You know what I’m thinking about? I’m thinking about Christopher Walken in the movie, Communion. I’m thinking about Jeff Bridges in Starman. I’m thinking about David Lynch in every movie he made.
Isn’t there something beyond human in INTJs? They don’t belong here. Which reminds me. I’m thinking of Thom Yorke in the song, Creep. Not to mention Jonny Greenwood, the guitarist on same song. Not to mention just about any INTJ that has ever existed. They are all staccato and strange. Inhuman. But not in that robotic way of INTP. No, it is more that they are organic creatures from another planet. And they are trying on the human experience.
Because the human experience is a feeling thing.
I’m thinking of John Lennon. What is it about INTJs? They are so genius. So alienesque. They are like visitors.
Do I need to even bring up Yoko Ono? Many people would rather forget her. Myself included. But, seriously ponder her for a bit. Get stoned and think about Yoko Ono. I dare you. You’ll be crying for your momma in no time.
INTJs are really hard to write about. In a sense there is nothing to say. They are so other. And there is something defiantly minimalist about them. Yet, there is something that they reveal that no other type can. Something truly alien. And scary. And creepy. Some aspects of human experience that only they are privy to. Something so dark and icy. And yet, many of them function just fine. Very capable souls, these INTJs. And dedicated to something extraordinary.
As a matter of fact, some of the greatest geniuses that have ever lived were INTJs. I mean, the list goes on and on. INTJ is basically synonymous with genius. At the top of their game they can revolutionize whole worlds of thought. Create epic closed systems such as psychoanalysis or communism or objectivism. I mean, these are the thinkers of the whole realm of thinkers.
And yet, they remain silent in some way. Eclipsed. Inhuman. Unrecognized. Unknown. It is like they can pass their whole lives among mere mortals and never be discovered or known. Think I’m joking? Well, remember Emily Dickinson. She was discovered after she was dead. Lived most of her life as a recluse in a room writing poetry.
And this is what I’m saying. And this is what I’m talking about. Do you feel me? Do you feel the weight of these INTJs?
So arrogant. So independent. And I don’t mean independent like some liberal hipster means “independent.” I mean that these motherfucking aliens can live their whole lives working away at great and epic things and pass people in the street and no one knows who they are. No one knows what their struggles are. They are lost to human sympathy. Do you know how painful that is?
And these INTJs go on so capably and so quietly. They are figuring shit out. They are figuring out shit that non-INTJs have no idea of. And they can go on like this for years and years without any hint of balking. They can enter realms no other human has ever entered. And they can stay there for years and years traversing this alien and icy world that no one has ever dared to set foot on. And they can do it without recompense and without reward.
And then one fine day their minds can break into smithereens all because of the simple lack of a feeling impulse to tether them. So sad, so tragic. It is the stuff of true nightmares.
And unlike INFJs they have no need to be known as people. So, they just go on until they can’t.
Well, there is something here that commands my veneration and respect. It leaves me in a state of awe to ponder these lone souls. These cat souls who can fly off into worlds we know not of. I mean, I have no words to express it, but, o, how I want to pay them homage.
INTJs are really something to be pondered. They can’t really be spoken of properly. I suggest finding an instance of their kind and putting their picture up on your bedroom wall and each day as you awake to spend the first ten minutes or so of your day looking at them and pondering them. Who are they? How are they? How could they be?
The upshot of this is that you won’t need drugs anymore. No, this activity will leave you in a state of calm surrealism. It’s not a psychedelic vibe. It’s not a drowsy vibe. No, it’s other. And that is what we are looking for from drugs, right? So, put a little INTJ into your slipstream.
Try to figure out what John Lennon saw in Yoko Ono. It’s important, you know. These things are the stuff of our lives. Whole cultures have arisen from these meditations.
But, you probably won’t. Because you don’t have time. It seems so silly. So beside the point. Because you want to stay comfortable and cozy. Who would do such a thing? Only clowns. Only weirdos.
Has anyone truly understood Mr. Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche? Do we not only see the “evil” side of him? These INTJs are so misunderstood. But, they can tell us something about ourselves because they are outside of us.
They are visitors. And we are animals in cages.
And have you heard the INTJ message of love?
For shame, child.
I see you had some fun today 😉 I will have to look up Emily Dickinson’s poetry, I remember I liked her work in high school. O the teenage angst 🙂
The Soul selects her own Society —
Then — shuts the Door —
To her divine Majority —
Present no more —
Unmoved — she notes the Chariots — pausing —
At her low Gate —
Unmoved — an Emperor be kneeling
Upon her Mat —
I’ve known her — from an ample nation —
Choose One —
Then — close the Valves of her attention —
Like Stone —
That’s beautiful, what made you choose that poem?
—
It’s all that I have to bring today,
This, and my heart beside
This, and my heart, and all the fields
And all the meadows wide
———
I think I could relate to this one. The most beautiful gift that God gave us was the ability to love one another. That’s why I try to be nice to everyone and love on them. It’s the most rewarding and beneficial experience for the one who receives the love and the one who gives it. To me loving is giving and caring and loving unconditionally. Although, I’m far from that ideal lol but I do try super hard.
THE REASON I CHOSE THAT POEM IS…
because I like it.
Lol … Me too. That’s the… Fi kind of love, right?
Yes, it is very Fi, which means extremely exclusive. The one love and that is all.
I know 🙂 I remember from The Culture of like post. That poem is really beautiful. I could relate to it a lot with my old romance. Thank you for sharing and I hope you have another good day lol
It’s funny that you mention yoko Ono. My brother and I were talking about her the other day. He’s 21 and describes everything this way, but he said she was weird. I remember as a child I found her to be a curious woman shrouded in mystery. She has a sort of surreal quality to her existence. I wonder about her, but truly don’t know anything aside from rumors, and I can’t imagine how hard her life was after watching the man that she cared about shot before her eyes.
Have you pondered your Yoko Ono today? You know, she is so hard to see. And one and one and one is three…
… Lol … You totally are an entp I just know it.
My (limited knowledge) and ability to reason this is because… Wait no is there a such thing as enfp? Maybe that’s it. You care about ppl alot more than just reasoning and logic so… You might have an f. You are very intuitive. You can tell things (very easily) that aren’t obvious.
And also you obviously have a generally more positive outlook on entp which may suggest that you can relate more to one or are an entp yourself.
Plus, that statement is just about as dr Seuss as you get 🙂
I know you can’t tell me but one day I will figure this out! And why I am doing this when I could be laying by the pool, I have no freakin idea
Yes, yes, he’s ENTP.
I know, right? I know that I’m not that smart but I’m pretty sure I’m right. At any rate, I know this for sure….
He’s AWESOME and that’s what’s important
Here’s my INFJ contribution: I think Blake, “not being afraid to explore the limits of the human condition”, as he said in his own words, is an ENFJ.
I guess I’m the first one to suggest this here? I’ve only seen ENTP guesses until now, but I might have missed a comment.
Anyway, I would be really disappointed if this is revealed any time soon. 😉
Hey Todd, what makes you think so? Maybe if we get it right he will give us a cookie. ^_^
Actually… Yea I thought that was possible as well because of his interest and care for ppl. It would make sense with the F. Additionally, he’s def intuitive and it has that. But I would have to know him a bit longer but I could’ve sworn he had a flexible and adaptable personality which would make him a p. him being an enfj would make sense though as well. It’s def plausible. Sorry I don’t really know much about this. But yea..
I apologize that my earlier response was so jumbled. I was in a line at universal studios trying to pass the time ^_^ (not trying to make you jealous or anything) lol but yea.
What I was so ineloquently trying to say is…
(I’m sorry I know I’m not even half as smart as you guys but here goes)
Artur- I agree with you. There is a definite possibility that Blake is an ENFJ.
1. He cares a lot about people and relationships and he’s very warm, which may indicate he has the F… Thing
2. He has a deep understanding of personality types and people, which indicates that he is intuitive.
3. We all just assume he’s an extrovert for the most part
Yeah, I got the F-thing. That’s for sure.
The stage is a maze. The flock and the Shepard, the characters. Do you flail about lost? Let the Shepard be your guide. We navigate the archetypes of humanity.
More madman than actor, though clearly a bit of both. Stealth revelations of self through writing. Indeed, “the clearest expression and visibility of introverted intuition.”
I’m sorry Sham, but I just have to say…
That’s just so cool 🙂 and I think I get it. <3 very poetic
Sham:
Yea he’s definitely intuitive as you so poetically put it his writing reveals, “The clearest expression and visibility of introverted intuition,”
Do you agree that he’s dominant with the Feeling function or the thinking function?
Speaking as an INTJ, I can say with certainty that “anonymity” is my most valued possession, and one that I would probably not part with at any price.
I’m an academic researcher who is expected to make a name for myself and to develop an international reputation as an expert in my field, and while I cannot accept being a failure in my career, I experience anxiety over the fact that the more successful I become, the less anonymous I will be.
This is a dilemma that I’m not sure I can solve. I try to achieve some kind of balance between being successful in publishing my research while simultaneously doing as little as I can to promote myself or to draw attention to my work once it is published in a journal…
And yes, Thom Yorke said it well:
But I’m a creep
I’m a weirdo
What the hell am I doing here?
I don’t belong here
Indeed.
Hey, you are doing something you love and that’s awesome 🙂 I hope you have a lot of success in it.
I think everyone feels like they don’t belong here sometimes, but everyone has something special to contribute and the world truly wouldn’t be the same with even one person missing. Everyone contributes something to the whole so thank goodness we are all different. It would be so boring if we were all the same 🙂
Good luck D4P
Awesome, indeed.
Oh, I had this problem so I came up with a pseudonym/alter-ego. Very handy!
Whoa. Hay (is for horses), ‘expected’ is a strong word. Be careful with that thing. Don’t go flinging it around like a thing that flings around.
I second your view. I have to face the same dilemma. Although I want to contribute, it’s a pain and also possibly a threat when people start noticing that you are there, your name, your identity. Or maybe I’m just a paranoided intj ;))
I have meditated on Emily Dickinson this morning and noticed that I have no need to needle my relative in return any more. Strange thing…
O, I see you been doing your homework. Nice.
Ha, it sounds like to me that those INTJs have really sold you on their bullshit as if you were some sucker. My experience is that (without exception) strong Ni users are very up their own assholes. This becomes a full blown display of NPD when you start to perpetuate what they say as truth.
Trust me, all introverted types experience worlds which you could argue as alien. Where in the world does Fi and Ti fit comfortably into the structure? Has there ever been a time or place where the nostalgia of Si’s experiences were completely accurate reflections of real events? There is nothing specifically unique or wonderful about Ni-doms, its just the other three functions aren’t as removed from reality.
I have an INTJ MD in my job and an INTJ teacher in my evening classes. They are odd creatures truly but certainly not aliens. Mere mortals who make too many mistakes.
Also let it be known that the other IN types struggle too. An INFP walks the street and nobody pays them heed. Nobody cares or loves them and they have no friends despite having the potential to be the most loyal friend a person could ever hope to have. They love and care but are seen as cold and selfish. Nobody cares for their dreams or their ideals and their link to thinking is too weak for them to actualise their dreams and show the world. They continue with their world unacknowledged until it stops and falls apart.
INTPs build the greatest models in their head and seek only to understand. They want for nothing but to make sense of things but everyday they are surrounded by things which make no sense and people who are not interested in making sense. People criticise their very nature and their way of thinking and being and never stop to wonder whether these logical models could solve problems which plague their world everyday. They have a weak tether to feeling but its just enough that the atmosphere of a room will play upon their minds if their truths are not what people want to hear. Stuck in a world where they cannot be anything nor cannot ever be truly alone they must continue and endure.
INFJs well are similar in many regards to INTJs. However their feeling often becomes a weakness instead of a strength and they look to their thinking function as some sort of salvation as many feelers do.
I’ll respond to your comment by quoting you paragraph by paragraph and responding in following to each.
Me: What do you mean by very up their own assholes? Do you mean full of shit? Or oblivious to reality? Or both?
While I agree that many Ni doms and auxiliary users have many of the traits of narcissism, I wouldn’t agree that this it always, or even mostly, goes so far as to become NPD (narcissistic personality disorder), though I agree with the general thrust of what you are saying. Yes, many Ni users can be unbearably arrogant and in love with themselves and their potentials. Where I would disagree with you is in the implied conclusion that this is “undesirable or “bad”. For example, most (if not all) geniuses display VERY strong traits of Ni and so are unbearable people in the normal sense of that term. But, they compensate by (sometimes) coming up with some very neat shit. Most geniuses are, at the very least, highly interesting, and for this alone, I would pay them homage. But, this is my criteria and not that of most people perhaps. But, to put it bluntly, I don’t care. I like what I like and can hardly help that. I instinctively like the INTJ type a lot, and even more than that, and perhaps more accurately, I respect them. Many INTJs command and compel my respect. I can’t help that and I am not going to pretend it is not so in the name of being nice.
Me: Well, to you there might be nothing specifically unique or wonderful about Ni-doms but to me there is. I’m not knocking the other introverted functions and I know they have their place, but, I find Ni to be the most interesting of the introverted functions. So, that is just my bias. Actually, it is the bias of many in the type community, so, yeah, I know that, but, I suppose I will just be honest about it. Much of the whole typing business is an Ni preoccupation almost exclusively. Si types, for example, find this whole endeavor largely irrelevant and silly. So, that is their bias. And their bias has ruled the world for a good deal of time.
Me: Again, this is your bias and it sounds like you are hurt by being ignored, which is valid, and I will address this in your next point.
Me: Yes, I do know that INFPs have their struggles and that they are ignored in large part by the passing world. I will be writing more about INFPs in the future so please don’t take it as me ignoring them or thinking that they have nothing to offer. I know that they have the capacity to love and care like nobody’s business and that this gift is often ignored or downplayed as relatively unimportant by the dominant introverted intuitives. I know many INFPs live lives of relative isolation because they have so much trouble making the authentic connections that they so desire, crave, and well, just NEED in order to function. I know. And I feel for them. I would like to find answers for them as well. Or, maybe, simply just to pay them homage too. That is what you are saying I think. Well, I will. All in good time.
Me: Yes, a similar thing to what you were saying about INFPs I think. Though, to be fair, I think INTPs have had a lot more fame and exposure than INFPs. The Western world has pretty much been in the INTP paradigm for quite a while now and I feel they are getting plenty of recognition for their talents and abilities. The computer age is their age in many respects.
Me: Yes, INTJs and INFJs are very similar in many respects. And yes, many feelers are ignored in today’s Western world unless they can clothe their insights into thinking values. I wrote about this in my article, The Culture of Like. I don’t believe that thinking values are the only form of truth. All judging functions are an attempt to delineate the truth. And the thinking functions often fail in regards to subjective truth, which is a very grievous failure, since, all attempts at truth by humans are inescapably subjective in nature. So, I think feelers will have their day in the sun in the coming days of the world. It could be called subject-referenced truth.
Anyways, thank you very much Turnip for taking the time to comment. I really do appreciate it and am glad that you have spoken up on behalf of what you perceive to be a lack in this site and others perhaps. I see that you are angry at INFJs and INTJs for their narcissism and superior ability to gain attention in this community and that is valid. Your feelings are valid. I will be taking what you said to heart.
And please feel free to say exactly what you feel on this site. I welcome and encourage it. Thanks again.
INTJ here. My mom is an INFP and so is one of my very good friends. Both of them inspire very strong protective feelings in me. Incidentally, my mom married an INTJ who is also similarly protective of her.
Even though I know that the INFPs in my life are totally capable and competent, I still have an impulse to take take care of them.
You sound pretty butt-hurt about never having met a caring INTJ. We’re out here, but it’s true that we don’t respond well to cries of “Pay attention to me!” Oops.
Hmm, could the arrogance be stemmed from Ni combined with a low order Ti?
I might ground the arrogance associated with Ni in the corresponding weakness with Se.
Sensing types don’t much care for people with “high ideas”, to begin with. They also tend to find the larger, grander language that Ni tends to provoke in Ni users as being arrogant (I find sensors sometimes can’t wrap their heads around the fact that people really CAN speak like that naturally – it’s not an act or affectation designed to humiliate them.)
The weak Se also implies that the Ni user is physically “here” but in reality, they can often end up somewhere else when Ni kicks in. People take that personally. They take it as a condemnation of themselves when the Ni user checks out in their presence.
And keep in mind, the weak Ni users end up finding paranoid meaning in the things that strong Ni users are doing and saying.
I guess my point is, just because someone says someone is arrogant doesn’t always make them arrogant. Maybe they’re just not that into you.
@Mark – I love your glasses. Are those Gucci or Dollar Store special?
@e – My avatar wears only the finest cat sunglasses that internet money can buy.
@Mark – Well then.
@blake – You wrote “So, I think feelers will have their day in the sun in the coming days of the world.”
I would suggest that the feelers are already having their days in the sun right now. When ideas like EQ, soft skills, institutional knowledge, etc are widely understood as being key to success, you’re probably living in a feeling world.
They may not dominate in the way that the thinkers utterly dominated the West for so long (and this is probably a good thing – we already tried going with the hard thinking, let’s not make the mistake of switching to the opposite extreme) but feeling is certainly highly respected and valued to the point that lack of feeling will cause one to fail.
You are quite the contrarian.
No, I cannot cede to your suggestion that feelers are having their days in the sun right now, though, I might agree their are certain signs that this is to come. However, feelers are still far from their ascendancy.
The way I see it we have been in an age of heavy industrialization, mechanization, and technologization that has culminated in the computer age and with it the age of information. In the Western world, led by American prerogatives and progress, we have seen a decrease in feeling values. There is lip service paid to feeling values, but, little actual feeling.
For one thing, by my lights, the proliferation of “digital” technologies is anti-feeling by it’s very nature. And digital technologies have replaced many “analog” technologies in society and culture. To give an example from the world of sound reproduction, analog recordings have some form of distortion on them, which is often perceived as desirable to certain people because of their “warmth”. The very people that would prefer this form of warm distortion are probaly feeling types, while the types that prefer digital sound reproduction technologies are more thinkers. Digital sound reproduction eliminates the distortion caused by such mediums as magnetic tape and vinyl. That warm, crackling sound of vinyl records, for example. Or tape hiss. Or the warm overdriven sound of vacuum tubes in amplifiers.
The thinking function, by its very nature, attempts to eliminate “the noise” and hone in on the “source signal”. Anything that is not this signal is viewed as undesirable noise. Thinking, in the positive, cuts through the noise to find the signal. It then attempts to eliminate all that is not that.
The feeling function, on the other hand, operates contextually. It sees the noise and the signal as part of a whole. It is impressionistic. It’s analog. Continuous. Feeling will often lose the signal in the “noise”. But, the noise is the context in which the signal exists.
Anyway, before I get too abstruse and out there, this proliferation of digital technologies over analog ones, is one instance of a trend away from feeling values and towards thinking ones. And as we know, digital technologies are ubiquitous in today’s world.
I could give many more examples of this trend of thinking over feeling, but, this is a comments section, not an article, so I will leave it at that suggestion on my part.
Suffice to say, I don’t agree with your suggestion that feelers are having their day in the sun right now, but, I think I can see what you are saying from the examples you offered.
Also, I appreciate your intelligent and contrarian comments on this site throughout. Thank you.
@blake: You wrote, “You are quite the contrarian.” I suppose so, yes. I don’t generally think of myself that way – and I think that may contribute to quite a few, um, disagreements in my personal life – but I see your point in that sentence.
I just always find myself seeing the compensating opposites of things, and stepping in to fill in the missing pieces with an eye towards . . . I guess everyone benefiting? But that might get old after a time, huh.
Anyway, enough novel personal insights. Your point is granted. You capture the larger idea more effectively, and I’ll have to think on how it’s true some more. Thanks.
Everything gets old after a time. I like your contrarian contributions. Someone’s got to do it. And it provokes further thought about these issues. I like that. I prefer that over thoughtless agreement.
It seems to me balance is the best in all cases. To go too far towards knee-jerk contradiction is no better than to go too far towards knee-jerk agreement for the sake of harmony. Both poles are necessary and in proper balance.
I’m intrigued by your theory of the id as the shadow function of the auxiliary. can you say sth about it in the INTJ? how does the Ti as id manifest itself in the INTJ? would this be the intricate (and, let’s be honest, unhealthy) thought edifices that so often sustain their actions? is this why so many INTJ thinkers come across as Tis (Hegel, Nietzsche, Marx)? is it because of this that many otherwise rational INTJs fall prey to slightly paranoid conjectures & conspiracy theories of sort (because – they do, I’m sorry)? or is the ‘conspiracy theory’ (=relying too strongly on elaborated internalized rationalizations that seem logical, but are too superficial to be taken seriously) just a negative side effect of a strong Ni? (I don’t see it in INFJs, though)
Well Luka, funny you should mention it. My next article will be on this very topic of the Ti id of INTJ. So, please hold these thoughts until I get that article out. Then we can get more into this lovely facet of INTJs.
I actually like them a lot, and it saddens me a lot that people seem to misjudge their otherwise noble and gentle souls. it serms obvious to me that their cynicism comes from their inability to come to terms with the world … and the fact that they’re really deeply misanthropic. the only thing really bothers me is that they’re so arrogant on the basis that they have it all figured out … while in reality, they just haven’t.
I wept after reading this article.
I have been vacillating between posting a comment vís a vís passive admiration of the work you’ve done thus far ever since discovering your website. I never post responses anywhere; I appreciate the commentary of those more willing while imbibing in the diffusion of knowledge by proxy of lurking :).
But this got me.
Disclosure: I am an INFJ. I became familiar with typing recently, as college dropout whose primary interest was in neuroscience, music, & photography. Writing is the fulcrum.
The primary relationship of my adult life is with an INTJ. Five years deep, he is the only person beyond blood that I have ever loved unconditionally. I laughed out loud reading your INFJ posts because they were so unmerciful but so fucking true. Finally, a way to see the journey of getting over myself that wasn’t drenched in the *intensity* of “must know thyself. Must own thyself. Must find dinner.” I took acute interest in your comparison articles, gaining & validating insights about this relationship, a detached exercise of learning. Funny as hell, too. Hence the potency of impact.
My gentlemen & I met in 2010. Such a gorgeous union of two people so much alike yet so fundamentally different. He’s an Ivy League educated career attorney, a slew of Latin honors in his wake. I’m a college dropout twice removed, a musician bar-tending her way to autonomy. We bonded over a mutual sense of overworked/underpaid lifestyles, & as I see now, disconnect with the world at large. We met @ my then-job. Me waiting tables, him drinking @ the bar. I was drawn to his drainage-like self containment. Later conversations would have him admitting that he’d actually seen me @ a local bar, deduced my job & had been scouting me. Said I was the most beautiful girl he’d ever seen.
We have this level of comfort where we will be in the same room, doing our version of being, & never interrupt the other. Just a casual finesse of understanding until we come back to each other(& we lived in a studio apartment!) when the time was right. “Are you hungry? I could eat now!”-me. “I found a recipe I wanna cook!”-him. Most recently, after a year of lacking exchange in person, I found myself reaching out due to issues with my landlord(gotta love NYC) knowing he had similar issues with his. We always kept in touch after breaking up. We met up & saw each other. Took no more than 20 minutes to fall right back into our rhythm. Suffice to say, we wound up back @ his place. I caution against gracing that night with words as I’m still orienting myself to the dialogue.
What I think of is all of the sentiments he’d express after we broke up last year that I took as insults, that I now understand were not him trying to hurt me, but expressing how I hurt him. The mutual guilt of “you hurt me/I hurt you/I’m mad because you make me feel remorse & you make me feel @ all/who do you think you are/I’m better off alone.” He has said, literally, “I love you. That makes me hate you.” After our last night together(last week as of this writing) this became explicitly clear. I’ve been, for better or worse, wondering how the Ti/Fi tertiary dichotomy influences our Fi/Ti Id differences, respectively. These functions don’t feel dichotomous @ all, I’ve experienced their wonder especially with the liaison of Ni in the ego… & now I’m about to cry again so I will wait readily for your INTJ article regarding Ti & continue understanding, & growing.
& thank you.
Well, you are totally fucking welcome. And thank you very much for sharing that soul-baring story. The Ti in INTJ article will be coming out soon. So stay tuned.
Artfully insightful, profane, lyrical, the knife edge of understanding wrapped up as a gift just for you…I say INFJ
I’ve spent days here now. I hunger for your perspective and ask this with respect. So, not so long ago I came across a reference to John Lennon being violent, with women, and men as well. A fighter. I researched it, and it seemed to be true. Songs were spoken of that I hadn’t previously understood were apologies for his loss of control. Now, I am sorry if I am wrong, have been misled, and I am not meaning to disrespect him, but I am trying to understand this violence coming from an otherwise very controlled people. And I both see it and don’t. The utter loss of control Lennon suffered, seems an anomaly if he is an intj. I’m trying to say I feel like INTJ’s are very good at holding themselves aside, in control under most circumstances and if they were violent, it would be intentional, not an emotional outburst.
And when you add people like Christopher Walken and Starman as INTJ’s I can really see their self control, but not like they are mad, just still, contemplating. I used these as examples because they have this aura about them, like they could mess you up, they’d have no compunction if they were pushed to consider it a solution. They won’t without provocation, but they could. This is what I see in Jeff Bridges eyes. In Christopher Walken’s.
This is convoluted. Ugh.
I don’t think they see violence as unacceptable under certain circumstances. I have a friend that confirms this with her speech, at times, not often. And it’s… very matter of fact. And I do understand this, I mean I see the logic they see in a violent solution. Not saying Lennon thought it was a solution. What I read about him felt like an emotionally triggered outburst. Certainly not impossible from any human, I realize.
I’m not sure how to make my question understood. It’s more a disparity I am wanting to understand. Or to understand why his loss of control isn’t out of character, if I’m that off base. And lastly, I revere him. Parts of me wish I didn’t understand frustration and violence and parts of me are grateful I do.
I think INTJs can be very edgy and angry people that if you come at them the wrong way, they will eviscerate you. And they know just where to hit too. Very precise psychological aim.
So, I don’t see angry outbursts as something that an INTJ is incapable of. I think Lennon may have had more pressure put upon him than the average person. His mother was run over by a cop when he was a teenager. His dad was absent (a sailor). He had the feeling that he was a genius from a young age.
Lennon was basically an angry guy. I think for the amount of anger that he had that he was probaly rather self-controlled. It came out in snide comments, sarcasm, and just a generally edgy energy.
I think the thing is that many people that are like Lennon have all kinds of demons and issues etc. It’s just that in Lennon’s case, he is mostly known for being the guy that was talking about “give peace a chance”, “all you need is love”, “war is over if you want it”, “love is the answer” etc. I think he had an extremely reasonable side to him for all the pain that he experienced. He could have blown up in the Beatles way before that band did come to an end. And it later came out in interviews (and his solo material) how much he hated maintaining the Beatles image as the four good lads from Liverpool. But, I think Lennon made some very reasonable and well-measured decisions. Leaving his wife Cynthia for Yoko Ono, then eventually breaking up the Beatles (but, after many years of feeling this way about it), deciding to do the whole love, peace, and pacifism thing. To make some albums with his new wife (Yoko) where he really was able to fully express his avant-garde and experimental cutting edge nature. Going cold turkey of heroin and writing about it in a song. He was very honest about himself, even the stuff that made him look like an asshole. And he was an asshole. But, he was also an extremely beautiful type of person. He truly shared himself with the world. And he didn’t hold back the truth, even if it was painful or damaging. That’s an INTJ thing.
INTJs can be brutally honest. They do not suffer fools gladly and they do not wear pretenses.
So, I guess what I’m trying to say is that INTJs can be violent. As a matter of fact, they are one of the more harsh and violent types, though, you are right, it is often held in check and not dispensed/expressed in emotional outbursts. But, it is often expressed in one way or another. And if an INTJ is pushed too far for too long, it very well may come out in a spectacular emotional explosion. Or some sort of physical violence. The same is not true for an INFP or an INTP for example. Ni dominant types can be very violent in certain moments under the stress of the inferior.
Thank you for that, truly. I do agree that stress and pain could be enough of a factor. And my most favorite writings are honest and deep. When I realized what had happened, his music took on even more depth.
Also still contemplating the contained violence you attribute to Ni and the inferior, which makes sense for infj. Again harder for me to see intj’s Ti inferior causing trouble just because I don’t live it. And still just at the place where I understand enough [barely] of the functions to begin playing the ‘who has what functions in which place’ game.
I’m still reading here and look forward to more.
As you can see, I’ve an interest in this anger/violence issue, and it is a world issue as well, apparently, in many forms. From my point of view, anger is a repressed emotion and that has it’s serious consequences. Yeah, watch me stuff it back in, squash it, fiddle with it intellectually… and watch it leak out, fairly common, or rarely, blow out. I wonder if one day you might consider an anger in correlation to type, piece.
INFP for instance seems to anger quickly, honestly, do a little destruction and snuff itself out, though it can take some listening/talking through if they’re hurt angry, namely, apologizing to the infp.
One way I’ve come to understand the violence of the INTJ (whether it’s physical or simply verbal) is that they contain in themselves judge, jury, and executioner . . . all in one mind.
They are a patient jury, quietly collecting and receiving evidence as provided to them through their observations. But at some point, if and/or when they decide they’ve gathered enough information to pass judgement, they will ruthlessly move to executioner. Generally, they just disappear from your life. This is the extent of their execution of judgment. I have known people who did not accept this judgement, and continued to forcefully insert themselves back into the INTJ’s attention. Those are the people that the INTJ then forcefully removes from their attention. (So, y’know, give or take what you know about any particular INTJ – if they were violent with someone, they probably at least had it coming, if not actually deserved it.)
Most people don’t ever see the executioner, because INTJ’s tend to stay in jury mode for a long, long time, and like they say, “When you understand a man well enough, you cannot hate him.” But if you stay in their line of sight for long enough, and you end up not passing muster, they will have no compulsions at carrying out those judgments.
Just remember – inferior Se and tertiary Fi. Find them in a bad head space, and then keep making noise that they can’t get away from. It won’t be long before you see a black eyed rage.
Blake, it would be wonderful if you could write an article of your F interpetation of what a romantic relationship between an INTJ (well developed Fi) and INFJ would be like.
I am an INTJ female and my INFJ off/on bf or crazy friend/enemy is always hinting at how my gaze makes him feel eviscerated (can’t find the correct word to describe at the moment) but in other words that I see right through him and uncover his true being. In actuality what I think is that it is me taking all his Fe actions and interpreting it as manipulation and self-centeredness.
All of my family and his friends see him as the sweetest kindest soul but with me it is the opposite. With me he acts totally different than with anyone else. I have asked him who is “true” self is and he said he does not know. Well I told him that by putting on so many facades he is not only deceiving those around him but himself as well. But can Fe ever be genuine anyway?
I find it really odd because Fi is considered more self- centered than Fe but with this INFJ I cannot understand the root. Everything has to come back to him. He must be center of the relationships. I see similarity with my ESTP friends.
I find a mutual understanding in how we see social constructs (he is more willing to follow them than I) and there are many other things we connect through deeply but at the end of it all, after our encounters I sense mistrust. This weird gut instinct of mistrust from both sides. I cannot figure out what that is….where it is coming from. I really want him to feel safe with me, safe to open his beautiful mind and thoughts, values, his feeling view of the world vs my Te rational view.
I would love to read your thoughts on INTJ-INFJ interactions.
Oh and another thought hit me to add on to my previous comment about INFJ-INTJ relationships and mistrust. I, an INTJ, can easily morph myself into other people’s world’s which I guess is what am trying to do with this INFJ but no one personality I have found to be able to morph into mine. Is this an INTJ thing? How can I help my INFJ understand my inner world? Is he even capable of understanding? I honestly feel like of all types healthy INTJs can be the most understanding and least judgemental and therefore they are the only ones I open this world of mine. ….I fear the INFJ judgement.
[Sneaky Lurker popping in for a short ninja visit. Sneaky Lurker does not want to post random Sneaky Thoughts, but will do it anyway.]
-Short version of the proceeding Many Paragraphs- I think INTJs are intelligible to others (such as myself as an INFJ). I don’t buy that others can’t understand them; I think it’s basically a person’s preconceptions that’s going to dictate how much they do and don’t get another person. An open mind does wonders, but many do not have that.
Also, I don’t have an answer for your relational problems. Seems to me, though, that this is not an innate INFJ-INTJ thing, or even an innate INTJ thing of not being understood (as said above). So, I’m going to trust that something more particular is going on in your case, and that More Facts are needed.
-Long Rubbagey Thought Stuff-
One of my closest friends is an INTJ, and I’m pretty sure I’m an INFJ. Both female. I feel like, for whatever reasons, our similarities are what have made our friendship what it is (and made it near impossible to ever not be friends, but… so fell the arrogant, high-minded mouse from her high tree). I think I might understand her, that I understand how she feels, how she thinks, et cetera (more big-picture-style, though, than An Awful Lot of Details). I get along well with this INTJ, but perhaps this INFJ of yours does want too much from you, possibly in part because of his not being sure of who he is, and your possible being very sure of who you are? I know I could venture down that road, and in a way I like this friend because she is so sure of herself. But I realise I need to let that be her self, and I can be my self over here. (Also, it so, so helps to realise that whatever one thinks ‘oneself’ is is often a bit of a deception, anyway, speaking from my point of view. I’ve heard plenty of older-timers say that they were all wrong on who they thought they were when they were young. We could use some of their wisdom to temper our sureness.)
But what I suppose I’m saying is that I don’t think it’s the innate nature of being INTJ that nobody can understand you (snicker). This might not be particularly reassuring, if you want to be a mystery alien thing. I’m going to assume it’s really just the individual situation speaking in its nice, complicated, individual ways. Perhaps it’s a part of INFJ-ness coming to the fore, or a part of your INTJ-ness, but probably unhealthy pieces of some kind; not the nice, healthy whole. Annnd if I were in Needy Mode, I’m sure that any friendship I have would be turned into a deluge of death and fire. If my goal was for the relationship to feed me emotionally, then I imagine that would blind me to the other person (make it all about me, so that my mind is just dwelling on the other person as they relate to me, not the other person for themselves, being a separate human being). But that makes it seem I’m saying your INFJ sounds needy, which maybe I am…
Frankly, I think that when anyone is in the state of needing inordinately the affections and affirmations of someone else, eventually the world will come Crashing In Upon Them. Alas. So it is. We cannot be parasites, or it will all end badly.
Also, it is interesting you mention that Fe cannot be genuine (in ze previouz pozt). But, perhaps it’s possible that Fe would be genuine if it were just communicating its own thoughts, without censorship (I censor so well!). This, I think, may be very hard… but I don’t think it’s impossible. When people say that it is somehow impossible for any person to be honest, my alarms go off and my brain turns on. Yes, perhaps it is easier for some to be honest than others, I can definitely get on that boat, but to go into the domain of thinking some people cannot be honest at all? In my case, if I changed now to be so openly honest of what I think and feel, the world around me would change so drastically that it’s rather frightening to embark on that quest (partly for the sakes of other Poor Souls). I know my relationships with everyone I know now would have to be vastly different, as I’ve been censoring myself ever since I was a very small child. So, therefore, everyone around me has a certain view of me, and I know it, and were I to change that, I’d have to do an awful lot of explaining, which just seems so tiring from my current perspective. I hope I get over that, because it would be better were I to do this (ha ha ha, there’s that INFJ just-waiting-for-it-to-happen, probably).
This is where my friendship with Lady INTJ is fantastic- I feel I can’t be too needy with her, because I can tell she wouldn’t ‘give’ me what selfish things I want; she would just be honest about what she thinks, and I couldn’t manipulate her to do what I want (probably). I have to appreciate the Is-ness of things, which I actually love to do. And somehow this is Very Good- not being able to get from her the kind of recognition I want from other people for how ‘smart’ or ‘true’ what I said was (childhood problems come to mind as the cause of this ‘need’ I have). She simply takes it as casually and naturally as a person could, and doesn’t need to explode in a shower of praise and admiration for how positively insightful what I said was (but occasionally she says what she thinks of me and I am shocked out of my wits that she can have such a high opinion of me- I’m too sensitive to be smart!).
Hope this makes sense. It’s more philosophising than giving you an answer. I feel that the answer is a hard answer- more of a Humans Are Selfish [Right Now] answer, and that it might even be you involved in the selfishness, along with the INFJ. Alas, so is the nature of this sad world.
(Now I wonder, considering almost half a year has passed, whether you will see this. 🙂 )
The metaphor is beautiful and weird, but please do not hang a photo of me on your wall and stare at it every morning.
I am sorry to disagree but Nietzsche is an INFJ in my eyes. First of all he has a Feish tone to his writing: poetic, smooth and yummy. An INTJ would write more dry about facts and stuff (Te) but Nietzsche doesnt even believe in true facts. like he said: “There are no facts, only interpretations”.
Yes, don’t get me started. I’ve been over the INFJ-INTJ divide many a time with Herr Nietzsche. I swear there is no other person that I have had so much trouble with. I can see him as either at different times. And they both make sense. In any event, he is very close to the divide between those two types, probaly more so than any other INFJ or INTJ I can think of.
And I’ve thought A LOT about Nietzsche.
Truth is that Nietzsche had both Fe and Te. He was extremely well-developed. Stylistically, to me, he was the perfect writer. And not just to me either. Many people consider him one of the greatest prose stylists, if not the greatest, in the German language.
An INTJ would write more dry about facts and stuff (Te) but Nietzsche doesn’t even believe in true facts. like he said: “There are no facts, only interpretations”.
Yeah, I think that quote comes more from Ni than Fe over Te, however, yes, I would agree that Fe would be more inclined (and feeling function in general) to the absoluteness of that attitude than Te (or thinking function in general).
So, in short, I don’t know. Um, just take this as one interpretation of Nietzsche from a type perspective. I could easily write about Nietzsche from an INFJ perspective as well. He’s just that kind of guy.
He was either an INTJ with a lot of Fe or an INFJ with a lot of Te. And despite what you said about the yumminess of his writing, he did have a lot of Te nonetheless. Especially when he was writing in a sustained essay format. Genealogy of Morals would be the epitome of this sustained inquiry along one line. There is a lot of Te in that book in the typical INTJ method of asking one question and staying on that inquiry and supporting it with arguments and facts (as well as beautiful artistry and variation). For example, the first question he asks is about the origins of the term “evil”. He is trying to find out where that word came into existence in the pairing good/evil. It used to be that the opposite of “good” was “bad”, not “evil”.
The sustain of his dialectic takes a heaping amount of Te.
It’s like Nietzsche can take a Te line of thought and weave in and around it so beautifully (Fe) and then he can all of sudden bring it masterfully back to that Te point that he was trying to get at in the first place. His artistry with that is unparalleled in my experience.
I find that some traumatized INFJs feel very Te heavy, both men and women. Male INFJs often feel very Te too with family/culture upbringing coupled with likely trauma. Some traumatized female INFJs, who were taught also to be more masculine and are very defended, also feel very Te.
Great job, amazingly insightful. I have a question. Do you think that INTJs may be prone to gaming addiction?
In my experience, yes. Most, but not all, the ones I know are
The question might seem to be asked out of the blue. I think that you idealize INTJs. The fact is that they often lack depth and may engage in not very admirable activities. Games stimulate their minds and may be used as defence mechanism, especially when they are emotionally immature. Just a thought, or perhaps, intuition.
Thank you 🙂