The first thing we are going to want to discuss in any two types that have the same dominant functions is the difference in the auxiliary functions. Makes sense, right?
Well, in this pairing of types, we have the ISTP, who has auxiliary extraverted sensation, and the INTP, who has auxiliary extraverted intuition.
So, what is the difference between these two functions? And what is the auxiliary responsible for? That is a particular key, because a function will manifest quite differently depending on where it is placed as a function in the economy of type.
Briefly, the auxiliary function is actually quite important in a type, and in some ways, more important than the dominant function. The keyword for the auxiliary is Personality, and since many people talk about personality types, inasmuch as we are discussing the personality of a type, the auxiliary is the most important function.
Personality is basically the unity of style of a person. It is the thing that makes all other disparate parts come together in a unity as a projection towards the outside world (even true with introverted auxiliaries).
So, what does extraverted sensation look like as a personality or a unity of style? OK, first thing that pops into my head is Clint Eastwood. Look at pretty much any picture of him, especially a still from one of the many Western movies he was in. That is an ISTP. And what you are mainly seeing when you look at these pictures is extraverted sensation in the auxiliary. Intense, right? Quiet. Austere. There is a stillness and a non-verbal quality to it. Things are being said without speaking. Predominantly, what extraverted sensation is saying is “Fuck with me, and I’ll kick your fucking ass so hard down the block that not only will you wish you had never been born, but you’ll wish that you’re momma had never been born either.”
OK, now scroll on over to a picture of Bill Gates. OK, what are we seeing here? Well, something that is totally not like Clint Eastwood’s look, I’ll tell you that. The dominant impression one gets when looking at a picture of Bill Gates is an impression of geekiness, someone who is not at all aware of their physical aspect, or has the slightest knowledge of how to assume a threatening physical posture. Actually, many of the people that look like Bill Gates probably were subject to physical bullying in school. INTPs are your typical nerdy types, the ones that are so lost in their geek-math worlds that they are completely oblivious to physical reality. Many of them have traits of autism or Aspergers.
No ISTP will ever have that obliviousness to physical reality. They will have the same lack of expression that INTPs have but that is because of inferior extraverted feeling, which they both share.
So, an awareness of one’s body in the physical environment. That is auxiliary extraverted sensation. ISTPs have a gift with this. INTPs have a very large deficit with this.
Athleticism is another breakaway point for the two types. ISTPs are often gifted athletically. INTPs are the type that is most likely to be a total klutz with physical sports. That’s due to their auxiliary extraverted intuition.
What INTPs are really good at using their auxiliary Ne for is in generating new perspectives. Their personalities are quite diffused and all over the place due to their auxiliary Ne. One thing that is great for is entrepreneurial activities. And Bill Gates is a great example of this. It is also good for abstract thinking of an extremely high order. Ti and Ne in combination are very abstract and mathematically genius.
It would be as no surprise that some of the greatest mathematicians and physicists have been INTPs. Actually, the way I see it, INTPs make the greatest mathematicians and ENTPs make the greatest physicists. But, that is another article.
So, in practice it is quite easy to tell the two types apart because of the very different personalities and styles of the two types.
If you want another example of an INTP, check out Stephen Hawking. He is for sure an INTP and a classical example at that. Really smart and cerebral. No ISTP will be confused with him.
OK, now the troubles begin. So we have the two examples of INTPs I just cited, Bill Gates and Stephen Hawking. Both these guys I am nearly absolutely certain, with no reservation, are the classical INTP types. Not gonna confuse them with Clint Eastwood right?
Now enters a little problem called the enneagram to confuse matters slightly. I don’t want to go into what the enneagram is but suffice to say that there are often more than one type of Myers-Briggs type because the type will fall at two, and maybe more, places on the enneagram. In the case of INTPs, I see that there are two types of INTP, one that falls at point 5 on the enneagram, what I would call the classical INTP type. And then there is the one that falls at point 6 on the enneagram, a lighter type of INTP. This type has a more pronounced auxiliary extraverted intuition and the Ti dominance can be harder to see. Because of this, they are often more goofy, quirky, whimsical, and humorous than the type 5 INTPs. But, they ain’t ENTPs, for example.
And here comes the complication. Some ISTPs fall at this point on the enneagram too. At this point, it seems I should get into what exactly point 6 means on the enneagram, but, you know, there is this lovely thing called the internet, and you can just type it into Google and be on your way to finding out. Or if you don’t want to piss off Bill Gates, you could type it into Bing. Whatever strikes your fancy.
Point is that we don’t really need to know much about the point on the enneagram that I’m talking about except to say that both ISTPs and INTPs can fall at that point. What seems more germane is to give some examples of what I’m talking about.
So, some type 6 INTPs:
– Tobey Maguire
– Topher Grace
– Aziz Ansari
Some type 6 ISTPs:
– Carl Jung
– Abraham Lincoln
– Ralph Waldo Emerson
OK, now I see that I am probably causing some controversy here. Many people that know of enneagram would probably put those ISTPs I listed at type 1. I’m also feeling fairly certain that many people will disagree with me typing Jung as an ISTP. And maybe the other guys too.
But, I don’t give a fuck.
I think Jung is an ISTP. Other people think he is an INFJ. And yet others don’t even know who Jung is even though he is behind this whole Myers-Briggs business. Or rather, they may know who he is, but they don’t know who he is. Get it?
Many people that are into Myers-Briggs haven’t even read, Psychological Types, much less anything else that Jung wrote, so how am I to take the whole affair that seriously.
Anyway, Jung himself, considered himself an introverted thinking type. And I agree with that. Though, I don’t think he has auxiliary intuition as he also suggested in his book. He was probably referring to his tertiary function. But, he wouldn’t live to see Isabel Myers create such a thing. Nope, in his book, there were just dominant functions with a hint to an auxiliary function. But, anyone who knows anything wouldn’t class Jung as having extraverted intuition as an auxiliary function. Definitely using introverted intuition (can’t imagine a psychologist that wouldn’t), but not as a dominant function either.
Why?
Because I fucking said so. Have I ever steered you wrong before?
Jesus! I mention the enneagram and Jung and this whole fucking thing gets off track. Note to self. Don’t ever mention Jung and the enneagram in swift succession again.
Man, just look at a picture of a more elderly Clint Eastwood and do the same for Jung, and tell me you don’t see a similar hardness and austerity, yet mixed with benevolence and a sort of halcyon wisdom. That’s ISTP at enneagram point 6. Or if you like, point 1. However, the point is that we ain’t gonna confuse these two guys with Tobey Maguire. That’s what I’m really trying to say.
But, you’re also not gonna confuse Tobey Maguire with Stephen Hawking. I hope. But, they’re both INTPs.
As a matter of fact, ISTPs can go fuck themselves. Adding them in here has made the whole analysis all fucked up. I should have just called this article INTP vs. INTP.
Well, they are their own worst enemies.
Look, the point is that I have a headache and I need to go have a little lie down. That, in net effect, is what INTPs make me feel like.
I mean, try reading some of the shit they write (the type 5 ones I mean). If you don’t feel a splitting headache coming on, you either are an INTP, or you have really strong nerves.
As for myself, I just popped 5 valiums and am on my way to a coma. I hope.
Finally you wrote about ISTPs! Thank you! It’s very interesting, but a bit complicated ) I try to compose the whole picture in my head, so I have some questions. I googled images of Lincoln, Emerson and Jung and noticed that they all have very kind smile (Clint Eastwood is a bit different). Maybe it’s about physiognomy and cliche, but.. Are ISTPs simple, sincere and reliable? Do they have that down to earth wisdom? Do they respect simple work and are eager to self education? If you say that ENFJs are kind of bad boys, may ISTPs be opposite to them? Good guys?
Yes, ISTPs are simple, sincere, and reliable.
Yes, ISTPs have that down to earth wisdom.
Yes, ISTPs respect simple work and are eager to self-education.
Yes, ISTPs are the good guys opposite to the ENFJ bad boys.
I feel like you should win something for that. Nice.
And I would write more about ISTPs but you know how INFJs get jealous when the subject matter strays too far from anything pertaining to them.
But, ISTPs are very commendable types and I by no means wish to imply that they are anything less than sterling in their shiny motives.
Enneatype 6 ISTPs make great statesmen. They have a very stately quality. And they are not at all arrogant about it, just have a sincere desire to do their best for their fellow men. But, they are tough, make no mistake about that. They have goodwill but they will not tolerate corruption or hurting other people. Think justice, principle, capability, independence, truth. Think the halls of justice. How justice is blind. Lady Justice blindfolded and holding her scales. That is such an ISTP archetype. You will find a lot of ISTPs in law enforcement.
Batman is an ISTP.
Some very great writers are ISTPs. Emerson and Jung are two examples. And let us not forget Lincoln. Remember the eloquence of the Gettysburg address? Yeah, INFJs aren’t the only ones who can write so beautifully, insightfully, and with such humanism.
Clint Eastwood has some great one-liners in many of the movies he’s been in. There is one line in the movie Josey Wales where he plays the outlaw (though a righteous outlaw) and he says to his would be attackers, “You gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?”
Nice line. Very ISTP.
Enjoy your articles, but no way is Jung a 6. He doesn’t have any of that background anxiety or over-compensating tough guy stuff going on. No way.
I’d guess he’s a 9/8. Endlessly fascinated with archetypes and the unconscious, yet also earthy – built his own house by a lake, IIRC.
I can see your point about Clint Eastwood. I’d be tempted to see him as 1/9 – stern cold moralist.
Yeah, you might be right about Jung not being a 6 enneatype. Like I said, if he isn’t a six, then I would put him at enneatype 1 w/9 wing. And, if that is the case, then that goes for all the rest of the ISTPs I listed as well because they all share a certain something. Whether, that is due to the enneatype 6 or 1 (or 9) is less clear to me. And also less relevant for the purposes of this article.
The enneagram is trickier and hazier to me, and yet it is more simplistic and stronger in vibration than a Myers-Briggs type. 6 is an enneapoint that I think is one of the more confusing ones (along with enneapoint 2). It seems like a kind of catchall point to me and I find it hard to gain a distinct picture of it from the way it is described in all the books I have read.
Yes, exactly, Jung was intellectual (and mystical) and also earthy. Doesn’t read as INTP or INFJ to me. Jung was a very grounded guy who was open to mystical subjects. He was in the traditional academic environment and did quite well expressing himself through the standard practices and mindset of this environment.
Regarding Clint Eastwood, I don’t think he is completely cold. There is a warmth in him and something very humanistic, but, yes, I could definitely see how most people would regard him as cold. He definitely is capable of (and made a career out of) projecting a hardcore austerity (Se auxiliary) but he is also quite witty, funny, and insightful as well, showing a kind of hangman’s humor about the implacability of the human condition.
I think Eastwood shows an incredible warmth in some of his movies underneath the harsh reality of the conditions that his characters find themselves in. Take the movie, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. I consider that movie a profound meditation on friendship between two characters that would normally be enemies (and are) but are united under a common objective. Eastwood shows a beautiful humanism and commentary on human nature in this movie through his stoic (but not cold) character. Much of the coldness of an ISTP is due to their sense of expediency and sense of prudence, rather than any sincere desire to be so.
great post, as always. it would be very interesting if you wrote a similar one for ENTPs vs. ENFPs (same case of shifted auxiliary / tertiary) … also cause I’m really curious about what you’d write about ENFPs, as some of my best friends fall into that category
I also root for some texts on ESTJs (why are they so much better than ENTJs, for example :))
I’m an INFJ who many INTJ’s mistake for an E or INTP.
Trust me, Jung is an INFJ 🙂
Okay, I’ll trust you if you trust me. So, I’ll believe Jung is an INFJ if you believe that he is an ISTP. Deal? 🙂
What type of INTP is very rational, very detached, cold, and also very determined and can be very tough? Can also lead well when in emergency. That’s my type. I don’t know about enneagrams so maybe there is a number for it. Thanks
I think enneatype 5 INTPs are very rational, detached, and cold when compared to the enneatype 6 INTP who is less rational, more engaging, and less cold. So, those are the only two choices for an INTP as far as I’m aware of. I would have to know more about you before I made any determination that you were an INTP. But, going on those two choices for an INTP type I would say enneatype 5 INTP.
What do you mean by “tough”, “determined”, and leading well in emergency. I think from the latter I would say that a person that is cool under fire or when things get emotional, they stay cool and collected – rational essentially, is what you mean by the leading well in emergencies.
So, there it is unless you can give me more information.
Hi, thanks for the reply. I mean with “tough” and “determined” is I remain detached and unemotional, even in difficult situations. People usually comment that I’m very detached. I thought maybe those traits lean toward one of the numbers more.
Yes, it leads to 5 enneatype.
I was ISTP last time I checked (twice, actually).
I took the same test out of boredom today. It says INTP.
How.
Perhaps you answered the questions differently. That is usually the way you get different test results…
What test did you take? Provide a link to the website. I’ll look at it. It could be possible that the test itself sucks.
At any rate, it is not at all uncommon for any of these personality tests to give different test results depending on the mood of the person answering. These tests rely on self-reporting and self-perception of the taker. I think there should be other tests besides just answering lists of questions. Like putting a person in a situation where they are called to use strong traits of each of the functions. If they excel or fail based on what they can do, then it is much more likely that they would be this or that type.
Anyway, which description did you resonate with more in this article of ISTP vs. INTP?
Sorry, I don’t have any female examples of either type. I’ll have to look into that.
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp = this is the test I took. I took it again today and I am ISTP, again. But it says the ‘s’ is only %1. Whatever that means.
I feel closer to ISTP anyway, since I am also athletic, or I just think I am. Is it possible to be both S and N, or even sometimes S and sometimes N?
But then another test told me once I was ISFP. I’d like to think that was rubbish.
I went ahead and took and enneagram test too; Type 5, or 5w6.
As for females, Scarlett Johansson, maybe? Kristen Stewart also seems to be famously ISTP.
Probaly means the Sensation preference is only 1% stronger than the Intuitive preference since they are often measured in an “either/or” way. So, you either prefer sensation or intuition. One is stronger than the other. So, if you are close on this preference between intuition and sensation, that explains how you sometimes come up ISTP and sometimes come out INTP. That being said, I wouldn’t trust a test to tell you what your correct type is. But, it sounds like you resonate most with ISTP. ISTPs have intuition via their tertiary Ni. Maybe a good way to figure out if you are INTP or ISTP is if you resonate with Ni or Ne the most. ISTP has next to no Ne, but a fair amount of Ni.
However, the most full-proof way to tell a type for me is by looking at and listening to a person.
Yes, those two women you listed could be ISTP women. I think Gwyneth Paltrow is an ISTP. I’m pretty sure about that.
If you are interested I offer type identification for a fee via visual and linguistic methods. Contact me at blake@stellarmaze.com if interested.
One thing is clear though; I am 100% introvert.
Both my 5 mother and my 9 brother are ISTPs – similar but, not, weirdly. Handy, capable, earthy, but also generally goodnatured?
But what I would REALLY like to talk about (being a bossy INFJ type 1) is that the Enneagram and MBTI really are super awesome when used together, in a hugging-type fashion.
I know, here I go complicating things BUT to be more thorough (and dare I say, big picture) – Enneagram is what you do and MBTI is how you do it.
Which is more important? Honestly? i’d say MBTI to the outer world, but Enneagram definitely colors and shifts behaviors. I am a terrible example of a 1, because I am an INFJ. Bossy, but FEELING all the feels. Not the uptight elementary school teacher.
I enjoyed your comment about 2s and 6s being difficult to suss – I agree. But my go-to is if I can’t figure them out? they are probably a 6. But i cheat using my Ni. I find Enneagram incredibly easy to type others – MBTI – way harder. No one would EVER type me as an INFJ, in fact, when i was introduced to MBTI it was by another 1 (who is an ISFJ who believes she’s an INFJ – kill me now) who typed me as an ENFP. (?) (read into all of this scenario, i sure did).
People always see me as an extrovert. I LOVE PUBLIC SPEAKING!! I’m bossy, what can i say :).
Further to my point (assuming there is one in here) I have three 6 friends: ESTJ, ISTP, INFP. How do I know they’re all 6’s? I can tell by looking at their energy in a social context. I can see the split in there attention: 50% on what is happening in the room and 50% on any potential thing that could ever go wrong (twitchy). I can feel that. But let me tell you – they couldn’t be more different at the end of the day due to MBTI. But, still, ugh, so similar. So, when we want SO BADLY to say unequivocally a type is one way or another, there will always another element to consider (the continuum business). When i hear a type 4 INFJ’s express themselves, they seem so much more “INFJ”. I have two friends that are type 9 INFJ’s and when we say INFJ’s are super private – the 9s really are, and me? Not so much: compared to them.
Is this really boring?
Not to me and hey, I’m just going to keep going.
I have wanted to touch on this with you Blake because you really are a ninja – freal – and are giving me the best existential crisis of my life over all – but i REAAAAAAAALLY believe that the freak outs people have over the details of type (which are all RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER) would be reduced if what is most important to the type is considered.
Eg;
Type 1 – being right
Type 4 – being special
Type 9 – peace/harmony
these are still going to influence the ‘how’ we go about doing our things. Certain elements will be turned up loud and others will be shushed, within the same MBTI type.
Everything in context, right?
Love you!
R
I love you too! Let’s have a ninja love-in.
What do you make of Nikola Tesla?
Tesla was an INTJ to the bone. He fits on a continuum with men like Robert Oppenheimer, Howard Hughes, Friedrich Nietzsche – eccentric, reclusive geniuses with a touch of madness. Which sometimes becomes full-blown madness if they can’t find a way to connect with a feeling impulse. But, man, these are some intelligent and capable people while they are in their star.
“you’re momma” should be “your momma”
“Many people that are into Myers-Briggs haven’t even read, Psychological Types,” that first comma shouldn’t be there.
Proofread your articles next time.
Fuck, you.
Grammar Police, nit picking a wee error out of all he wrote is evidence of a small mind, or at best a really bad mood whose owner needs to just crawl into a cave until it passes. At least, pay the man something for his effort and time in writing this. He writes for all of us who are more interested in the content and having an idea exchange. If you can’t offer something of more substantial and helpful value, at least refrain from commenting. Or just go hang out with some tsssking school marm types who delight in splitting hairs over trivialities if that is really your type of thing. I sincerely hope it was just a bad mood that has passed.
Not sure how to go about this… so let’s do blunt. A look from an istp and I’ll wet myself, one of two ways, depending on their intent. I’ve gone on youtube and just watching them I tremble a little inside, and the istp’s will all have this effect on me, even if they appear to be easy going, nice people. It may be to more or less of an extent but it is there. Their words seem to have the potential to hurt more than anyone else’s. There is something…
So, I am writing a character, and my protagonist cannot control her reactions to him, she is like a deer in headlights. I’ve come to the conclusion finally after much deliberation and a lot of help from you, that he must be an istp. One of the clues you gave me was that a tracker would have to have Se in a big way. Your description of Se versus Si for one, was very helpful in deciding which he had and that for these reason’s and the one above, he was far more likely an istp than istj. I knew he couldn’t be an estj.
Curiously, I can ignore an estj, even though they seem to be able to hurt others easily. They can say whatever they want, a jab, and It’ll roll off me like water off a duck. Like I can tell they are full of shit and full of themselves.
So, this isn’t really a question but I’d appreciate a verification, or perspective on why TiSeNiFe might blow an infj away and TeSiNeFi just blows hot air in their face. Not that estj’s are not fucking sharp as tacks. I do respect their capabilities, I just want to spend as little time as possible with them. Whereas I watch the istp in action and apprehensively swoon. Oh shit. Epiphany. I just realized they can see me.
And lo and behold my Fe and Ni had already written this evidence and I’d not really seen the connections till now. There is also someone else that can see me, or he is istp. I don’t yet know.
Doh. Kind of missed something right in front of me. Estp, similar but more accurate, I think, for protagonist. And upon further reflection, I think I may know and cherish to the end of my days, three Istp’s. If they are istp’s, and they are so very close to me, well, they are blunt and honest, but easy for me to be near much of the time. The effect they have on me is different, knowing them, but still considerable. Ah, so much to learn. But this puzzle is fantastic.
Jung is an Aquarius Rising native with Saturn in the first house. Could this account for the sonewhat austere demeanor and practical edge that leads you to conclude that he was an ISTP? If you read Jung’s writings he exhibits a very irrational and open attitude toward the psychic constructs of the unconscious, a dead giveaway of Ni dominance. When you read Psychological Types, you get the sense that he was trying to appear like an introverted thinker, all the while he’s making up new words, appropriating words new meanings based on his intuitive perceptions, and makes use of fanciful metaphors. His musings on his childhood demonstrate that he felt ripped from reality, his physical body, and had all kinds of “visions” and was preoccupied with his dreams. None of this indicates ISTP modes of consciousness.
Saturn is the taskmaster. It forces you to face difficult realities and ones weaknesses. I’d say first house Saturn can give off “establishment” vibes, perhaps similar to an ISTP. But Jung was anything but a supporter of the establishment. He disdained the materialistic, empirical philosophies of the time, but, like a. Saturnian, had to grapple with and make use of them in order to get his ideas through and impact the globe’s thinking, a driving motive of Aquarians. At core, Jung demonstrated the common traits, struggles, and drives of an INFJ. Here’s a guy who said the whole purpose of life is to kindle a fire in mere existence. Who said loneliness is not having no one about you, but having no one around to express what is really important to oneself. Not really ISTP schtick.
“Jung is an Aquarius Rising native with Saturn in the first house. Could this account for the sonewhat austere demeanor and practical edge that leads you to conclude that he was an ISTP?”
Yes, I think that you are right. I have actually thought about this before – Jung is an Aquarius rising with Saturn in 1st house – and this does equivocate to introverted thinking and austerity and the like.
So, you have made something click for me. Yes, you are right. Jung was an INFJ. Of course he was. Duh.
You have raised an important point about how astrology colors the influence of one’s inborn type, which is what this site is about in large part. Congratulations on your cogent analysis.
Jung was an INFJ who had a lot of introverted thinking due to Aquarius rising and a lot of down-to-earthness in his first house Saturn in Aquarius. He also had a Taurus Moon, which correlates to Si id, which is the natural id position of an ISTP. So, it is things like this that contribute to the emendation of one’s natural type.
So, Jung was an INFJ, a very ISTPish one.
Isn’t Taurus Moon ISFP id? Since it pairs with inferior Te? I guess it’s the root sign of subject-oriented Virgo so, very similar to say the least.
I have a question for you. I’m an INFJ with Aquarius Saturn in my eigth house, inconjunct my Gemini moon in the first house😵. Discovering this has been eye-opening to say the least, as it explains my lifelong struggle with a personal sense of worthiness and my inability to trust people. If you don’t mind, how do you see this arrangement amending my type as an INFJ? Do you have advice for someone suffering from these aspects? The Saturn inconjunction feels like this heavy weight burdening me with endless tasks to fulfill before I can feel worthy… I’m stumped…
Brilliant! Agreed. Except for the astrology bit. I don’t honestly know enough about that, but for the other comments about Carl Jung exhibiting traits very generally uncharacteristic of an ISTP, I totally concur.
I think a really interesting nugget in this puzzle of C. Jung’s type is Emma Jung. From what I have read Emma was an ISFJ and completely enamored with Carl. Now, as Blake has mentioned before each type has its mother type. I did not understand this before, but I have always held ISFPs as one of my favorite types and I am an INFJ. Once I realized ISFP was my mother type this point really intrigued me. Heading back to the Jungs, however, we see that ISFJ is the mother type to ISTP. If Carl Jung were an INFJ who’s astrology had him grow into an extremely ISTP-like figure, it stands to reason that Emma might have seen Carl as something of a son, or child-type. But, since C. Jung was actually simply an INFJ who presented like an ISTP, he was not as much of this son as would initially seem, and in fact was able to wield more control in this relationship and captivate Emma more than the simple ISTP son would. In the end he caused Emma much pain, it would not be surprising an Ni dom would do this to an Si dom. But what’s more to me is the interesting aspect of C. Jung having affairs with younger women seems to indicate him wanting to distance himself from this “half-mother” figure to whom he was married. I think if C. Jung had been a straight up ISTP this relationship would not have worked out as it did. He would likely have been fascinated by her, and she not so enamored, perplexed, connected, yet ultimately not dealing with the beast she thought she was.
Alejandro,
Well, we can’t blame Jung there. Who wants to have sex with his mother? Well, some might if you buy into Freud and Greek mythology, but as a matter of course it is kind of an anti-aphrodisiac, don’t you think? It seems the worst thing you could do to keep eroticism alive to me for both parties. I know this is not literal, but the effect might be the same after a time.
Late to the party. Found this on a random search. I’m an INTP who has been attempting to determine whether I am a 5 or 6 enneagram. I thought I was a 5, but someone more knowledgeable than myself suggested 6. Your article lends evidence to support this.
Also, this may be the most hilarious typology post I’ve ever read. Cheers for that.
O, why thank you.
Hello, I didn’t read the whole thing, sorry. It’s 12:35 am and I’m rather tired, haha. But what I did read and what I could make out through my tired eyes is that I seem to be about half ISTP and half INTP. I’m not really ‘Awesome bad**s Clint Eastwood’ but I’m also not ‘Woohoo! Supergeek Bill Gates!’. I’m not really athletically gifted or talented, but I’m definitely not a klutz or an unhealthy person. I could go on, but I should really be off to bed because I have boring, ridiculous 10th grade finals tomorrow, haha.
Oh, by the way, I’ll probably bookmark this page to read later. I’m not just giving up on this article forever, haha.
Give up now before it is too late!
I’d say INTP then 🙂
And now I understand why you never write about INTPs. I came after reading your INTJ/INTP article on Ti and Te where there was a good 3 sentences about INTPs and a good 3 pages on INTJ stuff.
But why. Are they really just geeks? What is a geek anyway? I came here thinking I was an INTP, and well I probably have one of those blogs that would give you another headache, but I’m pretty good at sports, actually, really good at them. Also how could you have gotten a headache, you only said like two things about the INTP: they can lay upon two points of the enneagram and they are geeky.
Anyway, I came here mostly to give you a hard time for spending all your time writing about INFJs.
Point taken. I should write more about INTPs. Post a link to your blog if you think it would be helpful in understanding INTPness.
About the headache point…well, what can I say, some of the most famous INTPs I’m aware of write so densely in their prose that I feel like I am struggling for air. But, I was sort of just kidding too. Hey, Kant was an INTP and he is considered one of the most important thinkers of modern times. The Critique of Pure Reason is certainly a venerable book. How about Sartre’s Being and Nothingness? I feel like I want to be nothing after I open that book to any page randomly. I don’t know who could get through that book. Yet, it is obvious that Sartre was really, really fucking smart.
But, footnotes, synopsis please.
A geek is someone who is really into something nerdy (like math) but who lacks in the social graces. Another way to put this is Ti dominance with an Fe inferior combined with Ne auxiliary. Ne is nerdy, geeky, goofy, bizarre and so on. But, combined with Ti it is especially out there. Probaly also the most intellectual combination possible. Or Ti with Ni as well, but that isn’t as balanced. INTJ and INFJ have that going in two different fashions. Both of them need Te and Fe to balance that out. INTPs and ENTPs don’t.
Anyway, yes, I see your point. Thanks for giving me a hard time 🙂
You are cute for an ISFJ
I’m an INTP, but I got Style, bro.
I’m a nerd, but I’ve never been bullied. Actually most of my class is intimidated by me.
Apparently I look really pissed off when I’m not thinking about it. And I have the best dark circles from spending all night on the internet.
Could you be an ENTP? Could you would you now?
Haha no. I wish. Too much… awkwardness. And I (hate) dislike people.
Basically I’ve developed a strategy for social life so I don’t come across as a total nerd.
1. Stay in the background. The silent, cool type.
2. Make a devestatingly witty remark when the time comes.
3. Leave as soon as the awkwardness sets in. Return to Internet.
4. Repeat as needed.
I’d love to see some more in-depth discussion of INTPs on this site. I’m one, I dated an INFJ for a year recently and found this site trying to make sense of her. I’m a stupid INTP. I didn’t have the upbringing or motivation enabling me to stick to academics so I work for the family farm. I have 4 INTP friends and wish this whole genius stereotype thing would go away, since we are all in one way or another dropouts from society and not especially Knowledgeable in ways that have value, nor do we produce anything useful or groundbreaking on our own time (God forbid that we’re doing so at work). We are looked upon as strangely aloof/rude losers in the super Sensing-oriented rural culture and generally live off of others to some extent.
There are some funny things here, as in, LOL.
I am a 65 year old female ISTP. I used to be married to an INTP; an INTP who still loves words.
As a young child, he read the dictionary for fun. He finally found his niche in the military translating a foreign language they taught him. When he took the aptitude test for this type of work, the person who scored the test said that he’d never seen a score that high, and didn’t think he ever would again. Today, he does editing of reports for a high security government . . . institution, and has never regretted that he can’t discuss his work with others.
In, “Please Understand Me,” as I recall, one of the descriptive lines for INTPs was that their walls are usually lined with books. This would fit the INTP I know perfectly!
Regarding correcting others’ grammar, this is the type of thing he would likely do also, but it would not have anything to do with bad feelings or a bad mood; on the contrary, it would be more like setting a puzzle straight, with great fun and no ill will intended.
If I correct another’s grammar or spelling, I’m likely to do so with the intention of being helpful 😉
But still I will agree with Richard Feynman, that spelling is just a social convention. . .
What enneagram do you see for Bill Gates? I find him confusing. He looks geeky, awkward, but also seems very outwardly focused, like his energy can be directed outwardly beyond what I realized was possible for intp.
As far as I’m aware, all INTPs are enneagram type 5. I know in this article, I said that I saw another possibility, but, I now recant. More likely that those were INFPs with a pronounced air (thinking) element in their astrological charts.
As far as Bill Gates being outwardly focused, INTPs do have auxiliary functions that are extraverted. I think it is unusual to see an INTP that has as much business savvy as Gates, but, then again, he did get kind of lucky with having the right product at the right time in the market and having the cunning to license it instead of sell it.
However, to me, what else could be Bill Gates be but an INTP? I’ve heard INTJ and ENTJ before and that makes no sense whatsoever. People say, “Well, he’s obviously a judger because of his business acumen.” He just doesn’t fit the mold of the xNTJ types the way I understand them. And Ti dominance is a judging function. I mean, I see what people mean if they had a superficial understanding of the type code dichotomies, then yes, I could see that Gates is a J rather than a P. The extraversion thing I can’t really see. He seems to be the classical case of an INTP that is very Ti-Si, almost more like an ISTJ than an INTJ.
I don’t think Gates is really savvy in any way beyond introverted ways. He has been very savvy about shutting out the rest of the operating system market, but, then again, he didn’t really have much competition and he was in the right place in the right time with the very good idea to license instead of sell the product.
The Windows operating system shows many of the flaws of a Ti-Si looped design – too many things going on with too little integration. The very opposite tends to be true of INTJ type designs. INTJ tends towards minimalism in design such that you would have the fewest things possible with the highest integration between them possible.
Unless, the INTJ were in their deep Ti id loop, in which case, all bets are off. But, still the Si miniatures element would be missing. The thing about INTP (in Ti-Si loop) is they can over-design and engineer the parts to crystalline perfection and skip the very thing the Ne auxiliary would give them – integration between those beautiful parts.
I don’t know, that’s my take on it. I can’t see Gates as anything but an enneatype 5 INTP and a pretty classic one at that. He shows xSTJ features more than he shows xNTJ features, but, I think it’s pretty clear he isn’t any of those. However, since he is showing more of the former, that leans towards INTP in my experience. If he were an ISTP, then, it would be likely he would show a tendency towards xNTJ features over xSTJ ones.
The way he monopolized operating systems …. I am surprised his Fe didn’t stop that. Maybe it is a blindly protective kind of motivation. Too bad. Many intps are amazingly generous of intellectual property and goods, and would make sure people have the most unrestricted access to stuff. (like more into the type of action Louis CK took making tickets online pay what you want kind of thing)
Well Microsoft became a prime example of that bad move and helped motivate people like:
https://www.ted.com/talks/linus_torvalds_the_mind_behind_linux?language=en
thanx for your reply!
Well Lunar,
Bill Gates seems very INTP to me just as Blake said. I had come to that conclusion quite a long while ago without much thought, but it just seemed exactly right. I’m not tooting my own horn here, because I get a lot of things wrong and typing is one of those areas I am often clueless. Sometimes it just seems plain as day and in Bill Gates case it seems so.
Regarding “monopolizing of operating systems” and “energy directed outward”. Couldn’t that be in the first case of being young and being in the forefront of the new with some business accumen. In the later case of growing more competent and confident with Fe. His wife has helped his outward focus quite a lot from what I understand. The INTPs I’ve known have usually seemed to have been very open to influence from their significant others and will listen to them when they would be critical of anyone else.
Brittle and hairsplitting at times but in love loyal and soft hearted and strangely more flexible than anyone would expect with one they find worthy. You are married to one and you probably know more INTPs (other than your husband) than I do too, so I would be interested in knowing if that fits with your observation. Anyway I’ve known a few and am amazed at how well they seem to do at long term one on one romantic relationships once they finally find their way to someone special.
@Rita
Bill Gates doesn’t resemble my intp that much…. that is part of why I am watching more videos of him to see how another intp can look.
My intp isn’t American and who knows how culture influences the Fe development. My intp is absent-minded, very pure and sweet, would struggle with marketing, is very detached from acting in the real world, warm, has this certain kind of cordiality that is always there. He isn’t a “geek” and doesn’t look like one. Tell-tale trait of being an intp is he can’t always read faces well, he won’t know what emotion is on the face or will not understand tone of voice, and can be paranoid about people’s motivations. He resembles Louis CK more than Bill Gates in aura. Even if Louis CK is infp which I honestly just don’t know lol, my intp has something in common with him for his aura.
Bill Gates reminds me of a very dorky prof I had once (who would run around with a dorky gait lol) and who seemed to have an outward attention. It’s long ago so I can’t say if that guy was intp or not.
I saw Bill Gates on Charlie Rose and he has a kind of hard to listen speaking style (where is your point) that does seem intp-ish. That is unscripted so it says a lot. Bill Gates pushed common core, he has that kind of idealism about thinking and learning that intps have.
Yeah… it’s crazy that married to an intp, I can’t tell if Mandelbrot or Gates are intps lol. But I am so bad at typing. It’s a “fruitless” hobby in my case haha.
For Bill Gates I don’t see intj, but was wondering about estj and entj for a while. I thought he was Te more than Ti but never thought I saw Ni. But after Charlie Rose, I can see that he might be an introverted thinker…I just can’t tell:)
An aggressive negotiator based on accounts. But actually I think a leadership position such as CEO is gonna bring out the ugly in an intp. So in a way you’d expect stories. I also read that his parents raised their children to be competitive and had a law career in mind for him (who has a career in mind for their kids???). Gosh I hope I am not quoting bad sources of info. I think intps raised to be Fe-valuing may behave very differently to intps raised to be winners?
@Rita
You mention his wife.
When I saw that on top of Microsoft he was having a Rockefeller-ish type after-career my first thought was alright nuh-uh… this is not an intp. Then I saw his wife in an interview, and thought, well, she is pulling him up…intp is back on the table lol.
Check out the following video where Gates was deposed in the antitrust lawsuit brought against Microsoft for allegedly preventing all competition in the internet browser market:
https://youtu.be/YeLBQCpCi9c
Watch how he answers questions. That is Ti-Si at work in an almost pure sense. In the beginning here he is being asked about whether he would agree with the definitions of things like what constitutes “a web browser”.
This is an extreme example of how an INTP functions when in the Ti-Si looped state. They will deny other people’s definitions if it doesn’t match up in an exact way with their definition. Obviously, Gates is being evasive in this deposition, but, legally he is within his rights to demand further clarifications and what not.
This may be an extreme example, but, generally when I see Gates in interviews he will not answer questions without emending and qualifying what the other person has said.
And most of the time I have no idea what the fuck he is talking about because it is lost in such little refinements and distinctions that only he is privy to.
Gates lacks Fe to a very great degree. He is borderline autistic if not actually so.
Autism has the most to do with Ti when it is way overdeveloped (and Fe is most underdeveloped as a consequence) and as a secondary factor, the Si-Ne axis with Si leading. (Si-Ne is the axis of objective perception as I say in the Got Perception? article of late).
Oh man Blake, believe it or not, I haven’t watched your link yet but will but I read your comment, BUT I had read the Wikipedia entry where the judges are described as laughing at his attempts to reply and I had thought to myself now THAT could be the Ti qualification thing intps do that made them laugh. I am picturing Te judges expecting clear answers and then he stops and does what you describe as qualifying and amending to the point of what the fuck are you saying hahaha:) So I am fairly sure that when I watch the link I will know for sure he is intp:) Thanks!
Watched the video. Actually found it interesting to watch. Gates chuckling to his interviewer: “Did you actually read what was in there?” Around 7:18. Lol. Yikes. “You can’t really pin the definition to a particular date” The guy is like well aside from that, and Gates is like with patronizing tone after actually laughing 9:23 “it’s not accurate to say that internet explorer is defined at a single point in tyyyyy-ime, that it’s one set of ‘bits'” Lol. He has a point but it’s funny:) He’s alright:)
I think suddenly some people I had seen in school long ago who just couldn’t help have a true geek “appearance” were intps. Lol. I didn’t really mind them, but there is such a look to them.
Lunar,
I can see why your husband does not remind you much of Bill Gates. Of course, I’ve never met him or know a thing about him, but most INTPs have a keener grasp of Fe than you get with Bill Gates. The cadence of his speech and certain peculiarities of the way he speaks and even his facial features and expression do seem to buoy Blake’s conjecture and the belief mentioned by many other people that he seems “borderline autistic.” An “engineer brain” is what I see in him. I can’t see him as anything other than INTP, although most INTPs would probably not look, sound, or act quite like he does. The few I’ve known do not resemble him for the most part although there are definite similarities with that hair splitting detailed correction and all those nay feeling caveats to making or accepting a definitive statement that comes up with most of them from time to time. Very sweet and often overly nitpicky is the common thread as I experience them anyway. I guess that’s Ti-Si looping. A little display of Ne or Fe would bring such sweet relief. Way too many trees in that forrest. Head smack! 🙂
@Rita
Yes, engineer is how Bill Gates looks. He has a certain lack of ?art? that some istjs also have. And it is kind of fun to think someone like him can be CEO. Power to the geeks. (I don’t like the word geek much)
Another difference to my intp at first glance was that Bill Gates is very data-focused. Of course his job required it but it is something you first see when watching those prepared speeches to audiences.
A good friend of mine is a female INTP, but (as Rita ) she has a far keener grasp of Fe than Gates demonstrates. She is a gracious hostess who enjoys company (for the most part), likes to cook meals for her friends and has a large social network.
We have a lot in common as we’re both reasonably outgoing introverts with demanding jobs, and we both trust each other enough to talk freely about our challenges coping with the noisy, extraverted world. So I know how hard she’s worked to cope with having inferior Fe; for example she detests small talk, is frequently astonished by emotionally driven behavior, and finds conflict situations extremely painful and distressing.
On top of this, she was born with a severe physical handicap and has been confined to a wheelchair for her whole life. Much of her childhood was spent in hospitals and she almost died a number of times.
Against all the odds, she became a strong, independent woman with a highly successful career who still manages to live on her own, has travelled the world and even took up snowboarding using a specially modified “monoski”!
She’s probably the most inspiring person I’ve ever had the privilege to meet.
“She is a gracious hostess”
Yes, intps can be really warm hosts. They can bind themselves to the calls of Fe. This is how it looks to me. It looks different to how efjs, ifjs, use Fe, who do it with way more control, and can finely weave in fulfillment of various simultaneous objectives etc. But intps, they may just go for it as if they were “hit” with an immediate direct Fe call (I find it really sweet) (especially if the event is unplanned), they might cook something up with their own hands from their own minds without thinking twice, put music, do quite well with the right gestures but then also relax enough so they can take off to another plane and talk about stuff and even take risks such as prodding you, arguing with you, share whatever random things they’ve been thinking about, etc. If they are feeling free, comfortable, I don’t know I think it’s really nice and quite unique when it all comes together.
Actually… watching Bill Gates is really helpful to understand intps that are less towards the autistic end. It is a reminder that the Fe of an intp has limits. If an intp is making decent use of Fe, that already is an achievement, not to be taken for granted or demanded, and has that quality of the inferior which means it can look really inspirational but is gonna peter out.
He has a very istj look. Something about his smile in photos and lack of fun in interviews. Almost as if he lacked either intuition or feeling in a certain people sense. I hadn’t thought about how istjs and some of the intps can look similar appearance-wise . Istjs are super common in computer science as well so I guess yeah there is a similarity beyond appearance.
Lol:
https://charlierose.com/videos/23144
He is the first guest I have seen on Charlie Rose who looks away from Charlie so long at a time while talking. A few minutes in, it started to look like Gates is talking to the camera rather than Charlie.
http://www.businessinsider.com/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-bill-gates-2011-4/#in-high-school-he-went-dumpster-diving-to-try-and-get-source-code-1
That last bit about the plane…. dang.
What particularly struck me was what you said concerning INTP writings. I’ve tried many times to read a particular English writer (Zadie Smith), who I strongly feel is of the type, but I just can’t. I’d suddenly develop this piercing headache that prevents me making chapter two. Glad someone relates to their literature the way I do.
Are YOU an INTP? Because your writing is really annoying, lol. Jk, of course; I’m not so sure an INTP would use “Because I said so” in an article in which you’re supposed to be convincing people of your opinion and actually expect people to give in to your baseless insistence. “I don’t want to explain; just Google it!” Unfortunately, a Google search (not on enneagram, but I digress) led me here. Where you’re supposed to be explaining things, because you’re writing an article. Fortunately, I know enneagram, but I find it hilarious you’ve wasted your time stating your opinion and then just giving up whenever you have to explain anything deeper than “this type of person looks like this stereotype…because.”
–Hold that thought; I just did the maximum amount of research my limited amount of interest would allow and am able to infer (but not confirm) you seem to think you’re an INFJ? Hahahaha, of course you do. Ahhh, things certainly are clicking over here on my end. Anyway, I’d rate this article 70% annoying, 65% pointless. And I’ve also concluded I don’t quite know or care what MBTI type you are, but I definitely don’t take you seriously. Cheers!
God, you’re annoying. Thank god you don’t exist.