If Ti Aquarius represents one distinct type as separated from every other type, then Fe Pisces represents all types blended together in an indistinguishable way. Pisces, the last sign of the zodiac has often been described this way, as a little bit of all the signs that have come previously. I think we see this very thing in the ENFJ temperament, especially the enneatype 3 version of ENFJ, because enneatype 3 has to do with open expression and performing. In many ways, I think type 3 has the most to do with extraverted feeling.
Hey, think of the melting pot of New York City. Or America itself. A place where all cultures and races come together in a blended array to create a kaleidoscope of possibilities. All traits mixed together.
A big fucking gigantic mess?
Or a beautiful being with all bases covered?
Well, that’s how I essentially see the core of the type 3 ENFJ temperament. Their identity could be anything and they will bedeck themselves in a particular costume one minute (in a New York minute) and the next they will be on to something else. This is the temperament that I think you see prevailing in drama departments of universities worldwide.
Yes, ENFJ is the actor’s temperament. And as we know about actors, they are only the role they are playing at any given time.
Think of a person that could play any role. They could play a kid off the mean streets of Brooklyn. Or they could play a socialite in the high ensconces of French society. They can learn accents and dialects and mimic the look and feel of any type of person.
But, who are they really? Who is this actor behind their facades? What motivates them?
Well, one thing that motivates them is a desire for attention. Look at me. It seems that many type 3 ENFJs will do anything to get as much attention as they can. And so many of the people that do become famous are inevitably type 3 ENFJs.
They are ambitious to perform.
This performing tendency they have is also extended to doing whatever they have to in order to gain approval in the dominant values of their culture. I think a type 3 ENFJ will bust their ass to become the embodiment of the cultural ideal of their inherited society.
I think many of them gravitate towards big cities where there is vast scope and opportunity for them. Because they are so versatile, they can do many different things well. Or at least, look the part. Or because of the people savvy that comes with Fe dominance, they can insinuate themselves into beneficial networks that help advance them socially and professionally.
Another thing that jumps to mind about ENFJ is that they are hot to find mentors. Daddy figures that might subsidize them and teach them the ropes of their chosen calling.
And they want to make it big. They want to make money and be professionally successful.
Actually one of the predominant choices I see in ENFJ is the choice between living a quiet and soulful life in a relatively traditional marriage with kids and the alternating desire to be cosmopolitan. A jetsetter. To live a busy and itinerant life with all the ranges and possibilities of experience.
There is something about type 3 ENFJ that is never really settled. They have to keep busy. As soon as you think you have them pinned down, they are off. They can’t bear to be imprisoned in one scene.
O, they are good fakers. But, they are really genuine and sincere too. You believe them. Then, they do something incredibly narcissistic and self-serving.
But, do they have a self?
That could be the very thing right there. They can play all these different selves, many of them beautiful and desirable in one way or another, with themselves always looking good, or looking like the hero, but it seems like that is all an attractive mirage.
They are paragons. Ideals. Many ENFJs are the most beautiful people on the planet. They look fucking perfect.
Or if they are a little more twisted and out there (which many of them are), they look beautifully twisted and perfect. Kind of space cadetish (Remember, these guys have ENTP ids).
Their emotions are more like needs for freedom and space. If you get too close to them emotionally, they will feel a desire to break free. Like wild horses.
O, those wild horses. They look so good when they are running thoughtlessly across the range to nowhere in particular. When they are running away from you.
Yes, Freedom. That is the deep need they have. Their Ne id forces them to remain as unencumbered and free to explore as possible.
You often see this Ne id of theirs in their art expression as if they have this extremely vast field of space in which to unfold their variations on a vision. It’s incomprehensible, yet true.
Many of these ENFJs are what could be called avant-garde in expression. Some examples include David Bowie, Kate Bush, and Bjork. All space weirdos that bring incomprehensible elements into their artistic works. And sexy to boot. Sexy space cadets.
O, let’s not forget the inescapable visual and physical elements of their artistic expressions. A lot of love for dancing and using the body to convey a conceptual or artistic idea.
They may be weird, but, they are strangely commercial.
I think this is another conflict that lies in the theme of the type 3 ENFJ – that between true art and being commercially viable.
The way I see it, a type 3 ENFJ always has an eye on how commercial the implications of what they’re doing are. And they often maintain an admirable balance between being truly arty and appeasing some aspect of mass taste.
I mean, we musn’t forget that these beauties prime directive is to look good and desirable in the eyes of as many people as possible.
And they often succeed with flying colors, while also making art that is very thought-provoking and deep (and often just incomprehensibly strange).
Hey, did you know that ENFJs can look like introspective introverts a good deal of the time?
Yeah, some of them even seem to think they are introverts?
And they kind of are. But, they have no deep commitment to being deep. It’s just another part they can try on for a time.
Extraverted feeling (of this variety) is really good at cycling through all the different moods that are possible to be conveyed. Hey, you want a little moody introvert? No problem. They can play that part for years sometimes.
And then all of sudden something will change in their life and they will come flying out of that shell with flying colors. Really sudden turning points and shifts in style, identity, and perspective these guys can have.
They’ll dye their hair red, start wearing really racy dresses with a determination to turn on every man in town. What happened to that small town girl who was about to get married to Prince Charming?
Essentially, it is very hard to describe an enneatype 3 ENFJ because they desire to be all things to all people. That’s really what drives them.
That is the psychology of extraverted feeling – to be all types of people, except for one clearly defined and distinct type of person, the latter of which is the purview of Ti Aquarius, the ENFJ inferior function.
An ENFJ has a melting pot of a personality. A little bit of this, a little bit of that. You’ll never get tired of them. And if you do, they’ll just bolt out of there to make themselves interesting and desirable once again.
Trust me, if there’s one thing they can’t bear, it’s to be seen as uninteresting.
And there’s nothing as interesting as someone walking away from you.
Really makes you think, ya know?
But, then again…
O yeah, I forgot to mention one of the most important things about an ENFJ. I was saying how they can play any part and cycle through all of them really admirably. That they have no true and definite self. But, see that’s the thing – some of them do project this identity that just won’t quit.
And that is more when they are actually in a role. They play it to the hilt. And we are all kind of playing roles on this stage of life. As Shakespeare said “The world is but a stage and we are but actors in it”.
So, I don’t want to give the impression that this enneatype 3 ENFJ is some wishy washy non-individualistic person who just picks up impressions and puts them on.
No, they can have some of the strongest and most formidable individualities around. What this really comes down to is their introverted intuition auxiliary function.
What this means is that an ENFJ can be one absolutely definite and formidable persona. And it just won’t quit. They are so strongly that identity that it blows people away. It’s what you would call “a strong personality”. And when they have this auxiliary Ni turned on, they will just blow you away with their presence and commitment to authenticity.
So, this is where an ENFJ looks like a total rebel and non-conformist in open opposition to the society or establishment they find themselves in.
Yes, because that was what was missing from the previous interpretation – how fucking rebellious and absolutely individualistic and authentic they can be, with a total lack of compromise in projecting and asserting themselves.
And so what are they projecting so strongly and singularly?
Well, it is often stuff that has its origins in the extraverted intuitive id I was alluding to earlier, which is to say it has something to do with FREEDOM.
What kind of freedom?
The freedom to be absolutely and totally whoever the fuck I am whatever the fuck that means. ENFJs often have no idea what that means, but, they must express it. Or perhaps explore it openly via trying different ideas and conceptual expressions out.
What this means in actual practice is that an ENFJ will basically be alternating the Ni-Se axis to channel their id and dominant to create total badassery and all out balls to the wall crazy physical conceptual expression.
Um, in a nutshell, think interpretive dance. I think that best sums up the Ni-Se axis acting in tandem.
So, yeah, these motherfuckers gonna be moving all over the place in crazy ways. It’s a very active and vital expression.
But, weird and symbolic.
And awesome.
Whereas, an Ni dominant will tend to express the weird and the symbolic through some kind of art product or philosophy or treatise or what have you, the ENFJ is the art product; their body, their voice, their face, their visceral manic crazy energy. An ENFJ in high spirits is like a regular one stop entertainment center. They know how to get you to pay attention to them. They know how to rivet attention either by being glamorous, shocking, or so strongly present that it just will blow you away.
And often, with these artists that I’m thinking of, your mind won’t even be able to easily grasp onto it to categorize their expression (That’s Ti, their inferior function). So, it’s like you’ll be watching them perform their shtick and it will just totally leave the mind in some form of suspension. Um, yeah, it just sort of blows the mind, so to speak. You’ll be like “what the fuck is that?”.
And emotionally, you might not know what to feel either. These idiosyncratic ENFJs often leave the emotions in a quandary too. In other words, there can also be a lack of ability on the part of the viewer or listener of such ENFJ productions to formulate stable emotional judgements (introverted feeling) of what the fuck is going on. It’s just kind of awe-inspiring and incomprehensible. I mean, do I like it? Do I hate it? What the fuck? I don’t know.
But, you are likely to be paying attention to it while it’s going on. Because you can’t not pay attention to it. It commands your attention.
And like I said this fulfills the dominant psychological motivation of the enneatype 3 ENFJ – pay attention to me. Look at me. Love me. Hate me. Whatever. Just keep your eyes and your ears on me.
As one may guess, the type 3 ENFJ is one of the top candidates for being a rather classic narcissistic personality.
But, I don’t think one can accuse them of being uninteresting.
Since we’re talking pathology here, I might also note that I think the type 3 ENFJ is also one of the top candidates for being a manic-depressive (bipolar). I mean, it goes along with the gifts of their type – high-pitched extraverted feeling. It can swing really high or really low.
Which is not to say that I think MOST enneatype 3 ENFJs will be manic-depressive or narcissistic in the pathological sense. But, the continuums are there.
But, I suppose it’s all worth it for the entertainment value alone. I mean, there is nothing like witnessing a top-tier performer in the throes of manic-depressive breakdown.
And to end on a high note, some of the best rock frontmen (and women) in the world have been of this very type.
The best actors, actresses, and performing artists in general are composed of people from this type.
They want to be loved and admired?
Well, people love and admire them.
What more could they want?
Well, there is this little old thing called love.
And I have seen these enneatype 3 ENFJs yearn for that rather closed and exclusive system of love.
With that one special person they will settle down with and be true to for all times.
But…
Well, as you might imagine, this success and attention driven ENFJ will be quite a tough little number to settle down and live with.
They are not particularly faithful to any one person. They get bored rather easily. They cannot tolerate another person being bored with them. They have wide swings of emotion. They don’t like living in a four-walled world for long periods of time. They don’t particularly like kids because they would basically be in competition with them for attention.
And they don’t particularly like being with one person exclusively, although, like I said, they do yearn for it somewhere in the very background of their psychology (or the upper portions of their psychology).
In essence, they can be very successful people in all regards and highly admired and rich and have artistic integrity and just the whole grab bag of success…
But, it begins to feel empty because they have no one to share it with. The world is their lover. The eyes of predominant values of society. But, they can’t wake up in bed next to the eyes of the world.
Anyway, I said I would end on a high note and here I am talking about manic-depression, narcissism, and loneliness.
Did I mention that these guys are also top candidates for developing histrionic personality disorder?
Yep, homewreckers and heartbreakers these ones are.
So, just love and leave ‘em.
But, they’ll beat you to it.
And like I said, there is nothing as interesting as watching someone walk away from you.
Especially, a type 3 ENFJ.
They have such nice asses.
Really makes you stop and pay attention.
To them.
Once again.
Featured Image Credit: Stephen Luff (Image licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 Generic license)
Wow:)
I met an enfj a year ago and during like a whole 10 minutes of being with her I thought what the heck so much personality what was that I felt like she was both riding and playing the entire party.
She has that face you mention the freaking eyes and perfect look. Everything you write so true. Ni Se has always looked “hotter” to me as a general rule. Although Ne is also hot or the perfectly well maintained unabused in any way Si body can be hot too. But Ni Se is a Sexy hotness that goes right to the eyes.
Well I saw this lady again recently actually entered her home and you know how one time you talked about infjs swallowing their lovers which is kind of cool weird language, well this enfj SUCKED us in. She just got right to work what a performance. Lots of talking and we’d mention one thing and she was like “oh….” Theater theater theater we were there just a few minutes and when I left I remember telling the person with me this lady lives very large and dramatically….. I saw her again and there were more of us and it was just amazing watching her. She was eating all of us lol. High entertainment value:) definitely felt played but in a good way.
Bjork and Bush both have a video where they literally walk/run through rapidly changing landscape. I have seen such a video for both maybe they have more.
Wow, that’s a different take on ENFJs. They are fascinating to be sure. David Bowie, huh? He was beautifully fascinating, weird, and commercially and financially successful. He noted trends in the music industry and made some innovative and saavy investments at a time when other musicians were losing money. He reinvented himself over and over.
I am now wondering about Robert Plant. Would you include him in the ENFJ category? He has struck me as someone who has struggled with manic depression or is near the border of it. He has also reinvented himself multiple times and has changed his sound, musical vision, and band mates numerous times. Some of his album titles sound Ni-ish to me (Raising Sand, Manic Nirvana, Fate of Nations, Mighty Rearranger, Sensational Space Shifters, Now and Zen, etc…) He has been the only one who could not be pinned down for LZ reunion over the years. He agreed once and backed out at the last minute.
Who else might you add to this category? What other actors, politicians, and so forth would you maybe consider an ENFJ. So, they have a love of freedom and want to be the center of attention or famous? Only a serious shape shifter could muster the energy and power to pull both off. No wonder they fascinate. Their activity levels are extraordinary it seems and I can see the boredom being problematic for them from my limited experience with them.
The beauty part, is that really extremely common with these people? They are attractive and seem to have some kind of serious sensuality and loads of charisma, but I am trying to wrap my head around the trends in a type’s appearance. The two I think are ENFJs are not what you would call real lookers but they are somehow very sexy. Is it common for them to be kind of plumpish? Marlon Brando always looked to me like he had a fat person inside before he actually grew fat. He reminded me of Orson Welles somehow. Could he have been one too? What about Mel Gibson? He had a public meltdown of the variety you mentioned.
One thing for sure, these people are not dull. Thanks for another good article.
I am now wondering about Robert Plant. Would you include him in the ENFJ category?
Yes, definitely. And don’t forget the histrionic Janis Joplin either. Yes on Mel Gibson and Marlon Brando. Brando is my archetypal enneatype 8 ENFJ.
The beauty part, is that really extremely common with these people?
Yes. Enneatype 3 in general is conspicuous for it’s tendency to produce beauty of appearance and manner in those under its influence. I would say that this enneatype 3 comes under the rule of Venus astrologically.
Though not every type 3 will be beautiful, but, that’s the general tendency I’ve noticed.
It’s not always physical beauty, but, some kind of emanation of glamour and charisma that is unmistakable.
That is interesting that there are two Enneagram types in ENFJ. I will have to look more into this. Blake, you are a brain tickler extraordinaire!
Haha
I am oh so curious, what makes you laugh Femmy?
Everyone is having their own conversation, and here you are laughing.
So, I am coming to visit you in this corner and ask why oh why? I yearn to know…
So what changed your mind about Kate and Bowie? You had them typed as INTJ and ENTJ, respectively, before, and I’m curious about your reasoning. I was sold on Kate as an INTJ, and I’m looking for the pattern, the essential principle that makes a type a type, and I felt I saw that with her. Kate has a strong emphasis on fire, especially dramatic Leo, in her chart, as well as earth. Perhaps these elements give her the spectacular inspiration of her music and the to-the-point groundedness of her interview presentation. Interestingly, she does share this seeming dichotomy of traits with Bjork, among other qualities. They both displayed a strong ambition to be respected as full-fledged musicians in league with men, and they both accomplished that with the expansive, mindblowing masterstrokes Hounds of Love and Homogenic, both immediately followed up by the markedly feminine, domestic, and introverted Sensual World and Vespertine. Like a reaction, a rebellion against their previous tossle with masculine values. I guess I can see the continuum. I guess it’s easy to misread that auxiliary Ni; it can look like thinking or overall introversion because of its dispassionate and incisive expression of what it sees. Like you’ve said, it really is quite reality-based, just based on realities that are not readily apprehended by the senses. With INTJs one would expect less social grace and warmth, more of a cranky, misanthropic thrust. Like Thom Yorke. Both Bjork and Kate share a certain essential optimism and wonder whatwith their projection of Sagittarean values, that INTJs do not have.
So please do share your thoughts. I’m sure it will further clarify the distinguishing properties dominant Ni vs auxiliary Ni.
So what changed your mind about Kate and Bowie? You had them typed as INTJ and ENTJ, respectively, before, and I’m curious about your reasoning.
I had Bowie initially typed as a enneatype 3 ENTJ. I’ve since realized that there is no such thing as a enneatype 3 ENTJ and that all those people I had listed as enneatype 3 ENTJs (I called them the heartbreakers in my INTJ vs. ENTJ article) are enneatype 3 ENFJs.
What changed my mind? Hmm, hard to say. Some realization I had about Fe and how it can be pretty harsh and cold if it wants to be. Also, realizing that Te is really a no-go for show business typically even if it is under the auspices of the enneatype 3, which I saw as kind of softening and making the Te more expressive. I’ve since abandoned that and just come to the conclusion that this is Fe dominance and not Te dominance. Te is a straight-line function. It has it’s shit together and efficient and with the minimum of expressivity and color.
Now, I see a person like David Bowie having something approaching a cool reserve, but, I think that is due to him being an Aquarius Rising, which does mimic the id function of INTJ.
But, I think it is wrong to think of someone like David Bowie on the ENTJ continuum. He is renowned for being a chameleon who changes his music and his look to suit the trends of the time. So, the basic math is that if anyone is renowned for being a chameleon, then Fe is suspect (with intuition) and conversely Te is out. Te is the least chameleonic thing there is.
So, if we think of the extraverted judging functions as linear functions, which I do, then Te is the straight line without any deviations or curves, then Fe is anything but the straight line. It’s all the possible variations on linearity, which means curves and rises and falls. If Te is business or technical writing (or expression), then Fe is creative and artistic writing (or expression).
And so what I was seeing in people like Bowie was Ni projective (auxiliary) and Se tertiarial (ass-kicking and visceral). In other words, people that have that Ni-Se aux/tertiary axis project danger and sexuality. I feel that you often see the auxiliary first in people, especially people that are famous who are renowned for having a certain image. That image that you see has a lot to do with the auxiliary function.
Kate Bush? Hmm. How did I get on that INTJ tangent with her? It must have been a subjective thing of some sort. At any rate, recently, due to her name coming up in one of the comments of my last articles, I decided to have a reevaluation of her. And since I had been shuffling around all my enneatype 3 ENTJs to type 3 ENFJs, it kind of clicked in my mind that she is not an INTJ. Way too expressive and physical. Yes, there is definitely Ni there big time, but, I think I realized that it is projective Ni (auxiliary) and not ego-orienting Ni (dominant). And basically that what she is doing in her music and performance is not Te. What would projective Te look like? Um, not like what she is doing. I realized that is projective Ni. And Ni and Te do have a certain something in common in the hardness department. But, Ni is much more wild and incomprehensible.
I also see the implications of Ne id in Kate Bush similar to how I see in Bjork.
It is highly unlikely that an INTJ would be a top rate performing artist with their lack of Fe (not to mention Se) and their projective Te. Not too good for the expressivity and spontaneity needed to be such. On the other hand, it seems the ENFJ when you go through their functions would have the perfect setup to be an excellent performing artist. They have all the functions in just the right positions similar to how INFJs have all the functions in just the right positions to be the best creative writers on the Myers-Briggs block. ENFJs are capable of being great writers (in the arts) too, but this comes second to their performing art abilities. And the vice-versa is true for the INFJ. They are better at coming up with original creative material, but they can also be good performers, though certainly not compared to the ENFJ.
INTJs? Hmm. I’m still questioning how much an INTJ can be involved in the arts, either as a writer or a performer. Obviously, they would make better writers than performers because they are more similar to the INFJ than the ENFJ…but, hmm…the jury is still out on that one.
I think David Lynch and Stephen King might be INTJs. They both do horroresque type shit.
I think David Lynch in particular could be accused of making intentionally unpalatable (Un-Fe) art.
I betcha a lot of those industrial noise artists are INTJs. The ones that just like to jack you up emotionally or…
O, yes, here we go…
I think Igor Stravinsky (the neoclassical composer) was an INTJ. Like the way he went about composing with tone rows. That is a very Te way of approaching musical composition. Mathematical.
Brian Eno, the creator of the ambient genre of music, has an algorithmic way of composing music based on a preset pattern. Check him out. I think he is definitely an INTJ artist.
But, Kate Bush I recant on my former typing of her as an INTJ. And, I might be wrong. But, she makes more sense to me on the continuum of enneatype 3 ENFJ. Yes, she might be one of the weirder people on this continuum. She strikes me as having a lot of Ni. But, she fits in there better than the INTJ continuum at this point. For one thing, she simply looks like an enneatype 3 woman.
Hope that makes sense. If not, come at me with more questions. I’d love to make it as clear as day 🙂
I believe you might have it right about Kate Bush being an Enneatype 3 ENFJ, Blake.
I’ve been trying to guess her MBTI type myself for years. I could clearly see that she is an intuitive type but was mislead by all that Ni-weirdness into believing she must also be an introverted type. But somehow, none of the INXX types ever felt quite right either.
In hindsight, the answer may have been staring me in the face for years. Back in the 80’s there was an excellent satirical BBC TV show called “Not The Nine O’Clock News”. One show ended with this fabulous Kate Bush parody, sung by Pamela Stevenson:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2w1ju2
It can also be found on YouTube if you search for “Oh England My Leotard”.
The basic gist of the parody is summed up in these lyrics:
“‘It’s not your mind, it’s your body they’re into-oo-oo’
My business-manager said.
He said that I need an intellect like I need a
Hole in the, hole in the, hole in the head.
Though I’m an honorary member of Mensa now,
I’m going to try and keep up the pretense somehow.”
This is classic Enneagram type 3 behavior. You summed it up perfectly in this comment, Blake:
“The way I see it, a type 3 ENFJ always has an eye on how commercial the implications of what they’re doing are. And they often maintain an admirable balance between being truly arty and appeasing some aspect of mass taste.”
Word of mouth has it that Kate wasn’t upset by this sharp but affectionate parody, and thought that it was funny.
For the true Kate Bush obsessives out there (and there are a lot – I should know!), here are the full lyrics to the song:
Oh England, my Leotard
I was into yin and yang and hatha yoga
Ginseng and caraway seeds and being a non-smoker
My cauliflower quiches were better than the bought ones
And I was thicker than two short ones
People bought my latest hits
‘Cos they liked my latex tits
Everyone trying hard
To get inside my leotard
Went to my hairdresser to have a hair-do (hair do-be-do)
He asked if I knew À la recherche du temps perdu
That’s how I was introduced to Colette, Cocteau and Marcel Proust
Now wholefood cookery is just a sideline
(Shrill ‘La-La-la’ middle eight.)
I went to Cairo and I read the Gnostic
Apocryphon of John in the original Cop-a-tic-a
Korsakoff’s psychosis theories
And the Fibonacci series
Studied acupuncture and the Bible – Byabubble –
Opened the windows in my mind
‘It’s not your mind, it’s your body they’re into-oo-oo’
My business manager said.
He said that I need an intellect like I need a
Hole in the, hole in the, hole in the head.
Though I’m an honorary member of Mensa now
I’m going to try and keep up the pretense somehow.
‘Cos you buy my latest hits
Because you like my latex tits
And you’re all trying hard to get inside my
Leotard, leotard, leotaaaaardddddd
Oh England, my Leotard
Ooh ooh ooh ooh
(High, MELISMATIC ‘ooh’s, increasingly varispeeded up in pitch until they’re so high only dogs can hear them. and tall ones at that.)
Having worked with one or two INTJs in theatre, I think maybe if their Fi pulls them in the performance direction they can be quite good within their bounds (never great). I feel where they can shine is as collaborators for ENFJ or INFJ types, by being technical wizards who “get” the art, or conscientious bit players, or by serving a grounding function (addressing things like entrances/exits, props, etc. in a way amenable to the artist’s point of view), essentially putting Te in service of an artistic goal one way or another. Not much of that translates to prominence as a musical performer, though.
I think a while back someone was asking about ISTP musicians– one that has come to mind is, perhaps, Mark Knopfler? The effortless musical skill deployed almost without affect, the understated lyrics with hard edges typically delivered in character. Like, something like Brothers in Arms as an analogue to While My Guitar Gently Weeps, All Things Must Pass, etc. “My love is like a storybook story.”
Wow.. Insightful article as always.. Being an enneatype 3 ENFJ sounds like a lot of fun.. But also very demanding.. aren’t these people ever afraid of burning out?
Is Freddie Mercury one too?
Wow.. Insightful article as always.. Being an enneatype 3 ENFJ sounds like a lot of fun.. But also very demanding.. aren’t these people ever afraid of burning out?
Thanks. I don’t know if they are afraid of burning out though they often do burn the candle at both ends.
Is Freddie Mercury one too?
Could be…could be…I’d have to sit with that for a while.
I get the sense that Freddie Mercury was an ISFP. He had a sensitivity, an artistry, a sensual appetite, and he had that slightly melancholy aspect. He was loyal and devoted to a woman who he loved from before he recognized and owned his sexuality. He supposedly wistfully told her many years after he let her go romantically and she had married and had children that he wished he could have what she had and would have loved it. No one ever supplanted her in his heart and he left the bulk of his estate to her to the chagrin of his partner of several years. Several other lovers supposedly complained about Mercury’s closeness with her and he said if they made him choose, he would choose her. She was his home base. He could turn on a dime after showing that sentimentality and melancholy mood and suddenly be the life of the party and very sanguine with flirtatiousness. There were lots of reports and accounts from those closest to him that describe his “Mercurial” 😉 nature. He was an original!
I get the sense that Freddie Mercury was an ISFP.
Bingo. Yes, I agree with everything you said as describing this more ISFP dynamic. Plus, Mercury just vibe-wise comes across more xSFP. I don’t know how to put that in words right this moment, but, yes, I agree.
And there is a big rapport and crossover between ENFJ and ISFP. Big time. You see it a lot in famous rock bands. There will be an ENFJ front man and their ISFP guitarist. Rolling Stones and Guns N Roses come to mind.
And both these types have huge admiration for each other. The ENFJ is more able to project personality-wise in being out front and the ISFP is the more quiet and mute totally sunk into their instrument. Living their instrument.
Take Axl Rose and Mick Jagger paired up with their respective ISFP counterparts of Slash and Keith Richards.
In the case of Freddie Mercury, I don’t see him as having that huge egoistical projection that typical lead rock frontman of the ENFJ variety have. He is definitely more ISFP or ESFP, but, I think in this case, Rita is right. Mercury actually looks physiologically like an ISFP.
I personally sometimes get very confused between ENFJ, ISFP, and ESFP. Like, I think Roger Daltrey, lead singer of The Who may have been an ESFP. I definitely think David Lee Roth, former lead singer of Van Halen was a quintessential ESFP sexual clown.
Blake,
David Lee Roth, “the quintessential ESFP” sexual clown.” LOL! So true. Exactly as I see him. I am not sure about Roger Daltry.
Regarding Freddie Mercury, I see Fi in him very strongly. He only really revealed himself to a very few people and was really said to be mostly intimate (in the emotional knowing sense) with that one woman. He also had a kind of emotional honesty in some ways too that seems unmistakable. It is said that he went through a lot of pain because he did not want to live a lie and respected her too much to live a double life. At first he distanced himself from her and then he told her the truth that he could no longer be with her because he could not not betray her and be true to himself. I think there is a lot of emotional honesty and depth to ISFPs that people don’t always recognize because they can sometimes appear to be flippant, irreverent, self centered, and somewhat irresponsible. These things are also true, but in their core they are very deep people. I agree with you, Blake about the ISFP physiology and Mercury lacking that “egoistical projection that typical lead rock frontmen” have.
Here is a great video of an ISFP/ENFJ collaboration. I adore this song and video:
https://youtu.be/YoDh_gHDvkk
@Rita
I have no idea what type he is (I am done typing people), but… it wouldn’t shock me if he is isfp.
Just by thinking of the video of Russell Brand. That doesn’t seem crazy. I see a similar aura. For whatever that is worth.
Lunar,
Don’t be done typing people! I could tell you’ve enjoyed the process and you ask many interesting questions and suggest some alternatives. In the end, who is right? Who the heck knows? There are patterns in the world and in people and people have brains that like to categorize things. A lot of it is subjective, but in discussions we come to formulate a loose template that help us all to come to terms with archetypes and add some degree of mutual understanding of the variety of human presentation.
Well, of course, you can be done if you are truly finished and find no more interest in it. You just seem to be discouraged lately that your points seem different than other people here at times and that may turn to self doubt?Perhaps your points, even if rejected, help everyone to better formulate and solidify our collective critical thinking? I am just saying, as long as it is fun for you and you have ideas, don’t stifle your voice even if what you say seems to be dismissed. You may never entirely know when and if the point you make is the turning point for everyone. Okay, I’m done pep talk lecturing and cheerleading. It was meant to be encouraging, but you can’t see my eyes or intention to know that I’m not as bossy as this text may sound. I trust that you know what is best and know best what you feel comfortable with.
I want to add that the collaboration between Queen and David Bowie kind of worked out according to type. The song was a Queen/Bowie joint effort, but David Bowie spearheaded a lot of it by deciding which lyrics they all came up with would be emphasized and prioritized and was pretty pushy about arrangements, which was not the way Queen usually worked. It sounds as if it was usually more democratic. Freddie Mercury, not only just sang the lyrics but added his fabulous voice to add emotional effect with his unique vocal instrument by adding the scat sounds, “Um ba ba be
Um ba ba be
De day da
Ee day da – that’s okay” Actually the scat sounds, were the first vocal sounds of the collaborative efforts to be chosen and used. He also added the “give love, give love, give love… ” part.
It is interesting to compare their final videos. David Bowie’s Lazarus is odd and creepy and very arty. It was released two days before he died. Freddie Mercury did a sweet sentamental tune largely written by Roger Taylor about lost days with his kids, but seems an appropriate goodbye and celebration of life and love. You will notice that Freddie Mercury looks almost like a Valentino retrospective production in the makeup in the black and white video. Part of that was simply necessity because he looked pretty alarming at this point and had to wear heavy makeup to cover the ravages of AIDS. I will just post the pretty video that I think shows Mercury’s sanguine/melancholy nature pretty clearly. This video was made about 5 months before he died. If anyone is interested, you can see the making of the video and see Mercury in color and it is quite a different look. He was walking with a cane by this time and sometimes had a hard time standing. He had told his band mates in a round about way that the rumors of his illness were true and that he did not want to talk about it again. He just wanted to work. He did not get to finish recording the one last song he was working on. It was later completed by Brian May.
Both men gave all they had up until the end to produce their art.
David Bowie’s Lazarus: https://youtu.be/oB4K0scMysc
Queen’s These Are the Days of Our Lives: https://youtu.be/y-JqH1M4Ya8
Thanks Rita and Blake 🙂
Hmm maybe the ENFJ, ISFP, ESFP confusion is because all three are capable of demanding and holding attention with their physicality.. Se-Ni and Ni-Se are both sensual but Se-Ni always has its feet on the ground and Ni-Se always has its head in the clouds, although both have a great ability to exude charisma.. I can see the difference now.. So much “personality” and “presence”.. Of a different kind..
ENFJ ennea 3 sounds and looks like something from a fairy tale.. These people can be anyone they want to be by not holding on to the idea of “self”.. Oh how brilliant they would be on stage in a Shakespearean theatre festival! I would love to be able to entertain people that way.. And make myself so hard to resist.. Come to think of it.. Reminds me of the character of Becky Sharp in Vanity Fair, though she was a hella selfish version of whatever she was.. Hmm.. As exciting as the idea of living so many lives sounds, the drama would get tiresome.. If there’s one thing i desire more than anything else, its a clear definition of “self”, which is always a work in progress..
And these ISFPs do love performing shirtless, don’t they? My ISFP friend loves showing off his chest even when it’s unnecessary.. Got to love them for their honesty though.. There’s something very real about ISFPs when they’re being inviting.. Like their emotions are thick and tangible.. ESFP for me is irresistible.. I wish I could own my body the way they do.. I spent a good portion of my Sunday watching Julianne Hough’s (ESFP?) dance videos.. Just so.. SEXY.. I could watch them all day.. I do get bored of ESFPs once i know them inside out though.. Not so easily with ISFPs.. They have a balance of the physical and the intellectual which makes them more interesting.. ISFPs and ISTPs are capable of making very interesting movies i think.. Auteurs with a vision.. Raising questions about our perception of reality but with just the right amount of action to make it exciting for all kinds of people..
Out of curiosity.. If Robert Plant is ENFJ then Jimmy Page is? I adore led zepp.. but there’s something about their music which makes me not turn to it when I really need to connect to something..
Piggie,
About Led Zepplin, they do have a very broad variety of music so perhaps there is something in there you have not yet given a real listen to. The Rain Song has one of the most beautifully harmonic sound coupled with Robert Plant’s one of a kind voice. To me, it is a masterpiece! If not that, then something else may trip your trigger because there are so many different styles of music that can be heard in that bands work. Even if they aren’t to your taste, I hope you can admire their artistry, innovation, and rapport.
Given the magic that occurred between him and Plant in making music, I’d say Jimmy Page may be ISFP. Besides, he was one terrific guitar player, which is something that ISFP’s often excel at. He does have kind of an androgynous face, which seems to be a thing with ISFPs. He also was very quiet, which is another check mark for an ISFP. Still, I have not spent much time studying him as a personality.
Yes, Robert Plant definitely equals ENFJ material. Kind of thoughtful and introspective mixed with cock rock capabilities. Plant had me confused for the longest of time. Is he ISFP, ENTJ, ESFP, ENFP etc. Well, that all points to ENFJ the way I see it now.
Now, I have this theory about Jimmy Page. I think he is an INTJ mimicking ISFP. He’s a Scorpio rising with Capricorn Sun. That mimics the dominant Fi of ISFP and the auxiliary function of ISTP.
But, if you know anything about Led Zep, Page was the mastermind of the band. Kinda of like a George Martin figure, the guy who was considered the 5th member of the Beatles due to producing, arranging, and engineering their studio masterpieces. Page had a similar perfectionism and was very controlling about the way Zep’s studio stuff sounded.
So, anyway, that is my current take on Jimmy Page. Not an ISFP, though, mimicking certain traits of them due to his astrology. However, who knows, I could be wrong. He is certainly considered one of the top guitar gods and was definitely a guy that was sunk into his guitar like a motherfucker. But, it may be useful to compare him to more calculated guitarists like Robert Fripp of King Crimson (who was also the mastermind of that band) or someone like Mark Knopfler of the band Dire Straits. Those guys are much more intellectual guitarists who believe in discipline and repetitiveness to get good. Just sheer hard work.
I see ISFP as a type, and particularly as a musician (and many musicians are this type) as a spontaneous, uncontrolled, uncalculated, doing it for the sheer fun and joy of what comes in the moment type thing. Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones is my kind of go-to example for this sort of vibe. Slash of Guns N Roses would be another great example. Guys that just live and breathe the music and that’s the end of it. No masterminding or going over things a million times to perfect it. Their perfection comes in their love of playing.
Jimmy Page don’t strike me that way. He has more of the controlling mastermind mentality.
But, he does look like an ISFP upon cursory inspection, I’ll give you that.
Blake,
As soon as typed that comment about Page and posted, I immediately thought otherwise. I began to remember what I know about him which is actually quite a bit. Also, the biggest thing to me is that he does not have that ISFP overall vibe. I admire Jimmy Page for his mastery and artistry of the guitar, but there is something creepy about him. There is an undercurrent of something else that you will not find in most ISFPs, even those who are pretty dark and twisted. Now, I don’t think most INTJs are really creepy people, but I would say this one is more than a little creepy. He also has had an underhanded reputation from way back. It was often said to have stolen music from his friends (outright), such as Jeff Beck and Eric Clapton.
I also remember that Page/Plant were rumored to not have a particular fondness for each other, but were said to respect each other. Plant was very close to Bonham and over time, he and John Paul Jones really seemed to like each other quite a bit. A lot of their last album was co-written by John Paul Jones and Robert Plant. It was Plant who did not want to come back after Bonham died because he had a loyalty and love for Bonham and said he did not want to look back there and see an empty spot where Bonham should be. I only mention those things because despite all of Robert Plant’s arrogance, he has a detectable heart (I believe) and the capacity to be close to people (for a time any way). I do not see that in Jimmy Page. He certainly seems more cooly calculated and I bet he’s got some serious dark crap underneath that slightly babyish face (without the ISFP eyes).
Oops, I missed this when I made my earlier comment. You think Knopfler is an INTJ, then, not ISTP?
Oops, I missed this when I made my earlier comment. You think Knopfler is an INTJ, then, not ISTP?
Not sure about Knopfler. It’s just that I think he is not an ISFP and is closer to a guitarist like Robert Fripp of King Crimson (who I do think is an INTJ) who is more calculated and believes in repetitive discipline to achieve sonic excellence. Hell, King Crimson has an album called Discipline and if you see certain interviews with Fripp where he describes his approach to guitar playing as methodical and disciplined. He’s also very experimental and pushes the boundaries of conventional listenability in his playing and composition. But, Fripp does this in a very calculated and algorithmic way and not in a feeling way, at least not in a conventional feeling way you can hear from ISFP-type guitarists. Someone like Eric Clapton for instance.
Knopfler I’m not as familiar with though I do like him an awful lot from the little I know about him and his music. Yes, he could be an ISTP. Not dead certain at this point, though, for some reason, ISTP never jumped into my mind as an option for him. I lean towards INTJ for him over ISTP at this juncture. Perhaps further evidence and arguments could convince me of him being an ISTP. Like I said, I have nothing like a dead certainty about him.
I decided to look into the elusive Jimmy Page a little more closely on a more personal level. I had already read a lot about his musical interests, directions, history and influences. I did not know much about the man personally, other than he bought Alaister Crowley’s house on Loch Ness. Well, it turns out he is a bit creepy after all. He had a 13 or 14 year old girl kidnapped by one of LZ’s hired people, seduced her and kept her under wraps and under lock and key for several years. He was 29 years old. There are pictures of them together. It is true she was one of the “baby groupies” that popped up around that time, so he couldn’t be the only pervert in rock and roll at that time. However, this was not a drunken, stoned “damn, you looked older last night” kind of thing. It was premeditated, conscious, and kept going.
Since those days he’s matured in his tastes a little it seems. At 71 he is dating a 25 year old.
Page quote from 1975 People article: “I’m just looking for an angel with a broken wing who can’t fly away.” Well, a young fatherless teen with daddy issues and a mother who is careless, permissive, or allows herself to be paid off can certainly fit that bill.
I decided to look into the elusive Jimmy Page a little more closely on a more personal level.
Good work Rita. Some nice solid evidence and facts there. It essentially corroborates the impression I have of Page – that he is not as sweet as that baby face may suggest (well, it’s not baby anymore).
I know most of this information besides the particulars of the young girl situation.
Page is definitely a creepy smart motherfucker. Quite serious and a planner. He planned and orchestrated much of the music. He was the mastermind behind the music.
And he was into black magic. Seriously.
So, INTJ 🙂
@Rita, I internet love you:)
Awww, shucks!!! Thanks Lunar. You warmed my heart!
It had been some time since I’d seen a video of them and decided to look at some videos and that chilly feeling about him came back over me that I always had in the past. That is why I started looking into him.
We don’t expect rock stars to be saints. Robert Plant and Bonham were wild too. Robert Plant was said to have been nice and respectful to groupies and the ones I came across of his were all of age! He had an 18 year old when he was 19 and spent several years with a woman he met when she was 20. I expect them to cheat on their wives and do some drugs, but that whole thing with the child just is yucky. She said, “he loved teaching me things.” She is almost 60 and still seems stunted to me, although she says she does not regret her time with him. That’s what happens when you take a middle schooler away from normal childhood activities. If we were in a hunter/gatherer society where you lived the life you would live for the rest of your life by the time you are 13, it might be more understandable.
John Paul Jones was the only one who you cannot find a lot of dirt on. He is still married to the woman he was married to back then. He traveled separately from the others. He also did not like one of Robert Plant’s groupies and told her she was “a home wrecker.” He seems a little more conventional type or he was just smart and covered his tracks well. I wonder about his type.
Anyway, they were a great band and they lived through some interesting and horrible stuff. Robert Plant was hit the hardest by tragedy and almost left the band to enroll in college to be an English teacher. Some speculate the tragedies were the result of Jimmy Page’s black magic.
Post Led Zeppelin, Robert Plant and John Paul Jones have been more active and innovative than Page. They don’t seem to mind moving on and forward.
Rita,
Interesting stuff! You’re so incisive 😀
Oh i do love Led Zeppelin 🙂 Some of their songs are my all time favourites.. And their versatility is what i admire most about them.. You can’t fence them into a category and say you belong here.. They could switch from heavy metal to blues to reggae to welsh folk and sound like completely different bands but then you’d hear Robert Plant and there was the unique Led Zepp flavour.. I really get what Blake means by ENFJ being a melting pot of personalities but still having that strong individuality.. My god.. The band was so many things.. No one can ever really emulate the multiplicty and that’s what makes them singular.. What fascinating music.. I guess what i meant was that even though i appreciate the beauty of what i’m listening to, i’m aware of it being something external.. Something i’m “listening to”.. It don’t fill the holes in my soul.. 🙁
I read about Page’s underage groupie and that notorious “fishing incident” many years ago.. That was the day that “humanized” the band for me.. Till that point i used to think they were perfection.. But suddenly they became humans.. I think i’ve never been able to listen to them the same way after that (I know, i know! They’re rockstars and this is normal for rockstars.. But I was young and naive and idealistic! 😛 ).. I think some of the rivalry between the guitarist and the singer in Almost Famous is based on Cameron Crowe’s experiences with the band.. And Poor John Paul Jones never got the attention he deserved.. He was a huge part of their sound but always went unnoticed for some reason..
I back the judger pretending to be a perceiver thing for Page.. His mastery is undeniable.. But it’s not an ISFP style mastery.. I’ve seen my ISFP friend play.. And it’s like he and the instrument are one and the music is just flowing out of them.. Jimmy Page is obviously in a different league and i wouldn’t compare them.. But Page sounds like he’s one with the guitar but doesn’t look like it.. There’s a consciousness there.. Even his fantasy sequence in The Song Remains The Same was INTJish..
Piggie,
Yes, about the “fishing incident” made famous from the “Hammer of The Gods” book, you can rest a little easier about these rockers. It seems that it was a roadie thing. The only member of the band that people can recall being there was Bonham and even that is fuzzy in their brains. The people involved have actually told the story quite differently, but they confirmed that something of it happened and they say say the band was not there, unless “maybe” it was Bonham. When Bonham was drunk, he was a crazy monster. He allegedly punched a woman at a restaurant for smiling at him and said, “don’t ever do that to me again.” When not drunk, he was really pretty sweet. Robert Plant told his son Jason that the reason he is not willing to go on even with a fabulous drummer like Jason doing LZ on a regular basis is because he is not Bonham. He says he misses his friend every day. Bonham was the only band member who stayed by his side, was supportive, and went to the funeral of Plant’s 6 year old son. There is a video of Robert Plant in around 2007 or 2008 performing with the members of LZ and you can see tears on his face. They did not look like moved and happy tears. I believe what he says is true.
If you look at Robert Plant’s solo career, it is all over the map as to style and sound. From North Africa to Appalachia, to pop to sampling, to 50s nostalgia to current trends, his music changes and evolves.
The creepiest looking thing, in my opinion that Robert Plant ever did was have a child with his ex-wife’s sister. His kids must have to introduce each other to others as, “this is my sister/cousin” or “this is my brother/cousin.” How awkward.
Still, he and his ex-wife are still friends. He is even friends with some of the groupies. When a long time groupie’s name (who he asked to marry him) was mentioned to Page, he said, “I’ve known a lot of bimbos in my time.” There is a different attitude that is highly detectable here towards women.
I should have known Page was not an ISFP too, because I tend to be drawn to them to some degree and find them highly attractive. I never found him attractive, but only his music.
John Paul Jones was never ever given the credit he deserved. He was responsible for a lot of the sound and innovative (listen to No Quarter), but was only really credited on the last album. He said, “I should have paid more attention to the credits.” He was rather hurt and dismayed by the fact that Jimmy Page has made it look as if he just showed up and played what Jimmy told him to.
I feel like a gossip columnist here. So, in tribute to this great band, I will leave behind two most friendly little tunes. They are sweet and sentimental little ditties to cleanse our palettes of all the distasteful shannanigans we’ve discussed. The lyrics of the first were said to be written for Plant’s wife.
https://youtu.be/u1z4vkPWkLQ
Re: Mark Knopfler
I think these are good interviews for typing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpPYuGirBrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBGUaES_j4
The second one in particular, where he’s younger and quite relaxed. In both, I see Ti and light Fe. Ti in the way he chooses and revises his words, the care and economy of phrasing. The bit where he’s talking about record companies, 5:30 or so on the second video, reads Ti-Fe and certainly nothing like how I imagine an INTJ would make that point. No Te at all, and the trust he puts in his phrases and the ability of the listener to understand says Ti-Fe to me. Fe in how easily he holds attention in the first interview, the easy little jokes he tells knowing that they’ll land, his low-key charm. And as I said, his lyrics are typically delivered, sparely and convincingly, in character (tertiary Ni) and tend to sketch a persona on the strong-silent-action-loner spectrum.
His gaze is steady and sure when he isn’t doing the Ti-Ni hunt for the right word, and I get a less oppressive form of the same “stickiness” that alerts me to Si id in ISFP. To me this makes INTJ at least as unlikely as INTP or INFJ, the other two possibilities given what functions he seems to be displaying.
In recent years he advocates for veterans, but (as far as I’m aware) in a very understated “this is what I’m doing, it’s not right that they’re poorly treated” way, not the “IT IS WRONG AND HERE’S HOW TO FIX IT” an INTJ might display.
Also he has a lit degree and taught sixth form English for three years, which isn’t impossible for an INTJ but I would think argues against it.
I would type Knopfler as an INFJ in the Pete Townshend mold. As a matter of fact, he very much resembles Townshend (at a similar age) in the first interview. The music critic George Starostin has said that “Pete Townshend could be the angriest punk on Earth and he could be the gentlest and the most spiritual being on the planet.”
I see the same thing in Knopfler sans the “angry punk” extreme. Knopfler strikes me as a very gentle and reasonable guy that has no pretension and is just being himself. He has that “humanism” that is so simple and rare in this world.
Also, I think he has taken a lot of time and agony to get good at the guitar and writing on the guitar. Similar to Dylan, he says that he first picked up on a very simple rhythm (and inroads to technique) on the guitar and played it over and over again until he got it down. This is pretty much what Se deficiency (inferior) means. It takes a long time to gain an impression of a external stimulus. Often, INFJ guitarists will have a very simple technique (childlike one might say) that much of their products are based on.
I think I remember Knopfler describing in some Youtube video somewhere lessons on how he understands guitar and insight into his techniques etc. I remember him being very humble, clear, and saying that he was very disciplined and determined to get good at the guitar. In other words, the physical and technical aspects of the guitar did not come easily to him.
INFJs are capable of being very disciplined due to their Particular Saturnian (Particular Melancholic) designation. They share this with ISTP, ISTJ, and INTJ. Knopfler is definitely presenting somewhere around there. However, I do not think he is an ISTP.
Nor at this point do I think he is an INTJ. Actually, I don’t know why I thought that. As Stewart maintains, this guy is showing easy Fe. It’s rather endearing and slightly charming in a way that INFJs often present.
I see inferior Se though and not the vestiges of bypassed auxiliary Se that you would see in an ISTP. I also do not Si id, though, I do see some Si in Knopfler. His astrological chart has Saturn in the first half of Virgo and Saturn is always an important placement for an INFJ (or any of the Particular Melancholics I cited above).
If anything, from these interviews, he is closer to ISFJ than ISTP or INTJ. I don’t know where I came up with INTJ for him. Must have been some sort of associative exercise gone wrong. I was somehow lumping him with more methodical guitarists like Robert Fripp of the band King Crimson. Or even, Brian Eno, who is not really a guitarist, but, more a synth and sound wizard.
The thing is INFJs can be methodical (which means highly given to repetition of a technique) because they are Saturnian types in a particular sense. But, the thing is they are also Neptunian types in a general sense (which means highly given to inspiration and non-practice and non-repetition), so they can be…well, like Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd. Barrett is another example of an INFJ guitarist and songwriter and he was considerably tending more to the Neptunian (general indications) aspect of the INFJ type.
But, the similarity among all INFJ guitarists is that they all possess a rather simple technique (even if well-studied and rehearsed and replayed and such).
Hell, the same thing was said about the basic clue to understanding Shakespeare’s apparently complex verse – it’s the rhythm of the heartbeat – one-two, one-two, one-two etc.
Very simple rhythm. And over this you can lay all the flora and fauna of INFJ Fe color, multiplicity, and variation. Also, note, that some INFJs are rather minimalist and relatively non-colorful and other INFJs just throw the paint at the fucking wall. It’s that Saturn/Neptune dichotomy mixed with their function positions.
An INFJ can present as extremely simple (refreshingly simple) and childlike all the way on up to an extremely complex and enigmatic expression. They can also alternate between the two extremes to make it more confusing, such that you don’t know if they really are being simple and honest and forthright (like I see in Knopfler) or if they are doing it to further confuse classification (Dylan did this all the time). It’s one of the reasons that its hard to pin down the essential INFJ qualities.
They are a complex type, yet, they can be disarmingly simple, honest, and have nothing to hide. They’ll show you everything. They’ll demystify and deflate pretentiousness.
The variations of INFJ are legion. But, there is still some core thing that makes them INFJ. I would say it has something to do with a certain “humanism” that is present with them whether they are presenting as the angriest punks on earth or the most gentlest and spiritual beings on the planet.
That’s fascinating, thanks. I’d considered INFJ and thought it unlikely based on how cool and technical his music is. Also I was a bit suspicious of any impulse to INFJ-crush based on his awesomeness.
It sounds like I correctly identified the functions he shows (including some Si) but was quite wrong about their orientation. This is perhaps an impossible question, but without the diagnostic clue of the laborious Se, would your holistic take on him still have inclined you to INFJ?
I’d been really confused before by how you could type Jung as ISTP, but I totally see now how that apparent type can fall within the range of INFJ expression. Which still leaves us without an ISTP musician.
Good Morning Rita and Piggie
I missed all the debate – life getting in the way.
Last night I was listening to a little Led Zep and this morning I read this thread????. I too would type Plant as ENFJ and Page as INTJ. Robert Plant has that interesting mix of wanderlust and loyalty you often see in ENFJs – a sort of emotionally entangled nomad. Incidentally, have you come across Terence Watt’s ‘Warriors, Settlers and Nomads’ – it’s a fascinating read?
I agree Jimmy Page has a creepy, controlling vibe. I love listening to him but never felt a sense of connection watching him and wouldn’t have classed him as ISFP. It’s true he’s very quiet but ISFPs tend to be quiet because they’re naturally inarticulate and/or deeply absorbed. Jimmy Page definitely isn’t inarticulate and there was always this sense he was silently watching others “Come into my parlour, said the spider to the fly.” I saw those interviews with the ‘baby groupie’ when she made allegations about Bowie and they made my blood run cold. Whilst an interest in the occult doesn’t strike me as particularly INTJish, I could see Page being attracted to ceremonial magic and the like as a means of controlling others.
I know much less about John Bonham and John Paul Jones, so they’re difficult to type. JPJ possibly ISTP?
Picking up on Rita’s point about LZ’s wide oeuvre, here’s the beautiful (and for me very connectable) track I was listening to yesterday. Created without (apparently) an INFJ among them! ????
No idea why my emojis always seem to come out as ???? on here!
Well good evening Karen,
Thank you for posting the song link with all the groovy ’70s pics of these young rock gods! Any day is a good day for some LZ that gets less regular air play.
Robert Plant: “an emotionally entangled nomad.” Great line and I think a perfect description of his ENFJ nature (at least as far as we can tell from afar). Robert Plant’s music in all his many phases is always high quality in my opinion. He gives his all in concerts too!
Jimmy Page supposedly went through a few years of being a heroin addict (just like Crowley was supposed to have done)towards the end of LZ. Jimmy Page never confirms that and the band has remained pretty close mouthed. I think the rumors are true about the heroin though because there are clips of him being pretty out of it, sweating at the very start of a concert, even though he continues to play terrific guitar. Good musicians have excellent “muscle memory” and the addicts among them can be pretty blotto and go on. He looked like death though. So, even a control freak can be controlled, I suppose, when he plays with things too long that he would not want to come to the light of day and that are more powerful in their ability to control than the control freak himself.
Blake,
It was so helpful that you answered Todd’s question to take us through your processes and reasoning. I feel pretty good about my understanding of ENFJ Enneagram 8, but would not have known about enneagram 3 ENFJs. I would certainly have assessed them as another type before you brought this to our attention. I am now certain that one of my dearest friends from my distant past was an ENFJ 3. She was beautiful, strange, creative, and fascinating and I adored her. She slipped away just as you say they do. There was no reason, no falling out, no anything that makes sense to anyone. She did that with me and many other people. She was there with all her brightness and caught me in her wake as she collected so many others, but then she just surfed away. She had seasonal best friends and people she took under her wing even if they weren’t looking to be under her wing, she swept us there, and she was very intense and dramatic and then she was gone. When I say under her wing, it was not in the way an ENFJ E8 would do it. It was an ethereal yet every bit as forceful approach that is hard to put into words. Like most people who have exceeded a few decades, I’ve had plenty of people (some who were very close for a time) who moved in and then out of my life. I could always make sense of why we moved apart. I could never make sense of why she was there one day and then gone. I did recognize that was a pattern for her, but it still stung me. She was a fabulous actress and I could see her being a fantastic performance artist too. She was someone who could do dramatic, big expression, and oddness without looking crazy. It fit her. It suited her. She was the most enigmatic person I have ever met. She made sweeping changes in her life that were abrupt and sudden. From what I understand from the report of others, she has continued to do this decades later. They only learned this from an accidental crossing of paths because she abandoned them too.
Such a contrast to the ENFJ E8s. The two I mentioned before were no doubt E8. Maybe it is the E8s who tend towards plumpness.
I am now wondering about Helena Bonham Carter. Could she be one too? I will have to look more into her. If my memory serves me correctly, she seems like she may be somewhat similar to Bjork.
Yes, I have Helena Bonham Carter typed as a type 3 ENFJ. And funny you should mention it because she was one of the first people that made me realize what a type 3 ENFJ is.
I remember watching this interview with Craig Ferguson and found it to be the most funny improvisational banter I have seen between two people in any interview or talk show. I remember thinking if Helena was an Ne dominant because of the quick and easy way she comes up with funny answers or reactions to Ferguson’s high jinks.
I remember being stuck on ENFP for her (as I was for many of these type 3 ENFJs until I had my moment of clarity)(Also, ENTJ and ISFP too).
Then it all fell into place. I realized this is Ne id with Fe dominance.
Yes, many type 3 ENFJs can be very funny and spontaneous in the moment. But, also kind of dark and strange.
And sexy.
Carter has that hard and dark edge to her that definitely departs from ENFP. And I think she is more known for her being a dark, strange, and kinda of whacky sexy kind of chick.
Here is part 2 of the interview with Craig Ferguson.
And yeah, there is definitely a similarity between her and Bjork. Very definitely a similar sensibility and persona and all that.
I’ve never seen her in an interview before, I just noticed her choice of roles, have read some interviews and articles about her, and have seen the things she wears to award ceremonies and this is how I imagined her to be. What is funny though is that everything from her hair, her eyes, facial shape, affect, banter, and humor reminded me of my friend. It was uncanny. I never expected that. Yes, this is no ENFP and that is to be sure.
What type is Craig Ferguson do you think? They played well together at least for this interview. The banter was quite unexpected and fun.
What type is Craig Ferguson do you think?
You first.
Craig Ferguson is the Robin Williams type. 😉 Except more endearing somehow. Hyperactive humor.
Yeah, I see that too. I don’t know. I have thought sometimes that due to the “bawdy” nature of Ferguson’s humor (male genitalia, penis jokes, sexual innuendo) that he may be of the ESFP type. I get a kick out of him in every interview I’ve seen him do and one of his stand-up specials. Not too sure about him though type-wise.
Robin Williams was pretty bawdy too. I saw him in an arena setting and he spent most of time grabbing his package and referring to “Mr. Happy.” He also shined a spot light on a rather large woman moving through the audience and said, “things really are bigger in Texas.” He was always pretty irritating to me. A lot of people type him as an ENFP, but I don’t see it. They typically do not irritate me to the degree he did from the beginning. Not that it could not happen because any type has some folks who take on the most annoying aspects of the type. Thinking about it, I’d guess the ESFP type is most likely. He was too earthy, sentimental (in an over the top maudlin kind of way), hyper, and just too here and now and responsive to the environment and the physical to be an ENFP. At least that’s the way I see it.
I have felt guilty since posting that about Robin Williams. I feel compelled to explain that I actually liked something about him. It is just I never cared for his humor and did not really buy him in serious roles. His performances were very good and I can absolutely see why he got the kudos he did. I just did not buy him somehow as the people he played despite how perfect his performance may have seemed. I couldn’t and can’t still figure out why. I sounded harsher than I meant to.
I also get a kick out of Ferguson. Probably because I saw him in short doses. In these small doses he was always a zany, silly, quick witted and a delightful hoot.
https://youtu.be/vL60NdweaZ0
Jennifer Lawrence?
She’s often typed as ENFJ, but I don’t get a subtle dark vibe from her at all.
Blake, is some aspect or variation of this dynamic (lack of stable self; conflicting pull towards both stable commitment and freedom) present also in the Type 3 ENFP, owing to the presence of the same dominant and id functions (albeit in reversed placements)? Or does the aux/tertiary axis and/or the difference in the ‘types’ of Ne (e.g., Aries v. Sagittarius) and Fe (Pisces v. Cancer) result in a fundamentally different dynamic altogether?
Um, it is very similar in some ways and very different in others. I have often confounded the type 3 ENFJ and ENFP with each other, but, that is mainly because of the enneagram type 3 dynamics, which is expressive (Fe) and trying to live up to an outer ideal of perfection.
I think Marilyn Monroe was an type 3 ENFP. Compare her to Kate Bush.
Actually, I think type 3 ENFPs can be even more reluctant to commit to a path or a person because of their dominant Ne, which keeps them in a sea of perception.
They are more out there in a way. More impractical. Less earthy.
Then again, some type 3 ENFPs are very savvy and calculating.
I don’t know exactly how to explain it in this comment, but, there is a very palpable difference between the two types.
Scratch Marilyn Monroe as a type 3 ENFP now that I think more about it. She had Neptune in 1st house. Mimics NF types. Probaly an ESFP as is commonly ascribed to her.
Try the actress that was in American Beauty and Ghostworld. I think she shows a pretty good portrait of type 3 ENFP.
It could even be that Marilyn Monroe was an ISFP, despite her seeming extraversion. There is definitely a clusterfuck going on around ENFJ, ISFP, and ESFP. For me at least. But, I have noticed that ENFJs are often labelled as ISFPs.
Ohh, this just made me completely get the type of my friend who I thought was an ENFP but something seemed off, I never thought about ENFJ because she is so wild and I thought ENFJ’s wouldn’t be so much. But this makes total sense. She’s so sexy and an artist and she has extreme highs and lows like that. And she gets on extremely well with this ISFP friend, they both like to be wild 🙂 I love that word, wild. But the ISFP is wayy more phlegmatic and stable and kind of unemotional.
I like ENFJs 🙂 I was on this INFP thread once where someone said, for fun do the personality test and put in the answers that you wish applied to you, that your ideal self would put. And almost everyone got ENFJ. I don’t know if it that has much significance or anything but it was pretty cool. Its close to being what you called our “higher” version which is ESFJ. Actually can ESFJ’s be confused for this aswell? Cause of the Fe with Se id? Or are they generally more stable than this?
Now I’m starting to think that a couple of people I had typed as ENFP might actually be this type 3 ENFJ but I’m not sure. I guess you can tell an ENFP apart from the lack of NiSe but its hard to tell sometimes.
Also do ESFP’s often fall at type 3 aswell? I typed my ESFP friend as a 3w2 and she agrees though she generally thinks this stuff is all boring and pointless :p
I wish I had some up close and personal ENFJ in my life to study, but alas!
I wonder if I have but never noticed. My friend and I were discussing this and it seems like INTJ and ENFJ might maintain some kind of aloof distance from one another.
INTJ not all too keen to be sucked into the hassle or having ENFJ all up in their business, while ENFJ maybe skeptical of being so cynically dismissed.
It’s funny because two of my friends are best friends as an intj and enfj and the dynamic is somewhat like that, but they’re still tremendously close, and I think it might be because the enfj finds it refreshing to know exactly how the intj will react.. And the intj loves observing the spectacle. I think the enfj values the intj intellect as well, and likely vice versa but it’s harder for me to read the intj
Marilyn Monroe?
Yeah, I know. I fucked up, OK?
Actually, my comment came first. Ten minutes ahead of your original Marilyn comment. Funny. Yea, the things you were describing… Finding “Daddy” to take care of her, “look at me” attitude, putting on a show and dance, and bipolar definitely made me think of Marilyn.
OMG, I’ve just realised that I’ve known one of these ENFJ/enneatype 3 personalities for many years. She’s an amazing lady, who my ENTP partner befriended on a Greek island in the early 1990’s. She was born in Canada in the 1920s to an English father and trained as a ballet dancer when she was a young girl. She married a half-Latino lounge singer and moved to the USA, where they travelled extensively because of his career. They eventually settled in Los Angeles for a long time until he became ill. She decided to move to a city in northern Mexico, where a lot of US ex-pats had already established a thriving community of artistic types (including some famous writers, actors and singers). The healthcare in Mexico was far cheaper than America, so she could afford to pay for high quality residential care for her ailing husband.
She started to travel extensively around the world, which is how she happened to be in Greece when she met my partner. They bonded immediately, as they had much in common (including a capacity for mischief-making on an epic scale!)
I eventually got to meet her when she visited England, and soon became part of her extended “family”. Over the subsequent years, the three of us have shared many adventures as travelling companions, we have visited her home in Mexico and she has been to New Zealand after we emigrated here. The other places we’ve explored almost sound like the locations from a James Bond movie: Paris, Peru, Bali, Eastern Europe and Rajasthan in India.
She is in many ways the classic Enneatype 3 polymath; having been at various times a Hollywood actress, a screenwriter, an advertising copywriter and a writer for some very famous comedians. She seems to be friends with half of Hollywood, and gave my partner a stunning white gold ring which had links to Elvis himself. All of her many stories turned out to be true (if somewhat dramatised) events from her life.
She is now in her late nineties, living in a retirement home in Mexico as her sight finally became too poor for her to travel. We speak to her regularly and she has lost none of her spark and wit.
I get exhausted even thinking of how busy her life must have been to have accomplished so much. She had more energy packed into her petite little body than anyone I’ve ever met and even though I’m forty years her junior and almost twice her height I often struggled to keep up with her!
I guessed she was ENFJ during our many travels, and I can now see that Enneatype 3 also fits her sense of style and self-presentation. She would not be seen dead going out without her makeup, jewellery and a colour co-ordinated outfit and glamorous hat, even in her late eighties. We have a photo of her from her Hollywood days and she was a true beauty in her prime.
Stewart,
Your friend sounds inspirational and fascinating. Where do they get that drive and energy? If we could catch one of these unicorns, maybe we could gather some dust from their horn and sprinkle some in our morning coffee. I wouldn’t want to be one, but I’d like a tiny portion of what they have. 😉
And in another moment of extraordinary serendipity, my partner is currently watching a doco on the life of Reese Witherspoon, who strikes me as another possible archetypal ENFJ/Enneatype 3.
Reese Witherspoon? Really? I’d never have guessed. I would see her as an ESFJ type. She took on the traditional role of wife and mother at an early age, she appears confident, likes directing, is said to be bossy, and says that people (strangers) somehow trust her with their children. She said that last part when she described Sofia Vagara’s entrance into a restaurant where they met. She said that Sofia walking into a room turning heads was like a sexy woman with her hair blown back in a Pepsi commercial. She said people could not help but stop and stare. The interviewer asked her if that ever happens to her. She said, “no, never.” Then went on to describe how people seem to see her as a kind of friend and come up to her and hand her their babies and children and said she is always afraid she will drop them. She seems to be a Sally Field or Rachel Rae kind of person to me. She is charming. I don’t see that strange, odd, sexy darkness in her. Maybe it is well hidden.
You raise some good points, Rita, and I agree that Reese Witherspoon does look like an ESFJ in many ways.
It’s often very difficult to tell when a trained actor is being themselves or simply playing a role for the cameras, but type-guessing wouldn’t be as much fun if it were easy! 🙂
I still haven’t ruled out ENFJ/Enneatype three as a possibility though, as with that type even the “traditional role of wife and mother” can be part of the persona they are adopting. If she is a type 3 then she leans more towards having a type Two wing (if you subscribe to “wings” as a valid part of the Enneagram system).
And I’ve seen how effectively
Whoops, hit “post” too soon! I was going to comment on my ENFJ friend’s extraordinary ability to shift personas as easily as most people change their clothing.
Types with dominant Fe do this so naturally and effortlessly, that for much of the time it’s probably more of an automatic response than a conscious choice (in the same way that an INFJ effortlessly applies dom-Ni, or an INFP with Fi). Sometimes though, I’ve watched my friend use her Fe to purposely shapeshift when she has need of a specific persona.
Despite her age, she is in no way a “helpless old lady”, but she can play the part to perfection when she needs to. Navigating international airports is a breeze when you can summon a small army of helpers to wheel you along and carry your bags for you! And a frail elderly lady never has to stand in line to board the plane or wait to be served food and drink after she’s comfortably settled in the best available seat……
Hahaha 😀
What a wonderful con artist an ENFJ ennea 3 would make!
Stewart,
Your description of your friend just makes me smile. I get a picture of a charmingly crafty, sparkle eyed, and elderly enchantress.
Stewart,
I just meant on the surface of things she seemed to be an ESFJ, but I only know surface facts that I picked up here and there. What was it in the biography that made you think of Reese Witherspoon was is an ENFJ?
I take that back about Rachel Ray being in the category with Reese Witherspoon. I don’t think she is. Rachel seems to be decidedly more heavily yang in expression than Reese Witherspoon. Whereas Sally Field and Reese Witherspoon seem to be of the same type with a little more yin to them. I’m not only taking physiology, but something in their presentation. I cannot quite explain it, but it seems to be a kind of thing that comes through them.
Hi Rita, sorry it’s taken a wee while to get back to you!
My initial impression that Reese Witherspoon might be an ENFJ/Enneatype 3 was purely an Ni hunch, and (as usual) my Ni couldn’t be bothered to explain its reasoning.
However after a little digging, I found some quotes about (and by) her which are a bit more specific (and may explain what I was picking up intuitively).
These are from “Vogue”:
“What I liked is that there’s that determination, but there’s also a sense of humor and a sense of vulnerability. It must come from her family and upbringing. You sort of feel like if she sets her mind to something, it’s going to happen — nothing is going to get in her way. And that’s part of what keeps her interesting — and oddly a little dangerous.”
“In terms of public perception, she’s thought of as America’s Sweetheart. And she kind of is in a lot of ways. But I think that she’s a lot bawdier than that, a lot more raucous. It did actually shock me to see that. She’s tough. You wouldn’t want to get into an argument with her at all.”
“Today she is sweet, relaxed, and full of thoughtful questions; but she is also a very sharp and funny lunch companion, and some of her retorts have real teeth. For example, if you don’t talk as rat-a-tat fast as she does, she has a habit of finishing your sentences for you, but with her own particular take on things. At one point we were talking about fashion, and I said, “People who love fashion often. . .”
“. . .Lack perspective?” she said with a comically judgmental look on her face.”
Some of her own quotes:
“You know, it can be a crazy life. Sometimes you feel like you are on a speeding train and you just don’t know where it’s going. You can start to lose your identity and what it is that you are really working for.”
“I’m the classic Type A personality and I’ve even named by little production company Type A films because I have a strong tendency towards being compulsive and anxious. But I’m trying to be less tightly wound inside. I don’t start ranting about why this actress got this part and how I didn’t. Those kind of things are usually out of your control anyway so I’ve tried to be less aggressive in my approach to work.”
“I’ve always been a little bit of a tomboy that way, so I just always enjoy the thrill of doing something dangerous.”
No problem Stewart,
You could be right about her. I don’t know. I read some more quotes from her and I am beginning to think she could be an ENFP instead. She is smart, has vision, is ambitious, kind of a badass, but she has that optimistic thing going. She wants to lift people up. She does not engage in that catty Gwyneth Paltrow stuff about putting other people (usually women) down in an effort to make herself look good. She has that enthusiasm that is crazy. She has a quick mind and is talkative and says she will share her opinion. “I get crazy in a bookstore. My heart beats hard because I want to buy everything.” When she sees something she doesn’t like, she decides to make changes. Not enough female leads, gets mad, then asks herself why she is mad, and then decides to do something about it by making movies herself and casting women in lead roles. That seems to be the Reese Witherspoon way. She seems quite resilient.
I don’t know if I’m right or not about this. I just don’t get that slightly darker layer from her that you will find in an ENFJ. I don’t mean she does not have darkness in her. Who doesn’t? I just mean that it isn’t a fuel system with the wild eyed burning vision you will see/feel emanating from these types. Look at all the people that Blake has cast as an ENFJ (E3 or E8), Reese Witherspoon seems to be quite something else. She does have charm in spades though.
I am not entirely sure she is not an ESFJ though. She does seem to recall tradition and family influence quite a bit. She also is known to read and memorize lines very quickly. Si would be good for that. I can see Fe, Si, Ne, Ti being a possibility for her. I could believe ESFJ or ENFP, but ENFJ seems less likely to me after considering it. I really don’t know for sure though.
With regards to typing artists, would you say Daniel Gildenlow (below ) is ENFJ?
He is the one who writes this stuff and all the rock-opera concepts, while being a Physics major.
Frontman of one of my favourite bands. Been puzzled by his type for a while. Wavering between INFJ and ENFJ, unless there can be some highly artistic Thinkers.
http://youtu.be/nQWAH962ZDI
http://youtu.be/Oj54HJkG1rM
This one is about friendship strained by environment and circumstance.
https://youtu.be/Phd48YT18vY
Oh lovely Rita! Thanks 🙂
I’m glad you liked it, Piggie. It has always been a favorite of mine. Learning about the background of artist’s, their source of inspiration, and interpersonal dynamics fascinates me. Robert Plant wrote the lyrics of that song after touring America for a bit and noticing the tension in ethnic and racial relations and the disparity of treatment of non-Europeans. So, sometimes looking into the bands leads to some sweet discoveries.
On the flip side, you may discover some less than savory tidbits when you look “behind the music.” For humor’s sake, here is one of the funniest SNL skits of all time in my estimation:
http://www.popscreen.com/v/72PTC/Neil-Diamond-Storytellers
Is Will Ferrell perchance an ENFJ? He does dark humor excellently.
I swear some of my typos are the result of the world’s worst autocorrect. I can screw up just fine all on my own, so it does not need to be so helpful. Gggggrrrr!
Ugh! I’m so over this prolonged and intense Scorpio vibe we’ve been collectively mired in for months. I’m reminded of it every day as I walk home from work. It’s midwinter in the Southern Hemisphere, so it’s dark when I finally escape from the lab where I work as a forensic scientist. Winter in Auckland is very mild compared to London, and on a cloudless evening the night sky is a glory to behold. The stars and planets are so bright they take my breath away!
Three planets are visible in the early evening: bright, ostentatious Jupiter is descending in the West, while the subdued heaviness of Saturn and the blood red light of Mars shine directly overhead. In astrological terminology, Mars is currently transiting though the Zodiacal sign of Scorpio, and the associated constellation of Scorpius can be clearly seen close by the two dominant planets at the midheaven.
Now, Mars was the ancient ruler of Scorpio, long before Pluto was discovered, so its transit through this deep and intense sign is relected on Earth by a noticable Scorpionic turn of events. And it has indeed been a dark and disturbing time, marred by terror, violence, attempted coups and displays of extreme intolerance. For several weeks Mars was in retrograde motion, before he slowed to a halt and began slowly creeping forwards once more, like a freediver plunging into the ocean depths until his breath is almost gone and he must return to the surface or perish. And isn’t it curious that the lead up to the UK Brexit referendum occurred during the temporary reversal of Mars’ sojourn though Scorpio? On the very day when Britain decided it wanted to “retrograde” its fortunes out of the EU to return to a perceived Golden Age of Empire, Mars was hanging virtually motionless in the sky above. Whether or not you believe in Astrology, the symbolism is extraordinary.
It strikes me as terribly sad that our race seems to have forgotten the importance of honouring the Shadow side of human nature; that the Underworld harbours secret treasures as well as monsters and ghosts. And so we wage war on the Darkness and slaughter the monsters, and by doing so drive them deeper into Hades to nurse their resentments and bargain with the Devil for the power to strike back at the Light.
The true lesson of Scorpio is one of transformation, not poison and death. Only when the Dark Side of the Moon is approached with courage, curiosity and acceptance, can the scorpion shed its base nature and soar into the sky with the wings of an eagle!
@Stewart
“It strikes me as terribly sad that our race seems to have forgotten the importance of honouring the Shadow side of human nature.”
Yes.
Stewart,
Your description of your walk home, observations of astronomical observations of your Southern Hemisphere night sky and the astrological influences of these on current societal attitudes and the darker regressive mood of our recent times was beautiful. I too am tired of this, but am of the mind that the dark ages never stopped. There was never a true golden age, but only pockets of illumination that seemed to offer promise of a collective evolution. Then the pendulum swings back to regressiveness.
These words of yours do speak to me though:
“The true lesson of Scorpio is one of transformation, not poison and death. Only when the Dark Side of the Moon is approached with courage, curiosity and acceptance, can the scorpion shed its base nature and soar into the sky with the wings of an eagle!”
Always generating, destructing, deconstructing, reconstructing, and resurrecting in new ways seems to be not only the individual INFJ way, but also humanity’s own path and tendency. All this does take “courage, curiosity, and acceptance” just as you say.
“Do you believe there is a demimonde, Mr. Chandler? A half world between what we know and what we fear? A place in the shadows, rarely seen, but deeply felt. Do you believe that?”
– Vanessa Ives, Penny Dreadful
Stewart: “Do you believe there is a demimonde, Mr. Chandler? A half world between what we know and what we fear? A place in the shadows, rarely seen, but deeply felt. Do you believe that?” – Vanessa Ives, Penny Dreadful
I am not Mr. Chandler, nor do I know Penny Dreadful, but I do believe. Do you?
I do believe and sometimes, when the conditions are just so and if I shift my perceptions in a certain way, I catch a glimpse or two of the other realms hidden within our own.
If you like dark Gothic fantasy, then check out Penny Dreadful, a British-American TV series set in Victorian London. In lesser hands, the concept of well known characters from Frankenstein, Dracula, The Picture of Dorian Gray, The Wolf Man and others meeting and interacting could have been silly and melodramatic. What we got instead was something special: marvelous writing, a strong cast and exquisite visuals and music.
Of particular note was Eva Green’s extraordinary portrayal of Vanessa Ives, an original character created for the show. An intelligent, introverted heroine of immense strength battling demonic forces, she steals every scene she is in.
It sounds interesting, especially the Vanessa Ives character. Thanks for the recommendation.
I know the above ramblings should really be in the previous Scorpio Id discussion, but I spent so long pondering that by the time I was ready, the topic had closed to new comments. Classic case of INFJ procrastination!
BTW Blake, I note that only the most recent post is now accepting new comments. Is this a deliberate change of policy or just a glitch? Just curious, I’d actually understand if you wanted to focus attention on the newest posts.
BTW Blake, I note that only the most recent post is now accepting new comments. Is this a deliberate change of policy or just a glitch? Just curious, I’d actually understand if you wanted to focus attention on the newest posts.
I have closed comments on any articles over two weeks old. Part of the reason is that I have a forum coming where people may start threads on stuff related to my articles or on other stuff. Some of my articles have enough comments and further comments become kind of redundant.
I think a forum would work better for the nature of many comments. People can start threads on a topic and others may chime in.
On my articles, I prefer comments to stay mostly with the nature of the article. But, in the spirit of discourse and encouraging discussion, I have been pretty lenient in this regard.
So, stay tuned for the forum!
OK, I’ve changed it to comments will be closed on articles older than a year. I’m mostly trying to close comments on that article of mine that has like 500 fucking comments! Tired of comments on that article yes I am 🙂
OK OK, I’ve just figured out how to close comments for one article. So, I’ve closed comments on that one article I referenced. All others are fair game!
We’ll see how that goes.
Excellent, I look forward to the new forum!
@Blake
“What changed my mind? Hmm, hard to say. Some realization I had about Fe and how it can be pretty harsh and cold if it wants to be. Also, realizing that Te is really a no-go for show business typically even if it is under the auspices of the enneatype 3, which I saw as kind of softening and making the Te more expressive. I’ve since abandoned that and just come to the conclusion that this is Fe dominance and not Te dominance. Te is a straight-line function. It has it’s shit together and efficient and with the minimum of expressivity and color.”
I really like when you share your learning process.
I think of Te as “efficiently cutting out the human element”. Get there efficiently and in a way that can be replicated.
Hey Blake, just spread my wings from the nest to soar as a Starling and I want to say I really appreciate all of your articles. Excellent quality. I bring this post up also because you mentioned you previously had a bit of uncertainty about ENFJ 3s and ENFP.
I think there are many ENFPs who may be mistyping as other introverted Romantics like INFJ/INFP’s due to their being “the most introverted of the extroverted types” [Wiki], especially since many of those ENFPs mistyping themselves as introverted may be highly ((manic-)) depressive/avoidant of social environments that trigger their anxiety.
Would you shed more light on the less bubbly and more neurotic/enigmatic ENFP personalities like Type 4w3? Especially techniques on how to alleviate the histrionic manic-depressive Fe id like how with an INFJ’s Fi id, the solution is expressing Fe.
Using the same logic of expressing the auxiliary, I get meditation (using Fi to think about your values and priorities) would help a scatter-brained ENFP, but won’t that make them more introverted and within themselves instead of experiencing reality? I guess like a Ni-Ti loop of INFJ, some less emotional and driven and self-serving or adventurous dabbling ENFPs get into a Ne-Te dynamic, but if the unhealthy withdrawn ENFP has learned helplessness from poor life references and influences, how do they summon that inner strength to be extroverted charismatic and cunning and driven even if truly they are secretly disingenuous, attention-seeking, and self-serving? I would think that with a great imagination and great emotion (in my own experience) an ENFP would be great at imagining references where there are none to succeed like high-flying balloons and attaching/grounding those imagined references with passion like a balloon string until they are dilly-dallying in a thunderstorm and opportunity strikes like lightning, they grab hold of it and increase 100x the Te they have been using steadily to make changes and tweaks in their lives and with this crossroads, they ride on their Te and become superhuman like Tony Robbins aggressively pursuing their goals.
For introverted ENFPs, is their solution to figure out how to discipline themselves including through Te structure including to “just do it” and meet new people/choose an outlet to express? Then they can say “No I will not have a Fe id tantrum, let me use Fi to think about what is important and how to solve my problems and meditate so Ne does not overwhelm me and distract my focus to the outer world, and then I will initiate change in my life through Te structure/decisiveness”? Hypothesizing.
I am a Pisces, Scorpio Moon ENFP Type 4w3 (Individualist Achiever Wing 3 ‘Aristocrat’ as opposed to Individualist Investigator Wing 5 ‘Bohemian’), who mistyped as INFJ but I am looking for authority on an ENFP self-actualization article similar to INFJ using Fe. There’s a lot of feeling there with Fi auxiliary, Fi Scorpio Moon, Pisces (1/2 Fe, 1/2 Fi), Fe id (1/2 Pisces, 1/2 ????), so perhaps the trick is balance and becoming more Thinking type like using Te while retaining passionate feeling? This is my theory, but I believe an article on reducing contact with (?) the Fe id would be of great value, if not of great interest to all the boys in the yard.
I don’t deserve personalized attention in a comment, but only request consideration for another ENFP article that helps with their id and becoming their best self, which I believe you said was INFJ for ENTP so maybe INTJ is the ideal though I don’t know why unless ENFPs actually do need to be less goofy and colder/’cooler’ though you wrote they were hipster cool cats that are disloyal (paraphrasing).
Best to you anyways.
A beautiful peice on a beautiful personality type. One of my favorites in fact.
My sister and a close friend are both ENFJs… But the type you speak of.
My ENFJ 3. She’s radiates….whatever she radiates at the time so vibrantly and with such (intensity isn’t the word) it just shoots out of her. It is. And it’s brilliant. Those eyes.
You’d be lucky to know one, lucky to get a glimpse of the Ni, Ti… All that you’ve illustrated.
I just love to sit back and let her be her. She flies away, comes back.
Her art so bold and full of color.
Her unwavering everything, the Fe… Has helped to stand firmly in my own batch of cognitive processes.
Michelle, my belle, I love you.
Funny you mention behinds as I have caught myself staring plenty. And in not even… But she’s all of it.
Be still my…
Thanks for writing this.
You’re welcome!
I’m an enfj and some points were spot on but not all. I love kids! I’ve volunteered for years in youth service, and you know what? It was because kids get me, and I get kids, we are on the same level, and I’d hate if any adult was disrespectful of them. I am a protector at heart, I find it difficult to stand up for myself but I would fight tooth and nail for the ‘victim, down trodden, underdog’
That comment you said about enfjs not liking kids is not for me, I was like what the fuck!?
I’ve got a son and he’s my life, we have an amazing bond and we talk about everything, he comes to me rather than his dad because he knows I will sit and listen to him without judgement. I’m very proud of him.
I am married to an INTP have been married for 12 years, got married when we were 19 and I have had him on a pedestal this whole time, I admire him and adore him.
One thing that made me laugh was how you describe them like read head harlets – you know what I’m a red head! Haha and I’m bipolar and borderline too 🤣 but that’s because of the trauma of living with two narcissistic parents, one violent one coercive. When I had my son I vowed never to be like them and I have though spent my life living to please everyone to the point of breakdown, self harm and suicide. I literally was a chameleon and felt like I had had no fucking identity and the way you say the enfj is manipulative really hurts because im not manipulative at all I just can’t deal with conflict and need to act in a way to best please people to prevent hostility. My husband has supported me with this and helped me create my own voice and be comfortable in my own skin.
You are right that we don’t like to be tied down but not in relationships, I want to feel the deepest connection with my partner, I want to swallow him hole and understand him fully, but I live for doing stuff, I get bored in the house so in the past couple years as I’ve grown in to a fuller person who knows their own mind I’ve focused on my career and hobbies, also created a life mission which is ‘ to inspire (and show) people to love themselves, accept themselves and be the best person for them’ that what I want to do, that’s what drives me and I feel passionate about.
Your right about the emptiness though, but I think it’s down to the trauma n ptsd, I feel things so deeply I don’t think people understand and it makes me feel alone.
I wonder is enfjs are formed through an abuse cycle only because I’ve got experience from suffering and dealing with a long term mental health problem and I feel it’s molded me in to this person. All my friends see me as being very stable but I never let them see my darkness, I disappear if it comes, I isolate myself and only my husband I let in, he’s an angel with his logicians mind.
I went out drinking last night which I’ve not done in years and all the other women looked so ‘trendy’ and beautifully presented, I really don’t conform at all but I have my own style, I’m not what I call glossy but I like to ooze mystery and beautiful oddness so I get what you say about that and yeah I likey butt too!!! 😁
Hi Heather!
I’m an ENFJ thingy too. 🙂
The kids thing in the article resonated with me. But I get what you’re saying, some things did not resonate with me either. But there is a forest / tree view that I think Blake is getting at. While we all might not be exactly the same, there are trends which can be largely categorized. While I would love to have children or a child someday, I could see what Blake was getting at. I have cats and used to hate having the attention more so on the cats than me. Silly, I know. But I think ENFJs crave attention. Which can lead to the next point you made – manipulation. I don’t necessarily consider this a bad word. It has a bad connotation, but in essence, I just look at this word as: doing something different, unseen, or unperceived to get a (personally) desired result. I almost think this a compliment! Oh dear, lol. We have the capability of reading people and foreseeing desirable outcomes to the point of moving a chess piece, if you will, in our favor – OR it could be the favor of someone else or another group of people. Maybe manipulation gets such a bad rep because of its cloak-y guise. It can also get a bad rep because its a power that can be used for good or evil and sometimes it gets used for evil and sometimes unintentionally. It’s hard not to see something up ahead and not do something about it to sway the cards in your direction or otherwise.
Also, I think you bring up a good point about how ENFJs are born/develop. I have a mother who drowned my sister and I with love – still does. Always hugging and kissing and telling us how wonderful we were/are. My father on the other hand, did not have that approach. He tried and still does but it’s very hard for him. It’s true for all, our childhoods shape us. So I wonder if my very unbalanced attention/love from the different sexes/parent figures had something to do with who I am today.
We sound about the same age, give or take a year. Interesante.
Heyo! ENFJ here too, but a lot younger.
I’m thinking there could be some correlation with age and the feelings that this article brought up. It was… strange, to say the least, reading this article because every line hit me so hard in its accuracy and honesty.
In relation to children, I understand what the article was getting at. For me, it’s a fact that yes, I dislike being in competition for attention. However, I don’t agree that children are any competition for attention, they’re on a different playing field fighting for a type of attention we don’t require.
I do agree with the fact that ENFJ’s don’t like being tied down and having a lack of freedom. I absolutely adore children and get along with them so well, but the thought of having my own kids and being restricted from the freedom of excelling in my career and seeing the world does scare me and make me consider having children at a much older age.
Overall, this article was insanely weird to read. It was just too spot on in too many ways, especially in my 20s. God, I’d love to meet another ENFJ because this article makes it sound like they’re so interesting to watch, and of course they are as I am one, but I’d love to try doing the watching for once and see what it’s like for everyone else.
Hi, Jules.
What do you mean by “I don’t agree that children are any competition for attention, they’re on a different playing field fighting for a type of attention we don’t require.”
Whoa…this is super accurate. I’ve never, ever read anything like it before, and I feel like I’VE READ EVERYTHING. lol.
ENFJ
3w4 (though I feel like I flip between wing 2 and 4)
Tritype: 3w4, 8w9, 7w8
Stacking: SX/SO
Astrology: Gemini Sun, Aquarius Moon, Leo Rising
yeah how nuts!!?!? ENFJ too and i got goosebumps reading this wtf.
I am an ENFJ and I have no idea what I just read but is not me
Then either you’re not an ENFJ or there are things about yourself you don’t know yet.
Do you think ENFJs are susceptible to borderline personality disorders or is this a stupid question?
I think this is a fascinating question. So much so that I will probably have to write more about this later… because otherwise my mind will probably not be at ease until then, ha.
And I know this question is not directed to me, but I will say that in my understanding of ENFJs and BPD, it is hard to image any other personality type being more predisposed to a cluster B personality disorder, particularly BPD. Most people understand the hallmark of BPD to be ABANDONMENT issues/the extreme avoidance of abandonment; it’s this which tends to drive the other diagnostic criteria for BPD… intense relationships involving extremes of idealization/devaluation, impulsivity, unstable/intense moods, anger, unstable self-image, suicidal behaviors, and so on.
Of course, being an ENFJ does not at all mean that a particular person is even slightly close to having BPD… but I know that’s probably not what you were suggesting anyways. The ABILITY to develop behaviors that would meet the criteria for BPD, and to a clinically severe degree, would be present I would image in anyone who is an ENFJ.
I would also argue that an ENFJ, with the help of someone else (this part would be key), would have the potential to overcome BPD tendencies, perhaps more readily than many other personality types. Again, in my humble opinion 🙂
Totes!
I don’t think it’s a stupid question, but I don’t know. I always thought INFP was the borderline type.
Why thank you.
@carlie, what healthcare setting do you work in? Is it primarily psych? Facility? Hospital?
For the past 2.5 years I’ve worked specifically in mental health/psych. Before that I worked in women’s health. Now it’s mostly in an outpatient/office setting in a community clinic but I also work in an a few in-patient/facilities/hospitals 1-3 times a month, so it’s a little all over the place. Big picture, I haven’t been working in psych very long & my experience is relatively pretty limited. But I do get to talk with people on a daily basis about their feelings and shit. Which is pretty cool. And kinda forces you to start picking up on/learning shit whether you like it or not. Ha. But I’m pretty heavy on emphasizing the subjective nature of psychology/psychiatry when I see people professionally. You can do a disservice, and quite honestly, some damage if you’re not careful. A borderline diagnosis is one which I personally believe takes quite a long time to accurately establish. Too much shit in life can make humans exhibit some of those behaviors for a period of time. But when the patterns are deeply embedded, it is one of the “diagnoses” that people can experience the most dramatic improvements in with some work. Which is really nice. And now I’m rambling. Ha. Sorry.
I also rambled on more about your question, which I find really interesting (as an ENFJ myself), in a post on the forum…and now I’m not so sure about the abandonment thing with ENFJs. It seems there’s a certain type of, I don’t know, independence, in the whole ENFJ temperament that doesn’t quite fit with BPD, as much as other traits could be similar. Anyways, it’s interesting!
Forum?
Anyways, you should stop running around and settle down with CDI. 🙂
Yeah, the Stellar Maze discussion forum. You’re on there, right?
What is CDI??
Truth is, I like the mix between in-patient & outpatient. I appreciate the opportunity to develop lasting relationships with patients & see positive outcomes in the outpatient setting; but I also appreciate the opportunity to be there for people during crisis in the in-patient setting, when people need support & patience more than any other time in their life.
Clinical documentation improvement/integrity.
But if you like helping patients as much as it looks, you probably won’t be interested. If you ever go that route, we can talk shop. No, I’m not a nurse.
Hmm, yeah, that sounds like interesting work. And important work. For now, I love what I do. That is, when I don’t hate it. Love-hate. How very ENFJ of me. Ha.
I just find people so fucking fascinating. So even when I get exhausted or pissy with it, the fascination keeps me coming back for more.
hmmmm:)
Hi Blake! Hope you are safe in quarantine. Is Prime Minister Justin Trudeau an ENFJ 3w2? He seems like such a family man. What type would his wife be? I really like him as a person.
I posted in the other article (type 8) and you mentioned INFP with ENFJ is like beauty and the beast type relationship. I’m really intrigued. I really wish there was more information on what they are like in real life. Everything else I read is always harping about how amazingly helpful and compassionate they are. Is it better to just stay away from ENFJ men in general?
I don’t know if you watch the anime Naruto, but Naruto’s dad Minato is said to be an ENFJ 1w2.
LOL. I am a Pisces Sun, Moon, Mercury, and North Node, ENFJ, Type 3w4. thank you, know you know me better than anyone and you see me! you really see me!
I am an ENFJ-T 3w2, and a lot of this felt eerily accurate. I’ve taken personality tests from time to time but I never really feel like my perspective is captured, but the combination of ENFJ and enneagram 3 has seemed to do it.
A few things; I really love kids. I’m a nanny so I’m always around children and I love the kids I watch so much. Perhaps it’s the w2 part of my personality, but I think also that I have some major intimacy issues and kids are very innocent, and so I have a much easier time opening up and being myself around them.
I do want everyone to like me. I want people to think I’m capable, cool, confident. I want them to respect me. I don’t particularly care if people agree with my opinions, but I want them to respect my opinions and the line of thought that got me there. I really can’t handle it if I think someone thinks I’m incapable or dumb.
Maybe it’s the turbulent part of myself, but I hate the part of myself that is obsessed with people’s evaluations of me. One of the biggest internal struggles of my life is fighting against what I intuit a person wants of me or expects of me and giving my actual opinion. I’m pretty good at reading a person and almost subconsciously tweak parts of myself to mesh better with them. But I fight against that a lot. It is manipulative and I want that to stop.
I have also ruined a few dear relationships because I shut down. In truth, I made mistakes that at the time seemed irredeemable to my character and I couldn’t stand them thinking less of me as a person. Those are some of the biggest regrets of my life.
I’m very protective of the intimate relationships in my life, it’s hard to open up. While we’re evaluating the psychological aspects of all this it’s probably because I’m afraid to be judged and deemed a bad person. But I am incredibly loyal to the people who I trust, perhaps to a fault. That might also me the w2 in me though, I don’t know.
Anyway, reading this was very cathartic and presented me with some ugly realities about myself. I really enjoyed the read, thank you.
Wtf? Kate is clearly an INFP 4. You can type her INFJ, ISFP and 9, but ENFJ makes absolutely no sense.
I can see INFP moon for her.
hi guys! I typed out as a Enfj 3 a few years ago and I just wanted to provide some insight. I feel the author of this article really does have a clear and strong grasp of the inter workings of our minds, so much so when I read this article I had to laugh! I was an actor in highschool so it was really funny when you really nailed down the “changing facade” part of it. The thing is that we Enfj 3s don’t really realise we are doing so: it’s something that is naturally built into our deep subconscious. Over the years, I’ve been becoming more and more aware of this happening as I get to different settings. When I get to separate social groups, no matter who, I always want to be one of the people driving the conversations, so sometimes I’ll change a bit to really connect with people and make them feel as I do. Also, on the topic of the introverted intuition, I feel was VERY correct. I can’t explain it, but I’ve always had an inner drive so powerful to be someone like a household name of a sort. My feelings are controlled by this drive, and I feel if anything blocked me from my path of success I would either have to push through or break down and cry. I really dont plan on harming people because I change personas, actually quite the opposite. I want them to benefit from it; I want them to see a person who in their specific eyes is perfect yet relatable at the same time. Our whole lives it’s been that way and its excruciating because sometimes we don’t want to pull the all nighter for that extra pizzazz in our presentations. Sometimes we’re too tired. The thing is, if we don’t have the presentation that is automatically the most show stopping we tear ourselves down. Luckily, most people always do, but at times it gets unhealthy. Lastly, it’s very hard to type us. Prior to figuring out my mbti type, I would always type intp, entp, or entj. Your article went very in depth to why that is and why enfj 3s have that tendency. We have personas that sometimes last for years, but at our core it’ll always revert back to enfj 3. Fyi my name will be in the headlines in a decade I kid you not.