This article is an investigation into the INTJ form of Ti, which is represented by the sign of Aquarius as an implied Moon position, and the implications for the realm of the social sciences and INTJ’s natural interest and ability in these fields.
This is juxtaposed with the INTP form of Ti, which is represented by the introverted phase of Gemini (Gemini, being a mutable sign, has an extraverted phase as well) as an implied rising sign position, and INTP’s more natural interest and ability in the natural sciences rather than the social sciences. I then discuss Gemini in its extraverted phase (Te) and the implications this has for the INTJ auxiliary function, which amounts to a personality projection, a style, and a method rather than an innate experience of themselves.
There are two forms of Ti: Aquarius Ti and Gemini Ti. Both these forms of Ti have considerable differences from each other which can be used as an aid in temperament identification, in this case, between INTJ, who uses the Aquarius form of Ti as an id position, and the INTP, who uses the Gemini form of Ti as a dominant orientation (ego orientation).
INTJ also uses the sign of Gemini in its extraverted phase as an auxiliary position, which I discuss too.
Let’s pick a few social sciences fields:
- Law
- Economics
- Political Science
- History
- Linguistics
- Sociology
- Anthropology
The social sciences are defined as “concerned with society, and the relationships among individuals within a society.” (Wikipedia)
Let’s look at the word “social” in association with Aquarius. Well, Aquarius is one of the four social signs. Social studies deal with the doings of people. It deals with the concept of “society”.
“People” is another Aquarius word.
There are two main approaches to the study of society: positivistic and interpretivist.
Positivist social scientists use methods resembling those of the natural sciences as tools for understanding society. This would be the more INTP approach to social sciences (Ti Gemini).
Interpretivist social scientists use social critique or symbolic interpretation rather than construct empirically falsifiable theories. This would be the more INTJ approach (Ti Aquarius).
I would classify Aquarius as a non-positivistic sign by temperament, taking its cue from social factors rather than natural ones.
Ti Gemini, on the other hand, would be positivistic.
The way I see it, Ti Gemini attempts to exclude, or preclude, the “human” element in its investigations, and is actually, a pre-social sign. It could be classified as one of the four signs of “self-preservation”. And indeed, as far as Gemini has been written about as the sign that represents eating off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and being cast out of the Garden of Eden, it deals with the theme of every man for himself and having to come up to speed on the natural world as quickly as possible. Perhaps, this symbolic/mythical event represents the event that forms the predominant psychology of Gemini, the formative psychology of the sign. And indeed, Gemini seems to be a “formative” sign. Maybe that would be a better name for the “self-preserving” class of signs. They all deal with primary survival and the early concept of resources of nature. They all seem to lack the “human” element as if “people” aren’t important at this stage. It is “me” and “mine”. Something selfish about all of these signs of self-preservation: Aries, Taurus, Gemini, and Cancer.
Wouldn’t it have been an INTP with Ti Gemini dominant who would have said, “I think, therefore I am”. Gemini, especially in its Ti form, is the motto, “I think”.
Aquarius’s motto would be “we think”, the collective thoughts of man. “Group think”.
So, the reason I think Gemini is inherently positivistic is because it has to do with a man’s thoughts about the natural world. I think Gemini is inherently “empirical” and “scientific-method oriented” as well.
Aquarius, on the other hand, is not a sign that any longer is concerned with the natural world, but rather one man’s thoughts about another man. The organization of society. Aquarius’s psychology has nothing to do with the natural world nor the observation and classification thereof.
Aquarius’s version of the introverted thinking function, is thought that always has “the people element” in it.
And so whatever the basic questions of the social sciences are the concerns of Aquarius.
Questions such as:
- How do people organize themselves into societies?
- What rules do they follow?
- How did those rules originate?
- What do people do all day long?
- What are the fundamental ways to classify people? What are the different groups and classes of people? What are the inherent beliefs, interests, etc. of x group of people? (Sociology, demography)
- Why is it so? (Ha, nope, that’s a question of Sagittarius, the intuitive, and that gets into religion, metaphysics, philosophy and so on. Aquarius does not ask “why?” outside the sense of people organization, outside of their ideologies that all have to do with political organization, real-world concerns of power, relationship, rewards, punishments, rule systems, and so on. The metaphysical reasons for why any of us might be here in the first place to be doing any of these things or the cosmic significance and meaning of it. Existential questions such as “Why does anything exist at all?” would be off limits to Aquarius)
- Where Ti Gemini classifies the natural world, Ti Aquarius classifies the human world. Ti Gemini classifies “the objective” and Aquarius classifies “the subjective”.
- Aquarian questions always have a more people-friendly tone. Gemini simply asks for the data.
- Aquarius is the “what of the whom”. Gemini is just the “what”.
- How do people transact with each other? Commerce, Economics.
- Law, Economics, and Politics are all systems created by humans to determine how they should interact with each other in the regards of customs, power, money, etc.
- Ti Gemini, on the other hand, are systems that exist regardless of whether humans do or not. I think Gemini studies people as extensions of the natural world. It doesn’t get “the human” as some sort of exclusive group. Aquarius has some innate psychology of human specialness and is biased on the side of human systems vs. natural systems. To Aquarius, it is cold to look at humans as some objective portion of the natural world. To Gemini, it is natural to do so. Nietzsche is very critical of this Ti Gemini type of mentality all throughout his works. When he refers to the vivisectionists, the atomists, the positivists, the English psychologists, the philologists, and the miniaturists, he is referring to Ti Gemini.
Nietzsche was an incredibly instructive example of the INTJ temperament. INTJs have Ti Gemini as an implied astrological 12th house position, and thus, have a strong instinctive aversion to, and yet long history with and negative susceptibility to this form of Ti. Ti Gemini represents the INTJ form of ego disintegration and self-undoing.
But, INTJ does have Te Gemini as their solar path (as auxiliary function)
So, what does this look like? Well, this has more to do with Gemini as doer rather than a knower. And as has been seen, Gemini is quite a harsh little sign. It doesn’t take the human into consideration.
This has implications for INTJ methods, personality, and style.
The INTJ method is a harsh one, for example, in their mode of inquiry, they are harsh with themselves as well as those around them. They are very anti-feeling and sympathy. This is not their motive, but, their method. Many INTJs would probably be surprised to find out that they come off this way. I think this is true with auxiliary functions in general. Other people see it, but the emitter doesn’t. Personality, after all, is for others, not for oneself. If there were no others, there would be no personality. One would be aware of their id function and dominant function the most in this case.
The id function is who you are to yourself, so in a sense, the opposite of personality.
I would imagine that many INTJs are aware of themselves as Aquarians. Behind closed doors. And I think Aquarians see themselves as benefactors of mankind. They see themselves as “the observers” of mankind.
So, the auxiliary function is the self that is created by interaction with others. It is one’s natural style.
I suppose the concept of “style” is an important one. Both Nietzsche and Aleister Crowley (ENTJ) considered it one of the most important things to develop, if not the most important or most “needful thing”. I wonder if this has something to do with both of them being Libras. Oscar Wilde (ENFP) also comes to mind in this “style” concept and he had a Libra Sun too. I think the Venusian implications of Libra make this a particularly important preoccupation of the sign. ENFPs seem to be all about “style” over “substance” or the style is the substance. The “look” is the most important thing.
This of course has relationship to esthetics.
Anyway, the natural style of Te Gemini is cold, hard, and steel-like. And, in action, or interaction, INTJ adopts this persona as a natural style. It puts out this energy rather than receives it.
The concept of the Overman (Ubermensch) comes in part from this Te method or “answer” of Nietzsche. Also, the latter comic book version of this – Superman, the man of steel.
Ayn Rand’s Atlas – the industrial leaders and innovators of the world. Howard Hughes and Tesla come to mind. Rand, Hughes, and Tesla were all INTJs.
Te Gemini is “The Tiger” of Chinese Astrology and “Eris” of Greek Mythology
I think that this extraverted side of Gemini isn’t accounted for in most Western astrological descriptions of the sign. However, in Chinese Astrology, Gemini would be the equivalent of “The Tiger”. The Tiger is the strongest of all the signs in some ways. It’s considered the least feminine sign and is particularly brash for women. And lo and behold, INTJ women are some of the strongest and most phallic women around.
What you usually see in Western descriptions of Gemini is the Mercurial side of the sign. However, this corresponds more to the Ti side of Gemini. Te Gemini is not Mercurial. It is quite the opposite in some ways: strong, unwavering, and definite. It still has that harshness of Ti Gemini, but directed towards the outside world to get things done, instead of to understand and break down the world into static categories and definitions. No, this is a different psychology in this portion of Gemini. There is still the “every man for himself” thing but there is no longer the flighty aspect of Gemini like the subject that has just been thrown out of the Garden of Eden and must “run, baby, run.” No, this side of Gemini is the first phase of extraversion rather than the last stage of introversion encountered in Ti Gemini.
All mutable extraverted signs can be characterized by a great and primitive outrushing of energy that is not at all stabilized. This is where true cardinality begins.
And this phase, as represented in Te Gemini, seems to be all about the first buildings of society, industry, enterprise and so on. The first attempts at a civilization when things are still rather barbaric and every man for himself. No set and entrenched rules as of yet. Te Gemini is like a great force of nature, the invigorating and bracing wind. The strong wind that tears away at your face. It is kind of like how Aleister Crowley was describing Libra rising, when I think he was really describing his Te Gemini temperament. Libra, the other Te sign, when compared to Te Gemini, is a more peaceable version of Te. It is more stable, human, democratic, and taking into account “the other”.
So, what I predominantly see in Te Gemini is the Tiger and also the Erisian (Eris is the goddess of discord). The Tiger has that “spring” unlike any other predator. They are quick, agile, and very strong. However, they lack the “heart” of the Lion. It is much like William Blake stood in awe of the tiger’s construction. It is just this awesome force of nature. But, it doesn’t seem to have any purpose in a personal sense. It is just that part of nature that is strong, quick, deadly, and magnificent to behold.
And that is what one instinctively feels from developed INTJs, this utterly formidable aspect to them. You can’t hurt them but they can bat you all over the place. They are not to be trifled with.
But, INTJ does have that noble consciousness (Ni Leo ego). Whereas, ENTJ does not. They have the tiger consciousness, which is not noble or moral really but rather cold, calculating, and very capable (hey, the three c’s!). Behind the tiger lies expedience – what it can do and what others can’t. It is very cold in outlook. Lions, on the other hand, aren’t. Quite the opposite.
Think of Aquarius as the cat and Te Gemini as the tiger. Or perhaps, it is something like this: when the cat is just sitting there watching you and others, it is Aquarian, but, when that cat flies into action, it is Te Gemini.
I guess INTJ is the “cat type” par excellence. Lion, housecat, and tiger. All cats.
Also, in Nietzsche there is the concept of testing an idea, not by whether it is empirically verifiable, but, by testing, experimenting, and trying it out. Let’s live according to this idea and see if it works, that is, whether it works for humans and their particular outlook. Nietzsche also warns against ideas that are hostile to humanity. So, there is some conception of not whether something is ultimately true, but, whether this is an idea that will help man and society.
So, experimentation and testing seem to be part of this INTJ method, to do something with the idea. To invent (AC power system, engine, airplane, nuclear bomb). To build a system in the real world (such as an industrial or business system, economic system, political system), to create art or esthetics that experiments with the natural values of an artistic medium (Stravinsky, Yoko Ono, Brian Eno, Kate Bush, the musical band King Crimson). This latter activity seems particularly Erisian. It is anti-feeling, yet, concerned with esthetics.
Alright, that’s enough of that. I’m sure I have confused you enough for one day. Please leave comments if you have questions.
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Featured Photo Credit: B_Cool from Singapore
Great article and fantastic parable with the felines.
Do you think an infj with sun in Gemini, mercury in cancer 12th house and geminis in the same cusp of the 12th house is condemned to the et Gemini?
In other terms, with that astrologic configuration and taking into account the nature of the infj, is it pulled to the tertiary and so having a deficit in not using the auxiliary at all?
I like cats.
O really? I thought you loved them.
I am one.
I will donate)! In the next few days. Very busy at moment. So excited there is a new post! I was reading the enfj/infj one earlier today and finding fascinating. Makes me want to know that I know an enfj, I must know some, they aren’t that rare.
I’m excited that you are excited!
I donated! Because I think you should write more. I see you making lots of connections between various ideologies. Are you Ne dominant?
My father is an INTJ mathematician. My husband is an INTP mathematician. Can I tell you HOW fascinating this article was for me! I can confirm a lot of what you wrote about is true in their cases. I’m not as good as you are at this stuff but I will try to explain:
my husband is a problem solver at heart and struggles to relate his personal interests to anything political inside the math world. he also tries to consider anything (exhausting) and to break it down and up again, as if he truly were rediscovering past discoveries. my father is different, i think to learn he likes to learn content+place, and does not need to rediscover so much the entirety content. he would prefer to figure out a direction from it, landmarks. he thinks politically even within math even while remaining pure. he is concerned with the role one part of math plays with other parts of math. as if the math landscape, theorems, people and all is his social sphere. it’s so interesting to seem them both work. so different yet works both ways. my father is really fast sometimes when you ask a math question. he has the answer placed somewhere (all those landmarks). my husband is also really fast sometimes, because he is just a really smart fast problem solver. but he will be fast because he solves it again fast so to speak. I read what I just wrote and become convinced it makes no sense and simplifies what you wrote to nothings…. and yet I *know* what you wrote to be true for my husband and father. hmmm. what can I add. I will think more about this. there is a lurking thought in my mind about the way my dad and husband relate to family versus how they relate to colleagues that also touches on this aquarius versus gemini thing….. just a clouded glimpse of a thought at this point…. but I know there to be truth in there….
Sounds like unintelligible gibberish??
Thanks for the awesome donation! Love it.
As for what you wrote being unintelligible gibberish, I wouldn’t go that far. What I got out of it was the “content + place” thing you spoke of for INTJ, and I think that is right, if I understand it correctly. INTPs are more pure theoreticians that tend to disregard “place”. INTJs have much more of the “historical consciousness” that Nietzsche references a lot in his books. INTJs essentially are trying to understand society, which involves place, time, and peoples.
INTPs are trying to understand pure reason and abstraction, often, for their own sake.
And yes INTJs would be surprised how they come across. That Te sometimes reduces the the human element very efficiently lol. Like you said it’s not the intention. I’ve seen this with my father countless times. If you point this out, you will see a hurt puppy face on my father, and he will usually withdraw before you can see the split second face. There is a vulnerability there that is the opposite of this Te stance. Oh how pleasant:)
Hi there:)
I love your comment regarding “Te sometimes reduces the human element very efficiently.” Lol. I am an INFJ and my on/off again boyfriend of going on six years–we’re on again, btw– is an INTJ, five years older. I so much relate to your comments!!
I have been searching for other INTx people in my life, but I just have one ENTP, my childhood, and current adulthood, best friend. Such different dichotomies. I know that, “hurt puppy face,” that you speak of. My guy is an attorney, and I am a musician. We went in very different directions regarding our intellectual prowess, even as that was the very commanlity we shared that brought us together in the first place.
It’s like, there is this respect for how we reached our similarities in different ways, but our general interests are so different, even though our values are the same!! Many arguments have ensued as a result. This article is a whirlwind. What is your type? Being more cognizant of his, well, our, vulnerabilities has really helped so much. Just as much as Fe does not realize how much it overreacts, Te cannot see how aggressively detached its default becomes. I often wonder how our mutual Ti/Fi Ids reconcile these differences. I mean, after six years of putting up with and loving each other, there must be some level of mutual respect, right? It’s just crazy!! I look forward to more. And getting(FINALLY) my first new paycheck so I can make a solid donation and understand further, because this website and Blake is a complete gem within this community.
Alexandria, infp here. You are an infj intj couple. We are intp infp. We have some function clashes as you do. But somehow we make it work:) I’m not super young, I think that helps. I’ve had to come to terms with my temperament just in general. If we were both much younger, I think we would get very confused.
Fanofyours,
We are both still rather young. I am in my late 20’s while he is in his early 30’s, so I believe we are still acclimating to our core selves as people. It is an interesting dynamic, what with having Ids that are in opposion with our tertiary functions while our auxiliary are so at odds with one another. Yet, we share dominant and inferior functions. Being with him has really taught me how to listen better, and I believe the same as well for him. He really is a sweet person. This doesn’t stop me from calling him an asshole, or from him calling me a bitch, lol, but we ultimately sit down and talk things out, and the latter occurs much faster lately these days. We are both very reticent by our Ni nature, and we both had to understand that about ourselves. We have gotten better about giving each other our mutual needs. INFJ need emotional nurturing and space, while INTJ need cognitive space, yet we both need active, physical privacy in order to process these orders of simply being who we are as a way of reconciling how we determine and act on the world. We see each other better now. It’s one day at a time, but it’s getting better.
I am interested in how the P changes dynamics. I hope you comment more, 🙂
The burning question, then…
Is Robert Fripp a INTP, or INTJ?
INTJ. Definitely.
Hi Blake,
With regards to the INFJ Ti function (superego??? I’m not familiar with Jungian psychology)’s attitude towards the social sciences and humanities, do you think it is more Aquarian or Gemini in nature? What about how the rest of the INFJ cognitive function stack comes into play when doing this social science? I’m a college student and need to decide my major in a few days time. It’s either sociology or history. Thanks!
I know you didn’t ask me, but… Sociology! You’ll need history too, and get to study both, so that should make you happy, but sociology is now, it is moving and flowing from way back then to far into the future. So much potential. History is just that, history. Good for learning past behaviors and interesting accomplishments, but hard without sociology to make important corrections/progress. In this is much potential to do good, methinks.
The Ti function for an INFJ is tertiary. The Aquarian version of Ti is normal for INFJ. It equates to an implied Mercury position, which has to do with how INFJ naturally thinks and analyzes and communicates. Ti Aquarius. Social sciences.
Ti Gemini is where INFJs get all fucked up. Too much insistence on closed systems logic such as one might see in logic, mathematics, and the natural sciences.
I’m sure INFJs could do well in sociology or history or political science depending on the approach to the field. I think many of the approaches to these fields today favor the methods of the natural sciences, that is, they are too empirical, methodical, and lacking in a breadth of inquiry.
Also, avoid anything too specialized. INFJs, via their implied Mercury in Aquarius are GREAT broad and general principles type of thinkers. Think basic surveys of fields. The general problems, history, and aims of the field. Something that doesn’t discard the human element too much and get inundated in statistics, data, metrics, charts, graphs etc.
INFJs are good at asking broad general questions about a field of endeavor. Also, a gift of originality and insight. They tend to come up with elegant and simple solutions.
Just stay out of heavy math and logic or natural science type stuff.
I have observed, of late, INFJ’s seem to be popping up either in art (mostly music, but a few traditional artists) or in religion.
I find they have that Ni for creativity and insight, but that FeTi makes them generally too skittish to step out and have their views criticized.
I mean, in reality anyone can do well in any field. I just don’t see how the highly personal, and highly sensitive, INFJ is going to do for very long in the rather cooly detached and quietly competitive academic environment.
Ti in an infj is an implied Mercury in Aquarius? Wow. I have Mercury in Aquarius in my chart. Also I have sun in Pisces and moon in Scorpio. I also have Jupiter in the 1st house which I feel gives me a really strong Ni. It’s freaky how much my birth chart reinforces the infj personality. What other implied positions do you see in the infj functions.
Awesome article! I have an INTJ boyfriend and ENTJ sister and holy moly, are you on point with this id/auxiliary dynamic as represented by astrology and kindred animals. It makes me wish I knew more about astrology, can you recommend any good introductions?
‘Bardo Thodol’ is a good one.
Yeah, I do love that one.
Blake
Best in the new year!
Now where the hell are you?
Miss that wit, knowing sarcasm
and healthy dose of 8’s righteous Anger. Anything new in the offing?
Yes Blake.. We miss you.. Hope you’re well and hope you’re back soon 🙂
Thanks! I’ll be back soon.
Happy New Year to you as well. Thanks for the well-wishing.
I am in temporary hiatus from Stellar Maze but will return anew soon. Stay tuned.
I am writing a resume for you. May I send it when it’s ready? Will you read it? 🙂
Yes, I’ll have a look at it 🙂
I’ll read it too. Send it my way lil’ lady.
Happy New Year, Blake. WE MISS YOU! Hope 2016 is off to a great start.
Happy New Year to you as well.
2016 is off to a Mercury retrograde.
And I will never be able to wrap my mind around how someone came up with the idea of starting a New Year right after the commencement of Winter. Happy New Year…and now I’m off to hibernate 🙂
But, it is good to be missed. I’ll be back soon. And I’ll even give you guys a chance to show me how much you miss me. Now, there’s something to look forward to 🙂
I. Love. This. Blog.
Please write something about capricorn or capricorn as ENTJ😍
Happy New Year Blake!
I hope you come back soon. I cannot wait to find out exactly what is the link between astrology and MBTI? And also more on all the sensors, especially I/ESFP! I’m so fascinated to find out and the way you write just makes so much sense!!
See you soooooooon, hopefully 🙂
xxxxxxxxx
🙂
Interesting,, what if there is an INTJ woman who was born under Libra sign and in the Fire Tiger year according to the Chinese Astroly??
That would probaly boost her Te.
Looking forward to the next article (we fuckin miss you, Blake. Or it may not be you, maybe, because we don’t even know who you are and this sounds kinda mean. Sorry). Damn, 2 whole months without new content. Makes me hungry lol
I also wish you’d have something on INFJ male… But that’s asking too much.
Hope you’re doing well
Blake,
Just posted on an older article of yours and after reading around a bit more I see that you addressed a lot of the subject matter I was wondering about–mediation of Scorpio moon/INFJ through other qualities, as well as catharsis through artistic expression. Really spot on.. alarmingly, novelly, spot on.
I’m still curious though what you think of INFJ with INTJ. I saw your article about them sort of undoing each other and working well together in careers, as well as ENFP (..your type? “cosmic laughter”..) working well with INFJ, which i’ve experienced as true. But also that role you describe of a man just not engaging with volatile INFJ bullshit reminds me of INTJ as much as ENTP, if not more so. But perhaps that’s just because the INFJ’s I’ve been in love with are pretty ENTP as well.
But then I begin to wonder if I’m an INTJ, and it’s hard to tell. My F is usually only 10%ish, but also I’ve seen you saying that some INFJ’s convince themselves they’re INTJs, and I don’t know if that’s what I’m doing. Everything you’ve said here I find relatable on some level or other, or in my darker periods. But also, I’m not really that friendly, and I tell people rational truths without caring very much about their feelings if it seems like the right thing to do in the larger context of their lives or the situation regardless of them. I’m definitely not approachable. I think people that don’t know me tend to think of me as brusque and probably arrogant, but to people that do know me I do frequently take on the INFJ role of counselor. Yeah I’m just not sure. I’m Aries rising, Aquarius sun, Scorpio moon, Gemini mars, Pisces venus, and the rest is Capricorn. Seems pretty 50/50 on the INTJ/INFJ front? Or again, am I just deluding myself? Sometimes I’m even E when I’m in a good mood, even charming, kind of a 180, but that’s fairly rare. I’ve always been active in philosophy and art, and now moving towards design as a kind of synthesis. And trying very, very hard to not fall into the romantic instincts you’ve pin pointed above.
I do still think that INTJ’s don’t actually possess a lot of the qualities you’re referring to here though, and think it’s more that they’re just very aware of these qualities that reside everywhere, and no one else is aware, and so it just seems to them like they’re the possessors of them, and also drives them to kind of insanely make other people admit their own darkness, so that they’re not alone. But in a way that distinction is kind of a moot point since the results are the same. Although framing it that way can make it easier to try and mitigate those qualities in yourself by not thinking they’re stuck to you in some kind of fatalistic way any more than they’re stuck to anyone else.
I’m not sure there’s an overarching point I’m making here in this very long post, just to say that my previous comment from this morning on the other article doesn’t seem relevant anymore, and that I like your perplexing blog a lot.
Thanks
INTJs couldn’t care less about others “admitting their own darkness.” We’d rather let people revel in their respective darkness(es), keep it nice and personal and neat and clean and omniscient and most importantly, (unless it’s really sorted and fun) away from us. No one needs to tell us…we gotcha. We think people are either acutely aware of their nasty thoughts–prone to reveling and chewing all over them, or they’re not, and an INTJ won’t waste time teaching you what you ain’t and never will be, so to speak. We’re not going to pull darkness out of someone, we don’t have the time or patience for a teachable moment. I have a good friend, an INTP, she’ll do all that. Interested in someone’s dark story for informational purposes. Looks for the grit. Has to go poking around ’till she’s satisfied. I think INTJs already know the whole sorted tale, and kinda wished they didn’t, in all but the most soul sintilating tales. But cool post, in any event.
What you said about INTJ rings true to me. I think you’re right.
Miss you, man. What’s it gonna take to coax you outta this hiatus? Donations and/or consultations? I’m still thinking about the whole INTJ thing. But I’m just not feeling it. So I’m spooked.
Blake (or whoever you are) I have a bone to pick with you….”Neither does Ni account for this emotional depth because INTJs are not emotionally deep and they also possess Ni as a dominant function. INTJs disintegrate through Ti, which is their id function, but that is another story. Can you say schizophrenia?” (You, Fi in INFJ)
Dude, really? Ni doesn’t account for emotional depth because INTJs aren’t emotionally deep? INTJs aren’t emotionally deep? Really. I’m so tempted to go on, letting your INFJ (IN?J, but not a wild assumption, you’d have to admit) self think that INTJs lack a certain depth of emotion. The only difference that I can reasonably see between an INFJ and INTJ, is that INTJs don’t feel bad about what they see/feel/think/therefore assimilate through Ni, you know, their overall conclusions, perspective; and an INFJ…does. It’s dark. Naaaarly and nasty and pitch black darkness. Both of them, they see this, think this, breathe this, are this. It’s everything. It’s almost paramount to existence, as if, if it were lost; if somehow an INTJ and INFJ woke up together in this perfection they both undyingly pursue, life would cease to exist–and/or neither of them would want to go on. What the fuck would be the point? Difference being: INTJs love this. They LOVE THIS. They are unapologetic narcissistic malcontents. They will never prove themselves to be the best, anywhere. They assume people in every room they walk in already got the damn memo. And, if not, why should they try to prove their knowledge/love/worthiness/etc? Who’s qualified to judge them? No one.
But, INFJs are so cool, so inherently above INTJs (mostly, but not entirely, because they CARE about what other people think of them) that an INTJ will never understand why an INFJ would ever care about what other people think of them. Make sense? If INTJs are above the law, and INFJs are the evolutionary perfection of the INTJ, why would the INFJ care? Because they’re evolutionary perfection. They’re still above it all, they just feel like it’s super shitty to throw that in anyone’s face (too much, then cue the self loathing). And because they feel the weight of this (and INTJs perceivably don’t), it seems there’s this perception by them that INTJs aren’t capable of deep emotion. An INTJ is slingin’ the mud, doesn’t want to hurt people, but isn’t responsible for other people’s hurt feelings either. It’s an interesting paradox, but that really doesn’t mean the INTJ doesn’t feel…all of it. Actually, I feel like INTJs are the personification of the beguiled, antisocial, impatient, misunderstood, gutsy, violently independent (yet chronically concerned, but why is it my problem I hate this and I hate you fuck off) places of the INFJ. INTJs just don’t persecute themselves over it. They’re ridiculously sensitive and prone to long periods of questioning, analysis, and overall loathing…but they keep it real. As in, it’s always contextual. Always. As in, one doesn’t have beat themselves up about the way they feel, and if someone else doesn’t like it, get it, or agree with it well, that’s gonna be super shitty. For that misunderstanding idiot. But INTJs still feel it. All of it. And the whole Ti schizophrenia thing, I dunno. I like where you’re going with it, but it leaves me a little…hungry. Speaking of, would love to know, when you’re feeling it, of course, your thoughts on the INTJ woman. You must have a few. I see a couple INFJ female related musings but come on, where’s the INTJ femme fatal, siren calling, spine tingling hatred love outpouring? Don’t make me beg.
I like the tiger 🙂
I walked in my home from a night of working to find one of my children – my cat, dead. Hard. Stiff. Gone. Not breathing. Eyes open. It’s only natural to think of the last time our eyes met. The last time I combed her. The last time I saw her chest rise and fall. Sure you might think I’m being over-dramatic, but I am drunk, and I don’t give a funk. We take for granted every relationship. And, we always will. Too caught up. Too focused on development when we forget about the things that just are. Maybe I want words of encouragement from the internet world, and maybe I want to see it burn. This too shall pass, as we shall pass. But what will you take away from life’s lesson? And, more importantly, when will you learn it?
Awh man that sucks 🙁
Losing an animal friend hurts.. There’s so much unconditional acceptance in the relationship we share with them..
What will we take away from life’s lesson.. It’s only what we experience while we’re living it and how we modulate our receptivity towards it.. We never appreciate ourselves as a part of the universe.. Always being selfish and trying to leave our mark on it.. To prove that we’re worthy of being here rather than appreciating the fact that we are here.. With other beings.. With feelings.. And the ability to comprehend and experience..
I had a death related experience recently too.. And like you spoke about the last time your eyes met.. All I could think about was the past and those tiny incidents which connected me to that person.. The moments that were shared between us.. As though all of their history and mine were converging towards that one moment when time stopped existing for them.. And how none of these moments were treated with significance till that point and all of a sudden they took on this magically fearful quality.. A normal hello became a hello they put effort into voicing with just 48 days to live.. Would they have been doing something different at that moment if they knew? Would I have smiled a broader smile or asked a few more questions of them about all their soul was made of if I knew? Questions which can never be answered.. And yet we live on and love on.. Without loving life itself..
I am sorry e, that hurts so much. And Piggie, I am right there myself. All I can see is my friend’s face and moments we had and all the chances I had to make more of them, and failed to push myself from my own melodramatic hermitage. And what I have to take with me is that she loved me as I am.
Thank you both for these posts. And hugs.
This is saying aquarius is implied moon position of intj (moon is what rules emotional life? so intj=benefactor of human race from a distance).
How does it work for intp? They function as gemini, and their moon is __________?
It seems completely different since their id is Ni, which isn’t feelings versus concepts, rather neither. Freaking perception is in the id.
I noticed for intj… id flavors the moon. Then you use the term solar path for the auxilliary, not sure if that use of solar is reference to anything in astrology (as in sun sign) or just meant as the “out in the air” destiny of underground stuff: Ti id—>Te.
Sagittarius?
I know Blake mentioned David Lynch as INTJ– or at least his characters– but I’ve been reflecting on Twin Peaks (and especially the film, Fire Walk With Me) and I’m wondering if we can see it as a tour of the INTP psyche. All of the ponderous, multiplying “weirdness” that seems to signify but doesn’t, or maybe all adds up to an elaborate screen for child abuse, it strikes me as illustrating both Ne and the INFJ id personality. The way each of the characters seems alone in their own story where nothing ever connects or changes. The obsessive interest in Si conventionality and Americana, formlessly unsettled by something underneath (Major Briggs as the grail figure? a stolid and commanding military officer who sees aliens). Kyle MacLachlan’s constant thumbs-upping “this pie is great” friendliness as inferior Fe.
Bob as the deep Ni id: an arbitrary demon who seizes you and stares at you and possesses you and *never lets you go*. Really he’s just a guy with hair who hangs out behind doors and sofas, but to imagine finding him as horrifying as he’s portrayed maybe tells us something about the INTP unconscious.
Does this resonate for anyone? I’m not arguing that Lynch is INTP, btw.
I think you’re overthinking Myers Briggs so much to the point where there is no clear meaning nor distinction to anything anymore. You apply so many unrelated systems (like astrology, which isn’t even real) and try too hard to synthesize them into a single intuition that you stray from the obvious. Plus, you seem not to take individuals within the same type into account. Enough said.
I think you’re overthinking Myers Briggs so much to the point where there is no clear meaning nor distinction to anything anymore.
How so?
You apply so many unrelated systems (like astrology, which isn’t even real) and try too hard to synthesize them into a single intuition that you stray from the obvious.
How do you know they are unrelated? How do you know astrology isn’t real? To me, it looks obvious that Jung took the 4 basic functions of intuition, thinking, feeling, sensation from the astrological elements of fire, air, water, and earth. Pretty obvious if you have looked into astrology, which Jung did.
It’s also pretty obvious how these functions of Myers-Briggs are related to anything you can think of.
So, that’s what I’m doing on this site Celestial Lemon. You don’t have to agree with my associations but I think arguing that these functions aren’t associated with other things is particularly dense.
Plus, you seem not to take individuals within the same type into account.
It’s at this point, I realize the futility of having a discussion with you.
Enough said.
Yes, but not for the reasons you think.