensitive related though. My personal experience leans thatta way.
@TinyYelllowTree
Will do.
This was a really fun one! I think what cinched it for me was the interview I think Piggie linked, particularly when Annie says something like, “I bet people would pay you a lot of money to sit here and talk about their issues”. She says it with this kind of shy pleasure; she has that kind of eagerness to open up that I think INFJs get when they have the rare chance to do so with someone they’re really clicking with. Kind of savoring being able to get really into her feelings.
I think you’ve said before, Blake, that when INTJs talk about their problems or whatever, it’s in a more detached way. My experience with INTJs is somewhat limited, especially in day-to-day life, but in my experience, they don’t care to go on at length about that stuff. They don’t seem to get much out of it – or, to simplify maybe, it doesn’t make them feel good the way it might for an INFJ.
And it seems to me like an INFJ can easily look like an INTJ if they were toning down their Fe or using it more to discomfit, but I can’t really picture an INTJ seeming “INFJ-ish”. I felt like Annie had too many flashes of INFJ-ness for me to commit to INTJ, even though that was what my gut was telling me.
I really like this part of the article: “Many INFJs consciously will go out of their way to not project an image of niceness or harmony with others […] partly because they know how capable they are of doing just that – ‘being nice’. And this don’t gel too well with Ni truthfulness.” This comes up with me a lot – like someone will be telling me something harebrained plan or decision, clearly in hopes of me petting their feelings (especially when they’re used to seeing me as someone who does this for them), and I’ll be thinking all the while how I know exactly what sweet validating thing they want to hear and how it would make them feel so much better, but then, would it really help them to encourage them in their delusions when I can already see what disaster it’s leading to…but if I said the blunt and cold thing I was actually thinking, they wouldn’t listen anyway PLUS they would be upset…and so on and so forth.
So, sometimes I end up just saying the blunt cold thing anyway. And then people are shocked. I suspect that maybe for some INFJs, being confronted with that shock from people who are used to the INFJ being so “nice” all the time can get exhausting, so then they end up just being more dry and cold in their presentation as a general thing.
Yes, I agree that “many INFJs will go out of their way not to project ‘niceness’ and harmony.” There can be a good number of reasons to refrain from utilizing this function. In the case of someone famous, such as Annie Clark, to do so all of the time would be exhausting. She is an artist so exerts her energy that way. When you use energy in one direction at high volume, other parts will be automatically turned down. No one can be at a level 10 on a 0-10 scale on all areas of cognition and expression. You have to choose and prioritize some of your resources and limit others to maximize your aims.
How many INFJs could really relate to her loneliness experiment? INFJs of all types probably engage in these to varying degrees regularly. Even if it is “wait a minute. I need time to ___________(think, process, work, function, regroup, put the pieces together, etc….)
Oh yes, and the truthfulness thing. Very good point. Weighing all the truths in a situation and combining that with honest Fe can be a reason just to opt out of the whole Fe thing at times. The greater good as we understand it vs. what others want to hear and are pushing to hear from us. It can be a struggle to bridge that gap tactfully. Sometimes just avoiding, sidestepping, or being blunt and honest are just how it must go. Often not ideal.
@Rita
I go into what i call “hibernation mode” when i feel like i’ve had enough and i need time to just be me inside my head.. It’s strange for others (the extroverts) when i turn off my phone and my computer on weekends.. They think something is bothering me and won’t stop asking me if i’m upset or mad at them, when actually, it’s not about them or anyone else, but myself.. I just need the space to get back into my head and restructure my understanding of the world and find my emotional center.. If i don’t get this space and time, i feel terrified that i’m not growing as a person.. Too much communication makes me feel like i’m stagnating.. I used to feel guilty about this earlier.. But i’m starting to learn to not to be afraid to ask for it..
Piggie,
Through most cultures and religions, the need to stop and reflect seems to be fundamental to well being and spirituality. Just stopping the input of the world for a time is such a relief and a rejuvenating thing to do. How can anyone be their best selves constantly producing, engaging, and doing it at full blast all the time? INFJ or no, it seems a missing link little emphasized in present day culture. Mini-breaks and time outs can be helpful in the mundane day to day, but why should we feel compelled to be “on” all the time and why not take a bit of reflection and study time in a block of hours? What you do sounds healthy to me. Being a hermit as a career could not be too satisfying, I don’t think. However, taking a much needed break in the noise of life and encroaching data streams sounds balanced in my eyes. Of course, who is ever balanced? It is an ongoing challenge even for those of us who strive for it. Hats off to your unplugging! I, for one, salute you for setting some boundaries that include your self. Others could learn from this too. Maybe even your more extroverted friends. Maybe?
@Rita
Yeah it just seems like dead time would be universally needed!!! Like does anyone NOT benefit from time alone or say a camping trip away from gadgets.
🙂
Lunar,
You are probably right. It is possible that for some types the unplugging thing would not reveal to them the immediate benefits, because they struggle with being alone and facing themselves. For these folks, if they are not being seen, heard, and experiencing a fast paced life in the active and reactive “real world” – they don’t exist. Some people seem to be wired towards an external source of constant distraction from themselves. Still, I believe in the long run most people would benefit from downtime to plug into something essential. I get that this is a scary thing to some who may equate a bit of isolation with almost a death state. Running, running, always running in circles from themselves seems for some almost a survival strategy. I’ve known a few of these. Their suffocation desperation is palpable and coming from them. Their need for talk, action, people, and even chaos to avoid being alone is sad and also stifling to me.
@Rita totally agree. Actually I was being a bit HAPPY when I wrote that… like yey being introvert:)
I agree though that it’s actually a bit scary for extroverts sometime so maybe they can go group camping:) For all the introvert challenges, I do love being okay with being alone. It seems like an amazing gift that is helpful in midlife for example. A midlife crisis for an extrovert seems scarier??
I know an isfj who is very afraid of being alone. Even for one hour. That is extreme though.
That is extreme. ISFJs are very up close and relationship oriented. They seem the most likely type to nurture dependence and engage in enabling behaviors. That drive or need to be needed seems intrinsic to some of them. I see them often in caring professions (nursing, elementary and preschool teaching etc.) and they are seemingly some of the sweetest types, except I see a lot of passive/aggressive engagement between them and others who are their peers. They are deferential to authority and nurturing of the downtrodden or vulnerable. Maybe I’m wrong and I do know they are not all like this, but for every gift there is usually a countering defect. In matters of organizations, some of the nastiest most underhanded and poisonous tiffs have been in the domains of nursing, teaching, and those who care for those with special needs or the elderly. They love to point out petty mistakes that others make, often to others behind their backs. I believe hospitals, schools, and nursing homes are places where you will find these seemingly humble self effacing types. The old saying that “nurses eat their young” is well known in the medical community. It seems quite true.
Thanks Rita! 🙂
Yeah, everyone benefits from some introspection.. Extroverts more so.. Their aux functions are introverted after all and the more time they’ve spent in their own heads the wiser they appear to be.. Probably makes their extraverted ids calm down too.. I wonder what an extraverted id feels like..
“Many INFJs consciously will go out of their way to not project an image of niceness or harmony with others.
Why?
Partly as a form of revenge I suspect.
But, also, partly because they know how capable they are of doing just that – “being nice”.
And this don’t gel too well with Ni truthfulness.”
So on point..
And you’re right about hurting with psychological awareness when hurt.. It’s something i think would get toned down if doormat Fe didn’t allow people to walk all over Fi id.. It’s turning the knob till we’re tuned into the form of Fe that works for us individually that’s important i guess..
Thanks Blake! This was so much fun 😀
Thank you! You were rocking the comments!
Thoughts and feels:
I find these games interesting, but also sort of alienating. I have a deep compulsion toward categorization systems, but quite often end up feeling alienated by them because very smart people can disagree themselves into fractals about what should go into what box, or even what the parameters of the box are. At a certain point, when I’ve read enough people arguing their case, I would be willing to agree that so-and-so is a starseed from the 9th dimension. Everything begins to make sense even as nothing makes sense!
So I often wind up in a place where categorization based on rapid, intuitive (not in the Jungian sense necessarily) snapshots of a thing still hold value for me, but the attempts to break it down into an algorithm no longer make much sense to me and start to seem like you can argue anything about anything, even though you would still say – well, this person as a whole is clearly different than this other person as a whole. So the asserted components that meld to make the whole – even as the whole is still valid – start to seem, hmm, shaky to me. The parameters of the components start to seem so flexible as to not really be validly described as separate values that hold some kind of cross-subject reliability to me.
There is something I’m reaching toward but can’t find, about whole-to-parts, vs parts-to-whole. I feel more able to understand in a useful way the whole of something than I find it useful or even maybe desirable to start breaking the whole into component parts. At that point I often find that a discussion loses me. In this sort of case, if people are saying – well, this thing that doesn’t look like common asssessment of [function] is actually definitely [function], I wind up wondering what the point is of describing wholes as components of parts, if the world tends to break out into smaller groups of people who are tribally agreeing on components?
eg, if you taste some soup, and one person says “this is the flavor profile of this soup, I have a chart” and another person says “that is fundamentally incorrect, THIS is the flavor profile of this soup, and each chart is breaking the complex and perhaps not actually separable flavors of the soup into separate – but maybe thought-experiment-fiction – compounds that are not necessarily objectively measurable, nobody is running a spectrometer on the soup sample. It is based on the individual person’s sense of that soup. But isn’t their individual sense of the soup heavily subjective? And where I would say – yes, your individual sense of the soup (or of the chord of a personality or whatever) can only be accurate as a description of your experience of a thing (soup, person), I’m less confident about our collective ability to agree on objective or externally verifiable component flavors (personality notes, etc).
These are just my thoughts – I see that other people are having a different experience here. THAT IS OKAY! I frequently wrestle with how I can understand a system of thought when I don’t have the same perspective as some others on elements of the system and there is a sort of certainty that there is just one way to view things.
One seeks certainty and is ambivalent about it. Disaster!
I hear ya. This is a crazy mad endeavor we are engaging in. Sometimes the absurdity of it strikes me acutely.
And that’s about the time I go take a break and chill out from all this reductionist behavior.
Yes, people can be typed into x, y, or z category.
But, they also so much more than the sum of their parts. They are more than a type.
And its a bit maddening to continually be breaking people down into types.
Yes, it’s alienating.
It’s distancing.
Hey SeeTheElephant, I see your point, but I think typology would be much more consensual and palpable in real life than here, because in real life things are clearer. If you and I disagree on typing a friend of ours, that can easily be checked and solved, which is something that can’t happen when typing famous people through internet. Jung typed himself as Ti-dom, but most contemporary typologists type him as Ni-dom: I mean, how can we know? I’ve never talked to him. Yes, he gave interviews, wrote books and so on, but the point is that we’ll never know for sure, and I don’t think it makes any difference. Typing should be more reality-based if we really want to grasp the subtleties in the system, and only personal contact can give that deeper look.
***
I’ve come to the conclusion that typing is very dangerous (in the sense of an all-encompassing worldview that is supported in typology community), because essentially it’s based on the acceptance of a split being. It’s like “well, this is my ego-orientation, this is my auxiliary function, that is my tertiary and that is my inferior process, therefore, it’s fine to hold it that way, it’s just who I am”.
Hands down, the jungian cognitive theory is brilliant, specially because it works (and sometimes it’s just frighteningly scary). I’ve been typing people informally for the past 2 years and it never failed: everytime I broke a person’s code, bam, it’s like a crystal-clear comprehension of their internal and external processes.
But we cannot, as individuals, keep containing ourselves within our personality types, because as Jung stated, it has nothing to do with destiny: it’s just a system of “preferences”, or tendencies. We cannot define ourselves by preferences: otherwise, there’s no possibility of integration and synthesis. I could be lied in my bed for the whole day just daydreaming and changing my internal landscapes, but I won’t do it. In fact, I could be daydreaming even doing other stuff (like taking a bath or eating), but what’s the point of indulging into my cognitive preferences? That’s a rather shallow perspective of life, and I’m interested in a developing myself as a whole rather than a sum of parts.
I’m not an INFJ, finally I got that clear in my mind. I have INFJ preferences, but I’m not bound by it. I can do it differently even if it feels weird or unnatural, because there’s still a part in me that is free. The ego structure is not a reality. It’s just a dream, an illusion.
Obviously this is a very controversial opinion. I think most of the people feel somewhat caged, and when they find systems like MBTI (or psychoanalytical charactereology, or astrology) that seeks to explain and validate their split tendencies, they just surrender to it. When I was younger, I was fine to just accept that I was detached from reality: I loved to give form to these images through writing. It felt so natural and I was better at this than anybody I knew. But nowadays, I don’t want to indulge in my symbolic deep comfort zone which feels natural and good. I want wholeness and balance, and I’ll dig to the deepest hell of extraverted sensation to find my anima. It’s the hero journey.
@SeeTheElephant
Yes, aaah! What are we doing here? I one time thought how strange it would be for one of these famous people to stumble upon one of these analyses of them… Sigh.
Sometimes the whole thing can literally make me feel ill… But there is some compulsion there. Oh no. Why?
Well we each must have a reason. In my case, it is that literally I am always thinking about various people and trying to imagine what it must be like to be them. And why is that? No idea. But I cannot turn it off. And there is no goal there. It’s pure imagination exercise. So mbti is like helping me have language to help with all the vibes reception. I know it’s less about personal growth for me than this curiosity about types…. And sometimes getting into the functions too much just destroys essence.
Understanding comes and goes but seems to increase overall.
I am curious what other people’s motivation is.
Lucas what you just wrote is really true. I don’t see it as a way of putting people in a box at all but rather as a way to grow, to understand why I developed certain behaviours, how my childhood and relationships affected me, and to try and see this in other people. I no longer shame myself for things, I understand people’s behaviour without judging them so hastily, I have forgiven people who I had been in conflict with.
What I love about this theory is the simple language it gives me to talk about mine and other people’s patterns of behaviour. I knew nothing about psychoanalysis or Jung before finding out about MBTI, I feel the way the functions are explained are an ideal and very understandable way of getting involved.
I see these labels as really empowering actually. And I think they are both real and an illusion. They are real because there are reasons why we have these preferences, they’re not arbitrary, they are patterns that have arisen from real events in our lives which is important to recognise and respect. But also an illusion in the sense that we’re not bound to them, they don’t have to define us, especially if they are expressing negatively, and the more knowledge we gain of them the more control we have over how much we are defined by these preferences and patterns, we can use them to our advantage.
And it is kind of alienating, there has to be a balance between using it to understand and using it obsessively as a kind of hobby, I think I went through a phase of that and became alienated for a while, becoming too detached and just analysing people and myself back and forth.
It’s just fun to take things apart and put them back together. That’s why I do it. Parsing information and seeing the network of it is my hobby.
I find it kind of funny you guys kind of feel guilty or have an existential crisis over this, but maybe it seems too easy to mistake the category for the person.. as if you are sucking the humanity out of them.. deconstructing them, if you will.
I kind of see it opposite, as I fill in the category or system with human elements/anecdotes and enjoy seeing it come alive, so it brings me great joy/amusement to see something work. 😀
I do understand that getting pedantic and stuck on semantics and definitions gets really tiring (except for say.. INTP lol), so take a break and pull back to try to see the bigger picture again. People and their motivations and cognitive paths are interesting/perplexing and therfore we’re studying it with interest.
This guy is supposedly an INTP and reminds me of St. Vincent both style and mimic-wise
http://www.google.com.tr/search?q=david+byrne&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch
St.vincent does not havr the self-conciousnesd of an IxxJ.
IxxJ typing is off the mark.
Out of curiosity, how do you understand “self-consciousness”? If you mean self-awareness, which INxJs have a lot of, she has it in spades. She knows herself and her own workings very well.
If you do mean self-consciousness, as in the sort of painful hyperawareness of being that comes with social anxiety, I wouldn’t say she lacks that either; it’s just that she might not be showing it the way people often think of “self-consciousness”. She doesn’t seem particularly at ease in a lot of her interviews; she’s guarded and wary, which often means cautiousness. So, it’s not so much that she has no self-consciousness; she’s just choosing not to present anxious aspects of it.
Or may not have any. Maybe she really ISN’T self-conscious, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t an INxJ. From what I’ve seen, when an INFJ has passed a certain threshhold of caring what people think about them, they can present with a very chilly, distant ease to people they don’t care about.
@Wendy
Yes the sort of painful hyperawareness and the perfectionistic tendencies.
Yes as they age, IxxJs ease up a bit become more ExxPish.
Still, she looks “too” comfortable with herself for an IxxJ in her photos:
https://www.google.com.tr/search?biw=1024&bih=653&tbm=isch&q=annie+clark+young&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC-Oj78NLNAhVI7hoKHSOmAPgQhyYIHg
and she does not look like an extravert therefore she must be an IxxP.
If INFP is out of the question, my guess would INTP (which would also mean she would be an enneagram 5 probably).
Her style reminds me of David Byrne (who is also an INTP according to some MBTI enthusiasts)
https://www.google.com.tr/search?biw=1024&bih=653&tbm=isch&q=young+david+byrne&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB7fPF8dLNAhUH2xoKHYrYAF4QhyYIGw
@fbag
I think just typing someone based on their “look” or self-confidence is a mistake.
Besides that, she definitely has artsy vibe that INFJ could display, so I don’t get what you’re getting at. Not all INFJ are uncomfortable with themselves and their image. In fact, I’m sure a lot of them are very at ease with or willing to project the “image” they have cultivated–which seems pretty particular with her. She has crafted a kind of porcelain aesthetic.
Maybe you are just bad at reading people. lol
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d0/11/d7/d011d711da7051de645c797096a94b7a.jpg
“Judging someone’s type just based on their look is a mistake.”
*fbag posts something purely based on their look*
Hmm. Yes. Amazing.
@prax
Why do you resort to condescension?
You already posted about it, but Clark collaborated on album with Byrne between Strange Mercy and her eponymous album. If we proceed from your assumption of Byrne being INTP, then it’s likely that their co-operation helped Clark get in touch with her tertiary Ti. This would explain their seeming similarities; an INFJ projecting the image of Ti would look similar to an INTP just being themselves.
But the question at the heart here isn’t what type Clark looks like, it’s what her dominant function is. One of the things that caught my eye was was this quote of hers:
“The teetering in the music, the splotches, I put that in because that’s how I experience life. ”
Specifically, this is pretty big part of dominant Ni. Ni moves from realisation to realisation, remembrance to oblivion. Things and ideas swirl in the subconscious, emerging and submerging, combining and separating. In fact, I find that her music video for Birth in Reverse is one of the best visualisations I’ve seen of the function. Here, take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAdARF4rGcQ
Dusk and dawn coexist, and Clark is simultaneously a cosmic rock goddess and a flesh puppet. It’s pure Ni.
Haha! Why indeed!
Think aboots it.
Is it because you are just a bright innocent soul whose heart of gold only desires to crush her enemies?
Yes! Doesn’t that make you happy? I know it does me! 😀
It would if I were a xxTP type.
@fbag
Why do you say that? I am sure INXJ types would find it really amusing too .
Maybe your typing will be the clue to why you want to think Clark is INTP or whatever.
I just know she probably ain’t INTJ because that’s not the INTJ flavour of motivation=>cognition=>structure=>product as far as I am concerned.
Desire to crush enemies and coming on top is not an IxxJ motivation.
INxJs are system builders and ISxJs are system upholders. Their focus is on optimizing the system and maintaining the system, respectively.
Getting satisfaction from competition, adversity, crushing enemies and coming on top are IxTP (and perhaps ExTJ) type of motivations. It resembles the adversity between L (INTP) and Kira (ENTJ) in Death Note. They live for the challenge and rush of victory.
I have a post awaiting moderation, which when released could help with identifying my type.
@fbag
You are so far off the mark with this reading of INxJ!
What a terrible conversation!
Why off-the mark? Inform me.
Damn, what the hell? 🙂
http://www.themortonreport.com/uploads/pics/d-byrne-st-vincent.jpg
http://filtermagazine.com/index.php/exclusives/entry/filter_49_david_byrne_st._vincent_songs_of_ourselves/
When did you discover each other’s music?
Annie Clark: I first heard David’s music in a 1985 classic called Revenge of the Nerds, which includes [Talking Heads’] “Burning Down the House.” That movie was a big staple of my childhood. It was probably a little inappropriate for us, but we didn’t have a lot of supervision. And my sister had [Talking Heads’] Remain in Light, which she would spin on the record player constantly.
David Byrne: They couldn’t make that movie now, because the nerds aren’t underdogs anymore. Now it’d be Revenge of the Jocks.
Clark: I’m sure the jocks are still winning somewhere; definitely in the high schools of the world.
Byrne: I heard Annie’s music right after her first album came out. I bought the record, liked it, saw her when she was performing at the Bowery Ballroom and that was it. I liked what she was doing and thought the songs were really good; always slightly disturbing.
Definitely NOT INTJ. With INTJs you see it in the eyes. Annie reminds me of my INTP mother….well developed Ti I guess.
As an INTJ I would not have presented the art in the same way. The mechanical robot of it all is too overdone to the point of not being artistic. Kind of disaapoinnting for me. Yes supressed Fe. No Fi. Points out dreary world but that’s it…doesn’t really go deeper in that video. Just let’s you stay in that dreary state forever. Overplayed, overdone, not enough subtlety to play with.
Interesting post…I’de agree…its pretty clear how lots of women (especially in the United States) dont use Fe these days….they purposefully dont use it…the stone cold female is really prevalent in lots of younger American girls..I have a friend that calls it the ‘stone cold slut look’…pardon my french…but basically lots of younger girls are over sexualized and arent as receptive as women of the past
@Em
Clark: “I … tend to be … cerebral and … in my head most of the time.”
Clark: “[Playing the guitar is] the best thing. It’s always a balancing act, inviting in the chaos, the variables, and then managing them.”
Rolling Stone: “In conversation [she is] wry, erudite and free-associative.”
The Guardian: “[She is] coldly cerebral … and … clever.”
Matt Fink: “[She is] singularly idiosyncratic. … Clever, literate, and almost self-consciously cerebral.”
‘I was just as into the politics as I was into the music,’ says Clark, ‘maybe even more. It was tough and confrontational.'”
The Telegraph: “Clark’s clothes may be loud … but, temperamentally, she is quiet and precise.”
Rolling Stone: “[She is] the smartest indie-rock star of her generation.”
These all might be Ti-dominance coupled with Ne.
I can never relate to indie songs because to me they feel like they lack structure and harmony. I think that is due to most indie composers being INxPs, and there’s a certain anarchist, nihilist and deconstructivist element to the INxP temperament and style. They do not want to follow or create order, they want to destroy it and create chaos (or freedom from a different perspective).
INxJs try to create and optimize harmony and structure rather than dissolving them and ISxJs want to maintain that. I wish I knew a true INTJ artist. I presume their style would create a new optimized “form” to the existing forms in music.
Her songs to me feels like a garbled mess and her singing style is monotonous like she’s reading a poem, making weird high and low pitches every now and then. I get the same monotonous feeling with Leonard Cohen.
That high and low pitched style reminds me of Imogen Heap (ENTP), though I can relate to her songs more:
The closest example that depicts true INFJ female demeanor and mimics is I guess Helga from the Vikings series. Please note the variety of expressions (Fe) on her face and compare that to Annie Clark’s lack of facial expression:
https://38.media.tumblr.com/bdba4a8c0dfb67ce343122b5057364a4/tumblr_nk3a23dpQ71u1sgm6o3_250.gif
http://31.media.tumblr.com/9afe47cfcfcacd8070eef5f9175e7481/tumblr_nkrryqnVX51tdy0nco1_500.gif
http://38.media.tumblr.com/0351384fb856b9e0c4ef80a40bebfd71/tumblr_nl1p9wTk2J1rdpvtqo2_500.gif
https://sandyquill.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/helga-angrb-and-ragnar.gif?w=829
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOKqjhpfeAI (Floki is clearly an ENTP by the way)
@ fbag
you said, “I wish I knew a true INTJ artist. I presume their style would create a new optimized “form” to the existing forms in music.”
Like the Blakes post says…”Watch Brian Eno sometime in various interviews. He is a definite INTJ musician and composer and he is also has a long history of production.”
I’d have to agree…father of ‘ambient’ music afterall….he basically created his own genre-a structured one at that.
What I find really fascniating is I’m an INFJ and I’m drawn to INFJ and INTJ artists quite frequently…like I never really got into St. Vincent, but I knew about her and listened to some of the music and sort of just instictivly ‘knew’ her sound and or what she was trying to do imo.
What I’m getting at is were probably all attracted to qualities of other types of course, but to be drawn to such exclusive artists for certain reasons I find really compelling. To me being INFJ I’ve always felt the message is important (as well as the MUSIC of course)…but the message the artist is portraying will really really make me invest time in listening to them. YOU WANNA BE PART OF THE MUSIC BASICALLY. To me Brian Eno’s music HAS NO MESSAGE….its very interpretatvie and or highly vague…you can insert your own ‘feelings’ into his songs if you want. Its ‘robotic’ in its own way. I’ve listened to Eno for many years now and I love the simplicity he creates…its really redundant simplicity at times, but very ‘freeing’ also. I find ironic that Eno attempts to create an ‘organic’ sound when he does it in such a way that erases all ‘organic’-ness involved. Its very mechanical.
But like to me…I dont know if these guys are INFJ or not, but muscians like Xavier Rudd and Matisyahu to me personally have a bigger message and they attempt to epitomize themselves as the message…they seem like INFJ’s.
When the artist ‘becomes’ their message to me that feels like something an INFJ would do….the message itself doesnt always have to be the same message, but simply from a symbolic point of view. I love most all genres, it just depends. I only listen to reggae on occasion (the two artists I mentioned are world / reggae) but those ‘vibes’ help me when I’m down I guess….feel good vibes. Reggae is really about cheerying yourself up.
Anyways interestin gpost…kind of shows how ‘diverse’ human behavior is.
@Sky
I don’t think Brian Eno is an IxxJ.
https://www.the-pool.com/article-wheel-images/arts-culture/music/week-38/monday/todays-programme-gettyimages-110261951.jpg
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/music/2016/01/05/brian-eno-1973-xlarge_trans++I7iKS0Fh53-csfDLqIVB1uzIOVgw3153Txf-7xlA2_I.jpg
http://thegreatwhitedope.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/brian-eno.jpg
His style reminds me of late David Bowie:
http://www.philosophyforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/CYvJL_8VAAAOg4E.jpg
http://www.brooklynvegan.com/files/img/as/eno-bowie.jpg
Also in this photo he looks very much like
http://hilobrow.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/eno-brian.jpg
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/9/9f/Elrond_of_Rivendell.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130202120854
Hugo Weaving
http://www.councilofelrond.com/wp-content/uploads/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/cast/nonlotrrelated/hweaving/nonrelhugo005_lipstick.jpg
I think Brian might be another IxxP type. Probably INxP, like David Bowie.
@ Sky,
Some people think she is an INFP too. So in answer to someone’s conjecture about Bjork’s type, here is what he had to say:
“As for Bjork, she is not an INFP in my book, so, I can’t agree with you there. To me, she is an enneatype 8 ENFJ type. Spunky, menacing, and very daring in her emotionalism and phrasing – the way she uses her voice. INFPs never have this level of punch to them.
However, Bjork is a triple Scorpio (Sun, Moon, and Ascendant), which may account for her Fi impression. Scorpio is the foundation sign of Fi. But, she is definitely not an Fi dominant type. Her Ne is coming from her ENTP id. All ENFJs are ENTPs at the core. Which is why many of them have an extremely good sense of humor and irony, while, at the same time, being able to project an image of danger and the unknown (Ni auxiliary). They often move between humor and danger quite facilely. Whereas, ENTPs do not come off as dangerous at all. Except in a cartoon sense. No Se.”
I am an odd INFJ if what you say is true. I have no real affinity for her style.
Whoops. “He” was meant to be Blake. As in, he who writes stellar articles about type and let’s his readers wander and conjecture their way through the maze. I had his name typed in, but accidentally must have deleted it when I went poking around for his comments on Bjork.
Whats the deal with Bjork?
Is she an INFJ or what?
It seems like EVERY INFJ i come across ‘loves’ and or has listened to Bjork at some point in time. Like why would this be? I still find her really really intriguing and listenable…I simply dont understand the fascination the INFJ community has with her is all. Is it cuse shes highly symbolic and interpretatvive?
@Sky
I think she’s an IxxP type but can’t discern exactly.
Blake maintains Bjork is an ENFJ.
“Her songs to me feels like a garbled mess and her singing style is monotonous like she’s reading a poem, making weird high and low pitches every now and then. I get the same monotonous feeling with Leonard Cohen.”
Everything about what you said here reminds me of Joanna Newsom-prolly an INFJ
@Sky
her style is similar to Bjork’s. And I kinda get xSFP vibes from her.
Leonard Cohen’s monotonous sound is like a warm bath of familiarity instantly, for me. I don’t know his type, but his songs felt like “I know this” from the get go. Yet, like dejavu, I had never actually heard them before. Best melancholy experience ever. I hear people say his songs are depressing and boring. I love them absolutely! Is he an INFJ? I think maybe so.
Yeah its tough to say man, some these musicians are insane..like…you really gotta notice the nuance differences (if any) to really figure out whats going on…
Why “S” though?
To me it seems like hard Ni types try to ‘replicate’ S functions in themselves because the function is so weak….for example the artist I mentioned – Xavier Rudd – the dude ‘seems’ like an “S” type, but real S types dont try so hard to ‘seem’ S if that makes any sense?
Basically real S and especially real P types are so go with the flow that they dont have to ‘fake it’. You can kind of tell when a J type is trying to act like a P or when an N is trying to act like an S. Like for example J types are inherently more ‘forceful’ in conversations…even really subdued J’s…they tend to want to dominant a conversation…even if they are introverts a J will somehow in their own way ‘forcefully’ force their idea onto the conversation. A P doesn’t do this…a P type could care less whats being discussed imo…they simply embrace whatever the situation is in the moment. And vis a vis with N and S also….
INFJ’s imo (since I am one I think I have a somewhat clear perspective on this or at least hope I do), but I think alot of INFJ’s try to conquer their shadow S and P and so they do odd things which most natural S or P’s would never do…i.e. never wear socks. Like for example an INFJ is so overly conscious of self and surroundings and their environment if they really desire to ‘conquer’ their S or P so to speak, they will do so in little ways…for example they will obsess with food in one way or another…the taste and texture will be extremely important…or they will embrace ‘nature’ and open themselves up to literally ‘feeling’ their surroundings….
This is in high contrast to a natural S or P type…both of which will either ’embrace nature’ or ‘go with the flow’ in a way which appears to be scattered an unorganized…a J type always has ‘order’ even if their ‘order’ appears to look like disorder. In the case of INFJ’s even those INFJ’s which appear to be totally scattered and or attempt to ‘go with the flow’ are very very very much attempting and or creating their OWN personal ‘order’.
This imo would be untrue for a P and or even a S type. A P type is so go with the flow naturally that they do not have to generate any order at all. Now if one is talking of a S AND a P type you essentially have what many INFJ’s try to ‘conquer’ subconsciously…i.e. their shadow. Many INFJ’s try to provoke and or ‘experience’ many S and also P traits…basically an INFJ will try really hard to LOOK like a P or an S…even though this is still part of their structured order in their psyche.
As far as Bjork goes I have no fucking clue….like to me she seems like a potential INFJ…the reason I say this is J and P are so insanely different….a P is HYPER go with the flow….like a P type basically could give a shit in most situations….whereas a J type more or less HAS to have some structure of some kind. Bjork seems like INFJ to me simply because she is so obsessed with a ‘certain’ (even though vague) sound. Like imo J types are more ‘musical’ and or attempt to play musical instruments for than P types….not to say P’s DONT or whatever, simply that the nature of an instrument in and of itself lends itself to J types. A J person follows some kind of ‘rules’ and or structure….P types are normally to relaxed to focus and zero in on an instrument…now before you freak at what I’m saying…I know theirs many P types who are musicians…INFP’s are some of the best musicians out there…what I mean is a J musician and a P musician approach their instrument very differently. I’m not trying to get into some big ass discussion about P’s are ‘better’ or more ‘technical’ than J’s or vice versa…I could care less either way and I think both are equally capapble of being ‘technical’ and or hyper talented in their craft. The point I’m trying to make is a simply that P and J musicians approach the music much differently. J’s are concerned about the ‘structure’ of the song…nay….the structure of the album…nay…the structure of them self…the music to them represents a sort of overarching theme to them-self…the music puts ‘pressure’ on the J type for betterment and or self-improvement…a P type imo (I’m not a P i dont know though I suspect) that the P type does not feel the inherent pressure of the musical creation…i.e. the music does not define their existence…its an expression of their existence…very very similar modes for each of them, yet slightly different…imo the J musician their music defines them in some kind of categorical way, whereas the P musician the music expresses their existence and is part of them thus shaping them in the process.
Basically really the point I was trying to make here though is that INFJ’s will fake P and S traits in an attempt to ‘conquer’ and or manifest their shadow functions. You dont see ‘P’s or ‘J’s acting naturally the same ways that J’s do. Like I already said, for example an INFJ may never wear shoes (like Xavier Rudd) even though a real S/P type may not naturally wear shoes and never think about it the N/J type consciously makes the decision to NOT wear shoes in order to feel more S/P.
@Sky
I think Xavier’s an ENFJ.
http://www.singinglamb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/xavierrudd4.jpg
http://innocentwords.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/XavierRudd.png
https://mountainx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Simchock-20150509-4492-web-1100×732.jpg
https://cdn-az.allevents.in/banners/54e6f4f1b0fa6a034ce91dc7a52c5094
Personally I find these type of songs empowering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD8v-goYl0E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8foTMjFqIk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-0r4jftWA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkEY9M5NPpM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBBXRQHKFcE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbYua4F1trc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m65jhGwtWrg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Pi-vH47l8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9HNpyiT-JA
In most of these songs there’s this loneliness, sorrow, despair and also strength, vigor and a hope to find a better tomorrow (reach an ideal, perfection, peace), which moves and builds up towards a peak and majesty as the song progresses, like silence before a storm.
Also note that these are quite harmonious and structured songs.
Also like this song as well, though I guess it’s an ENFP song 🙂
@Rita
Can’t exactly guess Leonard Cohen’s type yet. But he definitely looks like Dustin Hoffman and Al Pacino. So whatever their type is, Mr.Cohen’s type is possibly correlated with theirs.
https://rockhall.com/media/assets/inductees/default/leonard-cohen.jpg
http://rymimg.com/lk/f/a/e1375dc8e51be036a970513074e07e86/907095.jpg
http://pepesnonsmokingpartytimelounge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Leonard-Cohen.jpg
http://2gz2kk33tiykcztlb46pw3nv.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/lcblowingsmoke.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Dustin_Hoffman_-_1968.jpg
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/09/21/sunday-review/0921AGING/0921AGING-blog427.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/56/34/42/563442079ec0b9d57086562a03dfa1d2.jpg
http://img0.ndsstatic.com/wallpapers/cbce22d3d136f70c0c1c04b1acb6dcfc_large.jpeg
https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb7p6lAYqD1rc5un6o1_500.jpg
Al Pacino’s eyes carry Se-aggression. I guess he’s an auxiliary Se type. ISxP.
Cohen and Hoffman don’t have Se in their eyes. They are “softer”. Hence Cohen might be an INFP and Dustin Hoffman might be an INTP (though Hoffman might as well be a J not certain). Just wild guesses.
@Rita
yo hey, you make some points…not to sound like an ass, but I think we should discuss the topic at hand-namely MBTI. I’m ALL for bringing in other variables (ASTROLOGY, NUMEROLOGY, ENNEGRAM, etc) but to form ALL of those different personality studies together is very very difficult to do. I think this site (and or ‘Blake’) does a pretty fuckin amazing good job at combining these seemingly different categories and while since I’m INFJ and WOULD LOVE to discuss and or use my Ni pattern making decision process more and discuss the astrology functions and ennegrame of these artists I dont think its applicable to the conversation. Basically to throw in other factors seems superfleous when we havent even totally figured out the MBTI functions involved…thats really all I’m sayin.
But RITA dear…yeah sweetheart, you make some good points…you said Blake is sayin shes an ENFJ…I can see this…although I dont see the ‘E’ qualities…
I say this simply because Extroverts by and large (especially ENFJ) have like this inherent need to be around people….simply put they are more or less ‘retarded’ in my book. Sorry to say it, but I think most Extroverts are simply fuckin retarded. Like to ‘need’ another humans approval before you act or even think is to me plain idiocity. I’m simply drawing conjecture so no need to freak out, but simply put most E types aren’t ‘dumber’ they just need reassurance first…..even the most dependent Introvert will still make up THEIR MIND in some way shape or form…an Extrovert CANT and or WONT do this…some subdued E types ar every very good at developing ideas that most people never come up with, but that said Extrovert still wants approval in some way shape a form….most Introverts could give a fuck about havig the ‘mob’ approve of their idea.
Regardless I can ‘see’ Bjork as ENFJ like you said Blake says. Although to me, it still seems a stretch, I’de say shes ISP before I said she was Extrovert…anyways…interesting discussion regardless.
I don’t think that’s true I actually think it’s the opposite that extrovert’s generally don’t care what people think of them but to an introvert it looks like they do a lot, whereas an introvert really cares what people think but to an extrovert it seems like they don’t. But it also depends on F or T and S or N etc. etc.
I think so much stuff is attributed to types which is so vague and nothing to do with cognitive functions, like how much you care about what people think or how expressive you are with your feelings. And many of the stereotypes surrounding MBTI are very Americanised.
People keep associating Fe with being outwardly nice and people-pleasing but this is not how its defined, that is more to do with being phlegmatic type and culture you were raised in aswell? But people immediately associate it with Fe for no reason. Like St. Vincent talking about her struggle with “wearing a mask” and “being who people want her to be”. This is a struggle that many many types can experience but everyone kept using it to say that she uses Fe specifically as an INFJ? I think anyone especially women can relate to that for different reasons no matter Fi or Fe or whatever. I think this could be an American struggle more than anything? If there’s one behaviour to associate with Fe it would be manipulation. Actually with Te as well but in a slightly different way.
90% of the identity issue stuff that people were talking about to try and see Fe in Annie Clark was actually Ni-Se dilemma, who am I and how do I fit in and what is the world and calling out bullshit etc. It’s really hard to actually find any F T kind of stuff from her because she’s so private and 99% of her interviews focus on her Ni-Se stuff (why did you make the music, who are you, what is this).
Some “I” types…such as ISFJ and ISTJ are very very ‘mob’ focused. Basically these two INTROVERTS are very very much concerned with ‘mob rule’…basically they suck societies dick and or allow events outside themselves to happen. Even though they are BOTH are J and S AND I types they’re functional stack is way fucking different. Blake discussions HOW different these fuckin types are already on this site. But the point is that even these two types are Introverts but more or less wanna be Extroverts…they suck societies dick and the group consensus.
I don think Bjork an Extrovert or ENFJ simply because she seems to not really give a fuck about societiy standards. I realize ENFJ’s are somewhat iconoclasts or whatever, but Bjrok just seems ‘TOO’ ‘OUT THERE’ to be Extrovert…I can think of a many extroverts who are really fuckin ‘out there’ and seem batshit crazy, but for some reason I dont see the E in Bjork…if shes E imo than she MUST also be T….But theres no way imo shes T…shes not a Thinker…shes definitly a “Feeler”…Shes too ‘subdued’ to be Extrovert…like her expression commands weirdness…she desires ‘weirdness’…Idunno I think INFP for some reason…Idunno anymore…maybe ENFJ..I suppose its possible…though E seems so out of place to me for one reason or another….like most Extroverts wouldnt ‘try to hard’;…I hate to say it but Introverts ‘try’ and ‘obesses’ a hundred times more than Extroverts….even if the extrovert is ‘faking it’ (i.e. The Magician in Tarot)…like to me Bjrok seems like the ‘magician’ in Tarot…the bitch basically puts on any mask she wants in some kind of Gemini way and rocks ‘that said mask’…the Magician fools people by making them believe they are something they aren’t…essentially the ‘magician’ in Tarot seems like some ‘GREAT’ GENIUS of a muscian yet is very very limited in actuality and can only ‘show’ you what they want to show you. Idunno…I just dont see the ENFJ….ENFJ’s have a ‘mission’ of some kind (ala INFJ) ENFJ’s have a ‘mission’ they are gladf to show people…even if the ‘mission’ is weird it would still be comprehensibkle….Bjorks ‘mission (or lack there of) is incomprehensible… she appears to have NO MISSION…I mean…I’m more than willing to be proven otherwise….but arent ENFJ’s ‘SUPPOSE’ to have a mission? If this is true what the fuck is Bjorks then?
Bjorks got that Scorpio bullshit goin on…and Scorpios LOVE….FUCKIN LOVE GEMINIS for one reason or another..I’m not sure why…its one of those fucki things on paper that look’s like it WOULD NEVER FUCKING WORK….like SCORPIO AND GEMINI IN LOVE…FUCK THAT…it looks like itde never fuckin work but SCORPIOS and GEMINIS FUCKIN LOVE the fuck out of each other…what the fuck????? I think it must be because both are secretive motherfucks…like Scorpios are clearly the most secretive fucks right next to Capricorns…but Geminis GET AWAY with being secretive because GEMINIS ALWAYS put on another mask…another fuckin costume….Geminis dress up so fuckin much its fuckin embarrassing as fuck to be honest….like CHILL THE FUCK OUT GEMINIS….Geminis try to cover up THEIR OTHER SELF…as if WE ARENT NOTICING…WELL BITCH…any introvert can see right fuckin through you….imo most introverts know what the fuck is going on…to go an play ‘dress up’ like Geminis do is a fuckin goddamn joke…like DONT DO IT SLUTS….and I suspect Scorpios ‘LOVE’ Geminis for this reason, because they are SHOWING THEM what SOCIETY wants to SEE, BUT they ARENT revealing EVERYTHING AT the same time…which EVERY SCORPIO FUCKIN LOVES…because SCORPIOS are insecure motherfuckers they love the idea of being accepted by soecty and having power but not having to sacrifice them self totally to do it…so no surprise
@Lml519,
About infps aspiring to be infjs….
Hmmm. You know…. Ni id explains a certain attraction to Ni in any other type I think. Because Ni id provides a secret drive to keep digging. Ni dominants seem to experience to themselves that they just see the picture. It is a big relief or interesting to be the recipient of Ni finished insights in others when you are secretly constantly “trying to see what you are missing”. It would make you “alert” in their presence. Then what happens from there would depend on many many factors. I think receiving Ni from another type could go anywhere from soothing to slight rubbing to constant mild irritation to unhinged to extreme intrusion. Any time the Ni appears to dismiss something you pride yourself on it will feel worse. If your Ni id has you digging endlessly into F themes and Ni comes and casually tells you you have missed the big picture when all your life you are digging around such issues driven by Ni Id, you will feel competitive but secretly amazed if you can see it is true.
So it makes sense that infps who pride themselves on some of the same broad abilities as infjs would have a really confusing relationship with them. Blake is just brilliant for dissecting it for us so well. I am amazed.
Honestly, it is one thing for us to note some patterns hazily, but to dissect, link concepts, and lay it out like Blake I cannot comprehend…..
None of it can be proven…. But it appears to explain so much. …. This is WEIRD
Anyone think it strange that there are “types”?????????
Oh yes. This makes so much sense, epic analysis! Thank you for another enlightening article, especially coming from a St. Vincent fan. 🙂
Also stumbled upon a quote in this interview and thought I should share since it just pretty much affirmed the truth in your analysis for me: “Clothing may be the least of Clark’s and Delevingne’s differences. “Cara is an experientialist—more feet in the fire,” says Clark. “I’m less so. If there’s a dark room of the subconscious, I want to find it and walk around in it. Sometimes I feel very much in my head and slightly removed from the physical world,” she continues. “For example, I dance onstage, but I don’t dance for pleasure offstage. I’ll be privy to a dance club or something and just be essentially sober and watch things happen. More as a social observer, like an anthropologist. I’m not in the middle of the dance floor, you know?” She pauses. “That probably doesn’t sound like a lot of fun. But I’m having a great time.” (http://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12464/st-vincent-1115/)
The part about the finding the dark room of the subconscious and walking around in it -> what you described about infj hard romanticism/delving into the deepest depths
The part about feeling slightly removed from the physical world – can’t get more inferior Se than that?!