OK, I’m going to take a giant shit here. Can’t help it. We’re dealing with the INFJ woman’s love nature here and I can be nothing but honest (and a little messy) in this endeavor. What this means is that I have largely refrained from editing and dressing all this shit up into something neat and palatable. It is in the spirit of her implied Scorpio Moon that I present to you the following reeking clusterfuck of her garbagesque drives in this respect.
Down below (where she wants to go), I make references to this whole Fi id position that I came up with as a way to explain facets of the INFJ type that are not accounted for in prevailing descriptions of them. This Fi id of INFJ has two main components that are referenced as implied astrological positions throughout this clusterfuck article: An implied Scorpio Moon position, which acts as a normative id position, and an implied 12th house Fi Pisces, which often acts suddenly and overwhelmingly as a finalizing agent of the id that threatens to completely usurp the dominant orientation and reestablish the ego along its lines.
Also, this article is brought to you by popular demand. I trust that all the INFJ women who begged me for this information will know what to do with it.
Umm, what I mean is…
ENJOY!
What does INFJ woman do in a romantic/sexual relationship?
- INFJ woman introjection of man. Swallowing, taking in whole. Like an intimacy that is an effrontery.
- Dominance through submission. Hard submissive.
What is her goal in relating to a man?
- Claims that she wants intimacy and understanding. It is hard to feel satisfied by any would-be man in this respect. Never enough. Neverending well of Fi (Pisces 12th house implicated).
- But, what she does is devour the man and she does it under the guise of love and simple claims of needing intimacy. The reality is that entering into relationship with her is deadly on the emotional level.
Why? Because she is not in control of her nature here. Fi id of INFJ is akin to “the worst are full of passionate intensity” line from the Yeat’s poem, The Second Coming. Like Scorpio, it is either too strong or too weak. On the one hand, she needs to stay unsatisfied to stay interested, and this is like a game, but if she isn’t satisfied then she rebels and asks for more, more, more! Paying a lot of attention to the partner and what she isn’t getting from him.
Yet, if he does give it to her as much as he can then she will grow tired of him, lose respect because he has given into her, at which point she will go to sleep on him and husk. Meanwhile, there is a dead corpse on him emotionally, like an angry dead corpse. She won’t leave the relationship but will feed off of him in some way.
So, either way it is exhausting to her and him.
INFJ woman (Implied Scorpio Moon) really wants a man that she can respect. This means a man that doesn’t give in to the feminine power games of manipulation, power plays, vaginal power of castration, emasculation (subtle usually), getting absorbed in her, bonding to her etc.
However, she also craves a man that can meet her at a deep level or else she won’t feel satisfied. She might respect the man but still feel like he can’t satisfy her deep itch.
So, what does this bitch really want? Can she be satisfied at this Fi level?
Well, in light of the general dynamic of INFJ woman’s extremely strong passionate nature which she is weak to and a victim of, yet an enactor of nonetheless, she can’t help herself when it is activated/roused. She can’t resist the pull of the undertow.
And that’s what it is. She wants to go down and down and down. Deeper.
I guess her complaint is that no man can reach her depths.
What would happen if he did?
Like I’ve said before, another INFJ might do this, but, then they are liable to both be fucked. Because they are in this drive to death type thing that is linked to love.
At any rate, most men can’t go there so there will be two types of men – those that try to please her and those that just take control of her and won’t go there with her.
She respects the latter because he is strong, solar, and immune to her deadly and weak feminine wiles. This is basically a man that won’t allow himself to be weakened in will by giving into her.
Another dynamic here is that I think many INFJ women are a bit surprised about this power that they have. It is always something a bit alien to them perhaps. On a conscious level they aren’t likely to be aware of it.
Then there is the man that is willing to please her. I just have to think on some level that INFJ women are instinctively disdainful of men like this despite all their conscious claims to the contrary. Just my gut feeling on it.
The basic conundrum
An INFJ woman I know had a conundrum herself. She had a choice between two men in her life, one an ENTP and the other an INFJ. The ENTP is perfect for her in every way except this deep longing that she has for emotional connection. ENTPs cannot provide this, which is why I’ve said they are the perfect partner for an INFJ. They pretty much just completely circumvent and nullify the INFJ id, rendering it a non-issue.
The only type that could meet an INFJ at their id and probably satisfy that deep longing is another INFJ. This is liable to be one of the love relationships of epic order. However, it is fatal and tragic in aspect. Love to death.
The INFJ woman mentioned the possibility of both. That is the Venus in Cancer (implied Venus position of INFJ) tendency towards triangles in love. And now that I think about it that may be the natural Venus position of INFJ. The swoon. The Beatles early heavenly giddy teenage love songs. The hysterical girls that pass out in a fit of giddy love.
I hadn’t thought of that before this consciously, but, in my INFJ articles I usually give the solution to all these Fi id-derived problems as Fe, so maybe that would imply Venus in Cancer, as well as the Sun in Fe Pisces (INFJ has an implied Pisces Sun).
What I mean is, yeah, don’t only expand your love impulse out into wider social networks but also have two relationships at once or multiple shorter-term love relationships. This would be the two aspects of Fe in INFJ (Cancer and Fe Pisces) as there are the two id Fi positions for them as well (Scorpio and Fi Pisces).
So, polygamy polyamory maybe is the solution specifically for the Fi urge in INFJ to focus so much on one relationship and getting as much as you can from one partner. Venus in Cancer (implied Venus of INFJ) seems to indicate that colorful, giddy teenage love feeling. But, then, it is over after the infatuation phase passes. I think that is what Venus in Cancer implies – being interested in the first throngs of love. It isn’t love in the deep sense, but, love in the sensational, swooning sense. Like all the girls that loved the Beatles. They love them in that Venus in Cancer hysterical way. That’s not true love. This type of love is heightened by the unavailability of the love-object. Or that other girls are having them too, which makes them more desirable and dreamy.
Solution = have two lovers at a time. Probaly not too much more than that, because, after all, INFJs aren’t really players. But, two seems right. Like another INFJ girl I know mentions wanting to be a passive participant in a married couple’s life. Yes, I could see that. Cancer doesn’t really want to be responsible. It’s like they want to enter an established thing and be the charming baby that is moodily there when it wants to be and gone when it doesn’t. Also, it could keep INFJ out of the jealousy thing because that other person wasn’t theirs in the first place. That person was already married or together with another person first. So, it was never under the guise of that other person belonging to them exclusively.
I think INFJ would make great lovers who are a kind of a third wheel that might enter into an established and maybe somewhat boring and staid relationship and liven it up a bit. Secret lovers.
Cancer and Cuckolding
If INFJ is married they may fantasize about someone else entering into the relationship. Maybe guy INFJs would enjoy the fantasy of another man fucking his wife and he is the cuckold.
Maybe this is where the pussy-eating thing comes from. I think Cancer is the sign that most like to eat pussy and be smothered and all that. I see the women INFJs wanting their pussies eaten and the men wanting to eat pussy. The women would more embody the implied Cancerian Venus (and the implied Scorpio Moon) than the INFJ man, who would more seek that type of women.
But, INFJ women aren’t dominant in the sense of the Se and Te thing. It is more just a passive and strong magnetism and receptivity to this, and also with that certain type of man, like the one who tries to please her.
With the more dominant man that she craves, she would be more liable and open to being completely owned and used for whatever the man desires. But, the key is he has to be believable this way for her, make her feel really slutty and trashy, treat her like a little fuck slave slut. But, she won’t let on that she is really like this. The guy has to make the hard moves and make this side of her come out. On a conscious level, she is liable to maintain a certain dignity and exemption from all of this. To her more secret self, she longs to be penetrated like the hard mystery that she is. She longs for the dominance over her rogue and uncertain nature, for someone to master her, bust her ass open, and plow away at her like no tomorrow. In her deepest self, this is what she really wants.
And yet, yes, she still does want that love and true understanding of her. But, she doesn’t really respect this. And she is like a dangerous and double-tongued snake in this regard. She doesn’t know herself well enough here (often) to know what she really wants. She doesn’t want understanding. She wants to be violated and made to serve to someone that she can believe in as a source of power and will.
It’s like a ruse or a surface trick kind of thing, to weed out the weaklings. If you give her what she often claims she wants, then you will be dead meat. If you fall in love with her, ugh, that is such a turn off on some level to her.
Why?
Because she doesn’t respect anyone that will have her as a member of their club. On a deep level, the INFJ woman believes she is shit and worthless. This is true for healthy or unhealthy INFJs. It is just a thing of the primal and coarsely-developed and regressive id nature. Yes, on other levels she doesn’t believe that. But, in the id, it is always like this. The id is dumb, can’t learn, can’t change etc.
So, every INFJ has that trap door in themselves that never changes, that self that lies there under its halter, saddle, and whatever things you lay on top of it to control it. Deep down every INFJ feels culpable, dirty, shameful, lustful, hellhoundish, dark, disarrayed, infinitely susceptible etc. And because they have this id, like a law of physics, this is the way they must feel deep down as a rule.
INFJs may be a lot of things but what drives them deep down is a conviction of the skankiness and through-and-through jaded and innocence-long-since-faded, and well…just the whole Scorpion nature which cannot be changed. And in the INFJ the Scorpion nature is in its most fallen and negative and black state, so, not high Scorpio. It can’t really change, it can only be sublimated, or rather, other selves can be engaged to rise above it. Taken at its own level with no checks and balances from anywhere else the INFJ Scorpio Moon is primed to sting and usurp and be treacherous and mutinous and hellish and burning and passionate, antisocial, hateful of society, sexually demonic and low-level astral, wanting to be possessed by desire, jealousy, sexual perversions of a low order and so on.
That will never change. It can be chastened, made conscious, expressed etc. but not changed in nature. It can probably even be drained off over time but still it has the same basic structure and will fill back up again in the same way. Like in AA where they say that the pickle is always a pickle and can’t go back to being a cucumber and how your disease (addiction) is growing there all the time with you even though you are no longer actively using and giving into it. The id is a self that can’t grow, learn, etc.
So, the basic solution
Because the id is like this and cannot change, if left fully to its own desires or engaged by putting oneself in situations that rely heavily on the function that falls at this position, you will get pretty predictable results.
That is why I have said INFJs in sexual-romantic relationships is a breeding ground for downgoings and downfalls. I basically said it is futile for INFJ to be in long-term sexual/romantic relationships because they will devour the beloved (Fi Scorpio Moon) under the guise of trying to save them (12th house Fi).
Or they will want to be saved themselves. But, I don’t think I mentioned that in the article proper. It is more that I was saying that they present as these perfectly understanding creatures, which, of course, draws people to them for relationship prospects, but, they are like a mirage in this respect because what seemed so heavenly at the outset will turn into a hell at the inset.
And the hell will not be that overt hell where it is just intolerable and you will quickly run out of it. No, it will be a well-meaning hell (12th house) where it seems like the INFJ is sacrificing for the other person, saving them, and the INFJ will be aware of how much they care in certain moments.
But, inevitably, due to the Scorpio Moon they will betray, devour, suck up, test, put into a dark astral maze, stun the will, hypnotize, mesmerize, be afraid to be abandoned…it is like this power play of Scorpio in very negative sense…”I won’t leave you, but you won’t leave me either”, so, a taking of a hostage to stave off loneliness, keeping the person dependent on the INFJ in some way…there is also the Scorpio pride thing mixed with the sign’s natural sensitivity and relational capacities, which are often overpowering and potent for one person to take the brunt of. So, Scorpio can’t ask directly for help or intimacy. It plays games to test if the other person still loves them, and ultimately, to find out if the Scorpio person (INFJ) is still in the position of power in the relationship, even though it will often appear outwardly to be not at all like this, and often, quite the opposite. The INFJ women will appear submissive and deferential. They will dominate on an emotional level undetectably. They will cover their tracks. They are like spies in the house of love.
On the other hand, INFJ’s Fi Pisces, the other side of their id, isn’t like this at all. It is sincere and sacrificial to the point of self-immolation. But, with their implied Scorpio Moon, there is always this ENTJ-echoed/reactive flavor to their love. Love is a game where you have to play your cards right. They don’t merge with the beloved. They are always aware of not giving up control. They always keep their guard up and make sure they are protected. In other words, they are selfish. Ultimately.
However, in the final analysis
Yes, the 12th house Fi id, which is more of a total and complete finalizing component of the INFJ id. The implied Scorpio Moon position of INFJ is rather normative and operates as a matter of course. This aspect of the id might not normally be that bad, but, for the INFJ it is because of the fallen nature of the Moon in Scorpio per astrological tradition (which is correct). The implied Moon positions for other Myers-Briggs types are not necessarily innately negative as the INFJ version of this.
I think it is the 12 house component of the id that acts as finalizing mythology for any type, which means that, yes, for the INFJ type in the 11th hour, so to speak, they will totally eclipse themselves and all their desires and perceptions, and sacrifice for the greater whole.
I don’t know if this is necessarily in relation to a person that they are in relationship with but it could be. They could decide that despite all their built-up hatreds and resentments at the shortcomings and weaknesses etc. of the person that they are with, and how they are ultimately better than this person in some immeasurable and eternal way, the INFJ will nonetheless make an ultimate sacrifice for that person, which often means staying with them and not abandoning them and thus hurting them in a betrayal of that deep bond that INFJ inevitably makes with its long-term partners.
At the Scorpio Moon level, it was all about the other person and how they are not satisfactory enough as a relationship partner. They couldn’t meet the deep and burning needs of the INFJ etc.
At this 12th house id level, it is more about knowing this about themselves in addition to knowing all this shit about the other person, and now, instead of subtly, and with infinite precision, tearing this other person down and further weakening them, the INFJ becomes truly selfless, and either lets that other person go, or makes some kind of conscious decision to stay with that person under different auspices, which basically amounts to “this person is human, I have inhumane desires for intimacy that no mortal could ever satisfy and which make me burn, this person is basically a good person (or not, but, whatever) who has been with me for some time, they have been loyal, put up with my intensity and poisonous nature etc., and now it is my turn to be selfless even if deep down I don’t want to be and it totally goes against all my personal desires with every ounce of my being.
Isn’t this the Jesus Christ trip? Isn’t this what all Christianity is founded upon, this divine mercy and ultimate sacrifice?
Yes, I think so.
So, either being selfless enough to either let the person go, even though you want to use them further for your own less-than-healthy needs for intimacy and to save yourself from loneliness, or you man-up and say “this person doesn’t deserve this no matter who they are or what I think of them. It only sickens me to participate in this dynamic of secretly hating my partner.” This causes INFJ a lot of pain because they know that they have this deep caring and extreme capacity for complete selflessness and sacrifice. So, here at the 12th house (the final house) they will make this decision.
The whole id thing is fraught with extreme emotional heaviness and gravitas in either permutation.
It’s all so Christian and heavy in the final analysis. And in the normative, it is hellish, dark, and witchy, like maggots breeding and feeding in the moonlight.
And it is all fucked up.
So, celebrate. Neither of these paths needs to be followed.
Follow the solar path. Follow the path of Venus. These are the two paths of Fe for an INFJ.
More on this next time. If I feel a bug crawl up my ass. Or I get such a huge amount of donations following this article’s release that I have no choice but to oblige a desperate populace.
Whatever. I move to bring this clitoral clusterfuck to a close.
All in favor say “an eye for an eye”.
O, and I trust you can find the donation button just fine and dandy. No need to further sully this article with commercial insets. And it ain’t called a maze for nothing. Find the damn thing!
I also offer consulting services which you will probably need after reading this.
Well, I’m here to help.
Well, just the other day I posted a comment as a male INFJ (although I’m not too sure on this) and the release of this article is rather spookily timed from my point of view relative to that.
I could post another rather long retort of my own take on my experiences in relationships and the opinions I share.. Some of which may well be protecting my own image and I don’t see the situation clearly, I’m not sure. The gist is there in some sense, whether or not I would portray things in the same words or exactly the same way, you’re onto something.. But I didn’t want to go there.
I just wanted to ask a question: Do you truly believe it’s fruitless for an INFJ to attempt to get into a long term relationship? Or is it just that the dynamics and the personality type make it difficult to maintain balance for the INFJ? .. For example you suggested finding a relationship when approaching your goal as if that may be better.. But perhaps the point is the INFJ needs to be satisfied to satisfy their partner fully and ultimately if they enter into a relationship they focus too much on their partner and not on their own happiness?
“Do you truly believe it’s fruitless for an INFJ to attempt to get into a long term relationship?”
No, but I think it is particularly hard for them based on the dynamics I mentioned in this article and the forerunner to it.
I could blow sunshine up INFJ’s asses like everyone else on the internet, but, I choose to actually be somewhat helpful in something approaching some semblance of reality. My descriptions of INFJs are not based off some idealistic bullshit. It is based off much long observation of the type in the real world. Anyway, I see INFJs as having a rather interesting psychology, which I don’t think they should trade for the world. And I know they wouldn’t anyway. INFJs are in love with themselves.
I think you meant to say “futile” rather than “fruitless” but, no, I don’t think it is futile. I think I am doing a service to INFJs by coming out with this information because it is pointing out a general tendency of the type in relationship. I could lie to them and say everything will be all hunky-dory because INFJs are all-knowing, all-seeing, all-empathizing and selfless angels who never think of themselves above others, so of course they would be the most excellent candidates for healthy and happy relationships. However, experience doesn’t bear that out. It ain’t like that. That’s bullshit. And I personally am tired of it. Thus, the way I write.
“Or is it just that the dynamics and the personality type make it difficult to maintain balance for the INFJ?”
Yes, it is difficult for them to maintain balance in a relationship because of the id dynamics I described in this article and alluded to in its forerunner article.
“For example you suggested finding a relationship when approaching your goal as if that may be better.. But perhaps the point is the INFJ needs to be satisfied to satisfy their partner fully and ultimately if they enter into a relationship they focus too much on their partner and not on their own happiness?
Yes, an INFJ needs to be satisfied before they can satisfy anyone else, which implies the use of their Fe auxiliary which I have mentioned many times on Stellar Maze. Else, they tend to focus way too much on their partner and what this human is or isn’t doing.
I have said before that an INFJ would have a better chance at maintaining balance in a relationship if they have something in their life that turns them on that doesn’t rely on anyone else but their own initiative. Often this initiative is employed in art of some kind or another but it could take different forms. The bottom-line is that INFJs need to express themselves fully and freely to be happy. And they need to create something in their life that is meaningful and significant BESIDES an exclusive romantic/sexual relationship.
INFJs tend to focus too much on saving or being saved by other people. This is a part of the Fi id dynamic I was describing in this article. They need to save themselves. Fe is the way. Then they can have all the fine and deep relating that they want. Because then it will be in balance.
However, please note that INFJs are very susceptible to going out of balance via their Fi id. So, a successful INFJ will learn to keep a close watch on it. An INFJ can easily have their whole life unbalanced by a romantic relationship that runs out of control in some way. Or is too much in control. Let’s not forget the latter too. INFJs can be alternately too in control and too out of control. They got some doozies in the emotional department. There is no lying about that.
But, hey! INFJs are fascinating psychologically just for this very Fi id dynamic I speak of. Hell, it’s the very thing that makes them emotionally deep people. But, they are sensitive and very susceptible to their feelings until they get some control of them. But, ironically, not too much control of them. Because that is another way they fuck themselves – completely shutting off their emotional nature out of bitterness and cynicism.
Ultimately, INFJs are very beautiful people. Like beautiful fucked up masterpieces of art. In their highest expressions. And many of the greatest artists that have ever lived were INFJs. That Fi id comes in handy when it acomes a time to be doing some significant art. O yes indeed.
Sublime and sublimate.
Ugh so late. And perhaps pointless. But this was so right it hurt. Except I hadn’t ever experienced it until recently (I’m 31) but I think it’s because I had a (kinda)healthy on and off( more on but there was that I can’t live w/o you turmoil) relationship with an ENTP for 8 years. But then had a bunch of trauma and the relationship ended very scary.(he turned into someone else)
But we were lucky. Matched well. Started young and for some reason his true love for me was so fulfilling because of its simplicity. He wasn’t dumb.,. But it was like we really did get each other in a non psychotherapist way. His goofy ness cut me taking myself too seriously down to size. Idk the perfect tension. The perfect passion. Endless fascination. Built on baby hearts as a foundation.(also I was raised by my INTP father. Only child. Just me and him) and he was the middle of 5 and the next 2 came after 8 yrs of being the baby. I think I made him feel seen. I was programmed to enjoy his sense of humor( it was like my dad on a good day almost every day) and he wasn’t even aware of the egg shells I scattered around for every other person in my life(but then tried to tell them to disregard) which I loved so much. I could normally twist people into pretzels debating but he cut me down to size with NONSENSE. Beautiful.
But then some spooky shit happened and he changed. But he made me leave him!!! Which was the most traumatic part. (I pathetically still have ptsd 2 yrs later)
But my recognition is in the current situation. I think he is ISFP?? Idk but he is VERY fi and thinks I’m a huge phony. He Casanova-d me then at the first tiny indication of criticism or something other than devout worship. He has not trusted me. Which with my ptsd made me insane so now I am ‘fallen’ ..he has seen me at my worst most of the time. It’s frustrating because normally I could have easily given him what he needed. Just shined my brightest light and reflecting what he desires most back to him. But now we are deadlocked in this sick cycle exactly as described above.(I am a literal Pisces moon tho. So it could be worse??)
But it’s just torn the hole in my heart bigger. (Wanting my partner in crime back)And I was unwell to start with so I’m utterly dependent. Starting to be able to stand. Starting to be able to see with my own eyes. But it’s so unhealthy… he has no boundaries… cheating I think( no proof) and he wants to keep me because he’s just not the type to throw things away…. lol. I am an object. A broken mirror that shows him the truth he doesn’t ( but secretly does) want to see to validate his unhealthy (vengeful) actions against me.
Like I could be like my pop keeps tasting funny… that is taken as an accusation then my bad trauma filled ‘observation’ (anything attempting intuitive is seen as shots fired) will I swear to fucking god become my actual reality ( now my pop tastes funny for an actual reason)
Sorry.
Your shit is brilliant. Wonderful. I love good hearted criticism. Real ness . And of course I love hearing about my favorite subject… me. (Almost punched myself making that last joke… but it would not be a joke if it had no truth)
Going to go read some more positive stuff.
Btw I could and would make it work with the current guy. If we could manage to communicate. But since he refuses or cant..truly see me. It seems hopeless. Not to mention the fact that he genuinely cannot see that I am genuine in my attempts at building a bridge. I know he loves me. But for someone who can’t express mild disdain or dislike for anything…. he sure drops the L word like popcorn that misses my mouth at the theater.
Thanks for the rude awakening! I feel exposed! haha I think you’re the first person I’ve ever come across who has actually mentioned anything as closely accurate to how we unicorns think and feel about sex and intimacy. I was conflicted between wanting to cry (retrieve to a dark corner to lick my wounds)…AND devilishly grinning like an idiot at the same time! lol it was such an immensely enlightening read (the good, the bad and the hideous parts of ourselves that we keep hidden) but it resonated with me on so many levels lol It’s fucked up, raw and honest but I loved it! You‘ve literally RIPPED us all (INFJs) a new one! Lol It was harsh and at times – squirmish asf but I respect your insightful perspective on us lol
Sending you a warm hug, a slap across the face and kiss too (and yes, in that order) lol Much love, Anime xx
Agreed. I am an INFJ woman who has been in a relationship for 17 years. I love the shit out of my husband and want to please him always. I can get extremely hurt if I’ve been neglected for long periods of time and if hurts go unfixed for too long I lose all motivation to participate in making my husband happy. Usually our “dark” times last about 2-4 months about every 3 years the rest of the time we laugh our asses off together and have the most amazing sex and we just get each other.
I’m sorry but you did take a giant shit here. And you sound like one too. What’s with the Promise Keepers red pill ridiculousness you’ve trotted out here? I couldn’t even finish reading this. I want a man to control me? I want to be violated? I want polyamory? Start over and try again because what’s here is so wrong and so hateful that even you deserve better than what you’ve posted here.
Look, try not to take everything personally. When you say incredulously “I want …?”, you are assuming that you are the only INFJ on the planet. I’m sorry, but that pisses me off. I do not like when people come here and just drop their own shit without anything but their own experience as evidence. If you don’t agree with this, that’s fine, but, honestly, I do not know who the fuck you are. And your commentary really means very little if you are just refuting it based on your own experience. I don’t mind feedback and I actually want feedback, but, please try to make it insightful and intelligent.
I already prefaced this article with saying I was going to take a giant shit. I was upfront about that. If you don’t want to read something that is the equivalent of taking a shit, then don’t. What else can I tell ya?
Also, this post is NOT HATEFUL. It is truthful (to me at least). There is a difference.
Use your common sense. If it don’t fit you, then don’t wear it. Yes, I might be wrong. But, I don’t think I am that far off.
I don’t know why it would be ridiculous to say that an INFJ woman has a love nature that responds to control, violation, or polyamory. If you can tell me why that would be ridiculous, by all means, chime in.
INFJs sound like they’re more of a hassle than they’re worth. I think I’ll stick to ESFJs.
Yeah, no doubt that certain types of people will not be able to relate to the INFJ. But, to the ones that can they offer a very special gift that no other type can.
I guess this is really true for all types. But, INFJs in relationship are pretty much the marriage of heaven and hell.
ESFJs are much more middle of the road, conventional types in relationship. And really in all aspects of their lives.
So, it depends what you’re looking for.
I think an emotionally intelligent man could figure out how to keep my grotesque id at arms’ length while still delivering meaning. This is what I do and it is what I want someone to do to me.
Let me ask you a question. Do you think your id is grotesque or are you just saying that because of what you read here?
What meaning are you waiting for a man to deliver to you?
“Grotesque” woulda been in quotes, but I’m not sure you said the actual word. We’re playing this game and I’m playing along. I’m not saying I fully agree. Nor do I fully disagree. It’s grim, for sure, and I’m cautious to buy into that.
Who would want a relationship that offers less than meaning? Meaning = content. Original content. Music over noise. Improvisation over rote learning. Communication and union. Communion? As years have gone by I’ve learned to push the agenda less and let it come to me. Which it does. But being properly partnered is essential.
I’m not playing a game. But, I do commend you for being cautious about buying into anything written here without some corroborating affirmation.
Sigh.
I’m using the term “game” as an analogy…it seems you’ve set up some rules and/or assumptions, if you will; I am trying them on for size, playing “let’s assume this true – where would that leave me?” Still, I get that you’re serious.
I’m fascinated by your insight, I truly am. I’d be willing to say that a lot of this post – if not most of it – describes my instinct and pattern in love. Even down to what my 2014 love interest – a dedicated and experienced sexual Dom – described as my “doom fixation” and my “put up or shut up” mentality – when it ended. Yeah, he left and I didn’t follow. He was stubborn, and probably a little bit weak. But he understood me…and goddamn, he was good with words. Fuck me but I worshipped that guy. Anyway, I digress. This situation will not happen again. Right? Don’t answer that.
Still, this “no relationship can truly withstand your emotional undertow” business…it requires serious questioning. It is as if you are taking a pivot point or a facet of the whole and ignoring any counterbalance. I guess it’s helpful if not hoarded and magnified in the reader’s mind? You know it is inevitable for your readers to hoard and magnify this even more.
I agree with you. And I agree with the others, the ones who are pissed. I a don’t think this is a fatal flaw. A stumbling block perhaps. Maybe because I’m made of conflict and sewn together by evermore conflict, it doesn’t seem as bad as all that, really. I see it and go “mmm, surmountable.” I do wonder if you aren’t extrapolating this from (intensely) personal experience.
I am curious as to where your observations are drawn from, with regard to female INFJs, yes, but also overall.
It is surmountable but only with proper knowledge and a full appreciation of how deadly it can be. And how desirable.
I mean, people can of course do what they want and carry on in whatever manner they deem sufficient to get them through this world at any given moment of any given day.
I’m just illustrating a dynamic of INFJ in no uncertain terms that may seem overkill to some but may be an “aha” moment to others. Basically, if you don’t resonate with what I’m talking about here there is no reason to get alarmed about it. Even if you do resonate with it, there is no reason to get alarmed.
Appreciate the flux of your dark juices. But, I see no reason to pretend that they aren’t dark and also not juicy.
You like black licorice?
Not everyone does. Some do.
You like vanilla?
Everyone likes vanilla. It’s not overtly offensive in any way. Bland and like white, everyone’s type.
Like a enneatype 3 ESTP. Vanilla through and through.
I draw my observations from observation. I have observed many female INFJs over the years and they reek of death in a sugar bottle blues.
And me likes it. It is a strong flavor for hearty souls. Or oblivious ones (ENTPs).
So, celebrate. You are a fine and fermented age old wine of death and burning life and blues and oblivion.
Who the hell wants to drink vanilla wine?
I’m 4 years late to the party but I just wanna say that this article is an applaudable source of conviction for my breed. I am all of this and you placed it into words so beautifully. (Although some of the raunchier language made me squirm a bit—irony)
The commenters who are missing it have yet to be introduced to themselves. Or they are mistyped.
There’s also a huge difference between understanding one’s humanity and entertaining one’s humanity.
“What a wretched man I am…”
Haha! Loved the article, Blake. We INFJs aren’t really that insufferable, are we? I like to think we we have complex wiring. Can’t agree with everything, but it was a fun read. My INFJ-INFJ relationship of eight years is still as passionate, intense, and fulfilling as day one. I agree that only another INFJ will do it for us, everyone else’s lack of perceived insight and that ineffable quality is boring, annoying, saddening, and had me moving on in the past searching for one who swims in the same deep waters as myself. Advice to other INFJs: Get yourself an INFJ lover! 😉
“We INFJs aren’t really that insufferable, are we?”
I don’t think INFJs are insufferable at all. I love INFJs. These are some of the most interesting creatures walking the earth.
(Just figured out how the comment section works…reposting my reply properly)
Why thank ya! And whatever your type is (INTJ?) you’re one of the
‘most interesting creatures walking the earth’ too. I’m going to start calling you the INFJ Whisperer.
One question: In all honesty, were you in a foul mood when you wrote this article? Or perhaps not to pleased with a certain INFJ you know? I ask because this article has an emotionally chaotic vibe to it than your other articles.
Enjoy your site immensely. Your perspective on typology is refreshingly insightful and clear (Ni voodoo). Stay badass.
“One question: In all honesty, were you in a foul mood when you wrote this article? Or perhaps not to pleased with a certain INFJ you know? I ask because this article has an emotionally chaotic vibe to it than your other articles.”
That’s three questions 🙂
The emotionally chaotic vibe is probaly due to my temporary embodiment of the Fi id of INFJ while I was writing this article. That’s a key to my writing: I convey the nature of whatever I’m discussing in the tone of my writing. So, the tone is very instrumental in painting a picture of a type. When I write about ENTPs I embody ENTPness. When I write about INFJ, I embody more of that etc.
So, it is no surprise that this article has a chaotic emotional vibe because that is exactly what Fi id of INFJ is.
As for your question about not being pleased with a certain INFJ that I know, the answer is emphatically no. None of my INFJ articles are motivated by any particular displeasure of certain INFJ. I do not write article about types motivated by any one person of that type. What I’m writing here is a composite sketch of the totality of this Fi id feeling and dynamic that I get from INFJs in general.
It may not apply to any given INFJ, but, I maintain that it is a general dynamic of the type in general. It may be latent, less activated, and less extreme in any given INFJ, but as far as defining the flavor of the id dynamic (particularly for women), this would be my characterization of it. It may seem extreme but it is extreme in its extreme. More so than the id of any other type.
Ahhh, the method in your madness…well done, Sir! Well done indeed. You fully did embody the tsunami that is the Fi id of INFJ. And thank you for shedding light on what is still in the shadows for many.
I’m sure many will agree, but I can only speak for myself: If I could keep the bottomless sea within from constantly churning and dictating my life then I would, but I am more mermaid-ish (siren and all) in nature than I’d like to admit.
Btw, now I feel like devouring you… only because I’ve grown so fond of you – You got a beautiful mind.
I’ve been in an infj-infj relationship for nearly 14 years, there have been times where we’ve nearly loved each other to death, drained each other, broken each other, we even divorced for a year. That said, I’ve never met anyone else who understands me and my needs the way he does, and even though it has been a volatile relationship at times, it has also been fulfilling beyond measure. Is it a healthy relationship? Idk, probably not, but I like it anyway.
Sounds about right.
Wow.
Once again Blake, nail on head.
Your observations, analysis, Ti, seeing the subtle nuisances- whatever it is- you always nail the INFJ.
Yea. Don’t. So I guess I’m typing myself but just last week I said no more. Over the last 3 years it’s been constant birds eye view epiphanies. I thought okay, one month long surface shit tops. No. Gets too intense and just like you said … I realized I was setting up these poor people for … So no.
One night stands while traveling?
Yea.
Yup.
One thing did come to mind though. I don’t know you, or your experiences but you are very intelligent. In the details a lot of people don’t see. Does the rabbit hole of the INFJ somehow provide you with enough … Dots to connect? Not a finger point just genuinely curious.
Also… For me personally (I live socionics) ESTPs have been the only…. All our juxtapositions and outright cold and selfish behaviors even with the Fi id… Only ones who fucking get it. Not get it. Fluid? Cyclical. We really are the same but flipped.
It took me a while but I’ve just accepted it. I’ve realized what I’ve been doing.
Every damn word you’ve ever written about us is so on point and I’m sorry (let me finally get this out) but any INFJ who tries to refute or deny this is either still wearing her Pollyanna victim infallible glasses or … I’ll just stop here.
So funny too. Closest friend is ENTJ… Just nodding my head to your comparison.
I’m tired of myself and since it all clicked recently…. I don’t want to send anyone falling down any of my selfish rabbit holes.
And the descriptions of the INFJ online. Ha!
ENTPs do quell some things. I enjoy them. I’m too selfish to hear them constantly ramble because I’m of course in my own head thinking shit I can’t believe sticks in and spirals through my mind.
I’d better stop rambling.
Timing was kismet though. Last retrograde really helped me.
Don’t get sucked in again.
Every word.
On point.
Resonation Proclamation!
Why thank ya! And whatever your type is (INTJ?) you’re one of
‘most interesting creatures walking the earth’ too. I’m going to start calling you the INFJ Whisperer.
Enjoy your site immensely. Your perspective on typology is refreshing insightful and clear (Ni voodoo). Stay badass.
*refreshingly
This is an article where I think “Maybe I am not an INFJ after all”. (I’m not passive-aggressively saying that you’re wrong about this stuff, or offended. I just don’t relate to a lot of it.)
I think of my femaleness as a sort of layer cake. The superficial, externally-visible layer is that I am independent and sort of friendly-distant. Underneath that is a submissive persona who I have an ambivalent relationship with – it is very anxious and wants to submit to powerful figures to relieve the anxiety but simultaneously feels that the powerful figures are not good enough, smart enough, strong enough, to handle itself or understand the persona’s value. So there is a very dismissive, potentially cruel and frankly super arrogant aspect to that same submissive persona, and it tends to withhold itself from others. But then underneath THAT is ultimately, I think, someone who doesn’t care about individual other people all that much.
I don’t relate to the wanting to devour, really, although maybe I don’t fully understand the metaphors you’re using. I think there is maybe a sort of surface feeling of wanting to BE devoured, in a kind of abstract way where the persona wants to be totally consumed and overwhelmed by a forcefully dominant figure because then it could stop projecting the difficult-to-maintain surface persona of independence and knowing what to do when really I am someone who doesn’t know where you buy stamps. It feels to me that actually on more visible-to-others levels I seem more into relationships (all relationships, not just romantic ones) than I really am. On very deep levels, there is a sense that I am more detached than the other person in the dynamic.
I also don’t think I share the notion that deep-seated feelings of unworthiness are permanent: I have shed a lot of that over time, and they no longer feel permanent to me.
When I was younger, I was more into the drama of various romances, the sturm und drang of delicious unfulfilled longing, but now I find myself having sort of impatient feelings, like – who cares! Other people are not that interesting! Or like my standards for caring are really, really high. I presently find that the more I am able to get out of the thinking trap, the less I am really that interested in other peoples’ feelings about me. Eg I think once I related to archetypes of femininity that involved being the object who is saved and consumed by the powerful, and now I relate more to archetypes of oracles. (I have been thinking about oracles a lot recently.)
But like I said, definitely possible that I am not an INFJ. Who knows? Interesting post either way.
I think, BTW, that my spouse is probably an INTJ. Low-end genius intelligence, sensitive but much less of an emo disaster than I am. I often find the things he has to say extremely interesting, which is not a thing that happens to me super often with people I know well for long periods of time, it’s sort of like I like the part where I crack the code on who they are and once I understand “You are a person who needs others to believe X about you because you fear that you are Y” or whatever is happening, I kind of lose interest, and the only thing that maintains my interest is someone being intellectually really compelling to me. Again, very possible that I’m not an INFJ, but for someone with my set of weird traits, I think a very intelligent partner is probably a good way to go, because I feel so dismissive of and bored by people who can’t spot systems and don’t like talking about systems. I often impatiently feel that other people are kinda dumb when really they aren’t at all, they are just… you know, I think it was only with Jungian theory that I realized that what I see as “dumb” is probably just “sensing” as a leading preference, they aren’t burdened with what I perceive to be normal, a brain that never stops scanning for patterns.
I feel like this all makes me sound like a semi-terrible person! (One of the things I like about your INFJ descriptions is your recognition that on the outside, someone might be very “kind”, and on the inside they might be a bitchy dick.)
Your name is so appropriate to the whole proceeds.
So, INFJ, do you see the fucking elephant now?!
Nice.
As for being a bitchy dick, hey, why not, if you got the goods to be.
Amorality.
Not a catastrophe.
But, more…
The love of laughter
The love of disaster.
Hmmm…hadn’t seriously considered this as a need: craving intellectual conversation on an ongoing basis.
God, when does it end with these f-ing cravings?!
This was completely spot on. Which I guess kind of sucks. It is a relief to see it written out, though. So it’s an infj thing after all.. who would have thought.
And then she sighs 🙂
Well Blake, you have certainly gotten to the bottom of the INFJ love mystery. I agree with all of it, so a big thanks from me.Your analysis shines light on my conclusion that two long distance relationships with an INFJ and an INTJ is the way for me in the short term.
Your other point about INFJs needing to feel fulfilled via FE activities, before feeling balanced enough to be capable of enjoying full dedicated commitment to one person, strikes me as very sound advice. From experience I have given too much, obsessed too much in the absense of an all consuming artistic FE endeavour. Very insightful Blake; you are the INFJ whisperer for sure!
Your welcome 🙂
Although I am a male INFJ, some of this resonates in me. I just know that a marriage or a long-term relationship with their typical implications would result in a disaster, and for a long time I dreamed to marry the best friend I’ve ever had (who I believe is an ENFJ – God forgive me), who was sooo messed up, just so to fulfill her desire for marriage and to be a “cicisbeo” (I can’t find a real equivalent in English, sorry) for her, since I knew far too well my position in her love chart. Then she denied to have ever considered the idea (I think genuinely, she really forgets much of her stuff), I made the fatal mistake to go away from her by my own terms, and after some other events the relationship fell apart; but that’s for another story…
Now I’m trying to extrovert and get to know new people without knowing very well what to do (I’ve started to read Tarot cards, but I need to find consultants and I don’t know well how) and I came to terms with the fact that I can’t live all my life as a Carthusian monk or a lighthouse keeper like I dreamed for so long – it’s a genuine part of me which I need to listen to, but still just a part. Sometimes I long for a harem – without going too far and exaggerating; five or six women can be fine – and I don’t get all this fuss about physical infidelity (“it’s your life, why have you even thought of telling me?” – something like this). But for now, I’m just contemplating and getting into beauty, without trying to get to a relationship too hard. I’m just trying to let it happen, which is already difficult enough for me. I resided in a cynical and self-absorbed persona, who longed for being a Vulcan, for too much time.
Well, I just needed to express myself a bit, I guess.
Yes, and thank you for expressing yourself here. It is relevant and beautifully said. Thank you.
Hi Blake-boo! Feeling affectionate in between sleep spurts here at 3AM. 😛
By “polygamy”, do you mean polyamory? Polygamy is a multi-person MARRIAGE, and I find that to bit a bit terrifying. Marriage at all…hm, but MAYBE it could work…
Also, check out your comments re: polyamory in your Culture of Like article –> https://www.stellarmaze.com/the-culture-of-like/#comment-5792
Do you still subscribe to the “straddling the gap” perception, or do you think the INFJ falls towards the polyamorous end of the spectrum these days? Or perhaps the INFJ has their own brand of polyamory?
Eh, maybe not an INFJ-brand at all. I can see “solo poly” being the closest possible version of polyamory, for me, personally.
Okay I also want to say that I think the internet is interesting. You’re the only person I’ve found on the Internet who fucks around by not fucking around when it comes to MBTI talk. And as an INFJ, of course I’m obsessed with learning about myself, so you’re now my go-to person. But then, I’ve found myself being tempted to see you as sort of a “know-it-all”, and while you know a lot, it has been…a wake-up call? to watch you on your site as you change your mind / evolve your opinions (cough cough, Colbert) or maybe simply say “I don’t fucking know. I’m just working with what I know.”
The basic human tendency to sit back in a therapist’s office chair and say “DO ME” and expect someone else to just tell you all about yourself and what you should do next.
That temptation / unconscious habit never goes away, I guess.
Instead of taking it upon OURSELVES to read shit and constantly question whether or not it rings true for us. We get lazy and demanding or entitled or outraged when shit doesnt’ fit us perfectly when we always have the power to say “yes” or “no” to other people’s descriptions of us.
Not all of this fits me, for one reason or another. But the overall energy of the article hits home and I’m taking that and using it to build more confidence as I use my intuition to make my next choices in life. Thanks for that opportunity with every article you publish.
Rambling now. I love you. Okay good night.
(OOH THIS IS THE MOST I’VE COMMENTED EVAH)
Also, this is old news to you, I know. And I’m still working on it. BUT I’m finding that when I’m using most of my energy towards my dream and vision of creating a life driven by helping others through life coaching/facilitating/speaking/teaching/writing, etc., dating is a lot more fun. Maybe even life?
I’m seeing a few people now and for the first time in my life, I feel like I can be an individual outside of them and not lose myself in them every time they put a hand on my thigh or something, lol.
It’s new for me and a relief and might be the sublimation of the constant threat of the Fi accretions you’ve talked about before. Now, I’m also starting to experience feeling too in control of my emotions / being detached, which you talk about HERE in this post!
But it’s good for me, I think. Being able to go home to my own apartment and then meeting lots of people through “deep discussions” and then enjoying one or two people romantically.
So basically, all of this discovery and experimentation is all so fun! Well, mostly. Until I freak out by overanalyzing and make everything life or death and take it too seriously. Habit.
BUT THEN I WRITE AND IT’S ALL OKAY
RINSE AND REPEAT UNTIL I DIE
Love you again I’VE GOT TO PUT MY HEAD TO THE BED BYE
p.s. i think i was just trying to praise you by giving you personal examples of how Fe is working to balance Fi in my life and say you’re preaching some seriously life-changing shit for me at least but you knew that already
Hey Michelle. Yes, I did mean “polyamory.” Thanks for pointing that out. I corrected it in the article.
“Do you still subscribe to the “straddling the gap” perception, or do you think the INFJ falls towards the polyamorous end of the spectrum these days? Or perhaps the INFJ has their own brand of polyamory?”
I think the latter is likely. I mean, don’t INFJs have their own brand of everything? Nothing ready-made quite fits them.
But, yes, I still stand by them “straddling the gap.” INFJs aren’t players and they aren’t stayers.
They got some unique shit going on. That’s fer sure.
Thanks for your realization that I might actually be a person that changes my mind from time to time. I’m fully willing to do that if things come to light that compel me to do so.
However, I’m pretty solid on the vast brunt of what I say.
Thanks for your insightful comments. Love it!
(OOH THIS IS THE MOST I’VE COMMENTED EVAH)
Michelle
****lol I like ur style-how u express yourself!!
Very interesting ! Honestly….i dont relate to much of it….but….i wonder if other people may see me that way…which would explain some of the unpleasantness i’ve experienced in relationships.
I have a lot of moon in scorpio women in my life- 2 very close friends, one family friend, my daughter’s second mum, and my daughter (who is only a little kid who will not have to deal with these issues!). All these individuals happen to use fi in their first 4 functions, respectively enfp, infp, esfp, isfp, and entj. And i really do get what you are saying…these relationships that they have can be potentially dysfunctional and full of these bizarre power plays, intense jealousy and possession, mind games, codependency, addiction, extremes, and misery. On the other hand, they are intensely loyal, extremely supportive, very committed on a raw level, have a great depth or capacity for connection, and strangely conservative in their relationship/gender roles.
In regards to myself….i have my own bizarre idiosyncratic approach to relationships and share of dysfunctional experiences. I’ve never had that desire to get married and have one partner for life. The concept of marriage disturbs me, because of its exclusivity and restrictiveness. Nor have I felt the desire to start a relationship. Instead they are something that I tend to fall into and then not know how to navigate. I value my independence and solitude a great deal, and tend to resent anything or anyone that sucks time and energy away from my sense of freedom, or from my goals and values. So I try to create relationships that are based primarily on friendship, sharing and independence…but this can come across as uncaring and uninvested. I find it easy to connect to people, intensely…but I find it hard to ‘commit’ to people in a way that is meaningful to them. When things get too dramatic, or start interfering with rather than facilitating what I want to do in life, I shut down and get bored.
I tend towards open relationships that are based primarily on friendship. Polyamorous relationships are interesting to me, but not something i have tried. They sound like they could be demanding however and potentially high maintenance. I dont see the value in labelling something. I value inclusiveness, openness, trust, and friendship. People change, attraction changes….but friendship is beyond any of that. In many ways i’m asexual, sex is not something i need or a way i relate to other people in general. I can get happily consumed in work and not think about that aspect of life at all. On the other hand i’m bisexual and open minded in many ways, especially in regards to tantric and group activities. I see sex as sacred and spiritual. Being generally disassociated from my body, sometimes sex heightens this sensation, and sometimes it is grounding and physical in a very moving way. I get the feeling i could have been a celibate nun or a temple priestess whore. But i dont get this dominant/submissive thing at all…it kind of actually scares me or otherwise just sounds plain funny and ridiculous or annoying. I have not reacted well to it at all in the past. And i dont like the idea of control or non consensual, overpowering sex. I had some negative experiences when i was young, and i find a lot of that stuff confusing and upsetting. The more pressure someone puts on me in general, the more I retreat and disengage. That side of human culture- hierarchy, rules, powerplay stuff is yucky and confounding to me… people are people, I like socialist-anarchist values. Also, i cant stand jealously and possessiveness, and I do see people as weak when they behave in controlling ways, or act clingy or needy. A lot of relationships are unattractive to me- the ones described in songs, books, movies, the people around me…they sound pointless and draining. Love to me is a universal state, a state of being…I love everyone! i struggle to understand it in a different way, particularly in that monogamous romantic relationship context.
I dont know…clearly its hard to have a relationship with another being when the self is full of contradictions and the self want to remain committed to goals and visions above all else. I want intensity and lightheartedness equally. Trust and freedom equally. Passion and detachment. Solitude and connection. And because of that fi id thing- I want emotional connection yet need to have it be emotionally unchallenging and undemanding. There is enough emotional drainage from the general population to have this as an aspect of a personal relationship as well.
I have venus in gemini and mars in scorpio, and I find that a venus air sign is particularly attractive to me, in all levels of relationships. Im attracted to myself lol, after all I love my own company. And I do understand from experience how much having a relationship with me can fuck other people up and have no desire to inflict myself on others uninformed-ly again
I enjoyed reading your comment, Charlene! I relate to a lot of what you have said. “I don’t see the value in labelling something” sticks out to me as a quote. At first, I was like YEAH. But then I realized that I do have this unconscious drive to label EVERYTHING. Ti, maybe? Societal pressure Te?
It just never seems to work.
Some examples of “why” would be most of what you commented, chock-full of many, many near-extreme contradictions…intensity vs lightheartedness, trust vs freedom, passion vs detachment, solitude vs connection, a nun vs a temple whore, asexual vs bisexual – LOL!
Oh, INFJ…
Thank you for your comment!!! <3
@ Charlene
Thanks for commenting. Very insightful and edifying.
Blake -Thank you for being you
Michelle- Thanks for the kind comment, lol im glad you relate and my sympathies that you do!
Regarding the labeling thing, i relate too. I do label things …and generalise all the time. I think this happens as a natural consequence of trying to analyse/understand/contextualise something. And the value of labeling varies, depending on what is being labeled, the purpose of said labels, and the flexibility and potential evolution of labels. Labeling helps highlight something so that it can be viewed in context, but in this very process….through this necessary restricting and defining of our perception….we tend to lose our ability to connect with the gestalt . Overall, i dont think its a futile activity,…in some ways it seems like a necessary activity, especaily in terms of communication. I think the main reason i find it value-less is because labels carry expectations. Some people love labels for this very reason- labels create expectations- expectations create a sense of security, stability, certainty, predictability. In terms of relationships, i find these expectations stifling and restrictive rather than safe…because humans are complex creatures (if they are creatures at all), and in my opinion inherently fluid. A moment can change everything, an idea can change everything, a vision does change everything. The only way i think we can really grasp this fluid and infininte potential is to use labels as necessary to the task but to not value them (be detached) and be prepared to discard them as necessary
Anyway, Love and Blessings
” I see sex as sacred and spiritual. Being generally disassociated from my body, sometimes sex heightens this sensation, and sometimes it is grounding and physical in a very moving way. I get the feeling i could have been a celibate nun or a temple priestess whore. But i dont get this dominant/submissive thing at all…it kind of actually scares me or otherwise just sounds plain funny and ridiculous or annoying. ”
Perfect put. Thanks 🙂 I get the dominant/submissive thing well, but the dirty whore stuff has always been funny, ridiculous and if it goes on long enough, very annoying!
If after reading this you feel your a tad bit squishier than Blake’s description…then your an infp and your cat blog needs tending to…get out. Jk peace and hugs! But really this is spot on down to the last detail.
Maybe not squishier, but somehow slightly more centered is how I would describe myself. All those descriptions are relatable in someway and momentarily true, but I can stand outside of myself to a degree and see that not all of life can be found in any love relationship even when it FEELS all consuming and I gravitate towards all or nothing thinking and behaviors when in its grips – I rarely have let these dictate how I act and am. Even when it has taken all I have to act in ways counter to these inclinations, I do because I know that all answers are not found here. They are just temporary truths that will dissipate like mirages. I have learned not to try to chase or hold onto these fleeting moments. Wait, once upon a time I was quite off balance in love. Maybe, maybe, it is true and I forgot. Would not want to live in that place again and am convinced I won’t. I learned to do love better. Maybe it is just getting old and tired. Whatever, love like that is not a service to ourselves, our partners, or the world. I can’t speak to polyamory. I can see that, but it sounds exhausting over time. Maybe not.
Blake if this is the INFJ love nature, I may be mistyped. While I am certainly no saint and have had some extremely unhealthy relationships in the past , I am not drawn to most of what you described (control, devour, disrespecting those who would try to please me). Some of the ways you describe INFJ in love sounds like someone with Borderline Personality Disorder. Most INFJs don’t strike me as having BPD, but if they do –their natural attraction would be someone with NPD. Not healthy but that is a dynamic you will often see in the most severely dysfunctional relationships. We all have all the aspects of every human experience inside of us I believe if we will only acknowledge it, so yeah – on some level I can relate to this. As a whole this is not a place from which I operate. At least I sincerely hope not. BPD is neither fun nor pretty for anyone. I disagree that we cannot change our deep down shame beliefs. Most people carry some deep down defective belief and this is not just an INFJ thing. I know these can be acknowledged, addressed, and changed to something more balanced and hopeful. To tackle those internal destructive shame based beliefs will be less damaging to ourselves and to those who love us. If not, you are probably right that there will be too much focus on the love interest and what he/she is doing or not doing, looking to save and be saved in love, and becoming disenchanted corpses is a likely outcome.
The following images came to my mind while reading the article: the Lovers in a Tarot deck, a random image of a whale eating a playful pleasing dolphin, and then after I read it another Tarot card (Strength) came to mind.I am not very studied in Tarot but I like the archetypal images. Still, I rarely think about them. I may have to check these out to figure it out. 🙂
Thank you for all your articles and the thought provoking content. Even when I don’t agree with or relate to everything (that would be impossible, right?) , I always appreciate them and admire your original insights and your unique style. Keep up the good work.
I don’t think you are mistyped. You strike me as one of the more ENTPish INFJs. That is about as far away from INFJ id you can get while still remaining INFJ.
This article is mostly focusing on one particular (and highly important) facet of the INFJ temperament. It is writ a bit large for clear viewing purposes. In other words, it is showing INFJ at its most floor flushing extreme. And “floor flushing” almost literally sums this propensity up.
So, there are INFJs more in the heights and INFJs more in the depths. And there are even INFJs somewhere in the middle. Nonetheless, I think this id dynamic can be detected in many INFJ woman.
For example, if the INFJ in question were a Gemini Sun, then, that would mitigate some of the id tendencies and bring out more of the high-side INFJ, which in its highest manifestation approaches the ENTP type.
INFJ basically spans the continuum from ISFP in its depths to ENTP in its heights. ENTP is the farthest you can get from ISFP, so if you are approaching one end of this extreme, the other end will look somewhat ridiculous, even within the same type.
And INFJs in general have some mighty wide extremes. Probaly the widest extremes of any type.
Blake,
Thank you for the analysis. An ENTPish INFJ, huh? How delightful. I like myself a little better no. Maybe that is because all ENTPs think they are the cat’s meow, so I can’t help but think, “Damn, I’m good!” Joking. Still, I do take that as a compliment. My ENTP husband must have rubbed off on me. I do carry his voice in my head telling me to lighten up and just go with the flow. I have gotten better and so has he due to my influence, if I do say so myself. Funny you should mention the ISFPish INFJ. I probably used to be one. I was married before to an ISFP with issues. Sweet and without a center. Relationships do shape us, so we need to be careful who we choose. I chose my ENTP slowly and mindfully without any influence from the MBTI. It was off my radar at that time. I knew he would be important in my life in the first 5 minutes, but did not imagine romance or marriage. I just knew he would be someone in my life and a friend for a long time. I do have a literal Scorpio Moon. Maybe tempered by a Virgo Sun. Dunno.
Upon reflection, I did come to realize more of what you said was more true than I initially suspected. Not so much anymore. Really not at all, but I had that stuff in me to a larger extent than now. I would never have allowed anyone to treat me like dirt in a romantic/sexual relationship, however. But beyond that, I loved (if you can call it that) to some extremes. Not always expressed, although sometimes it was but it was definitely there. The pendulum had to swing wide to find the edges, but moving more towards center is never a bad plan. Even when you don’t plan it, life does seem to allow this to eventually happen if you are willing to rest, reflect, and grow.
Tell us again how you love INFJs? What exactly as a man would there be in the mess you describe as an INFJ woman’s love nature is there for you to love. This description makes us all sound worse than the Clap! Haha. Yep, I DO have some ENTP in my head. I never realized I let that part come through. How weird. How true. Anyway, thanks again.
I just realized you infused the subject I mentioned you might write about into your comment to me. You know, INFJs and their look alikes? Remember me asking for that? Maybe not consciously, but you just did it. Is that unconscious Fe? I don’t know what you might call it, but I do that with people all the time. I just forgot all the details that went before and people are amazed at my memory. My memory sucks, but it seems to continue working behind the scenes anyway and finds a way of following up as if on purpose. Is this what just happened with you?
I am rambling and sleep deprived, I appreciate you. Noddy blinkers.
Maybe a enneatype 3 ENFJ? If there is one thing I do see from you loud and clear it is Fe. With some form of intuition.
Possible types:
INFJ
ENFJ (enneatype 3)
ENFP (because of voluble Fe id)
ENTP (tertiary Fe)
Now, it is interesting because you just told me you have an actual Scorpio Moon, which is the implied Moon position of INFJ Fi id and pretty much responsible for most of the dynamic I’m describing herein. If you are telling me you can barely relate to what is here as an INFJ type, and not just any INFJ, but one who would have this Fi id dynamic totally reinforced by being born with an actual Scorpio Moon, I would find it hard to believe that you are an INFJ. But, on the other hand, it is likely that if you were another type and you had a Scorpio Moon that you would have some of the traits of an INFJ just by being born with this Moon position.
So, me thinks maybe you are an ENFJ (only a type 3 one though) or an ENFP, or less likely, an actual ENTP instead of an ENTPish INFJ like I mentioned above.
You have mentioned a sort of soft bipolarity before and how you can go for many hours without sleep and then crash. Dominant or id Fe would bring this out more. Enneatype 3 ENFJs and ENFPs seem to be the most bipolar types, though, some INFJs definitely are too, but it is more of hard bipolarity, even if it is only manifested in a hypomanic form.
ENFJs have the opposite id and high-side type to INFJ. ENFJs start at Ne (ENTP) id and move to the heights at Fi (ISFP).
ENFPs have Fe id (ESFJ) and move to high-side at Ni (INTJ).
I could definitely see some of the cuddliness, bubbliness, and charm of the type 3 ENFP/ENFJ, which, at any rate, is coming from some strong form of Fe.
Virgo Sun would not really temper the Scorpio Moon, the latter of which is a strong and unmistakable position in anyone’s birth chart. Gemini would probaly be the sign that would most temper Scorpio indications.
Since we’re on the subject, what is your rising sign?
Anyone some things to consider. And, as usual, I love hearing from you.
Blake, the type possibilities you mention are the types I love best and admire both, but I KNOW I am not and ENFP, ENTP, or ENFJ. I would often prefer to be anyone of them and do tend to gravitate towards these types, but I most definitely am not. Although I can for moments look like all of them. It isn’t the way I can consistently operate, but I do take their energies on for moments especially when I have spent considerable time with these folks. I have come up with Enneagram 4 and a few times 5.
If you notice some of my subsequent comments amonsgst the many postings, I did recant and had to admit upon consideration and reflection that in the past (which is hard for me to keep a clear focus on), I did exhibit and contain many of the aspects you mention. Once I move on and I have, it is like it did not exist except if I am forced to pause and reflect. Your writing forced it and I reflected and sat on it for a moment and recognized my distant self. Not in all ways, not all the time, and not always expressed –but yeah there is truth there. I have changed, grown, and gotten old and somewhat more balanced. Calling up Fe is definitely useful, just as you so often say.
I am somewhat distressed that I am exposing myself in public. I am more like you in real life in that I hide and focus on the behavior of others and don’t self disclose a bunch unless it is helpful to others. I went way outside of my comfort zone, but that is where expansion happens I suppose.
🙂
I have a love bite on my neck. Wanna see it? 😉 :p But it doesn’t mean a thing. I wore it with pride (even though I got chastised by my boss for it, he said it is vulgar to come to work like that) – because I can now go on with my life without anyone thinking I am some kind of weirdo that doesn’t get laid (even though this is the case).
But this is the sad story – that even if I got laid, by this guy at least, it still wouldn’t mean shit. He is so cute with his little teeth and we were in his car and he was kissing my neck and biting me and after a while I started laughing and said “this is so ephemeral.” What the hell is wrong with me? :)))
Why does a song give me the chills but all this physical attention lets me cold? I thought this was what I wanted… I guess it’s not. What the hell do I want? He is only a kid. I said to him: “I can be whatever you want me to be. What do you want from me? What is it that you want? Say the word.” He said nothing. He is avoiding me ever since.
I want to devour a soul. I want to feel alive. If love/romanticism/sex can’t give me this, what in the world can?!?
Is C.S.Lewis right? “If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. Probably earthly pleasures were never meant to satisfy it, but only to arouse it, to suggest the real thing. If that is so, I must take care, on the one hand, never to despise, or to be unthankful for, these earthly blessings, and on the other, never to mistake them for the something else of which they are only a kind of copy, or echo, or mirage. I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find till after death; I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside; I must make it the main object of life to press on to that country and to help others to do the same.” That is to say, towards the upper-mentioned Jesus.
Anyway, back in my lonesome days, I used to feel like a naga queen. I thought l was made for love and love for me. It turns out I am frigid. And even more fucked up in the brain that I thought I was.
Wishing you the best!
p.s. I don’t understand a thing about the id, Fi, etc… do you have articles that explain thoroughly this system? 🙁
bye bye
I do not have articles that thoroughly explain this system. So far it has all been in the nature of an insinuation. But, I will in the future.
Also, thanks for your beautiful and insightful share. I appreciate your commentary.
Blake,
First off, love the Yeats quote. Yay for Yeats. Second, I sent some monies your way because I value your efforts in monetary and nonmonetary ways. So much to unpack here, so I’ll try to set forth my most salient points.
Sex is a hugely expressive outlet for the INFJ, so for Fe reasons alone, the INFJ craves it. And, as I read somewhere recently, the joining of bodies is much, much easier than the meeting of minds, so an INFJ can be fooled by a sublime sexual connection with someone with whom they otherwise fail to connect. This was the case with myself and my ENFJ ex.
What I’ve found with dominant, competent, alpha men who are also smart, sensitive, and humble is that, eventually, my intensities exhaust and/or frighten them, and in the worst cases, my otherworldly intelligence threatens their ego. (As Thomas Wentworth Higginson remarked of Emily Dickinson, “I was never with any one who drained my nerve power so much. Without touching her, she drew from me. I am glad not to live near her.”) At first they see that I am kind loving sweet smart charming, but then they learn that I am also terrifying deep dark wickedly smart intense. Worthless and tiring power struggles ensue. Relationship comes to an unsatisfying halt. Not worth the energy.
What is worth the energy is the sex, so lately I have fantasized a situation in which I have a sexual partner, period. None of the other relationship drama. A man who can be sexually monogamous (don’t care to swap diseases with all the careless millenials out there) for the run of it. We have our fun a few times a week or whatever, but then I get to go off and be a self-satisfied individual, free from the conventions and expectations of girlfriendhood. This is just the situation I crave right now. I do eventually want a mainstay, a life partner. Hell knows if I’ll find either scenario. Indeed fun to entertain possibilities, though.
I do not agree with your point on low self esteem, feelings of worthlessness being a perpetual, buried condition for the INFJ, lurking beneath all other functions. I believe the actualized INFJ channels these inclinations (which I think are human inclinations, not unique to any given personality type) to the surface and thereby puts them to work, i.e. employs/sublimates them into art, instruction and guidance to others suffering the same ills, etc. I know deep inside that if I am worthless, then everyone else is, too. There is no “club” out there representing complete exemption from the deep human suspicion of insecurity, member of which the INFJ cannot become. To the contrary, I believe INFJ desperately seeks community, connection, and understanding, and is overjoyed to be a part. And proud of what we can bring to the party. Due to our chameleon natures, we too deftly slip into any crowd and become a cherished part, so feeling welcome in a club is not our trouble. Our trouble is finding the freaks with whom we can let it all hang out and still be understood, not feared.
Otherwise I feel you nailed it and brought new insights to my own analyses. Thank you and please keep on.
DKP
Fuck yeah about the self-esteem issues. As Daria Morgendorfer said…”Don’t worry, I don’t have low self-esteem…I have low esteem for everyone else.” Seriously, we have excruciatingly high standards.
Also I know that a self-aware INFJ can – has to – learn to temper their intensity and let it radiate out at the right time. And learn to time and temper the negative feedback we give as well. Timing is, as they say, everything. Well, almost everything. Delivery is something, too. This is work. It’s a lot of work.
@ DKP
Thanks for sharing. I appreciate your contribution both monetarily and commentarily.
DKP:
I very much appreciate your comment. Sex is not dirty, giving in to your sexual drive is not dirty – it’s other peoples garbage that can make it feel dirty. I’ve been guilty of using sex to forge a bond as most people will at some level entangle their minds and hearts with those they tangle limbs – that’s the limit of my guilt around sex. There is no lurking worthless child, the opposite is true – the feminine tapping into the power sex gives us at the outset and which flows to the other in the act, both male and female in different ways, is utterly enjoyable. It is complex, desiring, wonderful. It fulfills our animal purpose of procreation and I often think in the search to understand ourselves we ignore or brush aside the fact that all our impulses arise from the animal seeking to fill its purpose and reproduce. The id is not dark and evil. It’s just animal. If your animal is healthy so are the expression of functions that arise from it, underdeveloped or not.
We wrap ourselves in so many layers of expectation and self delusion in modern society I believe the majority of us have lost touch with the ability to understand our animal natures and truly satisfy them / keep them healthy – and I don’t mean in a shallow, momentary way but in the true purpose that our lives are on track to ensure our animal needs are met. We live with constant levels of stress that our animal natures are not designed and unsuited to coping with – and we can’t change the stress inputs as they are part of the way we all live today. The result is constant dysfunction.
So the biggest problem I have with the article above is the describing of the feminine INFJ nature to be dirty, slutty, degraded. It is not, no more than any other female type. Fi may possess us more at times but that still doesn’t make it conflicted or dirty. It is just a sad repetition of the feminine Eve as fallen and evil, destroying everything around her. We’ve suffered from that judgement for centuries. From the hatred of those who don’t experience it and can’t understand it. Pretty please don’t perpetuate it 🙁
I’d wondered if the other planetary placements corresponded to certain function configurations. If the Sun is the auxiliary, the moon the id, and the rising the dominant, then could Mars be the tertiery, and Venus, the ignoring (the inverse of the dominant, ex. The ignoring function of INFJs is Ne)? Perhaps in women this would be reversed. This would mean that an INFJ man would have an implied Mars in Aquarius and an implied Venus in Aries. Clearly, though, this is not your theory, as you see INFJs having an implied Venus in Cancer. This would mean that the other planets don’t have a correspondence to a specific function position, like the Sun and moon. How did you come to the conclusion that INFJs have an implied Venus in Cancer? Here’s some of my ideas:
Mars: tertiary (in men), ignoring (in women)
Venus: ignoring (in men), tertiery (in men)
Jupiter: …
Would the outer planets’ sign correspond to a function? As they have little significance outside of house position… I was stuck on Pluto as the inferior position, the anima…
Speaking of house positions, How would you explain that? You say INFJs have an implied Fi in the 12th house. Meaning early in the house? Is there no planet there? What are the implied house positions of our implied Pisces Sun and Scorpio Moon? Some bread crumbs is all I’m asking for…
“How did you come to the conclusion that INFJs have an implied Venus in Cancer?”
This actually came to me while I was writing this article. It is in the nature of some intuitive hit or realization about the other side of the Fe dynamic for INFJ, part of which is solar (auxiliary), but, definitely part of which is in the nature of Venus or a trinal influence (a trine is an astrological name for the most favorable aspect that can occur between two planets). I have had the idea of the Venusian and/or trinal nature of the auxiliary function for some time now (and solar as well), but, for some reason I had never really seen how it could amount to an implied Venus position (until I was describing the dynamics in this article).
The thing that was in my head was that I know Venus in Cancer has something to do with love triangles. I also know that the combination of Venus in the sign of Cancer conjures up the teenage infatuation phase of love, which reaches its apex as an image in the mass idolation that the members of the Beatles received during the Beatlemania days -teenage girls screaming and passing out just from the sight of the Beatles. The keyword for this Venus position for me would be “swoon”. That word perfectly captures the sort of love feeling we are talking about here.
Also, the association of Venus in Cancer with all those early Beatles songs, that feeling you get of light-headedness and giddiness when he asks you to dance with him, or hold his hand, or some other innocent and teenage-love thing (at least in the olden days). You know, that pop bliss type thing that the Beatles early pop songs perfectly captured.
So, I see this as the other side of the Fe solution to the problems arising from the Fi id of INFJ. That is all I want to say about it here. I’ll likely have more thoughts on this in my next article. It seems like there is a specific solution to the Fi id sexual-romantic exclusive relationship thing in this implied Venus in Cancer position. I hint at some of the possibilities of that in this article.
The whole man/woman opposite thing you are talking about works out for me like this: For example, yes, INFJ would have an implied Fe Pisces Sun and an implied Scorpio Moon. What do we know from astrological tradition about the Sun and Moon placements? This – Men tend to embody the Sun more and women tend embody the Moon more. Though, we can’t hold strictly to this in a black-and-white way, there is a general truth to this. That is why I wrote about the Fi id of INFJ with woman of this type in mind. Since the id correlates to the Moon, in large part, and the INFJ would have an implied Moon in Scorpio, it only makes sense that I would be talking more about INFJ women as being more the embodiments of this dynamic rather than the men. This is true in general, however, INFJ men have their own experience of this Fi id that I decided should be written about separately.
Women will enact the implied Moon. Men will experience it more as the feminine in them, whether they are in touch with this feminine side of themselves or it comes more as an outside experience from key women in their life.
For example, I mentioned in this article, that I think INFJ women like to be eaten and devoured in some way, while an INFJ man is likely to want to be the one doing the eating and devouring. However, there is a bit of this dynamic going both ways with the common denominator being “to eat or be eaten”. Fi is the vaginal function par excellence. It is the function of the female. So, women have vaginas. Men don’t. Do the math.
As for the rest, no, the tertiary is not Mars. The tertiary is Mercury (normative) and Jupiter (exceptional). The tertiary function has a lot to do with the way one thinks. Or, in the Jupiterian sense, where one is either perfectly expressing something, or, in the negative, when the Jupiterian urge to joyously expand goes too far, and becomes overindulgence and gluttony.
OK, that’s all for now my curious Ti tertiareal fellow 🙂
I’m an INFJ man, type 4 enneagram, Taurus Sun, Libra Ascendant, Gemini Moon and Aries Venus — I do not know what these astrological positions mean at all, but you are the diver of human nature here trying to figure shit out, so I’ll just say what I’ve got to say truthfully, and you can do the connections or just dismiss the whole thing ’cause it’s just my personal experience on love, sex and spirit.
By Love I understand the freedom from the play of opposites. There is the Yin and Yang, Shiva and Shakti, or whatever translation of the cosmogonical pair of opposital principles, and Love is the “tertium non datur” (the “impossible third”, as Jung pointed out), the Absolute, the overcome of both transcendence and immanence. Since I subscribe to a non-dual philosophy (which means I believe the opposites, like body and spirit, or energy/matter and consciousness, are manifestations of the same Love, and therefore not wrong or prohibited in any way), there’s no way I could ever accept a monogamical type of relationship. Monoamory, to me, means an ego-based kind of attraction, and I’m not interested to be restricted to that kind of relationship ’cause the whole existential phenomenon is way deeper than ego-based cognitive clicks. Therefore, although I have to be constantly dealing with others’ egos, projections and expectations (after all, we do live in a global patriarchal society, which means that the ego is the psychological structure that prevailed socially, and it is paradigm that rule all the aspects of human existence nowadays), I do not intend to be kept away from developing Love-based, spiritual, detached relationships with people that share my worldview.
Sex is a very misunderstood aspect of human condition in our contemporary society, and there are tons of worldviews trying to figure it out, none of which are willing to accept sex as a spiritual exercise or, more specifically, a ritual (just like eating, or sleeping) performed to reenact the original love-dance of cosmogonical pair (masculine and feminine, Shiva and Shakti, Father Heaven and Mother Earth, etc.) to attain the One. I believe sex is the sensation way to perceive the Divine; meditation is the intuitive way. Both are valid and complementary in some way (sex seeks to reach the self through the other, and meditation seeks to reach the other through the self), and although feeling and thinking can also reach some kind of understanding about the Absolute (like in the Christian passionate devotion towards God, or Jungian deep psychology theorizing about the Self), the instant and clear apreehension about the nature of existence will be permanently restricted to the perceiving cognitive functions.
Now, leaving the metaphysical bullshit aside, I practice ritual sex with random girls who belong to my philosophy (it’s 16 people, and at the beginning each man picks up a personal object from a basket that belongs to the woman he is going to engage sexually); some of them are married, some will never be, I myself do not know what the future holds (probably both householding and wilderness) and that’s fine. I’m not searching anyone nor anything anymore. I’m currently trying to just flow.
This is the most beautiful, deep and poetic sexual love that I ever crossed in my life, but I can relate to the darkness presented by the article, especially when I was younger. Sex was always a bit confusing for me exactly because society never teached it to me, and my sexual education was based on porn, hookers, monogamical expectatives from girls, and a bit of violence (well, visual overstimulation with taboo content, money and monogamy are always violent). I never wanted to keep playing roles (dominant or submissive), or fulfilling fantasies, or the need to develop an ego-based attraction in order to have sex with someone. I wanted pure connection. I wanted not to reject or be rejected just because we didn’t liked the same things. or talked easily. I wanted real, intimate, meditative, energetic, free, respectful and sensual love. Not the indulgent pleasure, fantasy-play, leading to the muscle tension of ejaculatory contraction.
In order to face sex, I had to face Fe and Se, mostly. Definetely not easy (still digging), and most of the time not pleasant. But necessary, and rewarding on the long run. To get out of my head. To face the things I didn’t naturally understand (on an instinctual and spontaneous way). To dive deep into life in it’s most violently shallow aspect. To feel, flow, cry and laugh at the same time, to be free to just be (sometimes in a very weird way). It’s the journey, not the final destination.
Ayyy lmao reading this article felt like me transitioning from king kong beating his chest up screaming to the chest swelling up to a point where I ended up relating with a lot of what was written. Ugh.
Anyhoo about that George Carlin bit from back god knows when. I’m a bit skeptical. Its just that that old brilliant bastard had so much to say about individuality and finding himself and his love of getting to know individuals “one on one” and yadayadayada. What in your opinion would be the implications for an INFJ to also have ADHD/ADD?
Okay, there done. Two days it took me to finish this article. Am nauseous just thinking of what I allowed happen.
…The INFJ women will appear submissive and deferential. They will dominate on an emotional level undetectably…
…Another dynamic here is that I think many INFJ women are a bit surprised about this power that they have. It is always something a bit alien to them perhaps. On a conscious level they aren’t likely to be aware of it…
Am very aware now…thank you very much! And I repent of my past sin. Hopefully I find forgiveness. And never passively suck the life out of someone again…obliviously/but at the same time right before my very eyes.
Virgo sun, Scorpio moon, Pisces rising here. 12th house in Aquarius empty.
I think some detached humanitarian like Aquarius will work for me, hence I didn’t find yet.
Umm, I have no idea what you are talking about. Why would an Aquarius partner work for you because you have an empty Aquarian 12th house? Not seeing your logic either in reference to the logic of this article, nor in a strictly astrological sense.
So, if you want to clarify what you mean, go ahead, but, try to make it pertain to the nature of what I’m talking about in this INFJ Woman in Love article. I mention the implied 12th house Fi of INFJs corresponding to Pisces in the subjective mode. But, why would you want to seek a partner that is formed out of either implied or actual 12th house elements, especially if the actual 12th house of your chart has no planets in it? 12th house type relationships are one of the least recommended type relationships I can think of. Certainly not something to shoot for if you had a choice in the matter.
Which, often, with the 12th house, you don’t. Karma, fate, bondage. Ugh.
Hey Blake,
Quite an sizeable audience you have managed to amass for your blog. I was wondering how did you get the first few followers before hitting critical mass? Especially since your blog is very niche in addressing the MBTI cognitive functions with a dash of astrology.
Umm, I just started writing about stuff that I know in this regard and people started coming. That’s more or less it.
If you’re wondering for your own sake, I think it’s because he’s hit a sweet spot of providing very specialized and hard-to-find information to a particular type of people who are really eager and thirsting for exactly this type of information, i.e. INFJs. Or really anyone who’s super interested in MBTI stuff, but – I’m guessing – particularly INFJs.
I agree with stuff he’s said around here before that it’s really hard to find advice and analysis on and for INFJs that doesn’t involve shoving us into some ethereal fairy glow. I’d been typed before by someone else as an INFJ but didn’t believe it until I stumbled on this blog, haha.
Blake, ever consider making space on your site for dating/romantic connections? Lots of rare types looking for love.
All who agree, say yea!
Yes, I have thought about it. But, its not a fully formed conception as of yet. I could see that happening over time though. All I can tell you is stick around and see what happens.
I am INFJ and a Capricorn. I am actually about half and half I and E. I have to be very careful that the person I am dating is at least half E. Otherwise I get burnt out and resentful of the lack of reciprocity. People also have to be realistic in that no one can get every thing they need from one person.
As far as devouring someone and/or saving them…of course those are extremes. Most INFJ’s I know, the matures one anyway, are not like that.
Agreed! Wholeheartedly with you. From someone who has a Capricorn Ascendant and who loves her Capricorn ENTP!
I read about Greek gods as archetypes in human soul few months ago and this article reminds me of Persephone-Hades relationship so much, it almost hurts. Persephone seems pretty INFJ-like and with Hades I am just not sure whether he is respectable cold rational or another INFJ. Or it is other way and he is INFJ and Persephone is different type, maybe INFP. Either way, it has this flavour. Or maybe I am misunderstanding something. Anyway, this is great.
Yes, there is something to the abduction of Persephone myth for INFJ. Definitely.
Hey, I’m an female INFJ and I’ve loved the myth about Hades and Persephone since childhood. Now I’m a young adult and I still think about it from time to time and I even let myself dream about being Perspohone. Although it may sound wierd, I deeply enjoy imaging myself being kindnapped and becoming the queen of the Underground. I’ve always believed that Persephone was, in some sense, happy with her situation. Now as I think about this myth, it is really INFJ-ish.
Blake, I think this is the first article of yours I’ve read that I’ve not entirely agreed with. I do think that it’s mostly true (now that I’ve read it a few times and gotten over the initial shock), but I think my initial reaction reveals something that might be worth expressing.
Also, bear in mind that I write this in the spirit of my virgo sun 😉 I think this article is deeply insightful, but I feel like there’s something missing…
INFJs’ emotional nature is obviously pretty complex. It is weak and id-like because it’s susceptible to external influences. But without that receptivity, we wouldn’t be able to create art or respond to the problems of the world, etc. Also, like everything, I think there is both a light and a dark side to the infj’s emotional nature. I agree with you that infjs can be manipulative and dominating in a subtle way. But that’s the shadow side of our ability to connect. Can’t really have light without dark…There’s something of the nature of power and energy here. It’s like how love, when rejected, turns into hatred. Fallen angels become devils. I think infjs, like everyone, are challenged with the need to decide how to use our powers, in our case those of intuition and empathy. We can use them for our own selfish ends, or for some greater good. Maybe this is the 12th house pisces stuff you’re talking about.
I think the power dynamics you describe are bound up with ego (in the conventional sense of the word), and are therefore something that you see with immature infjs who haven’t yet learned to get their ego under control. The thing about infjs losing interest in someone once they know that person adores them. I think this is a general tendency of egocentric people, whatever their type. INFJs are probably no different. Emotional maturity leads to an appreciation of vulnerability.
What you say about infjs wanting someone who can understand them but also stand up to them is very true I think. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with looking for this. It’s pretty healthy. The problem is that very few people have both these qualities, so I imagine that a lot of infjs flit between lovers who are either sensitive but too weak, and those that are strong but not particularly nice. None of this means that they actually want to be dominated. I actually don’t think infjs can be. And I think you maybe misunderstand the type there. If an infj is attracted to someone who’s quite dominant, it might be because they see their own inner strength reflected in his outer strength. The man acts as a mirror. Being with someone who is strong and who can put us in our place is sort of thrilling. Not because we want to be dominated, but because it’s fun to have someone try. It’s like going on a rollercoaster ride. It’s a little scarey, but not too scarey because you know that at the end of the day you’re totally safe.
Also, if there’s any truth to infjs wanting to be dominated, it’s probably in a metaphorical sense. They want someone to see beneath their surface, and that often takes a certain amount of force, because they have hard shells. None of this means they’re actually submissive underneath. Any submission is just on the surface.
You seem to be suggesting that the fi id is the core of the infj. Have I misunderstood that? If not, I think this is where I disagree with you. It’s pretty powerful, but it’s not who we are deep down, at least not with me or any infj I know. Deep down is something more akin to spirit. And that spirit is indomitable. People often mistake infjs for being weak because they are so sensitive. I know it’s hard to see beneath that sensitivity unless you spend a lot of time with an infj, but all of the infjs I know have a core of steel. That’s maybe why some are attracted to extreme situations or relationships. Because they want to test that core. Flesh it out.
I think the views you’ve expressed here are scarily insightful, and probably more so than I can admit. But they seem a bit one-sided. Also the stuff about wanting to be violated and made to serve someone because we believe we’re shit and worthless. Seriously?? I thought you knew how selfish and narcissistic we are 🙂 Don’t mistake the appearance of deference for the reality.
It may be that I and my friends are not typical infjs, or maybe we’re in denial. And I’m sorry if I sound a bit preachy in stating what I feel is true of infjs. It’s just my opinion based on limited experience I suppose, but I truly see the core of the infj as spirit, and a very strong one at that. It’s like the metallic core of our inner worlds around which the oceans of our feelings flow. When we’re rooted in that core, our feelings are powerfully creative because they’re fed by the minerals of our spiritual bedrock. But if we lose touch with that core, as often happens in relationships, we can drown. I might be over-extending the metaphor here, but I feel it’s a useful one for understanding how our feelings may be deep and sometimes dark and treacherous, but they are not necessarily the absolute core of who we are.
Wow, Katie! Wow! That was so eloquently beautiful and spot-on. You just described being an INFJ to the core. And better than anyone ever has IMHO. I couldn’t have described the essence of being an INFJ any better myself (and I loved the metaphors btw). Blake, you ought to listen to this lady because she is just explained that which is so difficult for most of us to put into words.
Thank you. 🙂
“Wow, Katie! Wow! That was so eloquently beautiful and spot-on. You just described being an INFJ to the core.”
No she hasn’t. What she has more done is describe the INFP type with their equivalent dynamic of Ni id (INTJ type normative).
Look, I’m sorry if I’m bursting anyone’s bubbles, but, I personally am getting sick of this whole INFJ/INFP confusion. There are a lot of people that are typed as INFJs that are INFPs. This is part of the reason that the INFJ descriptions that abound on the internet have started to drift with time.
So, despite all the beautiful metaphors and use of language in general that Katie has employed, it has emphatically not described the INFJ type in the way that I understand it.
It was actually in this article that I most tried to make it clear the difference between Fi in the INFJ type vs. the INFP type. This article is talking about Fi id, which is fairly different from Fi dominance. Fi dominance is more the function in it’s completely neutral expression.
And by the way, I don’t give a fuck about beautiful metaphors and poetic language if it is basically obscuring the issue, which in this case it is. And has in the past descriptions of these two types.
Now, I know this article is controversial and is likely to hit some people pretty hard. But, there is method to this floor-flushing madness. In this article I have basically painted Fi as it manifests as an id function, not as a dominant.
Now there is all this confusion about such words as “core” as in the basic core function of a type. Both the dominant and the id could be called “core” functions, but, in two different senses. God, I am beginning to hate the shortcomings of language. Which is why I tried to write this article in the least flowery way possible because I don’t care if something is beautifully described yet subtly distorts the meaning of these functions and positions.
Anyway, the id is like a well of sorts. Picture it as this hole in the earth that extends down and down and down. The dominant is at ground-level and permeates the entire surface of that plane. It is just all that is in the normative sense of inhabiting that plane. It is neither sky nor below. A well is a particular hole in the earth. It is intensive and below the normal experience of one’s environment and waking consciousness. Similar to when Alice goes to Wonderland (in her case) by falling through a hole in her normative waking existence. Falling down a hole of some sort into another reality is how the id is.
That reality will be familiar in some way but more primal, more the underlying contents of what is beneath but often dimly sensed from the normal waking reality.
Fi is like this for INFJs. Ni is like this for INFPs. Actually, Alice in Wonderland may be a good portrayal of the INFP id function, the way they may experience Ni.
For INFJ, Fi is this falling into the hole. It has a very different feeling to it then falling into a Wonderland type environment of fantastic and absurd fairytale scenes.
It is pretty much the equivalent of falling into hell. It is not light, but dark. It is not fantastic and fairytale-like, but ultra-real.
Katie says, “You seem to be suggesting that the fi id is the core of the infj. Have I misunderstood that? If not, I think this is where I disagree with you. It’s pretty powerful, but it’s not who we are deep down, at least not with me or any infj I know. Deep down is something more akin to spirit. And that spirit is indomitable. People often mistake infjs for being weak because they are so sensitive. I know it’s hard to see beneath that sensitivity unless you spend a lot of time with an infj, but all of the infjs I know have a core of steel.”
I would class the id function as the most powerful function of all in any type, primarily because it is what we are deep down. I would also class the id function as primarily negative in orientation because its development lies in the nature of a past level of development similar to the developmental stages of a child. The id is at the infantile level of development, which makes it very strong but very undifferentiated and primal. Like when a newborn child screams bloody murder when it ain’t getting it’s mother’s milk. That is pretty much the level of awareness and social taming that this function lies at. It is of course a necessary phase in development but it is often seen as unacceptable to act out of this function when one develops further.
So, the dominant function ain’t at all like that. Similar to how Freud describes the ego differentiating off of the id is how I see Ni as forming off of this base (core?) Fi eventually to bring into existence some form of ego-containment, and by extension, reigning in of the id impulses.
Katie describes INFJs as having a steely core. The problem is these subjective and open-to-interpretation words such as “core” or “steely”. I would say an INFP would be more likely to have a steely core, if we are using “core” in the sense of an id function. Like, if you penetrate deep down into an INFP, you are more likely to see a relatively undifferentiated INTJ type. Depends what you mean by “steely” though. I associate “steeliness” “unbending will” “firm principles” with Te, not Fi. Fi is the opposite and reactionary to those things. It is will in the completely negative sense, like the will to self-destruction, will to die, will to be snuffed out. INFPs don’t have this sort of extremity. Which is why many INFPs should not relate to the extremity of Fi that I paint in this article. An INFP should not relate to these floor-flushing extremes of guilt, misery, bondage, self-hatred, absolute and unmitigated slavery etc.
Why?
Because normative Fi is not like this at all. It does not have that flavor of utter extremism and self-annhilation, which is often inflamed by Ni-Se existential crisis in the INFJ.
Yet, there are similarities between INFP and INFJ. But, INFPs are never as intense and reaching the levels of emotional depth in this scorpionic fashion I’m describing. A scorpion is a creature that will sting itself to death out of pride if it senses that it is about to be killed by something else. Sometimes a scorpion will sting itself and other’s for no apparent reason at all. This is Fi id – very irrational, very anti-Ti. For no reason on earth, it will go down. Dumbly, mutely, out of excitation of some ancient passion.
I advise every INFJ to read Dostoevsky’s Notes From The Underground. This is the only book I know that really, really nails this Fi id of INFJ. Notice the way this little book was written – very directly, unadorned, with no bones-about-it. That is INFJ primary expression. Is not flowery, unadorned, pretty. If it is this way, it is an overlay of expression that is basically encasing a primitive world of pain.
Listen to The Doors “Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain” line from their song The End. That is Fi id.
Catcher in The Rye. A very unadorned and unpretentious book about how the main protagonist sees everything in the whole fucking fucked world as unbearably phony and false. Simple, direct prose.
Bob Dylan’s All Along The Watchtower (I could give a thousand examples from him alone) “There must be some way out of here” “Let us not talk falsely, the hour is getting late”
INFJs detest flowery metaphors and pretty prose if it doesn’t mean anything.
There is an urgency of drowning in a shitty, sullied world of sham and heartbreak. See the whole work of Hamlet. Just a complete desire to die because one can see (Ni dominance) the baseness and lack of depth of human nature. In a particular sense. Not an extensified abstracted sense like INFPs often come across.
So, if you are reading this article and really can’t resonate with it, then, you might not be an INFJ.
If you read or listen to any of the aformentioned works and can’t resonate with them, you might not be an INFJ. Because I am absolutely certain all those works are of the INFJ spirit and done by INFJ artists. If they aren’t, then I don’t know what INFJ is.
I would think unless an INFJ is inexperienced (and not immature like Katie maintains) or is unaware of their deep impulses (which is possible for young INFJs) that they would get this description and see themselves in it to some extent. To some extent.
I would be suspectful if they didn’t, which is not to say that they aren’t an INFJ necessarily, but it would tip the scale further away from that possibility for me.
This is my version of INFJ. The ones on the internet you can forget about as far as I’m concerned. All that shit is hopelessly muddied and mixed-up, and diluted (and INFPized I think).
So, this is it. INFJs can most be defined from Ni and Fi. At a base/core level. If a type does nothing else but inhabit the earth and breathe, they have no choice but to be defined from their id and their ego (dominant). If they do move and progress and all that good shit, then, yes, it is possible to start identifying the auxiliary at some point. But, the aux. doesn’t have to operate, and moreover, when it fails to operate, often willfully, what you are most going to see is the id, which is like back-end personality rather than front-end (aux).
Bob Dylan, Jim Morrison, Dostoevsky, Shakespeare’s Hamlet, JD Salinger all show this back-end Fi personality very clearly. Emphatically, not INFP use of Fi.
I don’t know if that clarifies, emends, clears things up, pisses you off, but, whatever, it is just the way I see INFJ. I do not agree with either of you in your comments and I just want to make that very clear lest one starts to give in to a certain drift towards some more reasonable center.
No, Fi id looks like this article said more than it looks like what Katie was saying. To me at least. And it is my website.
So, I’ll be listening to myself and staying true to my initial perceptions. Unless they can be changed by compelling arguments and not just well-written, but, rather vague, rebuttals.
And Katie, please don’t hate me, because I care about you and your perceptions and welcome them, but, I’m kind of an asshole when it comes to things of this nature. I just cannot accept something that I perceive as untrue.
@YoMama
Thank you honey 🙂 I’m glad someone understood….
And thanks for your reply too Blake. Of course I don’t hate you. And I’m sorry to obscure the issue. I can see how I was probably doing that a bit. You were talking about the id, not the dominant function (which is what I was describing – ni). For me, ni is like steel in the sense that it’s solid and reliable, unlike fi which is more volatile and irrational (but only partly). My point was that ni is deeper or more core-like than fi in the infjs I know. However, I’m starting to re-think that. Maybe I’m wrong. They sort of sit side by side. Like light and dark angels.
Have you seen the film Black Swan? That expresses the fi id very well I think. The black swan is dark and out of control. But she’s not submissive. Quite the opposite. And I think that’s what I was trying to point out, that the infj’s fi id is actually kind of a megalomaniac. Any feelings of worthlessness are more at a conscious level, because we recognise that we have this darkness and power of destruction within us.
You know, I think we probably agree more than we realise. I also detest flowery prose if it doesn’t mean anything. I’m just sorry you can’t see the meaning in mine. Like you, I can’t accept anything that I believe is untrue. That is why I like your articles (even this one). And it is why I wrote this comment, even though I knew it would annoy you.
As you’re interested in infj writers, I think an example of the type I’m talking about is Etty Hillesum. Her diary, published under the title ‘an interrupted life’, seems like a brilliant example of an infj coming to terms with her fi/ni nature and allowing it to grow into something that uplifts not only herself but the people around her. Her writings have been a huge source of inspiration to me, but interestingly, I’ve never felt like I could emulate her, because I’m far too cynical about human nature. Too scorpionic.
What’s also interesting is that Etty was hugely influenced by Rilke, as am I. Rilke’s poem ‘widening circles’ expresses what I was trying to in my post – the primordial tower at our centre. Maybe we are infps with an intj id….
Oh now I’m confused 🙂
“Have you seen the film Black Swan? That expresses the fi id very well I think.”
No, but I just watched a trailer for it and it looks like Fi id to me. Natalie Portman is likely an INFJ and I believe she is a Scorpio rising, so that combination would bring Fi id into its prominence in her life and I’m sure her performances to a large extent. It would bring out the implied Scorpio Moon into something akin to a dominant function.
I remember her in the movie Closer and that movie has elements of this Fi id thing I’m talking about here.
At any rate, it brings a great and instinctive psychological awareness of the dark side of human nature. This Fi id is half the reason that INFJs are billed as great natural counselors and/or psychologists. They are born with this awareness, though, they might not know that they know.
As for Ni being more solid and reliable than Fi, I would say that is true in some instances because it is less subjective than Fi. But, Ni can also carry one far afield of grounded reality if allowed to. Fi is pretty grounded but just very susceptible to slights and such – Hamlet’s “the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune” and just his whole “to be or not to be” monologue. Whether to exist (Ni dominance with Se inferior implications) in a world that is so unjust and fucked (Fi id) that it is impossible to fix. To see the the incredible darkness of the world and ponder whether one (or how one can) exist in that world with that knowledge of human nature. Should one not just kill themselves rather than exist in such a cesspool of filth.
But, ahh, that is where the INFJ artist role comes from. God, if I could only express how the greatest artists that have ever lived in this world were predominantly INFJ types. And it was because they had to be artists. Or they would have gone mad, become sick with the most blackest depressions, or killed themselves. And many of them did this anyway.
And INFJs can become popular and beloved in the process for precisely the reason that they (some of them) can express this darkness in a way that is palatable to the great masses and healing and uplifting at the same time. The latter is the Fe auxiliary implications.
I cite the huge popularity of the Pink Floyd album Dark Side of The Moon and rest my case. It was one of the best-selling albums of all times. And that album is all about Fi id of INFJ, written largely by a guy that was an INFJ and had an actual Scorpio Moon (Roger Waters) and was writing the album inspired largely by an INFJ that lost their mind (Syd Barrett). His dark muse as it were.
Hell, the title, Dark Side of The Moon basically sums up all I’m saying.
But, it is all bourne on such an Fe current of heights and remove from the actual damage. The epic harmonies that are made out of the fractured psyche. Rapture, swoon, contort, dissolve.
I got another name for you: Bob Dylan. A lot of people don’t know a damn thing about Bob Dylan really. But, the existential heartbreak in his work is unparalleled among modern day poets and musicians. But, Dylan has less of the Fe thing, so you really have to listen more deeply to finally get it, but, man, when you do, forget about it, you’ll be crying. He talks of a certain futility in man-woman relationships and something about the nature of woman from this Fi id perspective that is so sad and lonesome.
His basic response to it = bye bye baby. “I gave her my heart, but, she wanted my soul”. O, the longing for that soul communion and O, the impossibility of satisfying that ancestral longing which basically amounts to such a weakening of the will and a will to drown in a lovely suffocation.
Now, Rilke is interesting because he was talking about how lovers try to hide from their fates in each other. Basically, they get in each other’s way. He saw the highest form of love as two people that stand guardian over each other’s solitude. Umm, Rilke knew some shit about what I speak of here. Guaranteed.
I love what you’ve written here. Thanks 🙂 Rilke was a wise soul.
“A scorpion is a creature that will sting itself to death out of pride if it senses that it is about to be killed by something else.”
Well, fuck.
I don’t know if that’s entomologically accurate, but it sure as hell describes me. Thanks for the image…maybe I can find a way to use it to remind myself not to do that.
Katie, is that you?
Katie, I think you might be an INFP.
Or I am.
Because none of what you said resonates with how I feel an INFJ feels.
I’d honestly rather be an INFP, can I pleeeeease be one?
Why do you want to be an infp? They’re so boring.
Actually, I often would like to be one. It would be so nice to live in a bubble of my own fantasies and happy thoughts. None of this ni insight into the heart of darkness to deal with.
I agree with Taddie that the different responses to this article may be down to age. I identify with the emotional extremes described here, but age and experience have mellowed me. I have come to recognise how hurtful my scorpio sting can be, and self-awareness and self-acceptance have meant that I no longer need to be quite so defensive.
I’ve also found that channeling my energy away from myself and my relationships toward bigger things which are connected in some way with humanity as a whole – art, humanitarian projects etc – is really helpful. I believe that infjs are gifted people, and without meaning to sound melodramatic, I think we are called to be warriors. I sometimes wonder if the relationship difficulties infjs (including myself) get themselves into are a symptom of us not following the path we’re meant to. Relationship drama can be a distraction from our higher purpose, which is to uplift humanity in some way.
Blake, many have determined that an ENTP is the supposed perfect partner for an INFJ…
But is the INFJ a perfect partner for an ENTP? Especially with his/her flaws?
Yes.
Blake needs to expand on this
Yes. Exactly. Please, please expand. We need to know.
Can i ask then, what will happen to romance between two INFJ women in love? Will they be more compatible than INFJ Men+ INFJ Women?
No.
Blake, first off I apologize for posting again, except I am not that sorry. I am and I am not. This is indeed both a stellar maze and an abysmal one. Digging deeper through the shit and dirt, I have already conceded there is a big truth in what you say and how it has played out in my life. When I have allowed it to sink in and for me to sink down to places past, I have been there. Maybe it is necessary to do this, but it brings to mind another Doors song. “Break on Through to the Other Side.” Maybe it is necessary for INFJs to lean into the mess and quagmire of toxic love and control and power struggles. Maybe we must be controlling and controlled and experience dominance on either end at some time. I forgot that I had been there. It seemed like someone else or another life. I do think there is unification and healing to be had after you experience extremes. I recognize I descended into very dark places and I had to burn, sting, be burned, and be stung. I think that is maybe indeed an INFJ thing. A Scorpio moon thing. I also think once you have exhausted this pattern, an INFJ can truly break on through to the other side. Persephone does not have to descend again after she has thoroughly experienced the dark. She is not afraid or hiding or avoiding, because she HAD to face it, experience it, and herself. I could be deluding myself, but I think not. I did not easily remember the details or the truth, because they already shaped and are apart of how I live and how I see the world. I live much differently now. I choose to, but am probably only free to do so because I chose to go to hell on purpose. I guess I had to. I definitely did.
Seeing that you yourself have gone through this descent, I have to agree with you that it might be necessary for an INFJ to experience the depths of darkness and despair to which wanting to devour/be devoured will take you. It seems like a developmental milestone, frankly.
“I recognize I descended into very dark places and I had to burn, sting, be burned, and be stung. I think that is maybe indeed an INFJ thing. A Scorpio moon thing. I also think once you have exhausted this pattern, an INFJ can truly break on through to the other side. Persephone does not have to descend again after she has thoroughly experienced the dark. She is not afraid or hiding or avoiding, because she HAD to face it, experience it, and herself. I could be deluding myself, but I think not. I did not easily remember the details or the truth, because they already shaped and are apart of how I live and how I see the world. I live much differently now. I choose to, but am probably only free to do so because I chose to go to hell on purpose. I guess I had to. I definitely did.”
There is truth in what Blake has written but I completely agree there is a place past this. I did exactly the same thing in a dark place, chose a beast who dominated and worked on carefully unbalancing my self respect after I chose to participate in the hell that was his mind and his bed. Eventually I grew either tired or wise and after turning the tables somewhat I came out knowing the primal ugliness some people make of sex and looking instead for the healthy ones for whom it is a positive life affirming experience. I can now sense an unhealthy sex drive a mile away and respond with palpable disgust. There is nothing that is a greater turn off.
I am glad ( that is not the proper word), but heartened that you two too 🙂 know something about the other side of the abysmal obsessive all consuming (and at first glance all so promising) primal love hell. I think that getting through it after descending to the deepest reaches of hellish, delicious and painful dysfunctional relationship/s can deliver us. We then can recover and find some equilibrium and clarity we never had about ourselves, which serves to make us more discerning in our approach to love. When all that has been thoroughly experienced, exhausted, and processed – there is a chance to do life and love differently. I do. It sounds as if you do also. I hate that we had to take part and co-create such a toxic cycle, but to do so may indeed be what it takes to heal and realize our truest and not daydreams preferences. For me, it has become essential to honor myself and newfound clarity unpolluted by foggy fantasy and idealized images. Once upon a time, I wrote poems as a teen to a demon lover, I think I found him and at times became him. I am done with him and I have come to terms and healed my inner demon id. At least, I am stronger than that id and can talk back to it and soothe that devilish id and choose not to be overly influenced by it, me, him.
“Just because we were born with scuba gear, does not mean we cannot appreciate snorkeling. ” This is a phrase of a mentor of mine. Real love may not take us to the heights or to the depths, but it is much more real and less a result of false images and less fraught with desperation and self/other deception.
Again, I had to live the heights and hells to discover this. I believe it was absolutely necessary to become awake!
Okay, Blake. I commented already with a “I’m not sure about all of this, maybe I’m not an INFJ” situation. I swear to god on first reading I didn’t get it.
A couple of days later, I’ve re-read it several times. I am starting to get it. I still don’t think I understand devouring vs being devoured, but I think I can see the edges of what you’re talking about. In myself I think a lot of that stuff, to the extent that I have it in a personal way, is suppressed and only allowed to emerge in art. I do make super-“passionate” art sometimes, juxtapositions of epic situations and huge emotions that are tightly controlled. Basically operas about Victorian English people with huge feelings and stiff upper lips. You’ve written about INFJs being “hard romantics” vs the INFP type – I felt there that I understood exactly what you were saying, and related to it. So maybe I sublimate the devouring aspect you’ve identified into my work.
I don’t know if this matters, but astrology-wise, my sun is in Capricorn, moon in Pisces, Gemini ascendant. I just looked at your Pisces moon article, and in the comments you say something about Cancer and Pisces vs Capricorn, rabid emotionality vs austerity and reserve. Which is basically a t-shirt slogan describing my personality. I’m really emo and crazy but my brain is too intense to just let the feelings hang out all the way.
I like what you say here about an INFJ woman claiming she wants intimacy and understanding from a partner, but then being unable to respect a man who caters to her. I totally know what that is like. It’s so stupid, but I really relate to that, the sense that there are only two options – the man who tries to please you and so is weakened by it, and the man who doesn’t bow to your pressure and so is worthy of respect but also doesn’t ever understand you, because the understanding itself is a sort of loss of something. So you can have loneliness and attraction or intimacy and boredom, pick one. I’ll have to read this article seventeen more times to understand more of why that works the way it does.
I read a book recently where a female character who seemed very INFJ to me fell in love with a sort of cheerful jockish fellow who fundamentally did not have the type of brain that could understand what she was talking about half the time. At the beginning of the book it seemed sad to me, that she would never really have true understanding from him, that she would always be alone on her mountaintop in this relationship, but the end it seemed kind of nice: she could rail against him and lose her shit completely and he just didn’t have the capacity to take that very seriously or be that bothered by it. So… loneliness, and attraction, I suppose.
And there is a third option:
Two INFJS deliciously loving one another and going deeper than ever imagined, over and over again. In my wildest dreams, I couldn’t have dreamt of a love affair so amazing and satisfying on every level; we get to devour and be devoured endlessly while being fully seen and understood in ways that transcends time and space. I soak from experience as my INFJ and I have been together for eight years.
A poem from W.B. Yeats comes to mind:
“A mermaid found a swimming lad,
Picked him for her own,
Pressed her body to his body,
Laughed; and plunging down
Forgot in cruel happiness
That even lovers drown.”
I think we INFJs, and perhaps our lovely INTJ siblings, need lovers who live, play, and thrive in the same deep waters. Just saying that mermaids and mermen don’t drown.
I would guess that would depend on the INFJ person in question, wouldn’t it? For myself, it’s difficult for me to be neutrally present with someone else’s emotional storm systems. That feels like part of the trade-off to me. Either the person I am with is someone who isn’t that bothered by my sturm und drang because it doesn’t resonate in their spirit, in which case I feel both safe to let it out and not totally understood, or the person completely understands, because they are one of my own kind, in which case they have their own huge feels!
I used to not believe in people being empaths and file it under meme-y woo by people who enjoy feeling special, but I have been forced to realize that a lot of what I used to experience as my own bad vibes welling up is actually me in some way (this sounds sort of crazy) absorbing or sensing or experiencing the emotions of other people. It’s still very hard for me to differentiate between how I feel and how other people feel – it has only recently occurred to me that it is even possible to not feel what other people around you are feeling! I thought everyone had this all of the time.
So it’s a double-edged sword for me to be around deep feelers. Deep thinkers is good, though.
“I would guess that would depend on the INFJ person in question, wouldn’t it?”
Yes, you’re right. Have you ever dated another empath? Because that may be the missing puzzle piece. It was for me. There is a neutrality with my bf that is similar to the peace I have when I’m alone – it’s the first time in any relationship that the eb and flow of energy is in equilibrium.
I do know exactly what you mean. A lot of us INFJs are empaths, not just highly sensitive, but ‘Your pain in my heart’ level of empathy. Oftentimes, we have been since we were young only to grow up and realize this. I think being an empath is a gift, yet we grow up not knowing about it and confusing our vibration with the vibes of others and the environment, and is painful. In my experience, as I’ve gotten older it’s become easier to know my own vibration and to discern when something else is not. Meditation, specifically Vipassana and Zen have helped tremendously.
Learning to live a life of balance and harmony is so critical when we’re giant sponges absorbing everything. It’s difficult for sure, but discernment is key. And now it’s a game I’m learning to master, no longer being at my its mercy but having the choice to play, or, not to play.
“Everything changes when you start to emit your own frequency rather than absorbing the frequencies around you, when you start imprinting your intent on the universe rather than receiving an imprint from existence.”
– Barbara Marciniak
Peace and love, dear INFJ.
Oh, another quote came to mind today that seems apropos:
“Everyone sees the unseen in proportion to the clarity of his heart, and that depends upon how much he has polished it. Whoever has polished it more sees more – more unseen forms become manifest to him.”
~ Rumi, a mystic poet
” Oftentimes, we have been since we were young only to grow up and realize this. I think being an empath is a gift, yet we grow up not knowing about it and confusing our vibration with the vibes of others and the environment, and is painful. In my experience, as I’ve gotten older it’s become easier to know my own vibration and to discern when something else is not. Meditation, specifically Vipassana and Zen have helped tremendously. ”
Making the tears flow. Really flow now. I’ve only become aware these last couple of years of how much I take in, how big of an influence it’s had. Learning how to channel the insight gained and put to good use, but until that it was often a big pile of informational emotional overload, where it almost felt like a disorder. Reading some replies here comforts me, really soothing *more tears, solace and snot* I didn’t expect this, and it feels like bunny fur, warm milk n honey (minus skin).
This is really odd, and super off. This is not INFJ behavior. It is also SUPER offensive, degrading, and off putting- I would actually even go so far as to say ABUSE.
“Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas,
Everybody’s looking for something.
Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused.”
– Eurythmics
Okay, RANDOMINFJ, sure.
Comments like yours make me feel like I don’t exist. You’re ABUSIVE, you sick cunt.
Uhhh I’m done.
RANDOMINFJ, me thinks you are not an INFJ.
And Melinda, you most definitely exist. Come back! You are understood, I assure you.
Hahaha, oh INFJ… We are some self-actualization obsessed, thirsty muthaphuckas, good Lord. I say that as an INFJ still digesting this. Primarily, dismissing the Ti, “make this response sound perfect” impulse and receiving my Fe, “you write songs as a means of survival” blissful engagement. As well as reconciling my Fi, “you succubus trash whore” tendencies of self reflection and my Te piggyback of, “and by the way, you’re also retarded, in that special needs way” response to these reactions.
What I’m trying to say is, thank you sir. Over and over, just, thank you.
You are spot on Blake and for those who don’t believe he is right about the submissive aspect right I have found a lot of peace in a D/s relationship.
INFJs are the children of Apollo. We were given the gift of prophecy, or in MBTI vocabulary, introverted intuition. Our fate is that most are Cassandras: disbelieved, ridiculed and ignored. Few have been elevated to Pythians. The Pythians being the artists that speak truth through visions and images.
What has this to do with INFJ women in love? Well, the way I see it, it is an INFJ’s fumbling attempt to heal the original wound of separation and individuation. A wound of the philosophical, epistemological and metaphysical variety. INFJs have very poor access to the external world, particularly when we are caught in the meat grinder of the Ni-Ti loop.
In a Cartesian sense, we may be certain of our own existence because intueor ergo sum, but since the external world remains just out of our reach due to our cognitive functions, we experience the world with grave uncertainty. This uncertainty is only confounded by the fact that our intuitions always point beyond us and our cognitively imprisoned subjectivity. In other words, our intuitions point to the very world that we ultimately know so little of. This leaves us in a bit of a pickle that I, at least, experience as pain.
Love is one means by which an INFJ attempts to heal this pain. And this is how I am reading Blake’s use of ‘devouring the beloved.’ My last relationship was precisely one of plowing deeper and deeper into my ex’s subjectivity. I wanted to achieve nirvana by ultimately dissolving the boundaries of subjectivity and arrive at the point where I would not be able to distinguish where I ended and where K. began. If I could dissolve the metaphysical boundaries of the self and achieve intersubjectivity, my wound would be salved. Who needs a transcendental unity of apperception then, eh Kant?
Yeah, pretty fucked up. But back to Apollo. INFJs are conduits of truths not our own. Hence our pious, but often failed, efforts to fulfill the Delphic injunction gnothi seauton. We seek to know ourselves and even look far and wide for others to explain our nature to ourselves. (Pity we ignore the other injunction, ‘Nothing overmuch.’)
But I think when an INFJ gets into one these relationships that relentlessly seeks to plumb the depths of the Mariana Trench, we seek to speak the truth of our beloved. We seek to know them to the point we can reveal their truths for them. Love is our intoxication and ecstasy that whips us into the frenzy necessary to utter the unutterable.
This leads us conveniently to Blake’s correct observation that the INJF will often ‘husk’ on a relationship. This is dead easy to explain: we husk when we have learned all there was to know and have drained the well of our partner’s secrets to reveal as truth. We stay interested as long as we can serve as the conduit for our beloved’s truths–but as Blake has rightfully pointed out, this is brutality and most men won’t tolerate this onslaught.
The challenge for INFJs is to learn to speak their own truths. Maybe this is what Blake means by firing up the Fe and express ourselves.
What a disastrously spot on comment. Beautiful precision. Thank you for that.
‘The frenzy to utter the unutterable’. And also to bear the unbearable (beauty, being). If only for an instant (or THE instant – Kierkegaard’s øjeblikket). When you are intoxicated by someone’s heavy dreams, ‘idols and ambergris and rare inlays’, high on a human being’s perishable splendour, and all that is unuttered in them, you find that the darkness and the light are momentarily reconciled in your blood. The visible surfaces of the world fall back, and the primal patterns and puzzles dance before you. You have only to reach for the final essence, and then dissolve. Sometimes you can see all that in a human’s eye – it’s dark dull emerald. And you’re curious. To find the limits of yourself when that eye is watching.
A conduit for other people ‘s truths and to utter the unutterable. This is so powerful to me. I spend a lot of time analyzing my thoughts and feelings, jumping back and forth from subjectivity to objectively. I connect patterns of behavior from my pass to my present but I rarely feel the need to share any of the insights I discover. But, when I encounter other people I almost instantly know their buried truths. If the other person is willing to have open back and forth conversations where I can use my gift of gab, then I reveal what I see in a very palatable way. Of course talking means I’m using my Fe and that is freeing. The truth is I really only want to discuss myself in terms of how it applies to the other person. But, because I know myself so well because of all the subjective/objective analyzing I do, I will reveal myself completely in this type of relationship. This is a very rewarding relationship for both of us. But if the other person can’t or won’t open up to me, that makes me go deeper and deeper into them. It’s like I’m looking for the key to unlock their mind, body and soul. This searching of them is irresistible to me but also becomes detrimental to both of us. Let the devouring begin. This happens in plutonic relationships as well as, romantic. Maybe even more in plutonic relationships because there are more boundaries.
Two, ah yes. 🙂
Thank you for reminding me.
I guess a simpler way to think about it would be:
INFJ = Ni feeds Fi feeds Ne
INFP = Ne feeds Fi feeds Ni
Possibly. Ni is inner sense of place in the universe, bottomless, a rabbit hole. An INFJ is defined by that, but often can’t explain it with Fi.
Whereas an INFP is defined by Ne, outer sense of place in the universe, which is all around. And easy to see if you’re an INFP. And processed through Fi before becoming part of their inner sense. Whereas INFJ kind of vomit out their sense of self everywhere in an attempt to find it.
Maybe?
INFJs vomit and swallow, because they’re groping around blindly in a way.
Whereas INFPs coax what they see right in front of them to come closer.
Both are amazing/rare types, and INFPs, damn to be honest I’m fucking jealous most of the time.
So take the time to really think about which one you are. Because I question it all the time, and aspire to be like an INFP too much haha.
Or just have a threesome. 😉
Love your post. True for me, through and through. Although said in the extremes, the extremes hit home for me.
So many ISFJs and INFPs mistaking their type for INFJ it seems, here and elsewhere.
Thanks for sharing.
I’ve no idea the ages of people with all the “You aren’t INFJ” comments but guess they are young. I only came to MBTI fairly recently but I’m over 40 and INFJ makes sense of my whole existence. All of it. I could point you back towards pre MBTI writing where I talk about having an attraction to darkness, and preferring other people with a dark spot in their soul so they can understand mine, the types of dreams and fantasies I have etc … You think you know but you don’t know jack. This is also INFJ. I don’t care if you don’t believe it but there it is.
I agree with you Taddie. I’m over 40 too. It took a long time to make sense of me and it took extremes in love and life, but no one will tell me who I am now.
I’m an INFJ female and you’ve described the fundamental failure of every long-term relationship I’ve ever had — especially the ending where everything gets emotionally toxic. I totally lose a sense of self and my self worth and I know how unhealthy that can be, but I can’t seem to help it. I was just dumped by an INTJ male after several months and our story goes something like this:
—
I followed you into your maze. I thought that we could navigate its cervices together, but you wanted me to find my way on my own. You told me that the reward at the would be infinitely more satisfying this way. No hand holding.
I didn’t know which direction you went. I only heard your voice in the distance speak of the final destination. I tried to follow you but only found myself lost in your maze. Maybe you were around the corner. Maybe we would have found each other if I was patient and persistent. Maybe we could continue finding our way through this dark labyrinth together. But I couldn’t find you.
I couldn’t see where I was going, only the thick barriers that divided you and I. I panicked. I was scared of the unknown. I was swallowed up in its darkness. And now you’re deep inside your maze and I cannot hear you anymore. Maybe you’ve stopped calling for me. And I start to panic again because I haven’t found my way out of your maze.
I’m wandering alone, wondering why you haven’t found me. Eventually I will find my way out and I’ll be able to see your maze from a distance. I’ll understand that I had forgotten to bring my own navigational tools to find my way around. That you didn’t leave me behind, but that I left myself behind.
—
I wrote that in my journal yesterday. And today I come across your article — very insightful but also just utterly tragic. I’ve had 3+ year separate relationships with an INTJ, an INFP and INFJ — same ending. So predictable.
Sigh. If my hand isn’t held I invent hell in my head and go live there. Why don’t they understand this.
I think you’re on to something.
INFJ women and men need space. But in relationship we want to be as close as physically, emotionally, spiritually possible. It makes for awesome sex – for awhile. This is the dilemma. Think of it like a fire. Fire needs space, air, to burn. Suffocate the fire and it goes out. That is the emotional and romantic life of an INFJ. Meet someone we love, and we dive in – get close, suffocate. Let go, let them go, give up – seek space. And then …. wow they are pretty hot again. The space brings in air and we are back to desire. Burn – Suffocate – Burn – Suffocate.
These are our choices, and for some reason INFJ have either an on or an off. No medium burn. Sigh.
I have figured out that every intense relationship I have ever had has been with an INFJ. The only way I can sustain the relationship is to enforce distance, time, space. We could never share an apartment, be together more than a few days at a time. The moment I become comfortable and close, that very moment, I can see it in the eyes – boredom, disrespect. The dutiful mate, ugh. I can see it and feel. At that moment, I get up and without missing a beat I am “I have to get the hell out of here!” Suddenly, “Don’t go! Why?” I drop the bomb, I’m bored and you don’t want me here. Yes I do! And I leave. The desire fills right back in. I am gone a few days. texts, no reply or a long wait. Calls let em ring. I need MY time.
It is the ONLY way. Is it lonely, yes. I always feel like an alien in my own world, always distant from my closest friends. But I can feel it, always I can feel it. I can sit in a room and ‘feel’ who is into me, ‘feel’ who is sad. I can tell every persons life story after I hear three sentences. How? I have no fucking clue. Desire is better than boredom, and so in my relationships I have to do it this way IF I am with an INFJ woman.
Yes.
For some reason I had to reread this article a few times to feel better about it as it initially made me feel a bit glum at its underlying and exaggerated truths. I don’t relate to many of the physical and literal manifestations mentioned in the article such as the polyamory and depraved sexual desires and endeavors, but in a fundamental, metaphysical way I certainly do. I was in a long, happy relationship with an ESTP whom I was completely consumed by. I felt like he understood me at a level I was satisfied with. During the last year or so of the relationship, an old childhood best friend of mine, an ENTP, came back into my life and began to show me I really could be understood to a further extent and continues to do so even now. The deep conflict within me is between the two…knowing both possess different things I want. I feel safest in this limbo close to both. So in that way, I relate to the polyamory in regards to satisfying Fi. Though it makes me feel like my bones are rotting and my organs are decaying.
Anyway…
As for the wanting to be dominated, the aforementioned ENTP friend does this to my mind, reducing me to soup. I suppose the way the aforementioned ESTP dominated me was probably by not fully understanding me, yet not desperately clawing away for the understanding and just skipping right to acceptance. I definitely can’t stand mostly all of the guys who end up having romantic feelings for me. In fact, I find it insulting and pathetic when they actually try to make something happen with me. Oops, is my self-absorption showing? But I really think it is more of a test. The person should be more mentally and emotionally strong than myself. Plus I do see getting involved with myself to be a bit of a doozy and a maze, so they obviously don’t know what they’re trying to sign up for. Not interested in the slightest.
I definitely relate to the fundamentals of how you describe the id in the INFJ, though in a less extreme manner. It doesn’t necessarily manifest in the sexual ways in which the article describes. I can see the natural tendency to want to be unhealthy and a slave to desires and whatnot, but I genuinely strive to be healthy through and through. I train myself to want healthy and to despise the unhealthy in every humanly facet. Thankfully I’m self-assured enough to stay away from the desire of power in the relationship. Plus I feel like as an INFJ in the specific scenario drawn out in the article, wanting power is short-sighted and not genuine, which contradicts healthy Ni. Not to mention, it’s a symptom of insecurity in the self…which I find out-of-character for a healthy INFJ…or at least for me.
Alas, your articles on INFJs are refreshing in contrast to all other sites that glorify them until I fall asleep in boredom. So thanks for keeping me awake!
This matches the infjs i know. The scorpion analogy works. I have seen idealized descriptions of infjs and others where they are made out to be hitlers. I prefer this explanation that does not care so much about assigning labels of selfish unselfish etc. rather describes a bunch of psychological dynamics.
Hello Mr. Blake, thanks for sharing this insightful and well written article, I feel 100% identified in the purest and most literal way. From the secret desire for violence (not coming from me though) to references to BDSM. In fact last week i ended a relationship, if you can call it that, where I was sub / slave. I think my Master was ISFP, It took me long to deduce that, because he had that dominant mask that gradually been shedding.
Our relationship has been fights after fights, reconciliations, ups and downs, and an emotional insanity, so beautiful and yet sick… The desire to be controlled, is a rare desire, it is authentic, but is a double-edged sword, the real thing is, i feel very powerful and excited because of the other’s needs to control me. It is very hard to explain, but I think that you explained it very well.
About having more than one partner, I would like, but something in me cannot, I can only focus on one person at a time and the oneness and intimacy I’m longing for does not admit lies or betrayals, also I like my partner to be jealous, demanding at the point he does not want me to even think of somebody else.
Sometimes I think this desire happens because deep inside I feel/know I belong to no one but myselft or maybe my audience.
I think our road is very lonely.
(If there’s anything incorrectly written, sorry in advance, im not an english native speaker)
Thanks, and best regards!
INFJ Female.
Sun: Piscis Moon: Leo Ascendant :Taurus
Enneagram 1w2 or 2w1
Your prognosis is rather pessimistic. While you may identify or connect to those that express unhealthy INFJ qualities, your opinion seems short sighted in self-actualization. I suppose you hope to steal all hope from the INFJs. Maybe you deem this as humor or charm but it just comes across as pathetic. Not sure of the objective in this post, to seem insightful? It is rather ugly and unhelpful.
INFJs can have successful long term relationships that are healthy and productive, when they know themselves and learn to communicate. Self-loathing doesn’t need to be a default or consistent attribute, especially if any degree of maturity is achieved. The relationships you describe sound like ones children participate in.
I agree with Nico Lovreto.
It is shame you have all that pessimistic concepts about INFJ woman, you
underestimate them.
I think I am giving an estimate of their underside. Which is not the same thing as underestimating them.
Thank you. Feeling a bit hopeless after reading this. My sentiments
“INFJ woman introjection of man.”
I keep getting snagged on this. I don’t know what you mean. Looked it up online but it was too vague.
That statement means that the INFJ woman takes the man into herself and devours him metaphorically. She takes in his essence and once penetrated and got at, she is either largely uninterested or she wanna play dark games.
INFJs are introjects. That might be a good title for them. Remember when Jung called extraverts, “the prolific”, and introverts, “the devouring”. Well, that devouring aspect particularly applies to INFJ via her Fi Scorpio id, with all the implications of the Ni dominant backing it up. Or maybe it is the other way around. Anyway…
Introjection is a psychoanalytic term (like the concept of “projection”). When you introject you steal the world and make it yourself. I guess what I was getting at by that was that when the INFJ woman takes in the man’s traits, behaviors, essence (whatever she can get at), she is then largely done with the man. Or the person. INFJs introject others qualities. Introjection is not like passive taking on of other’s traits. It is more of a direct taking of them. Active desire to be influenced and inundated with the traits of certain others. To try them on for oneself.
This trait of introjection is also part of the INFJ genius, when used in art, for example. For an actor, it would be necessary, I would think. To try on someone else’s persona, and even, their essential being.
INFJs are hungry for more personas, characters, essences. It is the inverse process to the extraverted sensation way. Se participates and has experiences in the world. INFJs takes the world inside itself to have a similar experience as Se types.
Instead of add itself to the world, INFJ adds the world to itself. At least, if they can get away with it, they will.
This may be why INFJs could be considered vampiric. They need some blood to suck on.
It’s quite a powerful little number, this introjecting facility. It is much akin to how artists are essentially amoral and use everything as material for their art. This is not a moral quality. It just is.
It is probaly the Ni equivalent of empathy.
Glad I asked. Thank you! Another angle to chew on in introspection land.
“INFJs introject others qualities. Introjection is not like passive taking on of other’s traits. It is more of a direct taking of them. Active desire to be influenced and inundated with the traits of certain others. To try them on for oneself.”
Is this the same as the mirroring? You say it’s not passive, but it is so natural one doesn’t even try and is embarrassed sometimes with the sudden and obvious accuracy. I’ve also been told more than a few times that I have an accent.
“When you introject you steal the world and make it yourself.”
“INFJs takes the world inside itself to have a similar experience as Se types.”
“Instead of add itself to the world, INFJ adds the world to itself.”
“It is much akin to how artists are essentially amoral and use everything as material for their art. This is not a moral quality. It just is.”
I kin these. They just feel accurate.
“I think I am giving an estimate of their underside. Which is not the same thing as underestimating them.”
E N T P flashed in my mind. I just picture an entp saying this.
Blake,
Thank you very much for your real insights into the infj condition. I am an infj female, who grew up with a cold-blooded entj father and an emotionally manipulative isfj mother. All your articles on these three types has been dead on. My infj type along with the daily violence, neglect and years of being literally brainwashed by mother’s Disney movies, makes it no wonder I found someone to save and be saved by: my ESTP ex-husband. It was the basic dynamic you described and he couldn’t connect with me on any level. Then I freed both him and myself and got involved with an infp who went from cuddly kitten to just wanting me to be his slutty whore (who he doesn’t really want long-term anyway). I have no idea how this happened – probably has to do with me more than him.
Anyway, this is when I stumbled upon your site. I am in circumstances where I really have only one more shot at an intimate relationship – and then it’s just put up with it forever or be alone forever. I am guessing, this infp would be a hot fling, but would get stale a few years into marriage. I care too much about him (now anyway) to condemn him and myself to such a fate – well about myself really. He can go to hell. I should let it go, right? There isn’t real potential.
What I understand from your insights is that if an infj has no choice but to be monogamous for eternity, it should be with an entp. How does the dynamics of the infj-entp relationship begin (play out in the courting phase)? And develop (long-term)? How do we not screw up our relationship with an entp, considering most other matches get to become toxic? Does/will/can he understand or at least accommodate to our depths, heights and sexual quirks/perversions (e.g. being open to expression in role play)? We would appreciate gaining insight into what a healthy relationship would look/be for us, in comparison to the disastrous and agonizing experiences we usually suffer from. Many thanx.
Um, that’s a lot of questions. What I will say is that I don’t believe that if an INFJ wants to be monogamous for all eternity, this means they MUST pick an ENTP to be with. Theoretically, that is what I arrived at as the best bet for an INFJ to both keep them interested and to avoid falling into the deep Fi id trap. ENTP will not engage INFJ in their Scorpio brand of Fi – the deadly kind. ENTPs are immune to Scorpion stings. Be hard to break their heart and send them to anything approaching depths of cynicism, bitterness, and nihilistic negation.
ENTPs are not likely to break your heart either. What they are likely to do is take you to a place that you might have only a dim sense of if you have never experienced it. It is called The Planetarium.
It is called infinite space and billions of dotted stars lying therein. It kind of gets you out of something that seemed so ultra-personal, subjective, deep, passionate, insatiable, hungry, desirous, ravenous…
No, all that goes away in a backyard of stars. It becomes a non-issue. Yet, it doesn’t become a dealbreaker. You just aren’t thinking in those terms anymore. It’s kind of cosmic. And, dare I say, mystical.
But, it must be experienced. The closest thing I can think to it is of a planetarium. INFJs love planetariums. They want to live in them.
ENTPs are planetariums walking around in human form. Well, some of them are anyway. In short, best bet at finding containment for INFJ is with ENTP. An INFJ can only be contained in infinite space.
Remember when Hamlet said, “I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.”
Well, ENTP = infinite space minus the bad dreams. Theoretically.
Also, this doesn’t mean that all you need to do is find an ENTP and “voila” all your problems are solved. What I’m saying is that an ENTP might be a problem that an INFJ over long periods of time wants to keep returning to.
That being said, on the way to that long time, an ENTP will drive you up the fucking wall and back down again. But, in a good kind of way. An INFJ in the moment is likely to be utterly exasperated, flabbergasted, etc. with said ENTP. But, truth be told, they rather like it. It is a mystical thing. Hard to explain. But, it works best of all. One of the reasons for this is that you can never possess an ENTP. Yet, the issue of possession disappears when you realize what they are.
Put it this way. If there is infinite space, the idea of possession and jealousy vanishes. It all is fueled by limited resources. ENTP is everywhere and nowhere at once. How could you be with them or not be with them? See what I mean?
Yeah, like I said, it’s mystical. And INFJs love that.
You need to balance this out with how a healthy INFJ in a sustainable love looks.
Exactly. The request of the masses.
Too much introjection, too much bias, too much hostility, BUT…I can die happy now, knowing that Hell, Satan, Evil, World Dominance, and Loathing of the human race is so me! Damn! I’m going to die happy, thanks to you. Have a nice life!
Blake said in response to a former comment:
INFJs are introjects. That might be a good title for them. Remember when Jung called extraverts, “the prolific”, and introverts, “the devouring”. Well, that devouring aspect particularly applies to INFJ via her Fi Scorpio id, with all the implications of the Ni dominant backing it up. Or maybe it is the other way around. Anyway…
Introjection is a psychoanalytic term (like the concept of “projection”). When you introject you steal the world and make it yourself. I guess what I was getting at by that was that when the INFJ woman takes in the man’s traits, behaviors, essence (whatever she can get at), she is then largely done with the man. Or the person. INFJs introject others qualities. Introjection is not like passive taking on of other’s traits. It is more of a direct taking of them. Active desire to be influenced and inundated with the traits of certain others. To try them on for oneself.
This is one of the better descriptions I’ve heard of this ability. For many years I didn’t even understand that I literally take on others behavior in the moment and act out their thoughts and feelings. Afterwards I would feel so misunderstood by others and myself. I would voice anger or beliefs that I didn’t agree with. Afterwards I would feel like I had been possessed. I gave up trying to explain this to other people because they didn’t believe me or they thought I was crazy. I wonder if this ability is linked to an infj’s constant search for identity. My birth chart seems to reinforce this in me. I’m a Pisces and I have Scorpio moon but I also have my south node in libra. According to a book called “astrology for the Soul” by Jan Spiller south node libra people are born with the ability to merge their identities with other people. I know it’s sounds crazy but I can know people so intimately in such a short period of time. I think people would really be terrified by me if they really knew how much I know about them without them saying a word. Is there anyone else out there that feels this way?
Thanks for the insights Blake. I don’t love this article, not because it’s lacking in truth but because people who aren’t infj’s can very easily misinterpret this information. I also think as we grow up we learn to have more realistic expectations of others.
I think another name for introjection might be enmeshed. If anyone disagrees with that please write something as I am also here to learn. I dated an man who was so insecure he would copy me and others as well. He even said others said he was like Zelig, as in the movie of the same name. The more I got to know him the more I saw that he blatantly borrowed from others…words, images, thoughts, mannerisms, interests. I had no clue who he was and he did not either and he could not tell me. He also had very poor respect for my boundaries and did not seem to get that I was a separate person from him with different feelings, thoughts and needs. I had to pull his tentacles and suckers off of me and end the relationship.
Male INFJ’s introject as well, it is not just the females.
I also wonder if female and/or male INFJ’s may introject as we are very much interested in the inner life, our own as well as others?
A good way to think of introjection might be that it is like a projector that has gone into suck mode. So, instead of projecting an image outwards they (INFJ) suck an image inwards. I would like to emphasize this more “active” quality that “introjection” has as a mechanism. An INFJ may be rather indiscriminate about what they suck in and where they begin and others end but this quality of introjection is like a forceful stealing of another’s traits and essence. Instead of interacting with the other out there in the world, the INFJ forces them in and takes what it likes and leaves the rest.
It is also related to when you really admire someone, maybe someone that you can never have a relationship with, like a famous person, or a famous dead person. Well, INFJs are good at emulating what they perceive to be the most salient and defining traits of this other person.
I think much of the time it is quite a positive mechanism. But, it sort of belies true relationship in the flesh. INFJs, being introverts, and intuitives, don’t have the kind of resources that as extraverted sensor (for example) has in the world for getting to know and experience things or people first hand. Nope, INFJs know they don’t have that sorta time, so, they get out there, meet someone, size them up quickly, steal them, sample them, and then they are back home. They’ll take their time to look at it and revel in it in secret. Then, if they like the possibilities they are sensing, they come back out again for repeated contact to see what else there is to be seen, felt etc.
But, an INFJ can introject from a distance too. They never have to meet the person they are introjecting from. They could introject from reading a book someone wrote that they feel particularly resonant with.
Or maybe they can even introject negative qualities that they don’t resonate with to see what those are. Etc.
Your explanation of introjection does make a lot of sense to me. Some INFJ’s I know, as you have said, have fallen “in love” without meeting someone in person and I could never understand that. I am INFJ and also a Capricorn, so maybe I am too practical for that.
Enmeshment is a word used to describe codependency, while that can certainly be an issue with people, at this point in my life, it is not. I very much know who I am and what I believe. I can see when I was younger and less experienced that was a side effect of what I am talking about. Now I see it as a way to help create an emotional safe place for people. I have learned to control my reactions to other people and not interfere with them by stealing their emotions away. But I still receive the information. I can’t turn that off. As far as your friend, I’m sure it was a suffocating for you and not everyone that enmeshes is an infj. Enmeshments happen because of disfunction. I have personal experience with both. I just feel very frustrated on how to use this ability in a bigger and more healing way without crossing boundaries. I suffocate myself sometimes because I’m unsure how to use the info I receive to help people in the appropriate way. I know Blake says Fe is the cure but my most satisfying form if Fe is verbalization. But, me verbalizing other peoples emotions and struggles in real time is not always appreciated, as you can imagine. I so much want to enlighten people and let them know I see them. I see ALL of them and its okay. Yes I see your hurt and struggle but I see your potential even more. Just lay it down, Let it go and you can move past it……well I guess today I got my Fe on through writing. Wow that felt good!!
I do the same thing, to what I’ve always thought was a stupid degree. I always wonder what is really me and what is the other person. It has added a lot of skills to my repertoire though 🙂
“INFJs know they don’t have that sorta time, so, they get out there, meet someone, size them up quickly, steal them, sample them, and then they are back home. They’ll take their time to look at it and revel in it in secret. Then, if they like the possibilities they are sensing, they come back out again for repeated contact to see what else there is to be seen, felt etc.”
… and if they really like it, they keep it. For ever.
“But, an INFJ can introject from a distance too. They never have to meet the person they are introjecting from. They could introject from reading a book someone wrote that they feel particularly resonant with.”
Most of my character is taken from books and movies. I tell people this, they don’t get it or they think I’m just saying I liked the shows a lot. But it’s real.
You have known a lot of INFJs.
” I think much of the time it is quite a positive mechanism ”
In what ways do you find it quite a positive mechanism ? To me it seems like a kind of a negative trait.
It’s positive in the sense that “good artists borrow, but great artists steal”. Heard that quote before? Do the math. INFJs are the “artist type” par excellence, the true artist. Introjection is very positive and necessary for great art of any sort.
Blake, again thank you for your explanation of introjection and thank you for saying it’s not necessarily negative. I have been accused of enmeshment and lacking boundaries from people that didn’t understand what I was trying to say about me being able to feel and think other peoples stuff. I kind of feel like introjection is the core of who I am. It is my identity. If that makes sense. I’m a pisces, so I kind of always think of myself as a fish swimming in the ocean. I see a dolphin in the distance and think “what’s it like to be a dolphin”. I don’t just sit back and observe, I swim over and become a dolphin. When I get my fill, I swim away and become myself again. But, I’m part dolphin forever. I don’t see this as negative unless I try to change who the dolphin is. This is where I get confused. If I’m experiencing being another person through introjection and that person is hurting, then I want to help heal that person and if that person becomes part of me through the introjection process, heal myself? Wow, that sounds really messed up. Am I looking at this wrong. Apparently, I’m really struggling with what to do with this gift or curse. I feel like if I start trying to change someone I’m losing my way and introjection will turn detrimental. But it’s so frustrating not knowing what to do with this very unique and powerful ability and how to manifest it in a positive way. Any suggestions or advice is appreciated.
Is there a difference between introjection and empathy?
The commentariat on this website is so interesting to me. It’s the only place I’ve ever seen other people talk about things I recognize. Recently I was trying to explain to someone that I have to limit my exposure to certain types of books, because my brain doesn’t seem to me to differentiate between “this is happening to me,” or “this is a thing that is happening to a fictional character I am reading about”. Obviously I am not so crazy that I don’t realize that I am not literally experiencing what the character is experiencing – but the emotional experience can be extremely intense, outlandishly intense. I can be totally floored by the emotion generated within me by certain works.
I’ve always found this embarrassing and confusing, because I don’t normally think of myself as a very emotional (perhaps I should say sentimental, I can be quite brisk about things other people are emotional about) person.
@Michelle, I don’t think I’m in a place where I can see the clear benefit. I can see that the way my brain operates can give me holographic sketches of what is going on with another person – I’ve said here elsewhere that it has only recently become clear to me that not everyone in the world is constantly, involuntarily getting impressions of how other people feel. Sometimes I wonder if people like this would make good spies, or at least good analysts. I don’t know if people with this complex of weird bullshit could be fancy action spies. But I do think that maybe an upside of this type of brain is that it can suddenly coalesce a lot of information into a single point of comprehension.
I have not really related to the idea of “devouring the man” that is written about here, but it just occurred to me that this is in part because I don’t find that many people interesting enough to even have those feelings about, and then on the heels of that I realized that my process is – I feel interest in someone (not necessarily romantic, or in a man), I absorb their personhood in some way I don’t understand, I seek to understand it deeply, I want to know who they are and why they are the way they are, what their pain is. And then almost inevitably there comes a moment where I understand something about them that I don’t like. Inevitably, it’s something petty: a while ago someone I had been finding relatively fascinating used the wrong French word and my whole being recoiled. (Yes, ridiculous.) It wasn’t just that they used the wrong word, it was that I had been understanding them as a person who was very intellectual, Not Like Other People, an ironist, a master of true understanding, and then – tragedy! the wrong word! The emperor has no clothes after all.
Through the introjection lens, I wonder if that’s what Blake is talking about. I love not understanding people fully, I think. I love the mystery, which is hard to come by for someone who at least thinks s/he understands people relatively easily. But I also seek total comprehension, it’s why the mystery is pleasurable, it’s the hunger before the meal. So naturally total comprehension, the reaching of the goal, is a disappointment. (I think the French say something like “Most of the pleasure is in the first bites.”) I remind myself of a different version of a type of man who has always baffled me, the type of man who is obsessed with the chase and disdains the catch. Except I don’t want to possess people physically, I want to understand them as beings. I think that’s it. I want to understand people as nobody has ever understood them – an understanding that is I suppose a type of possession – and the having of that is invariably somewhat disappointing, because of course everyone uses the wrong French word some of the time.
I grew up thinking everyone is like me. I thought they all saw and felt what I felt. As a child I felt very bad about myself because everyone else moved through life unaffected by the dishonesty I experienced all around me. I thought I was weak and broken because I struggled so much. It’s hard to trust people who are lying. I was so young I didn’t understand that it wasn’t lying as much as it was self deception. I never realized until I was much older that my brain works differently than most others. After I started learning about cognitive functions and I discovered this website, I was like holy shit my brain is amazing!! I feel like a kid with a new toy. I started reading about the enneagram many years ago. I never identified myself as a four because I didn’t see myself as unique and different. Now, I’m fascinated by my own brain and how to use it in the real world. I feel like I have discovered who I am by discovering who I’m not. I don’t know if that makes sense to anyone else. I feel very excited and for the first time ever I want to come out of hiding and share my discoveries. I just have to figure out how to share them……….the fact that I’m sharing this is obviously the first step.
I appreciate the time and original thought that went into this post. As an INFJ woman, I relate to a lot of what you describe but think you are off the mark with some of the interpretation.
To start, there is a big difference between love and desire. Couples can have healthy loving relationships and lack sexual desire or vice versa. I love Esther Perel on this topic — she has a book, two TED talks and some YouTube interviews. She talks about marriage and infidelity, ways that love and desire differ, and can even contradict. Our image of ideal love includes stability, acceptance, belonging, and having — whereas desire is defined by wanting, i.e., not having. Desire requires a sense of space, otherness, separateness, difference.
Your description of the two ways INFJ women love reminds me of this. Your comment about INFJ women devouring others sounds like a negative interpretation of desire. The higher road – genuine concern for the other – sounds like love. I think sex can be a place to express love and desire, which may result in apparent contradictions.
In sex, a woman may focus on the emotional side of things, want love, closeness, intimacy, safety and acceptance.
She may also focus on desire. Your description of aggressive dynamics — power play, testing the other person, teasing — can be thought of as ways to engage with a partner’s “otherness”, to feel their boundaries and edges, much as you might feel someone’s face in the dark.
I agree there is definitely a theme of power. The energy makes me think of tigers rough-housing. There is both seriousness and play in exploring boundaries and getting to know the other.
I think the power theme comes from extraverted sensing (Se), which is INFJ’s inferior function. Naomi Quenk’s book “Was that really me?” describes how Se is expressed as an inferior function and the important role of the inferior function as a gateway to the psyche. (If this is true, INTJs would have similar behaviors to INFJs).
INFJs are imaginative so I’m not surprised if Se themes, hopes and fears are expressed through fantasies. Your description of being “owned” sounds like a fantasy about wanting the other person to truly see us and understand us without us having to explain or do the work — the fantasy of a man who just walks in, ignoring all the defenses and screens we built for protection — someone who sees us and already understands us so we don’t have to be bothered to painstakingly piece together logic around what we non-verbally know through intuition to explain to the other person. (What a way to set the mood!). And while we are on the subject of work, I can relate to a fantasy of being passive. Men in my fantasies find it easy to take action and they take responsibility for me.
Mature INFJs recognize this as a fantasy, not an expectation of their partner.
For those who are open to polyamory, great. And I appreciate your openness to it. Sexuality for woman is still so polarized — you can be a good girl or a bad girl, but there’s not much room in the middle. I don’t know if that’s from Christianity too or not. But it’s definitely an area where there needs to be more room for gray areas and accepting or exploring different preferences.
That said, my first thought when reading this post was – wait — Why can’t a man satisfy the INFJ woman’s needs? This stood out to me as a major assumption. I have to wonder if it is the real crux of the issue being discussed — male fear or shame of not adequately pleasing women, twisted into “Women can’t be pleased! They are impossible!” For INFJ woman, yet another disappointment of being misunderstood in a negative light.
I think it’s the mystery and myths and cultural roles around sex and gender in our culture that prevent the man from being successful and the woman from feeling satisfied, not anything pathological about what the woman wants. I think it’s sad if a woman believes that they are difficult to please. Certainly it’s the last thing that I want to hear from my partner — that I am SO difficult to please and hard to understand that I need to have two men”. Sad because I might believe that I’m difficult if I didn’t stop to think about it.
INFJ women are not that difficult to understand but we can feel like it when we aren’t validated by people around us or when people react in ways that we don’t expect and we think something about us caused their reaction.
Well I’m here to affirm that all you INFJ women are not impossible to please — you can have heady sexual experiences, feel complete unity of self, extreme awareness of the moment, effortless surfing along the wave of time, no separation between thoughts and speech, sense the other person’s soul beside you so close you could touch it…
INFJ Women: Satisfaction is possible. For me, still not predictable. Partners: you are doing too much work. Hold an INFJ woman’s gaze, appreciate her out loud, respect her, be present for her, reply to her — wait at the surface of your skin for connection and watch the show.
Thanks for the comment. It is very articulate and well-thought out. And poetic.
Keep in mind that I am writing about the INFJ woman from my point-of-view. It isn’t the only point-of-view. It is one interpretation. Mine.
Thank you for this, Elsibabe <3
@elsibabe
The last paragraph of this made me cry. It is beautiful and completely accurate. Thank you for all of this. It is a great reminder of things I seem to lose sight of so easily.
Planetarium…By Jove! Stellar Maze…My God!
All these cosmic connections are causing me to supernova.
I was obsessed with astronomy when I was a teenager. I remember writing one of my college application essays on nebulae. I was certain that if I had never experienced love, I would surely have discovered it upon first laying eyes on the Crab or the Horsehead Nebula.
A summer family vacation in Lake Tahoe during high school. We stayed in a cabin, and one night I ensconced myself in the car–it had a moon roof. Not out of any distinct desire to escape my family, but out of a need to behold the heavens. How often do we look up at a sky so pristine? An expansiveness and purity so cleansing, so centering, so calming. I remember listening to “Save the Population” by Red Hot Chili Peppers on repeat that night.
This article made me realize why I criticizes myself continuously, it was an unconscious effort to make me see how bad I can be when I think I was so kind and good in the first place.
I feel sad, hopeless, everything seems too complicated.
I really truly know that I don’t want to hurt any other soul, yet how can I do it, if I can hurt them without me even realizing it?!
Hurting people is inevitable and a part of life. It is more just having an awareness of a dynamic and accepting it. It isn’t inherently bad. It just is. Are predators bad? Are prey good? Both are necessary in the chain of life. Same with INFJ women and their id dynamics. I want you to know that I AM NOT placing a negative value judgment on her ways.
Also, this may not apply to you, ya know? Not everyone who is INFJ will be in it at the same depths or levels. Learn to take everything you read with a grain of salt.
Don’t assume that just because I said all this shit, it means that it is right, either universally for INFJ, or for you personally as an ostensible representative of the type.
I’m an INFJ male and I found myself in this description. But… I think the brain still wanting to find some difference between men and women. Maybe because we, as children, discovered the biologic differences. We have kept that conception of sexual identity in mind for yeaaars without questionning it.
BUT, I think that if we put some efforts to remove these conceptions, we find that INFJ women and INFJ men are just the same. It was hard for me to admit that this very good description of an INFJ female works for me too, as a INFJ male. It’s just more difficult for a man to admit the “Yin” aspects of his personnality, even with the MBTI theories.
I assure you that all the INFJ are, more or less secretly, like this description.
I prefer ENTP and INTJ females because the feeling of being with a not-submissive girl (or a little) is perfect. I feel alive with this type of girl. I doesn’t pay attention to Fe-dom or Fe-aux girls because it feels to easy to have her attention when we are in a relation. I want to surpass my limits. And with ENTP and INTJ female… I love to play with her weaknesses… yeah i admit it… ahah. So I can feed my needs of profound love with a girl who rocks !
To conclude : ENTP and INTJ girls, I love you !
Sorry, I’m not english, my car is kitchen in the dog without trees but I assure you I live in the south of water but yellow !
Why is this dude being applauded for his extremely misogynistic “personal interpretations?” There’s a way to talk about submission and domination and sex and lust and desire without being a total meathead who is clearly demeaning and belittling towards women. I could go on and really spell out the ways in which Blake the Dude is a patriarchal and patronizing wad of crap, but I’m just not really interested in it. Plus, you’ve got a dozen commenters here who are going out of their way to validate you and your interpretations, so what is just one anonymous commenter to you? meh, go screw.
i couldn’t agree more. this is clearly written from a personal (and sorry, but also a bit superficial) point of view put down as a generalized truth about INFJ woman. i kinda find this image what’s being made of female INFJ very incorrect and to give advice to becoming polyamorous is not the answer for every person who is an INFJ, should not be stated as a solution.
To put it bluntly, why should I care what you think? And I mean that non-rhetorically. I want you to answer the question, and if you don’t, I have no reason to pay you any mind.
Also, how is it CLEARLY written from a personal perspective? Even if it were, how is that a grounds for dismissing what is contained in this article?
Isn’t your comment written from a personal perspective? You say ” i kinda find this image what’s being made of INFJ very incorrect…”
In short, who the fuck cares that you kinda find this image what’s being made of INFJ very incorrect?
Why should I care that you kinda find it to be incorrect?
Again, I mean that non-rhetorically.
Answer those questions and I may be willing to see your point-of-view. So far, you have offered no reason why I should pay attention to what you have said.
It seems you are objecting to this article on purely knee-jerk emotional grounds. Personal grounds. If you want to elevate the discourse above the personal as you accuse me of not doing, then, do so.
I welcome intelligent debate. In fact, I’m hungry for it.
@screw
Since you said :
“Plus, you’ve got a dozen commenters here who are going out of their way to validate you and your interpretations”
I am going to go ahead and stand up for Blake’s interpretations, not because he needs anyone to, but because I just felt like it..
Blake’s interpretations are anything but misogynistic.. This is how he expresses his respect for women, by delving deep into their psyche and paying heed to ‘all’ that he finds there.. I don’t see how having the ability to accept that a woman can have dark desires or have andronihilistic tendencies or have an insatiable appetite for intellect and emotion is demeaning towards her.. In fact, it sounds to me like you have a problem accepting that a woman is capable of being anything but prim and proper.. Blake’s ideas come from keen, deeply interested observation, which has allowed him to see what truly lies in an INFJ woman’s heart and mind.. A black hole.. We like feeding on minds.. We like feeding on emotions.. Yes, at times we are all for the benefit of others and we can be those graceful, strong, benevolent feminine figures that men want to be feminists for and be oh so respectful towards.. But at all times, invisibly, we are consuming all that surrounds us, in the hope of satisfying that unscratchable itch, that unanswerable question, who am i? And in that process we also want to consume all the masks of society, all the should bes, and get down to what is real.. Not reality, but what is real about reality.. So yes, we do consume the masks of men.. The desire to see you BE who you are.. Be who you ARE.. So that I can BE who i AM.. And yes, once we’ve seen the being and the is-ness we still don’t find anything real in the projection or the core.. So we remain ever hungry.. And somehow Blake’s posts show us that he sees our being and is-ness.. An observer with an observation, not an opinion.. He has people defending his point of view cause it is from their point of view.. A point of view from an angle that even they have difficulty achieving and sustaining.. The subconscious wants to stay hidden and wants to be found.. Blake reveals it and gives us what we want and don’t want.. Which is what makes his ideas so irresistible even if they are hard to digest.. It takes a twisted mind to see the horrifying beauty in a twisted mind.. So no.. He is not a “patriarchal and patronizing wad of crap “.. He’s just being honest.. Something you are not being with yourself when you make a supercilious, self-righteous comment like that.. Do you really care about others reading his post being insulted by his views or are you trying to prove to yourself and others that you’re above him? Because if it was only about you being offended you probably wouldn’t have commented, unless you’ve observed and understood the labyrinthine synaptic eddy currents in an INFJ woman? In which case you should “spell out the ways” in which you have come to a conclusion opposing Blake’s.. And now I don’t even know why i actually replied to your comment.. Is it cause I care about what you have to say or think or because I felt protective towards the mind that cared about peeping into a mind similar to mine.. Either way..
@blake
Thank you for your fascination and your intuition and your expression and just being who you are..
What you have written is oh so perfectly right, but you are also wrong. All of the above is true, but still – we are not filthy. We are not rotten. We feel death, but we do not reek of it. We don’t want to be humiliated*. These things are beyond and fucked up, and mysogynistically wrong. You won’t hear a man describing another whole group of men in those terms, unless they hate them.
* Yes, yes, exceptions exist. On the whole, I’m correct.
@ Piggie:
Your welcome and thanks for your very interesting commentary.
whoa, okay there, let me first say i am glad you are open to debate to anyone who’s doesn’t think the same way. and to be clear, i apologize, if it might came of as a bit harsh, because i really wasn’t trying to offend you. i’m not here to look for a fight.
but to answer your question: i’m not really trying to say you should care actually, because i am only stating what my take on your article is and (not specifically to you) that there are still people who just don’t agree to everything your saying.
since asked for an explanation: the reason why i “clearly” think this is written from a personal perspective is because the way you write about how woman think and do, is not really unbiased or objective. you can be very specific sometimes and you also seem to make general conclusions about woman (and about men too actually).
and i can agree, your article should not be dismissed for being written from a personal perspective, because sure, you should write what you want on your own blog. but the reason why i in particularly am opposed and not feeling the vibes here, is because you write those personal interpretations as facts to inform an audience about big topics. at least that is how i interpret you.
thank you for bringing up that one sentence of mine, because i specifically formulated that sentence with “i kinda find” because i want to clarify it is indeed a subjective opinion, kinda unlike how you wrote your article, which was what i was going for. i don’t want people to interpret that it’s more than just me finding it incorrect.
and why do i find it incorrect? maybe because i am an INFJ woman and i don’t look at love that way at all, maybe since the INFJ women you sketch are so specific, the advice you give is probably specific too, so not relatable to every INFJ woman or person dealing with INFJ women. also (INFJ) people are way to complex and divers to say this is what they all are and why they all do it.
i do not need you to actually care for whatever i am trying to say, i am not giving you a reason to, because my intention was not to get your care, attention, respect, understanding or anything else whatsoever. my motivations were not to justify myself to you, but hey, since you had so many questions, i will answer.
the only reason i had to comment was to simply make clear that there’s more than your perception (and even mine), because i think that seems to be a fact you keep missing. sure you make some good points sometimes, but not every man, woman, INFJ, non-INFJ ticks in the ways you say they do. and people should still consider looking surpass that.
maybe i don’t want any doubtful person dealing with an INFJ reading this and thinking this is an inevitable truth about INFJs or whatever, i don’t think it is.
Vierk says in previous comment: “the only reason i had to comment was to simply make clear that there’s more than your perception (and even mine), because i think that seems to be a fact you keep missing.”
Me says in this comment: The reason you commented was because you were trying to make clear that my perception on INFJ woman is not the only one?
Um, I think that is fairly obvious by taking a quick look around Google search results for the topic. Where did I mention in this article or elsewhere that my perception/opinion is the only one and should be taken as irrefutable fact?
To me, and many of my readers, it is obvious that my perceptions/opinions are in the minority, and even more, nowhere else to be found on the internet or offline.
Why must I state something that is obvious if the reader would just perform a bit of due diligence? Check around a bit. It’s obvious that what I’m saying here is controversial.
Also, check the tone of the writing. The tone is the key to the obviousness factor. And the context. The context would be the things that have been said on this topic hitherto.
If anything, I think the prevailing wisdom on INFJs should be questioned and challenged rather than taking it as a given. That would be the less superficial thing to do.
Ask yourself this question? How do you know what an INFJ is or isn’t? Your only appeal thus far has been to yourself. Rather personal isn’t it? And insular. You do see how that is a faulty basis for opposing the general tenure of what has been written in this article? And I’ve seen it many times from many self-reporting INFJs. The disagreement basically amounts to: “Because I haven’t experienced this in myself, it must be false.”
Which only backs up one of my most controversial claims about INFJs – that they are exceedingly selfish and self-centered.
Another widespread rebuttal of self-reporting INFJs is that these articles may apply to immature and unhealthy INFJs, but, they in no way reflect an INFJ that is mature and healthy.
To which I reply, it is precisely because of these various darknesses of INFJ that they become wise, mature, and healthy. I contend that it is the mature INFJs who will most get these articles, and the immature ones won’t because they simply haven’t experienced enough relating. The healthiest INFJs will have experienced the extremes, the heights and the depths.
That has been my observation.
In contradistinction, this isn’t true for ISFJs as a general rule. ISFJs do best to stay in the middle of experience. The wisdom of moderation.
I know I state these things strongly and surely, like there couldn’t possibly be any other possible opinion but mine, but, that is the way I am. That is my tone and my boldness. However, I am also willing to be smashed and humbled by dissenting and compelling testimony to the contrary. But, so far, no such unluck 🙂
Also, in case it isn’t obvious, I have a sense of humor. Ever heard of black humor? It’s there in this very article.
O, the humanity!
Man, it would be almost impossible for me to not get this comment more than I do.
Misogyny? You know what I see when Blake writes about women? I see a dude who has his emotional shit sufficiently together that he can cast a weather eye at ladies and SEE THE TRUTH, which is that women are full of rage, pain, creepy sexual things, and randomized bullshit, because they are human, and that is how all humans are. As a bitchy feminist I find this idea that people can only see women as living soft-focus yogurt commercials bizarre, grim, and alienating. Women are just people. People are wonderful and also terrible. That’s the whole deal. Someone who notices that women are both wonderful and terrible is just noticing their humanity, not oppressing them.
Blake, I donated and am going to hint for a future article, can I ask/suggest something about women and anger? I think this is a giant murky, misunderstood issue for almost all women, I’d be really interested in your thoughts from a Jung/astrology perspective. Maybe something about how anger would manifest (slash be suppressed) in different functions. For myself I see suppressed female anger as underlying a lot of the weird shit that women are stereotypically blamed for (“nagging”, IMO, is just a woman who actually wants to say “What the fuck, Bob, you and I had an agreement that you’d drop this in the mail on the way to work and you didn’t and I’m fucking pissed, get your shit together” but feels that she might as well want to live on the moon) and also as underpinning women disconnecting from their bodies and ultimately their sexual selves. I’d be interested in any insights you’d be willing to share on this!
PS, even though I click the box, I don’t get notifications for comments here. Is anyone else having this problem?
@ See The Motherfucking Elephant:
Thanks for the donation! You can certainly ask/suggest topics for future articles.
How would you like to write an article about women and anger? I’ll post your article on Stellar Maze if you write a good article on that topic. It sounds like you got something to say about it. I’d like to hear your thoughts, but, not in a comment section.
Think about it and when Mercury goes direct again, if you come up with a cool article, I’ll post it with you as a guest author.
As for me writing about women and anger, well, I don’t know. I know that women in general do have a lot of anger, but, I don’t consider myself an expert on the topic by any means. I’d like to hear about it from an intelligent, insightful, and reasonable woman – you.
Give it some thought. I’d be happy to consider what you come up with on the topic as a possible post. Apparently, Stellar Maze is a very women-centric blog, so, come forth with your womanly perspectives 🙂
About the subscribing to comments, I don’t know what the issue is there. If anyone else is having a problem with that, report it to blake@stellarmaze.com. I’ll look into it. Did you check your spam folder in your email? People have reported having a problem subscribing to new articles that come out too. Report that too. And check your spam folders and filters. Your email might be marking it as spam .
@Taddy
Yeah I know what you mean about us not being filthy and all that extremely negative sounding stuff.. I do think though that the language used in the article is the result of an effort to let the Fe mask take its own shape rather than precisely mould it with Ti..
Personally, I’ve always thought too much of myself to submit to a man.. Emotionally or physically.. I’m not lusty and dirty.. In fact I would go so far as to say that I’m pretty asexual.. But I’ve come to realise that’s only because I find no man to be deserving of my love/lust.. I refrain from partaking in the whole rigmarole of introduction, seduction, conjunction and dissolution because I can forsee my eventual disappointment and disgust (all this through no deliberate fault of the man in question.. poor man..why hurt him? ).. And yes, I sure as hell don’t want to be humiliated by others..
When I accept what Blake has to say it’s because I take his choice of words in a more abstract, representative and hypothetical form.. Yes, I would love to be penetrated – emotionally and intellectually and physically – by the same person.. It is the knowledge of the fact that it is close to impossible to find a person who is capable of doing all three simultaneously which makes me, in reality, feel like I’m not capable of desiring such a thing in reality.. I would love to be possessed and owned and yet at the same time be unbound, my own woman.. I would love to feel awe and respect and yet a tenderness and belonging.. You see, if I were ever to meet someone who would not just want me for my Fe, but could satisfy my Ni, my Fi, my Ti, i probably would want to surrender my Se experience to him.. That doesn’t mean I want to get my ass ripped.. But I would love to have a deeply spiritual physical connection which makes me feel.. As though I belong, completely, in the moment, for eternity, but in the moment, without the fear of eventually not wanting to belong..
These desires have the tendency to be dangerous to any potential mate.. I can be the most generous, empathetic, supportive person, as long as I know that’s the role im meant to play.. When it comes to a role which requires me to treat the other as an equal, im going to idealise and romanticise and expect inhuman levels of perfection.. I do not want to destroy them, but my rejection of imperfection will lead to destruction.. That’s why it’s so important to make these desires shallow i guess.. It took a couple of reads for this understanding to crystallise..
As for the depiction of an INFJ woman in love here.. His expression might be subjective but so is desire and interpretation.. Blake’s human too, obviously he has his own perspective and agenda.. And he’s a smart guy.. He knows whose hands he wants to play into.. The tone he’s assumed is that of a man he thinks his perception of an INFJ woman would find complete in a sense.. So it’s unavoidable that many who are not INFJ are going to find it downright offensive and many who are INFJ are going to find it misogynistic based on the subjective experiences they’ve had this far in life.. Especially if they’ve been able to find and give love and respect in a relationship.. It’s got to be taken with a pinch of salt by those who aren’t Blake or veer off the dots of Blake’s outline of an INFJ woman.. And I’m guessing if he wanted to play into the hands of males of any type that he was fascinated by and they happened to want to be completely connected to and consumed by a woman he’d probably create a figure along the lines of a submissive surrendering to a woman with a strap on :p just feels like play based on my perception of all of his articles rather than just this one.. I don’t think he hates women.. He has a soft spot for ENTP men and intense admiration for INTJ men.. But I think he wants to consume or be consumed by INFJ women.. I dunno.. :p
I respect your assertion though.. I can’t speak for someone else who has had a different experience or different expectations 🙂
Meh I should qualify in that I don’t actually think Blake is misogynist. He wouldn’t spent this much time dissecting women and INFJ women in general if he really hates us.
But on the day he wrote that article, he hated us alright 😛
You shouldn’t ‘shit’-chat its no good to speak so carelessly. You are what you say, so…
Reverence. Love in disguise. Use reverent words. For matters of love.
The INFJ I know love animals. An animal can teach you lots! If you’re humble before it.
As an INFJ (Virgo) female I have some insights. This is just for me personally so anyone else’s opinion will likely differ. This is all honest and I’m not just saying what I think people want to hear. Nor what makes me look best. It’s a long read so be warned.
Is is that I don’t respect a man who willingly pleases me? No. It’s just that I can see through people and many times they are only pleasing me for their own selfish needs. They will be nice to get something out of me. They don’t honestly care about me. I’ve had multiple men tell me they love me when they knew little about me (maybe they mistook my charms, calm presence, passionate nature and ‘skills’ for being in love with me). Men I’ve dated less than a few months. Not because I didn’t let them, but because they never really inquired. I do most of the inquiring and many men are happy to just talk about themselves. No offence. Maybe it’s because they don’t always get the chance with chatty women. They come across someone like me and are like “She actually listens to me! She isn’t constantly babbling!” Then they forget communication is a two way street… This ‘love’ ultimately fizzles out. Even if it lasts longer (I’ve had some men tell me they’ve been in love with me for years) it is mainly superficial. Based upon my appearance and demeanour (not to be vain here. But as I’ve been told I’m very attractive, nice and I know how to treat a guy. Supposedly I’m a ‘treat’ to be around and not just in the romantic sense. But as a friend, conversationalist, etc. I’ve had long conversations with random men with whom there was an understanding on both sides there would be no romantic or sexual involvement and they’ve said how refreshing it is to talk to me. It’s because I don’t have expectations of them and I treat them like I’d want to be treated. This may come off as being conceited but this is just the things I have been told. ). I do not equate this to being real love therefore I don’t take them seriously. These are typically the type of guys I see ‘falling in love’ over and over again. They can’t be taken seriously.
I don’t ‘devour’ men hah. It can be hard to leave a relationship when I feel a strong connection with someone. I want to fix things. But I will let it go if I know it’s for the best. If I don’t have feelings for that person anymore or worse yet I resent them, there is no way I am going to make them suffer by being with me in that state. I do not want to be alone for the rest of my life but I am not afraid of it. I will choose to be alone if I don’t feel ready or healthy enough for a relationship. And I do not feel lonely when doing so, because I know it’s for the greater good. Getting myself to a suitable level.
I am not looking for the intense, highly emotional and rocky relationship you seem to think INFJ women are looking for. That is the last thing I want. I want a connection that is deep yet to me that ‘deepness’ is not how you describe it at all. I do not want to drag someone deep down into the dark depths of my soul and bring about a metaphorical death where we completely absorb one another… Uh… No. That is just a tad nuts… No a deep connection does not entail that at all! It all depends on how you interpret it. It’s hard to totally describe it but for me it’s about having a deep understanding (not fully because this is impossible) while still remaining individuals. Having those strong feelings (NOT crazy feelings! Don’t confuse being an emotional person with being a ‘crazy emotional person’. Those are two VERY different things) while being able to feel completely safe and comfortable in their presence. To enjoy each other’s company is pure silence without it being awkward. To feel like you are at home with them. I’m a laid back person. I want a relationship that is mainly easy going and ultimately flows smoothly. I’ve had the rocky relationships. They are too much stress and pain. However I am not stupid or naive to think there can’t be any hurtles. I am perfectly capable of handling bumps in the road. But I do not desire constant fights nor do I have to be dissatisfied to keep my interest. If a guy is constantly picking fights I won’t put up with that. I’ve dated people like that before and believe me it does not turn me on or make me want to stay with them any longer. I have left every single of one of them like that.
Do I want a guy that is a pushover and will let people walk all over him? Of course not. Will I respect him? No. But am I a demanding person? No. It is more how I observe his interactions with OTHER people. If I see he lets his friends,family, coworkers, etc use him and he doesn’t stand up for himself then I lose respect for me. But would I use him? Never. It’s just not how I am. I have far more important things to do with my time.
I do not ask for ‘more more more’… I barely ask for anything. Just someone with whom I can relate to, and them to me, on a level that is comfortable to both of us. I gave up looking for the deepest possible connection or completely understanding a long time ago. To be love is a feeling but is also actions. Most of the time I’m far too concerned with their needs to be bothered with what I want or need. Though I do appreciate and expect that they look out for me as well. This is what is a partnership. If they never do and are selfish then I’m not going to stay with them. Nor would I expect them to stay with me if I were selfish. This comes back to him not being a pushover.
Polygamy is not an option for me. I’ve tried dating (not sleeping with. Dating) multiple people and I just can’t do it. It’s completely empty. I need a real connection. I can only have that with one person at a time (with time to get over them. I don’t jump from relationship to relationship). Maybe some INFJs can be polygamous but it just doesn’t happen for me. I have a limited amount of give a damn which needs to be recharged after each romance I encounter. I can not stretch this between multiple people. Nor will I accept being the third wheel. Yes I have considered dating multiple people to avoid getting too attached or hurt but I know it just isn’t me. I would rather risk getting hurt than do something that goes against who I am. This has nothing to do with ‘society’ blah blah blah. I am not a Christian. I’m an Atheist. Despite what you may think I know myself very well.
I do not feel I am worthless or shitty. I do not desire to be treated like a ‘slut’. I want to be respected. A guy can’t respect me and treat me like a complete slut at the same time. Yes I prefer the male to be more dominant (though I like to be at times) and I can get dirty but it has to be with someone who I have real feelings for. Not anyone will do. I will do ALMOST anything for someone I love as long as it doesn’t involve harming anyone or anything. We both have to be comfortable. I have never been able to have an orgasm without having very strong feelings for the other person. I have even tried to have sex with exes years after we broke up when I was over them emotionally. I could not get off with them because the level of feeling just wasn’t there anymore. I’ve had a few one night stands and they were extremely boring and unfulfilling. Flings were a waste of time too. And it wasn’t just the guys last of skill. I’ve been with some very skillful men. I just didn’t feel anything for them therefore I couldn’t get there. I have had a ‘body orgasm’ before without feeling any sort of pleasure. If this makes sense.
I get bored when a guy goes down on me for too long (though I like going down on him. A lot). I like it, but it rarely gets me off. Maybe it’s because we aren’t sharing in the experience in the same way as having intercourse. Maybe it’s because I’m not a selfish person. In spite of whatever you may think.
Am I highly passionate? Absolutely. Though I save that passion for one person and one place. The bedroom. I don’t readily have outbursts or silly emotional fits. Do I get upset and cry at times? Do I get angry? Do I yell sometimes? Uh yes. I’m human. I’m not going to pretend I’m not. But I typically always have a good reason. I have never once gotten upset without one. But even though I do have a good reason I try my best to control myself. I grew up with a mom that didn’t have control of their emotions and a dad that was very passive. I’m far more like my dad. I know how to control myself. It is usually my reaction to retreat into myself, give myself time and space to think, and then have a calm conversation regarding the issue when I am ready. I have a female INFJ friend who goes full fledged bonkers and just lets everything out when she’s upset. Even if it’s really nothing to get upset over. I’m pretty much the opposite in most cases. I’ve often thought I would be perfect managing people in a disaster type setting. I’ve been in situations where people around me were panicking and I was completely calm.
I am perfectly capable of a healthy long term relationship. My personality type doesn’t make this impossible. It may be harder for me than some other people (I have Aspergers as well) but I can do it. I understand it takes a bit more work on my part than your average person. I am more than willing to do that work. I just need a bit of patience from my partner. And understanding that I am not like everyone else. It takes me more time to open up. But when I give myself to someone they won’t be left wanting. I am extremely loyal, faithful and devoted while still maintaining my own sense of self identity and expecting him to do the same. Suggesting that INFJ’s are only good for short romances, flings, open relationships or being the third wheel with another couple is not only kind of insulting and sad but it is making other people, who do not understand INFJs, think this an acceptable way to treat them. IT IS NOT. This is USING them. The thought another INFJ could fall for someone who will leave them after a couple months because they just so happened to read your blog and fell for it is very unsettling. I want to give people more credit than that of course. But the fact that you seem to want people to believe an INJI female are unsuitable for any deep and meaning relationship and will mislead, manipulate and use their emotions is potentially extremely hurtful and harmful to not only INFJs but their partners with whom they could have a very meaning and lasting relationship. An INFJ can be a great relationship partner or a terrible one. Just like any other type. It all depends on the person. If someone meets an INFJ that fits your description they clearly they shouldn’t get involved (not even as a fling unless you are BOTH very CLEAR you are ok with it. If they want more you will hurt them). But I believe what you describe is the underdeveloped, emotionally immature INFJ. You are really making INFJ women seem like these vile and depraved creatures. I don’t think that is fair. Most INFJs are very individualistic.
damn, i am an female INFJ, diagnosed with PDD-NOS and i can relate to almost everything you said.. the superficial, infatuated “lovers” pleasing you for selfish reasons, not having expectations of them, being willing to fix things and letting go if it’s for the best, not looking for those type of intense and exhausting relationships (been there, not going back) and actually everything else you said. only difference is that i’ve only been in relationships with women.
it’s good to read someone who has the same understanding about love and actually any INFJ woman can have a long term relationship, any type or gender can actually. it might take some patience and understanding (some need more than others), but anyone can get very far if you truly care for one other and have a good mutual understanding.
Oh my goodness. Are you me? Right down to the Aspergers. Word for word. You wrote exactly what I was going to. Seriously girl if you have a blog hook me up 🙂
I like your comment, Jess. I can relate. Thank you. 🙂
Ok, I am an INFJ, taken the test multiple times throughout the years and always the same. My question is this: I am a libra, with a pisces moon, and scorpio rising so how am I, to interpret your description of an infj when you speak of an implied scorpio moon and pisces rising? Curious because i feel some things are spot on but the astrology aspect trips me up. Any clarity would be appreciated.
Your astrology qualifies and emends your innate temperament. So, there are INFJs that are more Scorpionic and there are others that are more Libran and so on.
When I speak of implied astrological positions of a type, that means that that type most resembles those positions. However, a person could be born with their planets in any signs and so forth and still be an INFJ. One’s astrology does not determine their MB type, but, it determines how one will express that type.
I will be going into A LOT more depth on this in the future. I know that right now the hints and allusions that I’m making are somewhat confusing, but, it’s a rather huge and unexplored topic.
More to come 🙂
Hi Blake,
I’m very excited to hear that you will be sharing more of your astrological insights in the future. Astrology has long been one of my primary interests/obsessions, even pre-dating my knowledge of Jungian typology.
I have not yet contributed a great deal to the Stellar Maze, but over the years, I’ve assimilated a vast amount of knowledge relating to many of the topics discussed on this website (including psychological type, astrology and the Enneagram, among other things).
Let me confess upfront that much of this knowledge was acquired because of my INFJ “information addiction”, as you described so accurately in a previous essay:
“For INFJs, what this often amounts to is a fascination with the amount of information available to them at the click of a link. They go into a sort of ecstatic swoon over the vast possibilities that this entails. This is where the illusionary temptation of the tertiary Ti is activated like a motherfucker. And it often has the exact opposite effect in reality than the one INFJs were dreaming that it would have in their fantasy worlds. INFJs dream of knowing everything and being so completely informed in all domains that they are like superhuman encyclopedias of information. The internet offers them this very real prospect. God, has the internet fucked over so many INFJs. Really.”
To compound matters, I have spent the last 30+ years working as a scientist (analytical chemist and forensic scientist) for government laboratories, both in the UK and in New Zealand, where I now live. In other word, I have lived much my life in ways which Blake suggests are far from ideal for most INFJs. Because of this, I can relate to pretty much everything Blake has written about INFJs and our unique struggles.
Fortunately, I discovered the “magic” of my Extraverted Feeling function a number of years ago. I can honestly say that it has literally saved my life on more than one occasion. And that brings me back to my point: I feel that it is past time for me to share what I’ve learned, instead of endlessly pursuing esoteric trivia in a futile attempt to become omniscient!
Here in beautiful Auckland city, I belong to a very lively and active MBTI Interest Group. Through this group, I have had the immense privilege of meeting with, and learning from, some of the world’s leading Type experts (including Linda Berens, Dario Nardi and Jane Kise).
I recently presented a seminar on Introverted Intuition at one of the regular meetings of the group. This seemed to be well received by those present, so I’ve volunteered to present again later in the year (topic yet to be decided).
But I also keenly feel the need to participate more in the Stellar Maze, a place which I honestly believe to be at the cutting edge of Type theory in the 21st century.
OK I’ve rattled on for way too long. so I’ll sign off with this little astrological titbit, for what it’s worth:
I’ve noticed that the birth-charts of dominant Ni types often contain a tight cluster of planets in one part of the chart. For example, my birthchart contains a stellium (conjunction) of four planets (Sun, Mercury, Venus and Mars) in Sagittarius/Capricorn in my 8th/9th houses. I’ve seen similar groupings in the charts of other INFJs and INTJs.
Conversely, I’ve seen virtually the opposite in the charts of some dom-Ne types: a broad spread of planets across many signs and houses.
This seems to correlate with the descriptions of Ni-types as being focussed and convergent perceivers, in contrast to Ne-types being broad generalists .
Stewart… you sound like a very interesting guy. My interest was piqued by you relating so well to my statement on the occult on the INFJ vs. INFP post, and now, come to find out, you’re an accomplished scientist (I happen to be very interested in pursuing forensic science and psychology — at least at the moment) and seemingly very learned. I’ll keep an eye out for your commentary here, and if you ever start your own blog or just compile some writing, I’d love to hear about it.
Funny you should mention stelliums. I have two of them, in opposition. My Venus, Mars, and ascendant are the only outliers.
Thanks for the positive feedback, Undertow.
I studied Chemistry at University, but about halfway through my first degree I became disillusioned by the focus on teaching only the dry, technical details and obscure theoretical aspects of the subject, without any idea what practical value or usefulness was served by all that technobabble. I persevered and completed my first degree with honours, but had absolutely no idea what to do next!
I could have easily drifted into a career in academia (which would have made my mother very happy…), but I had already intuited that this would not suit my innate temperament.
It all came right, though, when I signed on to do a Masters in Analytical Chemistry. Finally, I could see a practical value to my studies, and this reignited my enthusiasm for studying. Even better was the discovery that I had a natural aptitude for investigative work in general (due I suppose to the powerful Ni-Ti combo in INFJs) and also that I could apply my skills to “do some good” in the real world (which satisfied my strong Fe desire to help others).
My Masters degree led to a job in a UK government laboratory as a food scientist, but the first few years of my career were beset by a different set of challenges, which almost caused me to quit science entirely. I eventually succeeded in applying for a forensic scientist position within the same organization, and this was a much better fit for an INFJ scientist:
Ni hunches and freakily accurate insights are brilliant for detective work, Ti supplies the scientific rigour, and Fe is invaluable for crafting informative reports, liaising with clients and (perhaps most surprisingly of all) is my greatest asset for attending Court in person as an expert witness. It isn’t all good news, as forensic work requires incredible precision, accuracy and attention to detail, which places an enormous strain on my inferior Extraverted Sensing function. Still struggle with that one!
In hindsight, I can see where my INFJ personality type led to difficulties both at University (where Introverted Thinking was favoured above all) and in my first job (where I slammed head first into the brick wall of a dastardly ESTJ culture – and it got very messy for a long, long time).
@ Stewart
I would love to hear more about what you have to contribute to the world on typology and astrology. You said you would like to spend more time in the “Maze”. Perhaps Blake would allow guest writers on his site? Shoot it his way, I’m sure he’s already interested. Any insight on your presentation regarding introverted intuition would be well received. 🙂
Thanks, e and undertow. However, this is Blake’s site and I am super concerned to respect that fact. Indeed it is largely because of Blake’s astute observations, witty writing style and intuitive insights on the true nature of INFJs that first drew me into the stellar maze.
I have had my own blogs in the past, on both Livejournal and Typology Central, under the username Apollanaut. I enjoyed writing there, but pulled back when it started to become a bit of an obsession. That darn INFJ Ti tertiary never learns when to set limits, and I have to be very vigilant about my internet usage to avoid drowning in the cookie jar.
So I am basically following Blake’s advice to INFJs, regarding the crucial importance of engaging our auxilary Fe as our primary means of self-expression.
It was my own Fe promptings that led me to start posting here in the first place, and it is also my Fe which I will trust to know when, where and what to post (or when not to).
For now, I feel that is the right approach: putting my thoughts and intuitions out there without excessive structuring or planning. Lord knows I do enough of that in my day job!
For what its worth, I can feel my creative juices stirring at the prospect of being let out to play, so watch this space!
If INFJs can get so much from relationships with ENTPs, then what ENTPs can gain from being with INFJs?
A partner-in-crime.
A sounding board for their crazy schemes.
A loyal friend.
A fountain of knowledge.
Answers to their endless questions.
Someone to explain all the mushy Feeling stuff to them.
A fellow eccentric.
A playmate.
A diplomat to smooth over ENTP collateral damage.
And someone to do the dishes…….
Wait a minute… who’s doing the dishes?
Yeah, you heard right: your average ENTP is even less domestically inclined than an INFJ, so guess who ends up cleaning and tidying? And have you ever seen the amount of sheer chaos a single ENTP leaves in their wake? This is no small thing, believe me!
Okay. You win. But at least, when the kitchen counters are cluttered with tottering filthy dishes, the ENTP will take the INFJ out to pho, cause they both really like to eat, and can only occasionally be bothered to cook.
That’s so true! Fast food delivery works as well.
Yeah, if it was a standoff between an ENTP or INFJ who would do the dishes, the ENTP would prevail. The INFJ would probaly cave-in directly following the ENTP attempting to wash the dishes by flushing them down the toilet.
Yeah, in hindsight, I should have bought stock in Dominos.
So, I don’t know if this is the case with others, curious, but in our INFJ and INFP standoff, the INFJ can hold out far longer and the INFP caves. Hell, even the INTP will lend a hand, sporadically. No, to be fair, the INTP will do what you ask, as long as it is a specific request. Don’t say clean up. Say, do some dishes and take out the trash or bring me your laundry. The ENTP will be glad to bring you their laundry, since you are washing it for them.
Ask the ESFJ to pick up, and reward her with an eventual shopping trip when she ever cleans her room, but don’t make her take the dogs out after dark.
The INTP doesn’t need a reward other than you feed them. In fact, don’t make the mistake of trying rewards, they can live without a lot. And you’ll break your own heart if you even thought about taking away their music.
The INFJ is fine if you don’t notice what specifically she does, so long as you give her her due credit for putting forth effort somewhere. Don’t focus on what she didn’t get around to.
As it happens, I don’t think I’ve ever heard the ENTP’s I know complain about someone else’s messes.
Ha! Hey, now, as an INFJ who expresses affection through domestic servitude (among other things), I can do the dishes! he says, steadfastly ignoring the pile of clean laundry on his bed.
“Domestic servitude” – wonderful! That phrase is so INFJ it made me laugh out loud.
I unwittingly signed up for a lifetime of domestic servitude when I first started dating my ENTP. He had just cooked an awesome meal and I volunteered to do the dishes. My Fe wanted to impress him in return for the great food, so blurted out this little gem before I could engage my internal censor:
“I don’t mind doing the dishes – I actually enjoy it!”
24 years later I am still being reminded of that boast every time I complain about how much the kitchen resembles a warzone following his latest culinary explosion…..
Bwahaha. Yes, I relate. I was in that exact situation and used nearly that exact phrasing to get myself into it with my ex (also an ENTP). I’m glad to hear it’s seemed to work for you — 24 years is a long time! Congrats!
ENTPs really can be ridiculously messy. I have a particularly developed awareness of untidy environments, and she was a bit of a packrat. Me being who I am, I can generally let things go for a week or two (or more, depending on how far I am into my own head), then go through like an especially polite storm and neaten up, while being tidy enough day to day to not make a mess to begin with. That didn’t work out great in our situation. Cleaning up became a daily thing, like having a little kid. I don’t do too well with being ripped out of my head like that constantly. She was a great cook, though. 😛
A lot of it is down to the difference between Ni and Ne. Intuition in general seems to operate at the leading edge of chaos and is usually comfortable with randomness and disorder.
However, my Ni-messiness is mostly confined to my inner world (which is an infinite ocean of tangled entropy) or is carefully concealed from public view (cupboards and drawers stuffed to bursting with books, papers, comic books, collections and who-knows-what-else that I’ve forgotten about).
In contrast, Ne-untidiness is out there for the whole world to see; like the aftermath of a devastating natural disaster or a thermonuclear explosion. It offends my inferior-Se so badly that it either:
a) Shuts down in horror so that I can no longer even see the clutter.
b) Sends me spinning out-of-control into a demented cleaning frenzy.
At times of maximum ENTP-generated chaos, I try to remind myself of the following:
My ENTP’s inner world is governed by the cool logic of Ti and is therefore highly organized and systematic. He is very financially astute and takes care of managing the accounts, paying the bills and investing for the future – all tasks which I detest.
He is a creative and highly inventive cook (just don’t ever expect him to follow a recipe).
His extraversion snaps me out of hermit-mode and maintains contact with our wide circle of friends.
And, as Blake has commented elsewhere in this discussion, ENTPs are completely immune to the dark machinations of the Fi id function (which lurks in the shadows of male INFJs as well as females).
Would an ENTP still be the best long term partner for an INFJ if the emotional compatibility from an astrological sense isn’t known to be the best (Moon in Scorpio INFJ and Moon in Gemini ENTP)?
In a word, no. But, you’d have to look at the general compatibility between the astrological charts as a whole. When I say that ENTP is the best partner for INFJ, I am speaking very generally, all things being equal.
Moon compatibility in astrology indicates how well the individuals in question would cohabitate together. Now, ENTP and INFJ don’t have this sort of compatibility to start with, which is actually good and one of the reasons that I think ENTP is such an ideal partner for an INFJ – because the ENTP will never let the INFJ get too close to them emotionally and thus it circumvents many of the problems of the INFJ id via the implied Scorpio Moon, which I’ve written about most particularly in this article.
So, if the INFJ has an actual Scorpio Moon, in addition to the implied Scorpio Moon, and the ENTP has a Gemini Moon, in addition to their implied Libra Moon that would only serve to amplify this dynamic of the alien emotional dynamic between these two types. From the INFJ point-of-view, this general dynamic can be exciting because it tends to frustrate their desire to get a partner under lock and key emotionally. INFJs innately respect those that don’t need them, yet, who are interested enough in the INFJ to come back to them from time to time.
I guess what I’m saying is that INFJs shouldn’t cohabitate with partners. INFJs like their solitude and space. They can only come to loathe those who steal this away from them on a daily basis and in the most mundane way of mutual sharing of domestic responsibilities.
So, let the ENTP be the bird that they are. They’ll come back to you if their is something there. And if they don’t, then, it’s for the best.
ENTPs need their freedom, maybe moreso than any other type. Certainly, the wrong approach in relating to them would be to force them into some kind of emotional bondage. ENTP is the type that is least capable of being emotionally imprisoned by anyone.
“INFJs like their solitude and space. They can only come to loathe those who steal this away from them on a daily basis and in the most mundane way of mutual sharing of domestic responsibilities.”
This! This right here! Truer words have never been spoken – the hell that is daily domestic responsibilities is the worst. Leave me to attend to greater things, like my thoughts or rich inner world as I could care less about how the mundane daily things are done.
Dear Blake, thank you for what you have written about ENTPs and INFJs. I am an INFJ (Scorpio/Sagittarius cusp) woman in her mid 30’s who is in a long term relationship with an INTJ (Aquarius). I have been interested in an ENTP/INTP (Leo) man for the past 4 years and there is acknowledged mutual attraction. Nothing has happened to date because of choices I have made and the fact that the ENTP/INTP man has been a gentleman and respects my long term partner. I cannot stop thinking about this guy, who is unlike any other person I have known, and that way that we connect, challenge and develop one another. Recently, my long term partner and I came to an agreement to have some flexibility in who else we see. So, next week I am going to arrange to meet the ENTP/INTP man to let him know that the opportunity is there. I am scared but I know that I cannot progress unless I give this a try. I agree wholeheartedly with what you have written and think it would be wonderful if you could describe what happens next for the INFJ woman once she explores herself and is with more than one lover. If you have a few points of advice for me it would be most welcome – your words would soothe me a little in this intense situation I find myself in!
My advice would be to explore and see what happens.
And then come back here and report 🙂
Hi Blake, I thought I’d let you know what happened 3 years ago to me, the female INFJ, who made the above comment after reading your article. When the man in question and I sat down to have a chat quite frankly about ourselves, our past learnings and our uncertainty for the future, a couple of things I found quite interesting happened. Firstly, he candidly told me he was actually an INTP who had often found himself in relationships where he had eventually become abused by his female partners, in his words possibly because of his lack of ability to provide for a woman’s emotional needs, and that he recognised in himself a pattern to be attracted to women who had the capability of dominating him and abusing him. He said that his connection to the works of Aurelius had gotten him through some dark times. When he confided this in me, I was thinking that I, myself, had a tendency to challenge men first intellectually, uncover their vulnerabilities, devour them emotionally, and seek to enjoy a matched intensitity … and when I have not found this in long-term relationships I have become resentful and teetering on being abusive. Although I didn’t verbalise this, I was watching him look at me and I believe that he had figured this out about me. Getting close to someone over a number of years I’d noticed that we had both started looking into each other’s left eye while talking to each other, producing a hypnotic, other-worldly state (I read this and found it to be insightful about this phenomenon: http://www.scienceofsoulmates.com/The_power_of_the_left_eye.htm). I felt quite sorry that he had experienced what he had, but felt like he was giving me a gift with these revelations in that it made me reflect in a very hard manner on my own behaviours. I knew that with him being an INTP, and having had those experiences, me giving the green light to a sexual encounter was never going to work … it would pretty much result in the dynamic of the pattern of attraction he had identified. It was with a lot of sadness on my part that I realised it would be the wrong thing to try to deepen the relationship, so I stopped contacting him and didn’t return his contact … a pity as I found him to be a beautiful creature and brilliant mind. Yes, life is short, but there is a lot to be learned (about oneself and others), there is right timing, and there is also doing what is deemed the right thing to do in a particular situation. Now, if only he had been an ENTP (who would have embraced the chaos and been able to match and modulate the intensity) that would have been another matter! Since that time there have been 3 men that have appeared in my life, all very different – an ISFJ who is masculine and exudes sexuality but is what I find to be annoyingly aloof and passive-aggressive, an INFP who is selflessly devoted to the community to the point where he cannot look after himself and his ‘home fires’, and a much older INFJ man who continues to make advances even though he knows I am not attracted to him though I enjoy our commonalities as fellow INFJs. I’m not sure what the future holds for me, but Blake if you’ve got any offerings from your observations of INFJ women who have gained a lot of experience and maturity in the area, who have become empowered and fulfilled and shaken off the destructive forces of their nature, I’d love to hear about it. And I’m not sure if you have done so yet, but can you PLEASE talk about your own personality and personality type and how you have come to the point where you have been able to share your written work? I am saying this genuinely. Happy to continue sharing over the years as others have done. xox
Mmm, what do you want to know?
Hi Blake, this is what I’d like to know but I’m respectful if you’d rather not answer: From an INFJ (enneagram type 5) female perspective, I understand that there is a market in INFJ’s and money to be made in providing them a sense of understanding. And I’ll give it to you Blake, you do an excellent job with your writings and other work … they’ve helped me and no doubt many other people. You deserve to be compensated fairly and encouraged to go further in what you do.
At the end of the day, it’s alright if you don’t want to provide your readers an understanding of where you’re coming from but it’s pretty clear your interest in INFJs is not just for the money.
Being who I am, if someone is giving really good advice I’d like to know a bit more about them, how they tick, and how they’ve come to their conclusions. If you are a person who has been able to, through your reported 15 years of research, understand INFJs and other personality types so well, and provide suggestions that make people function better, I think the only way you can go further and get the sort of information you’re after from people is to divulge a little about yourself.
I’m hoping your wish to keep your own personality and background on your personal story private is more out of being coy to generate interest, and to be abstract for the purposes of creativity and to have a jolly good laugh at it all, and that it’s not out of any type of embarrassment about yourself and your circumstances or fear that someone is going to try to shame you? I’m not sure if you are in a relationship or have kids, or if you’ve got what you want in different spheres of life, but I think a lot of people can see that you’re a person who has a lot to give and receive.
I don’t really like using the internet or social media and I use it selectively. I think it’s true that the greatest bounds to be made is in “real life” with other flesh and blood people. This forum is good for working through things that come up in one’s psychology. I hope you’ve got some good people and mentors with you Blake.
Hmm….I can see where you’re coming from Aurora. Blake can do whatever he wants with this site, as it’s his project, but I do wonder if he could get more money from people if he revealed a little bit more about himself. Personally, I’m fine with how it is now, but the average person is probably less willing to give what they have if lack of transparency is involved.
Having said that, his secretiveness makes this place a very unique experience. It tends to attract a certain set of lost people…you know what I mean? Very nice artistic effect. It’s one reason why I love this place.
But actually, I think he has revealed quite a bit about himself in bits and pieces around this website and on the forum. In some places, I think he has kinda spelled some stuff out. I won’t mention anything out of respect for Blake, but if we read and ponder very carefully, we can piece everything together and get a rough idea.
I’d be curious to see Blake’s response to your post. 😀
Anyways, is this some Jesus Christ shit? All those who will understand will come to me? A Bob Dylan philosophy? I speculate that’s how this place operates. It’s not about Blake explaining himself to make people go to him. When the time is right, people will find him. And maybe even understand him or figure him out in due time.
So it attracts only a certain group of people at any given time. And I guess that’s what this dude wants? I don’t know. (Sorry Blake, hope I’m not offending you or anything. It’s just fun to speculate about you! :D)
So yeah…this place really does seem like some religious sect. (Not that I have a problem with it!) Clandestine, cult feel to this place. As far as my knowledge of astrology goes, I get a 12th house feeling to this place….A 6th-12th house axis thing. Clandestine, secretive, the outcasts, psychological mysteries, people in need, serving others, “it’s not about me, it’s about serving you” thing…Umm…Jeezus….I don’t know, something like that.
Thanks for your insight! Everything makes sense to me except for the opening sentence. Sounds like it’s “in a word, yes” based on what you supported it with? I am open to being wrong. Why does this relationship work from the ENTP perspective…or how do they experience the relationship?
So then by the same logic of ENTPs lacking the emotional capacity or willingness due to the role their Fi plays, wouldn’t that make ESTPs just as choicey? ESTPs hold Fi in the same place ENTPs do. Plus ESTPs are inherently more physical and aggressive, due to dominant Se which is more attractive than physically incompetent dominant Ne to an INFJ. INFJs usually bypass their own Ne, deeming it superfluous and annoying. It seems more likely that Se would satisfy an INFJs base desires, as you described, more than Ne would. I guess my question is: why ENTPs over ESTPs for an INFJ?
Yes, an ESTP would satisfy an INFJ’s base desires more than an ENTP, but I wasn’t suggesting that the ENTP was the perfect partner for INFJ because they would satisfy their base desires. It is more that in a relationship with an ENTP these difficult id dynamics that INFJs have will become a non-issue. That isn’t the case with an ESTP relationship because Se is indirectly linked to the INFJ id dynamic of Fi (ISFP).
The ENTP/INFJ relationship takes the INFJ into a sphere that perfectly nullifies the poisonous of their nature without having to work on it directly. It just becomes easy. What a concept!
What Blake said.
Before I met my long-term (24 years!) ENTP partner, I was mainly attracted to ESTP guys.
Being with physically attractive and assertive ESTPs was super exciting at first, but the Se flash and glamour soon wore off and the relationships fizzled very quickly. Shortly before I met my current partner, I had amicably broken up with a handsome, well-dressed (and rich!) French guy. He treated me very kindly and respectfully, and in return I was very fond of him, yet it still was not sufficient for the long-term partnership needs of an INFJ.
Exactly. Se is highly exciting to INFJ, but, unstable. That’s how inferior functions work: exciting, unstable, extremes.
And if you need or want to experience that, I say go for it. It takes what it takes.
But, if an INFJ were looking for that theoretically perfect relationship, ENTP it would be.
However, many INFJs aren’t looking for perfection, they are looking for excitement, flash, desire, immediacy, drama, despair, self-loathing, recrimination, vengeance, masochism, and so on.
ENTP is kind of beyond all that. And so when an INFJ has had their fill of the aforementioned things (if that happens), the ENTP might come on to their radar in a rather sudden, agreeable, and unforeseen way as the perfect solution that was hitherto unconsidered. At least seriously considered. INFJs often think they want this deep dark sensual deep-diving neverending foray into another soul, but, in reality, this can never be satisfied by any mere mortal. It always leads to further cravings, further desperations, further hungers that seemingly can never be satisfied.
Kind of like the vampire mythology actually. Vampires are immortal, undead, and must feed to stay undead, but, vampires are often lonely, isolated, sensitive, and well, they just feel and see a lot. They been around for aeons. Old souls.
Vampires have a hunger and desire that can’t be satisfied.
And ENTPs won’t satisfy it.
But, they will show the vampire something that they hadn’t expected in their aeon-long melancholy.
You know when you are feeling really down and you are at the floor of the world and beneath. Nothing possibly seems like it could work in all of human existence. It’s just all wrong and base and abysmal. And you are part of it. And you condemn yourself as well as all humanity.
Then all of a sudden the dumbest thing comes before your viewscreen and makes you explode in a gust of laughter. Something that could not have been accounted for in all those long and melancholic analyses. Something not just dumb, but, perfect. Outside of it all somehow. Not affected. Not in your equation of woe.
That’s ENTP.
ENTP is The Fool archetype. The zero. Infinite space.
In a sense, they are outside of all existence. And since INFJs have an existential dilemma as their core issue (the Ni-Se axis), ENTPs will jollily affirm to INFJ that they don’t exist, nothing exists, and so what?
Let’s party!
Blake you are starting to freak me out a little – it’s like you were there watching my life!
I became fascinated by vampire mythology long before it became fashionable. We’re talking Hammer House of Horror movies from the 70’s (check out “Vampire Circus” and “Twins of Evil”).
I used to imagine what it would be like to be a vampire – even thinking about it now makes my canine teeth tingle like they are about to extend for a bite!
Later I devoured(!) Anne Rice’s vampire books when they were first published.
(BTW did you know that she also wrote a quartet of extremely kinky S/M themed “Sleeping Beauty” novels under the pseudonym A. N. Roquelaure?)
I have always had a vivid and intricate internal life running in parallel with my “real world” life, which seemed rather tame and dull in comparison. I imagine this is a common experience for INFJs.
It took a long time for me to realise that my inner imagined life was bleeding over into the outer world to an unhealthy degree; and that this was contributing to the extreme angst and dramatic highs and lows I suffered in my 20’s.
It all came to a head when I was 29 (at the time of the first Saturn return, natch!). I was struggling both in my job (working in an unhealthy Te-dominated environment) and at home. I co-owned an apartment in London with a woman who was one of my oldest friends, but she later suffered some kind of breakdown and turned into a nasty manipulative and needy creature. She stealthily enmeshed me in a web of co-dependent deceit and was bleeding me dry both emotionally and financially. I felt very isolated and lonely but could not see a way out until I suffered a nervous breakdown under the intense strain.
My loving parents (who lived locally) asked me to stay with them for a couple of weeks while I recovered. Dad is a sensitive INFP who had also struggled with similar issues in his youth. He had quite a library of psychological and other self-help books which I had not paid much attention to before, but now they helped me begin to see the unhealthy patterns in my own life which had led to my breakdown.
I am quite a resilient and optimistic soul, so I soon bounced back, determined to make some changes and move forward with my life. I successfully applied for a forensic scientist position at work, which turned out to be a fantastic career choice for me. I guess my external presentation must also have shifted, because it was at this time that an ENTP trickster from New Zealand swept into my life like a hurricane on steroids.
There was still more than enough drama and excitement to keep me occupied, but with his help I escaped the clutches of my sick friend and embarked on a new series of adventures, which I never would have predicted.
And that last point is another crucial factor in INFJ/ENTP relationships. Both types are naturally adept at intuitively reading other people and accurately predicting how others are likely to behave. This makes relationships a huge challenge, since what we really need is to be surprised and challenged by our partners.
It just so happens that ENTPs are utterly immune to INFJ intuitive predictions, and conversely INFJs are perplexingly invisible to an ENTP’s formidable intuitive-analytical abilities. In other words, neither type can reliably read the other or predict what they are going to do next. This keeps the relationship fresh, fluid and constantly intriguing; even after many, many years.
What more could either type ask for?
Blake,
At times I find your perspective and style of writing if not somewhat informative, at least somewhat interesting enough to reflect on. No matter what I take away from it, I appreciate your form of art.
However, for the sake and on behalf of other INFJs out there, I feel compelled to reproach not only the inflammatory approach of writing you on occasion are wont to take, but the derogatory, biased sentiments expressed therein as truths.
While aware that some of your readers identify with this article, it is in my humble opinion that, people may IN GENERAL relate to what you have written, predefined personality type or no.
Further, INFJs that engage in these thoughts/activities/behaviors have what would be commonly characterized as “daddy issues” and are more than likely unbalanced INFJs–if that’s what they even are–let’s be real here.
A more appropriate name to your piece:
My Twisted View On Supposed INFJ Women (though I never reference who in particular because it would be discovered how truly biased this article REALLY is) (Not to mention: I’m too cowardly or wannabe “mystique like” to disclose my INFJ personality type (you know, the OTHER INFJ guy in the article)
Oh, darn, there goes my Ni, running away from me again..
Hmm, I guess that title is too long, isn’t it?
Kind regards,
-INFJ, keeping it real (under the cowardly armor of anonymity)
So, are all types with an auxiliary Fe in this conundrum? Do they also have this split of wanting/needing complete fusion with another one soulmate while also wanting to fuck anything that moves?
Will other Fe activities satisfy us instead so we may fit in with the current societal norm of family?
There are only two types with Fe auxiliary – INFJ and ISFJ. No, the ISFJ is not like this article describes. Well, yes, they are in some ways. Read my article ISFJ, The Jewish Type to get a feel for how I see them in this Fi id light. The other NF types would have more in common you described. The concept of a “soulmate” is particularly relevant to NF types.
Fe is not about fitting in with societal norms for INFJs. It is more about expressing who they are – through writing, speaking, painting, playing, vibrating, etc.
Yes, they need to do this Fe activity to get out of the dynamic described in this article. But, it is not so much about fitting in with current social norms. It is more about fitting in with themselves and honoring themselves, however grungy that self might turn out to be.
Well, I read your article. And I read the first comment of a person who understood that the point of article is that the INFJ women actually want to be violated and stuff, but I disagree with that. I understand what you meant, and that surely wasn’t the point. But excuse us, we like to be judging sometimes. Anyway, I really had a need to write a comment.
So, some INFJ’s may get offended, but you described us really well with your a little bit sharp tongue. We are sensitive, we often don’t feel understood, we give all the love we have, but we don’t always get it in return, so we have need to prove to other’s and ourselves that we are worth it. So yes, we do get selfish, we do get tired of men who give us everything. We want someone as dominant as us. We need someone strong and manipulative as us. We don’t want less. We get bored, cause we seek for deep stuff and we don’t want ordinary. We want intense feelings, intense sex, everything on a much deeper level. I also agree with you a lot on this part, I quote:
“But, she won’t let on that she is really like this. The guy has to make the hard moves and make this side of her come out. On a conscious level, she is liable to maintain a certain dignity and exemption from all of this. To her more secret self, she longs to be penetrated like the hard mystery that she is. ” But we can’t show this to just anyone, we have to be sure we are respected by that person, so that even when we act “submissive”, we are deep down dominant.
Yes, we seem all caring and wonderful, but seems like INFJ’s often forget that we are very judging. So everything we do, we do for ourselves. Even helping others, so that we will feel good.
I could write on forever, but I will stop here. Anyway, thank you for your honesty.
INFJ scorpio woman writting here. 🙂
Yes! If we really think about it, the use of this word feels very intentional and strategic. It’s meant to evoke the intense, visceral, and negative reaction that echoes INFJ Fi id emotional nature.
The word “violated” could have just as easily have been replaced with “overtaken”, “overpowered”, “out-willed”…etc. But it was chosen for a particular reason, not just for shock value.
At first, it feels mortifying to be described so aptly, but then this lovely feeling of being understood and cynical laughter swoops in. I’m trying to get to a place where I laugh lightheartedly at this.
I agree with you on the quote you picked out. I remember in college, after my first love (an ESTP who would fuck me deliciously gooood) broke up with me, I dabbled in casual sex, and I kept on telling the guys that I wanted to be “owned” sexually, and they were like “Yeah, baby. I can definitely do that for you.” BULL-fucking-SHIT. Before the words even left their mouth, I knew I didn’t believe that they could dominate me the way I needed to be.
Yes, we help others so that we feel good. Is that selfish? Yes. Is it a case of “don’t trust the right thing done for the wrong reason”? I’m not sure, what do you think?
“I kept on telling the guys that I wanted to be “owned” sexually, and they were like “Yeah, baby. I can definitely do that for you.” BULL-fucking-SHIT. Before the words even left their mouth, I knew I didn’t believe that they could dominate me the way I needed to be.”
The woooooooooooorst. The worst.
One of the most baffling things to me about the way other people see the world is how many people feel that the central challenge of long-term monogamy is being faithful to the person you’ve promised to be faithful to. I just don’t understand that. I’m not pretending. I just don’t get it. Like – what? It’s difficult to avoid getting entangled with men who are only mildly attractive to me to begin with and are sexually completely disappointing? But why? But why would that be hard? It’s about as hard as avoiding eating one of your least favorite bland meals. (No judgment of anyone who is non-monogamous.)
Blake has written in his recent INFJ-INFP posts that INFJ type people tend to be most distant from those closest to them. It’s dismaying but probably true to contemplate this as, also, a sexual problem. I feel like the primary issue for an INFJ person is unlikely to be “monogamy is hard, because it’s so exciting, sexy, and briefly fulfilling to connect with a variety of new humans”, it’s only ever going to be how on earth you can be engaged enough to be fully present to begin with.
YEAH! Yeah, how hard is it to not fuck someone who’s not gonna do it for you anyway?
In fairness, that feels like a very female-based principle of sex. I don’t feel proud to say that my (repeatedly very disappointing) foray into casual sex was spurred at first by curiosity, which was innocuous. But I kept doing it even after I had already arrived at the conclusion that this was never gonna be satisfactory, because it wasn’t based in emotional exchange, even the guys who were going through the motions by being generally affectionate
I think I kept doing it because I felt like there was something wrong with me if I didn’t push past this and get to the point where I enjoyed sex for its own physical sake. Like I was gonna feel incredible empowered once I got there, because we’ve been told in this day and age that women can fuck like men. And I agree with that insofar that we have the RIGHT to fuck on our own terms, but if you’re a “feminine-energy” woman, it’s not gonna do you good emotionally, on the whole (or do anything for you physically, as we agreed) and if for some reason it does do something for you physically, and the guy you’re fucking is never gonna think of you as relationship material, then you’re fucked (so to speak) because that feminine women bond through pleasurable sex, aka the orgasm. You give a feminine energy woman an orgasm, and she will more than likely become attached or bonded to you
I think there is most definitely a type of women who can fuck with impunity, and those are women who are masculine energy. I believe that feminine and masculine energy do not have to correspond to physical gender
Yes! I think a lot of young women get the message that sex is supposed to be profoundly physically awesome. In the abstract I’m all for it, everybody should do whatever they want! In practice I think a lot of young women do struggle with “either the sex is terrible and dull and WHO CARES” vs “the sex is extremely exciting but now you’re emotionally involved”. I think in reality a lot of men also struggle with this, though – it’s just that people are socialized so differently, many men approach sex as an activity where they get to do whatever they want and get to be satisfied in the ways they want, and many women have been trained to see sex as an event where you sort of hope you get anything you want but there’s not much you can do about it if not. That is, if young ladies thought sex was basically like, you go somewhere with a man you find super hot and then he is moderately passive and extremely eager to please you and provide you pleasure, he is your sexual toy, and you do what you want and tell him to do what you want and expect that he will give it to you, and the tempo of sex proceeds exactly as you prefer, and it’s over whenever you’re done with it… you know, I think you’d see a lot more young women enthusiastically embracing casual sex. Because they would actually be extracting physical pleasure from the event instead of just being buffeted by the winds of terrible sex.
(I often think of the opening scene of BRIDESMAIDS, where your heroine is having sex with Don Draper, and the sex is terrible! He’s terrible at sex! And he briefly slows down and she’s like “Yes! I like slow. Slow is very good.” and he grossly sex-smirks and says “I like it fast!” and starts with the staccato, unpredictable, horror thrusting. THAT IS ALL OF SEX, it’s like trying to have a good time while someone is a-rhythmically jostling you on an escalator and making sex noises in your face.)
I never dabbled in casual sex because I guessed from my extensive and eventually very disappointed experience with casual making out that I was going to be disappointed by the fumbling and the – ugh. Just, WHY? I went through a period of exploring the edges of BDSM culture, it seemed like a possible solution or way to meet the kind of men I was interested in. But then I realized that BDSM culture is mostly people saying “I am very sexually dominant” and me seeing them as LARPers who were just as unlikely to deliver what I wanted as the fumbling doofuses I was trying to avoid, except now they would be basically deep Renaissance Faire nerds.
Ugh.
I would agree that men struggle with it too.
Just how I mentioned that women can be either feminine or masculine energy, so too can men. I think the men that grow attached from casual sex are either feminine energy men that get the message from society that they are weird, and that they must suppress the fact that they are more-so feeling oriented. So they end up feeling really conflicted over the fact that they’ve grown attached from the casual sex, because society had sold them on the “fact” that they were gonna be supposedly immune from feeling bonded through sex.
Alternatively, I feel that masculine energy men grow attached from sex when they are with a woman who puts her needs first during the exchange of casual sex, the woman that has a genuine attitude of “no fucker, I’m gonna get my kicks first” and is not necessarily selfish, but self-centered about it. She has required to give to her first, and that is like fucking catnip to a masculine energy man who is not a narcissist.
I’ve read a lot about relating in the romantic sense. If something’s gonna work, you need complementarity. Everyone is, and deserves to be a whole person, and that includes us having both traits that are “masculine” and “feminine” in energy.
But as far as romantic relationships, one would need to pick a primary role for oneself. You can negotiate certain things, like for example, I’m a feminine energy woman but I’m nerdy and I really like number. In a lifelong partnership, I would be the one that plans our finances.
The masculine principle of relating is, “I think ______, I want ________.”
The feminine principle of relating, as a response to a masculine energy person who has made the above statement first, is “I feel ________, I don’t want ________(or if her wants are in alignment with the masculine): I would like that.”
Example:
Masculine says “I think you’re cute, I’d like to take you out on a date.”
Feminine responds: “I feel attracted to you too/that would feel good, I would like that.”
OR “I’m sorry, I don’t feel an attraction, I wouldn’t want to (I don’t want to) go on a date.”
Masculine: Thinker, the Wanter, Pursuer, Initiator, Doer (Action-oriented), Problem-Solver, Giver, Generous, Selfless
Feminine: Feeler, the Wanted, Pursued, Responder to the Initiator, Experiencer (Process-oriented), Communicator of the fact that there’s an issue (something that makes the feminine feel bad/uncomfortable/pain, something the feminine doesn’t want), Receiver, Appreciative of Generosity, Self-Centered
Masculine falls in love when they are required (not demanded) to give first, and positively reinforced when they receive affection, appreciation, and respect in response to their initiative
Feminine becomes attached/bonded by receiving what makes them feel good from the masculine, or when the masculine troubleshoots how to make the feminine feel good when she is feeling pain; she gives back (aka is self-centered, not selfish) to the masculine, but always less than the masculine has given
There is much more that can be said on the topic, but that’s what I’ll share for now haha
Wow the empowered feminazis come here too. Hookywooky. I mean, spooky
Any time a dude uses “feminazi”, instead of whatever I guess you are supposed to think (“oh no, he doesn’t think I’m an okay woman! I better try harder to be “nice”!” or whatever the fuck) women actually just think “Now there goes a man who is draped in flags he desperately hopes you don’t notice, all proclaiming his fear of female rejection and his even deeper fears of inadequacy as a man”.
So I never really understand why men think this is a good insult.
Gifted that to the blogger who vilified this. And I would sin again. Are you the doomed blogger?
I’m the foremost striving for a world when women do not trim axils or haunches. Your idea of becoming nicer and deceptive aint good. Which is basically the blogger did: a vicious will of twarting this and stating women are nicer than this and immaculate. That’s not freedom, but machismo. Selling the woman as a nice product, delicated, it’s certainly selling the idea of weakness. Ifnj woman is not as the blogger said.
And I got drapes; just the kind of drape you cannot track back.
How do you know so much about INFJs? What are you? You have to be an INFJ. Either that or an alien
oh hell. I’ve been with a Gemini/INFJ woman for almost 4 years. She’s much younger than me. The 1st 3 years were basically carnal wrapped in “love”. We have lived together for the last year and I am now trying to figure out what to do with this girl. As an EFNP I am at a cross-roads. I either play hard, get devoured or move on down the road.
I cant say in my life that I have the experience to justify anything you say about INFJ women as a whole. I can tell you that you described her to a T.
I’m no saint, so I want to believe I have the ability to tolerate her and have my own desires met with a lot of compromise. It seems it could be the best of both worlds but at what price.
You have gotten my attention needless to say.
Hi Blake, I recently subscribed to your website because I was desperate for a personalized slice (or slices) of your godly wisdom. Looking forward to it. Anyway, I read this article a while back and was simultaneously satisfied and horrified by its evident accuracy. I don’t know if I ever could have figured out for myself that my insatiable need for intimacy would likely leave me perpetually dissatisfied. But what I read rang painfully true; the sense of having a man at my whim and fully accepting of me leaves me regretfully turned off, while the perceived uncertainty around his complete acceptance of me keeps me restlessly obsessed and in love. With full respect… I lose respect. Essentially, there has to be an element of uncertainty.
I also don’t want to believe that the Fi id makes INFJ’s so… toxic. Is it really immutable?
In your proceeding article (Pickle of her path) you wrote about how polyamory isn’t a bad idea for INFJ’s. However, that instinctively sounds like it wouldn’t work to me. It’s just goes against how I think I’m hard-wired. I guess that what I’m asking is, what fulfillment would this ultimately lead to in the end? Wouldn’t it cause more confusion than relief? Isn’t the ideal for us just to have THE one? How to handle two? Am I naive?
I suggested that polyamory might be an option for the dynamic that I had described for INFJ women in relationship. However, it may not be the greatest alternative to their dilemma (as described by me). Don’t take it as the word of god or written in stone or something.
It may work, it may not.
If you aren’t drawn to that avenue, then, don’t explore it. If you’re on the fence, give it a shot. Maybe it will be just the thing.
Also, I wasn’t necessarily suggesting that INFJ women (or men for that matter), pursue polyamory the way it is popularly practiced. INFJs are complex people and rarely find ready-made solutions and paths to work out of the box for them.
More, I was saying that instead of focusing exclusively on one romantic prospect, which can be deadly in emotional dynamics to an INFJ, to consider lightening up a bit and seeing if you can get your needs met from multiple persons in this respect.
I think INFJs can get too intense emotionally because of the Western Romantic ideal of monastic relationships with that one special someone.
Yes, INFJs deeply crave that deep connection. But, it is fraught with all sorts of potential pitfalls for them. They want to extract so much juice from that romantic/sexual relationship that it takes a hero to fulfill it.
In short, intimate relationships are a minefield for INFJs, in part because of the societal expectations and conditioning that is setup for these type of relationships and in part because INFJs want more than anyone can give them on this level.
As I have said throughout my INFJ articles, the best bet (that i know of) if for them to extensivize this emotional neediness and intensity and spread it over wider arcs.
Polyamory is implied in that.
So is networking – expanding your networks.
It basically has to do with turning Fi into Fe. Spread the love. Don’t concentrate it all into one area, one person, etc. That is a death knell for INFJ. It doesn’t work for them.
And it seems like it would. Hence, the torture.
So, I don’t know, be less deep. Want less from one person. Get what you can from those who are available. Because if you don’t and you wait around for that perfect soul mate type person – you are going to be less experienced when they come along. And meanwhile, your emotional life will be lived out alone.
I am of the opinion that INFJs need to loosen up and drop some of their intensity and depth and just join the party.
This will be challenging for them, but, they may be surprised at the lightness and joy when they drop some of this sacred and holy attitude towards relating.
The world is profane. Join in and get some.
Get involved and get left behind. Get your heart broken by two people. Three people. Four. Now, you are getting closer to that book you want to write.
I mean, if nothing else, INFJs need that heartbreak and intense relationship experience to have fuel and experience to draw from for their creative and expressive endeavors.
Why deny yourself a greater share of that fuel?
So…..I’m an INFJ????? Because all of what you said Blake, expresses my conundrum. I have recently started speaking with two other men other than my husband. Damn girl. Well, yea, I needed it. There is no lying. Everyone knows what’s going on. It fun and flirty and light. Just what I need. There are no false hopes our promises. OH, also this all online. One lives in SC and the other lives in Germany – Ya. Right now, this is perfect for me. Perfect. Find what works. Find what makes you feel wonderful. Talking to these men has made me realize a few things. One of them being, I need to express myself somehow. I’m quiet and conforming most of the time. What I need is to break the fuck out! One of the guys has a blog in which he verbally shares his poetry and short stories. I had no idea there was an avenue for this! (Pitiful millennial over here). I will be creating a blog, myself, where I VERBALLY share anything I want. Poetry, stories, thoughts…magic. I couldn’t be happier. By the way, if anyone is interested, I’ve consulted with Blake a few times now, and he has an interesting but effective counseling technique. I greatly recommend speaking with him.
Wow, typos.
@Blake: YOU SOUND LIKE MY BEST FRIEND. Not the “you put too much pressure on the soulmate person” bit but the spread the love shit. I wish I could think like this. I just feel too undesireable and weird for this world. Then again, I am tired of not having sex. HMMMMM
Blake, this is many, many, MANY moons after the fact, but let me just say….
You are an MBTI and astrology genius – two things I never even considered marrying together.
I would like to let you know how REFRESHING it is to be (correctly) perceived as something other than the mysterious, alluring, beautiful, intuitive, font of undying compassionate understanding, etc. that so many types naïve of the INFJ nature seem to perceive us as and take for granted.
We are dark! We are tortured! We like being dark and tortured even though we are tortured by being dark and tortured, but not being dark and tortured would be unbearably dull! And yes, I’m generalizing here. This may not resonate with everyone, and certainly, not everything in your article resonates with me in a fully expressed way in my life – but I definitely “get” all of it and see how it’s relevant. You’ve really spoken to the “hidden” aspects of the 12th house that are implicit, and I applaud that – apparently most people don’t want to hash out that dark shit, so a big thank you for keeping it really, well, real.
This is serious balm for every time new agey friends are gushing about their enneagram types, or their astro charts, etc., and mine is some treasure trove of mine-trap laden, spiritual garbage dumping no one wants to gush or even hear about (which I find kind of fitting and enjoyable when I’m not letting it bum me out, because subverted expectations! Your comment about vanilla type 3 people was received and much chuckling did ensue, thank you, ha).
I find that a lot of these feelings are experienced on plural levels – this and also that, mutual exclusivity need not apply. I will love and respect and admire on one level, and also feel disdainful on another. I may even recognize that my feelings of disdain are unfair and suppress them heavily – but I’m sure it comes across sometimes, and yes, I can assuage it with the equally true and valid expression of the feelings I consciously share – you know, the angelic mindfuck that is not a lie so much as a half-truth.
I feel like the sacred and the profane are never very far from each other in my INFJ experience of the world – I like the wholeness, the unity, the rightness of the one with the other, even though the fashion in which it plays out really can be perverse and even punitive.
Anyway, I’m kind of rambling all over the place. I just wanted to say I love your writing and the insights you provide, and I’ve been devouring your work since discovering it. Speaking as an INFJ woman here – an unreachable other plumbing my depths with unapologetic honesty?
Haha. Ooh, it’s killer. 🙂
Glad you love it!
I don’t know how I found you, but this is the third article in
And?
Thank you for the message that you’ve repeated throughout this site–that standard western upbringing and culture may not work for the complexities of an INFJ, but that if they use their gift of creativity to mold their own “what works,” it will often be more magical than anything that standard could possibly have offered.
Blake, does your reference of an “implied” Scorpio moon mean someone with a different “actual” moon would be less likely to manifest some of the specifics of the personality? And is there also an implied sun and ascendant for INFJ?
Blake, does your reference of an “implied” Scorpio moon mean someone with a different “actual” moon would be less likely to manifest some of the specifics of the personality?
Most INFJs will be born without an “actual” Scorpio Moon due to simple statistical chance (as their are 12 signs of the zodiac, any person has a 1 in 12 chance of being born during a Scorpio Moon).
But, yes, I suppose that it is true that if an INFJ were born on the Scorpio Moon they would be closer to the id dynamic I describe for INFJ in this article and elsewhere than an INFJ born on another Moon (which most will be). Let’s just say it would increase the power of the dynamic I describe herein.
Also, just having the sign of Scorpio emphasized in the astrological birth chart would increase this dynamic too.
Does this mean that an INFJ that was born with a relatively Scorpio-free chart would be exempt from the id dynamics I describe in this article?
No, it doesn’t. I contend that the dynamic will still be there qualitatively, though, it may not be powered up to any significant extent. I maintain that any INFJ has this dynamic by definition. So, every INFJ has an “implied” Scorpio Moon no matter what kind of birth chart they were born with.
Certainly, the birth chart will either emphasize or tone down certain features of the innate temperament (MB type) but, it cannot change them qualitatively.
And is there also an implied sun and ascendant for INFJ?
Yes, I assign the first half of the sign of Sagittarius as the “implied” Ascendant (or rising sign) of INFJ and the second half of the sign of Pisces as the “implied” Sun position of INFJ.
However, beware if you are going to go off and read a random description of either of those signs because Sagittarius is often described from an extraverted point-of-view (Ne) and Pisces is often described from an introverted point-of-view (Fi).
INFJ has dominant subject-oriented Sagittarius and auxiliary object-oriented Pisces.
Pisces, in particular, is rarely, if ever, described from an object-oriented (extraverted) point-of-view.
Why, just the sound of it is a bit alien to many people I’m sure – object-oriented Pisces. What the hell would that look like?
Well, to be sure, it doesn’t look like most of the descriptions of Pisces that are around on the internet.
To give a hint – object-oriented Pisces is the influence that many world conquerors were born under.
The world is not enough.
Okay. I can see how even the internet descriptions of Pisces especially have matching elements.
Do you find that body morphology (and movement, etc.) generally more closely match your feel of the implied Ascendant (consistent with the person’s MBTI) or actual Ascendant?
And… if the assumption (and I’m not sure it’s THE assumption, but I guess has been my assumption) is that alignment of the stars and planets energetically influence our frame on this planet, wouldn’t the time of conception be as important as (or more important than) birth time / Do some astrologers figure that time into their calculations?
Do you find that body morphology (and movement, etc.) generally more closely match your feel of the implied Ascendant (consistent with the person’s MBTI) or actual Ascendant?
Both. And I know that’s a fucked up answer, but, its the only answer I feel comfortable saying to such a broad question as this.
And… if the assumption (and I’m not sure it’s THE assumption, but I guess has been my assumption) is that alignment of the stars and planets energetically influence our frame on this planet, wouldn’t the time of conception be as important as (or more important than) birth time / Do some astrologers figure that time into their calculations?
The time of birth signifies when an entity begins a separate life from its mother on the earth plane. This is usually measured from the time that the newborn infant takes their first breath, which usually is concurrent with the severing of the umbilical cord. It’s somewhere around there.
So, the time of conception, aside from the impracticality of measuring when this occurs, is not measuring the beginning of life as a separate entity on the earth plane.
So, while I’m sure conception is significant astrologically, it isn’t feasible to measure (but, maybe it is now with new technologies, I don’t know) and it is not the beginning of life as a separate entity on the earth plane.
And it is not the beginning of life as a separate entity on the earth plane.
Hmm, I get the feeling I’m repeating myself.
On a sort of gross level, you could compare premies born a month or two ahead of time versus their matching counterparts born ~on time-ish for gross similarities or differences regarding the impact of conception versus birth time.
However, you would have you to figure in that the premature infants would have a very different first several weeks on planet earth that would affect their life course and personality. But then… you could ask what energies at conception played into that early timing of birth even occurring.
And then you would have nothing more than you did at the start but a grandfather-paradox type headache 🙂
I’m a female INFJ, and I have to say thank you understanding and appreciating us for not being sweet and vanilla-flavored. And, it’s amazing how many interesting comments there are on this thread, my kind of people! What I would like to emphasize is that, at least for myself, being INFJ is like having the doors to the unconscious open a little (or a lot) too wide, granting and inflicting existential, transpersonal, and primal experiences that most people keep more tightly locked away, which INFJs help others contact in art and in psychotherapy; I do both of those, and I enjoy dream interpretation, but I can do science and things practical. I’ve followed many quests for varieties of knowledge. I can get into despair and self-loathing when I start to feel like the monstrosity I’m aware of belongs personally to me and when I just feel too weird and want to be a normal person and fit in. In daily life, I’m a professional, I’m stable, I have friends and good relationships with family, and am generally easy to get along with. It often feels to me like people love their idea of me, not who I really am, because I’m not on their visible spectrum in part, and also because I keep so much hidden, because it’s not all nice, and I consciously choose to make the effort to be as kind as possible. But maybe it’s not “me,” anyway. I sense myself as indomitable, spiritually, I guess you could say, and I wish for someone just as insightful and emotionally courageous to understand me, and stand with me, and stand up to me, including in my dark aspect, because otherwise… It is lonely. I’m selfish enough that I want that validation, but it’s also what everyone wants. I’m old enough (40s) that I’m accepting the need to live without that and enjoy what I do have and let all that deep stuff live in my work and creativity and in emoting and etc with my closest friends.
Just to share, my stats: Scorpio sun conjunct Neptune, (and asteroid Lilith,) Scorpio rising, Taurus moon, Venus conjunct Uranus in the 12th, Mars in the 12th. Cheers!
Are you an actual INFJ too or a rationalist? You sound a bit like a rationalist I know but this is the only article I have read of yours…
Anyway, I am an INFJ, Scorpio woman married happily to a man of 15 years today. We have three children and a fairly happy normal life considering. While we have our own stories, grief and pain ( just lost a mom) neither of us have cheated and we both are independent of each other and need space yet also enjoy each other immensely. He is an ENFP. Perhaps it helped that we married young and grew accustomed to each other and life together? Our children are INTJ, ENTJ and ENFP. We have a lovely little life. While I would admit I am passionate and high maintenance in some things, I balance that out with other factors. While sexuality is higher on my list than my husbands I try to balance out the needs so everyone wins. Basically, what I am saying is that for anyone else taking this too seriously- remember that there are so many different ways to live a life, to break cycles, to BE…and it’s ok if it doesn’t fit “type” exactly or it’s ok if it does. Anything can be successful with the right conditions, context, dedication, communication, humour and understanding…maybe?
I don’t love the language on here at times- not the swears as I don’t believe there is any such thing as a bad word- just badly used…and I find that the manner in which a word is used can sometimes be the difference between building someone up or completely tearing the world apart and I am concerned about the fresh newbies on here whom may be taking this without a grain of salt but perhaps that is my INFJ purist part shinning through and I need to get off my concerned high horse? However, It is who I am- aspects of it- so thus I write it. Just know, for those fresh hopefuls, that we make who we are and personality is a big part but so is conditionings, family upbringings, environment, genetics, mental differences, choices, and so many factors make up you. Take what works, leave what doesn’t. Enjoy the journey.
Anyway, Blake- i think you have a lot of insight that is coloured by your own perspectives and temperament. Which is normal and awesome that you are you being you. While I do not share all of your perspectives nor agree 100 percent, I do enjoy the fresh way and brutal honesty you decide to put out there. I don’t know if you know much about ENFPs and INFJs but I would recommend this match ( at least with the INFJ female and the ENFP male- don’t know what it would be like the other way around) in the regard that when I am taking things way too seriously as I tend to do- my husband laughs heartily as is in his nature- and I chill. I have also brought him around to reading philosophy and enjoying more serious pursuits. All in all, it works rather well as a yin yang but maybe that is just our relationship?:)
Just writing to say that this feels so spot on. It’s like reading myself writing about myself but with just enough distance to make me go, “Aha!” Good, bad… don’t even care. It’s just true. Resonates 10000%. Especially what you’ve written in the comments about introjection. It’s nice to have a word for that. I’ve noticed that when I stop being able to dig into the inside of somebody, I loose interest. When I hit a wall. Always looking to see how deep it goes 😉
Also, I want to reply to the various comments that feel that this article is untrue or unkind. Firstly, it is one particular person’s particular take on a particular type. It is interesting. It is thought provoking. It is FUN. No small children or animals have been harmed. (Well, to my knowledge…)
In discussing “types,” no singular description is going to fit all people who resonate with that type. No one person is going to embody all aspects and possibilities of a type. There is room for endless exploration. I’d have to agree with Blake who, If I remember correctly, said that his articles were rather like a counter to all of the milk-toast versions of type descriptions floating around in the internet ether. Personally, I find this refreshing. Also, note that nowhere in this article does he say that these traits are “bad” or “wrong,” that whole way of looking at the world feels very Christian-Western to me.
I really enjoy the writings of James Hillman and Thomas Merton, two psychologists who focus quite a bit on the overlap of mythology/archetypes/psychology. They also focus on the idea of soul- not a soul that lives when you die and go to heaven, but that particular energy- creative, dark, erotic, passionate, feminine, juicy. In some book, somewhere, Thomas Merton says the soul is definitely dark, but not willfully perverse. It makes me think of a hero/outlier in a story where you’re not sure if they’re good or bad, but you’re rooting for them all the same. That kind of darkness. As opposed to, say, serial-killer darkness.
I feel like that correlates to this article. I see a cultural demonizing of the feminine and especially the dark feminine. I believe that so often this energy does become toxic because there are so few healthy channels and outlets for it. It get’s dammed up and ferments and congeals. To openly discuss such darkness about a type is not unflattering- it’s just true! And it’s somewhere in everyone, if possibly quite repressed. And if a person (INJF or otherwise) can really go to those dark places and really see what’s going on (even though there will always be an infinity of things we DON’T see), that’s a huge gift to the world. Maybe it doesn’t seem like it, but it is!
For example, as I mentioned in a different post, I worked in a psych hospital for a while and plan to pursue a path as a therapist/healer (well, and also writer/songwriter). I noticed that I was able to connect with suicidal patients in those deep, dark places without flinching. When they couldn’t find words I’d just say, “Is it like this…” Or I’d tell of a story or myth that corresponded. Or sing a song or recite a poem. Or share from my own experience. I was surprised, naively, to discover that none of my other co workers could do this. They were all completely baffled at why somebody would want to kill themselves or “choose” to be addicts and were constantly trying to get people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and be healthy- trying to get them to talk like pulling teeth. All I had to do was look somebody in the eye and say, “Tell me your story, ‘case I’ve been there too.” And all the walls fell down.
So, to say that darkness is “bad” or “evil” is completely beside the point to me. In the words of Walt Whitman, “I am large- I contain multitudes” Is that good? Is it bad? Who cares! If it’s true, that’s all I care for.
Yes! I love this comment. I think that’s exactly right, that dark energy dammed up congeals and becomes unhealthy.
I think (I’m sorry to sound like a college freshman) that Western thought modes about this stuff are not that helpful, as though it’s possible to just not have darkness present in the self, or just never allow negative emotion to exist in the body (but magically there are not going to be any repercussions to that repression). I think it makes people mentally, emotionally, spiritually and even physically sick to not be allowed to let their shadows exist. It’s sad that even so many people who work with those in crisis have this same set of ideas, rather than just letting people be where they are and feel what they already feel.
Madness and darkness make up every person. Some spend the majority of their lives denying, running from, papering over, buying salvation from, or numbing their madness to pretend they are “good” human beings. They will never succeed. The only way to win is to face your darkness, know it, embrace it to the point of weaving it and its expressions into your everyday character, and going forward whole and with open eyes. I think INFJs are uniquely positioned to do that of all the types, having a hotline to our madness in the form of NiTi. Jung himself knew this which is why I’m certain he was INT/FJ.
“Be silent and listen: have you recognized your madness and do you admit it? Have you noticed that all your foundations are completely mired in madness? Do you not want to recognize your madness and welcome it in a friendly manner? You wanted to accept everything. So accept madness too. Let the light of your madness shine, and it will suddenly dawn on you. Madness is not to be despised and not to be feared, but instead you should give it life…If you want to find paths, you should also not spurn madness, since it makes up such a great part of your nature…Be glad that you can recognize it, for you will thus avoid becoming its victim. Madness is a special form of the spirit and clings to all teachings and philosophies, but even more
to daily life, since life itself is full of craziness and at bottom utterly illogical. Man strives toward reason only so that he can make rules for himself. Life itself has no rules. That is its mystery and its unknown law. What you call knowledge is an attempt to impose something comprehensible on life.”
― C.G. Jung, The Red Book: A Reader’s Edition
Hi Blake,
Thanks for all of your posts. Your website is great. Just curious if you can give me some insight into an INFJ + ENTJ romantic relationship. Strengths? Pitfalls?
ENTJ is the natural father of INFJ, so, if it were a romantic relationship between an INFJ woman and ENTJ man there could be a lot of father-daughter interplay.
Definitely a relationship in which the ENTJ holds an advantage of being “above” the INFJ. INFJs will either try to impress the ENTJ or rebel against them depending on their innate orientation towards authority figures. The ENTJ is a natural authority figure to the INFJ.
Wow. *Mind blown*. Blake, you just explained my last relationship. I’m an ENTP woman who was seeing an INFJ man. It all makes sense. I agree with everything you’ve said about INFJ/ENTP pairings. Thanks!
As a Virgo/ENFJ, I find it extremely uncomfortable to play the dominant role in my relationship with a very particular INFJ (one that displays most of the traits you’ve listed). Our relationship dynamic would be described as what I call “dysfunctional harmony”, and we’d constantly shift roles to keep together. I’ve went through my shares of horrifying past experiences, so at times, my innate drive to protect my INFJ from her own dangerous desires kicks in. It turns her off, and turns me completely off.
I want this relationship to work,
But I think it’s time to throw in the towel.
Is there any way to rescue it? Was there any way to rescue it before?
If not
What’s the best way for me to end this with her?
I love her very, very much.
But she’s still too young, and far too innocent. She needs a chance to grow.
And I just need time, a lot of time, for myself to recharge.
(P.S. I we’ve almost never fought, mostly because when things get heated we just stop talking for a few days – a week (she’s the one who usually comes back). And when ever I try to share my feelings/thoughts on the situation, she just completely shuts off. I honestly don’t know what to do).
How does an ENTP experience sex with an INFJ? Most ENTPs I know can have sex with anything just for the hell/fun of it, but do they feel more with INFJ in terms of emotional fulfillment? In general, I’m confused by the ENTP perspective on the INFJ romantically/sexually in comparison to their “whatever” vibe with other types.
This is the most fascinating, terrifying, hopeful, and enlightening thing I have ever read on the subject of female INFJs (I are one) and their relationship to…well, relationships. You had my attention at “assumed Scorpio Moon.”
I think you depicted the underbelly of my MBTI really well. However, I’ve never been totally down with Freudian interpretation of things, in this case the idea of the id, and how it never learns, is unchangeable, etc. I have found it can be taught, though it takes tremendous courage, perseverance and dare I say not a little bit of tenderness toward self to heal or at least ease that part of us that sees us as broken, dirty, and defective. Most of us are entirely too stingy with real tenderness towards ourselves as we learn and grow. And that is for sure a weakness. Once mastered though, self-tenderness becomes a force multiplier with unimaginable positive consequences.
This brings me to a point you made about female INFJs desiring a man to go to her depths with her, but being unsatisfied because none seem capable of this. After the work I’ve done on my relationship with myself these past few years, I humbly submit that there is no amount of love that comes from another that can fill the void of love that comes from self. In short, I no longer expect this depth of connection to come from my relationships. My cup has been filled from within and I am only beginning to see the ramifications of this in my external relationships. It has been worth the blood, sweat, and tears to get here.
Another thing I smiled right through was your paragraph about female INFJs needing Domination (male ENTPs *have* played a role in my past on this, now that I reflect on it.) Absolutely true for me. My partner’s ability to inspire my respect is paramount to keeping my attention and interest. And woe betide the man who has sought to win my affection by giving in to me, or professing his undying love, etc. I understand how that is perfect for others but not for me. I don’t agree with your conclusion of the motivation for this, though.
I’ve always thought this had to do with desiring a safe place to swim in my own emotional depths. An ENTP can be tremendously adept at providing such a container, and I have found great relief in knowing that I can draw from my depths to provide the kind of emotional warmth expressed though affection and service, he is perfectly happy at the helm. If he is down swimming with me, who’s steering? Of course I need someone who gets me and cherishes me, but I seem to feel safer with partners who express their affection in very different ways than I would mine for them.
I just discovered your blog and see you’ve written a newer piece about the positive aspects of lunar Scorpio INFJs. I’m looking forward to “devouring” that one as well. Thank you for your insights!
By the by: I have a Cancer sun in the 12th house, Scorpio Moon, Cancer rising. My Venus is in Gemini. I have a lot of planets in Gemini, actually. Wonder if that has anything to do with the more cerebral approach I take to relationships, and to things just generally. I certainly am not a Beatlesque “fainting fan girl.” (I probably messed up how I expressed those astrology things, because I’m not really an adept. Just thought it might be interesting.)
Random comment, don’t know where to put it, never really comment…but I think what is blowing my mind right now is this concept of what if what I want I simply can’t have? Because it doesn’t work for me? Is that possible? I guess it’s not that foreign of a concept because I come from a life coach / new age / self-help / personal development background where The Secret prevails and anything you want you can have. And that’s not everyone’s experience.
To be more specific, and Blake has mentioned this, I’ve always wanted some sort of romantic relationship, a feeling of home, family, stability, foundation “I’ve made it” in the conventional / looks good on Facebook – is impressive in surface-level conversation sort of way…but recently…finally…through some Fe methods mentioned here, I’ve discovered an expanse space of self-connection, manageable and enlightening solitutde/loneliness and after all of that…
Freedom.
It makes romance a possible side effect / option, and not the center of everything, and some sort of expression or creativity as the center of everything.
But I still desire sex and relating and companionship and touch so much.
So I’m confused because how does that make sense that an intense impulse or desire that you’ve had since you were a kid might possibly not be what you actually need or are destined for? How is that possible?
Is it not true that if you want or desire something deeply you are meant for it? This is very interesting to me that what I’ve never thought much about or perhaps what I’ve avoided until now might be what works for me.
And it also makes me feel sad and lonely. Not suicidal, but lonely still. But I want to explore this feeling. Where is this taking me? Where am I going? I can’t explain…no one understands…will I ever have sex again? And good sex? Do I have to give it all up to be an…artist?
Fountain is on its way by the way…
I vote *Yea* for understanding. Two things I’m now trying to work with: 1) no orgasms; 2) the idea that romantic love is pure insanity.
Is it not true that if you want or desire something deeply you are meant for it?
Yes, that is a very interesting question and a bit of a conundrum because while a life without desire seems hardly worth living, desire is a form of bondage too.
And sexual desire is a very difficult issue as far as I’m concerned. So much suffering in this world arises from it. But, so much pleasure too.
People can ruin their lives over sexual desire. Destroy marriages. Sometimes, kill people. Bind themselves (often stupidly) to the object of their desire. Much of the great poetry of this world comes from being tortured in love.
I haven’t yet heard of any easy answers to this conundrum. I have heard a few great descriptions of the core of the problem (Currently, I consider Camille Paglia’s book Sexual Personae to be the best book I have ever read on this) but not any really good answers (though, I haven’t finished reading Paglia’s book, so who knows).
I have described (and perhaps, hyperbolized) the dilemma in INFJ terms to the best of my ability and with my current state of knowledge on the issue (which isn’t too profuse). To me all this stuff does go beyond really being type-specific. It is really a primary dilemma/dynamic of humanity and the relations between the sexes. I think there is much to explore here and I consider myself something of a newbie when it comes to that particular philosophical discussion.
However, what I do think is that INFJs have a particularly critical orientation to this issue of desire and romantic/sexual relations. I don’t know what THE ANSWER to it is and I don’t necessarily think there is any one answer.
Generally, what I advocate is BALANCE between two opposing and extreme stances. I don’t advocate becoming a monk or nun (ascetic) and forever removing oneself from the whole sexual desire equation and I don’t advocate the pure expression of desire just because one may feel it strongly.
So, does it mean that if one desires something deeply they are meant for it? I would tend to say yes because I err on the side of desire and the validity of the life of desire, but, I also think the more strongly desirous someone is for something the more intelligence and responsibility they have to have too.
Because desire is very dangerous and cruel. But, indispensable to human happiness.
Sexual desire is very much connected to the will to live. Freud knew this. Nietzsche knew this. Dostoevsky knew this. Paglia knows this.
I pretty much agree with them over any of the ascetic’s philosophies (Christianity being the most relevant one in the West).
But, this agreement constitutes an acceptance that there in an inherent cruelty in human nature of which the sexual (desire) drive is intimately connected to and that you condone cruelty and pain towards yourself and others (especially the objects of desire) as one of the positive incitations towards life.
Anyway, this drive towards desire and the satiation of desire in balance with restraint and chastity has been elegantly defined by Nietzsche is his first book The Birth of Tragedy as the warring drives of Dionysus and Apollo, gods who were invented by the Ancient Greek people to both explain the inherent cruelty and chaos of nature (The Dionysian) and a way to balance them with solar impulses (Apollonian).
In a nutshell, I advocate this balance between the Dionysian (Paglia often prefers to call this “chthonic” rather than Dionysian) and the Apollonian.
An INFJ is, on average, about midway between those two energies with the Dionysian/Chthonic being in the id (regressive, strong, infantile) and the Apollonian energies being their point of highest integration (what they are moving towards as they mature as a type).
Incidentally, an ENFJ has the exact opposite trajectory. They are midway between the Apollonian and Dionysian but they start at the Apollonian and move towards the Dionysian/Chthonic as their point of highest integration.
So, you can take that however you want to. You can’t ignore the id similar to how you can’t ignore the lunar needs in astrology (The Moon). Those id energies have about the same power and desire that an infant has when it is screaming for milk. It needs or it will die. And it doesn’t give a fuck. All it wants is the nipple or it’s world will come crashing down. And it’s true, a baby needs milk and touch or it will not survive or become stunted in development.
Ah, primacy.
Well, don’t know what else to say, but, I just wanted to offer a few words to you on your conundrum. And yes, it is a very interesting question and quite a doozy (or a floozy). 🙂
“Is it not true that if you want or desire something deeply you are meant for it? ”
I feel like I have an infp version of this.
Ni id has me trying to understand stuff and I never do, or at least most people’s reactions if I think out loud are patronizing and make me regret. My auxiliary Ne has me looking like a fool and that feedback is hard to use. Okay so I’m a fool. What next. Why would someone trying to understand just come off like a fool. At least I am trying and being naked. Can I earn some respect for that? Apparently not. I often want to close off from others when my Ne just earns me “silly” status. I mean… I am probably unhealthy type-wise, because I literally close off from others who think I am just “silly, quirky” and see nothing else. And there are so many people who see me as just quirky and not much else. They never get to know me. Pretty much nobody knows me in the end. Oh well.
The id is like a driving force to insanity and the auxiliary is like a thing that earns me points of the type I don’t value.
Alike,
Sometimes the heart is a liar. :>
Like Blake says, INFJ seems to live at extremes of passion but as they mature they gain temperance. So maybe for INFJ it’s about finding sen in the middle of things instead of being enthralled from one end to the next, as tempting as it may be for the Fi id.
So maybe not all picket fences, nor ascetic life, not wanton abandon, but a little bit of each, a dance or weaving tapestry between those things. I think that’s a very artsy, INFJ way of putting it! Hahaha. (neither Apollo or Dionysus, but an Athena mode? Athena comes up for me because I like her, plus being goddess of wisdom, war, and art is like *thumbs up*)
Lunar,
I think maybe people just don’t know what to make of you or appreciate you, or maybe you don’t feel it, but I have once said to an INFP friend that “people never love us for the qualities we want to be loved for!!!”. For example, I wanna be loved for my intelligence or fearsome competence (lol), but I think a lot of my friends would rather say it’s because I show kindness or non-judgmental attitude or something like that. The things we value most for ourselves to be/have are not always valued the same by others and I guess that is just something we generally have to live with. It is hard or perhaps impossible to be understood completely by anyone, despite your Ni id desires of knowing the true truth and meaning of things, so maybe INFP task/journey is to find joy in all the many MANY connections they can make in the world. Something like where all the facets of themselves end up meeting with other facets in bits; small tangents that end up showing off the jewel or crystallized soul that they are. I think in that way, perhaps not any one person will be able to understand all of you, but the universe(s) as a whole, does, because you are connected to all of it.
I think for INFP, maybe trying to look for what they themselves mean to others, how they are valuable to others, or what status others may put them under, is a red herring. I personally think it’s nicer when INFP enjoy themselves and worry a bit less about those things, because they naturally explore and pursue excellence(s) as their interests guide them. Suffer a little bit for the sake of earning enough to eat or shelter your family, but also don’t forget to just enjoy, because that is where I think INFP shine best (and by proxy benefit all–they are a bit of a canary-in-the-mine, I think! If the INFP must needlessly suffer/suffocate, then the world/environment itself is not in a great place– I think INFJ on the other hand head straight into areas of suffering no matter what, so they are a different kind lol).
“Like Blake says, INFJ seems to live at extremes of passion but as they mature they gain temperance.”
So true. I don’t think all infjs are the same because I know two intimately that have strong differences. But one of them I think represents this and when I want to deal with that relationship I find it helpful to view her as a needle that reacts swaying from one side to the other. She prides herself on being unemotional surrounded by lesser emotional people. Meaning she seems somewhat unaware. But daily qualities of relationships/other can trigger very strong emotions in her.
On the flip-side as infp I am often assumed to be extremely emotional, but actually nervous-system overwhelm comes much closer to how I am. On a slower time scale, I am very emotional yes. But on a daily kind of way, I am simply over-aroused. And numb. Numbness is more familiar to me than emotions. Numbness just feels safer.
Sorry for the lack of meat in my previous comment. I would like to partake in this conversation with special remarks to Alike’s sexual desires and intimacy. I would like to elaborate.
I’ve been giving this a lot of thought lately. Desire. Intense feelings. Very intense. To the point of madness. It is madness. It is insanity. The truth lies in music or poetry as Blake brings to point. If there wasn’t a catchy tune or a mysterious and enticing dark figure at the source, we would all think these people had gone bat-shit-crazy. Well, they did. Why did they go crazy? Why do people fall “crazy in love”?
There is a difference between love and this madness. I think that’s why I tried to explore love as being passionless in an old comment of mine. Passion. That’s an illness. Desire, diagnose-able. Desire is a drug. And I know what you’re feeling – loneliness. Horny, get off, intense high, alone. Maybe I’m being a bit too primitive, but this is how my brain works. Now, to solve this loneliness, you think you may want to have someone lying in bed next to you. How long is that good for? Well, if you’re a true INFJ, chances are that ain’t good for long. AND, you may feel lonelier than when you were just alone. We confuse sexual desire (descending) for love (ascending). And deep down our minds know it doesn’t fit, so that’s why we struggle. Where something is supposed to be conceived and nurtured in your heart, it’s artificiality inseminated into your sick brain.
But there’s a bright side. Since we are born and die alone, we must find a way to accept ourselves. That should be comforting. Because now, we don’t have to rely on any relationship or any one person to be accepting. Now in reality, who gives a fuck? The universe doesn’t care that you’re content with dying. It’s called peace of mind. Peace. Passionless. We must learn to accept ourselves. But most importantly, we have to stop acting like a bunch of animals pretending to be humans. So Alike, should you give it all up to be an artist? My inclination is no. My guess is your art is driving your passions. So what does an INFJ do? What they were destined to do: turn into an intellect. So take a long walk in the forest and see yourself reflected onto that deer’s blank face and have many intellectual conversations. Okay, I’ll stop being cryptic. How about try to not have sex for a long period of time and see what happens. Also, question things (like INFJs like to do, already). But also try to solve them. Solve those problems in your mind for your mind’s sake. For peace’s sake. Put that in your Nietzsche pipe and smoke it. 🙂
Thoughts?
To Prax,
I just want to say that your words to Lunar seemed INTJ at their best and as I admire them most in the few healthy types I’ve met. Also, your INFJesque descriptors confirm what Blake said about you guys being the type most capable of understanding INFJs. You also seem to have a very good grasp of INFPs.
To Lunar,
At risk of sounding condescending, I want to assure you that I see you as very smart and not silly. Well, if you are silly it seems intentional and in good fun and as if you are doing it with enthusiastic awareness. It would be stupid of anyone to write off your serious comments as silly, because even if they aren’t taken up, they add something to reflect upon or to even reject. If that happens, it isn’t a rejection of you necessarily. Because you are curious, you know a lot about a lot of different things in true Ne lovelyness. Well, most of my favorite people have a lot of Ne in their fuel tank.
As for being a fool. I see that as one archetypal expression of the Ne nature. There is a lot of wisdom in that. There is fresh energy, and openness to discovery, and a willingness to not know but an enthusiasm for discovery. It is an explorer nature in my mind, but not in the bent of Fisher’s Explorer archetype, which is more analogous to SPs. Here is a Tarot Deck description of the fool. I do not see this archetype in a derogatory way. Without someone exploring the possibilities and potentials with openness, and sharing their discoveries and the wonder of it all with fresh eyes, where would we be as a species? It seems to me, the fool has a lot to teach us and bring a new way of viewing to our human doings. It is a spark of life and the energy at the beginning of process of an enterprise.
I hope that wasn’t condescending. I was trying to lend to you what the INFPs in my world have lent to me. I was trying to hold up a mirror that isn’t distorted but rather clear. You guys do that so well in my opinion.
Well, here is the Fool tarot card, as an alternative view of its potential and purpose. You certainly have more facets than the Fool, but if that is indeed an aspect, it does not seem a bad aspect to have and one that humanity surely needs. I see the Fool in my ENTP husband and I don’t see him as foolish in the way most people would use the word. He has even taught me to exercise my inner fool to the degree I am comfortable, which has grown considerably over time.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/fool.shtml
Blake,
These are some pretty lofty expectations to fulfill. Please do write a series that will instruct INFJ women on how to fulfill these ultimate, glorious masochistic/sadistic roles you’ve so generously attributed the type with.
I am new to your site, I found myself enjoying your writing style, it is witty & cutting, fresh & sardonic. I’ve especially loved how you lure the reader in, dating to tread where few will, then you drag them the test of the way, kicking & screaming, until they finally submit & timisly admit it’s pleasurable.
But I’ve thus far found a few contradictions (you might be an INFJ yourself…if you are indeed an INFJ female, this would make the liberties you take more understandable, yet still misleading).
1. You tell one commenter to not take it personally, it’s something you find irritating. You then set yourself as some form of expert because you’ve studied INFJs irl. I am most curious about what qualifies you to speak so freely & derogatively about our sexual desires & tastes? If based on real life experience with INFJ, would this not mean your article is also you “taking it personally”?
2. “They don’t merge with the beloved….they always keep their guard up…” You claim this to be selfish. Yet you advise an INFP commenter (who was speaking about focusing on her needs in a relationship on a different article) to embrace her self centeredness. Just a side note, there is a huge difference between self preservation & selfishness.
3. On the same reply mentioned above, you also state that you don’t give much merit to “healthy vs. unhealthy”. Yet in these comments, you make mention of healthier INFJs/tendencies (forgot exact comment).
I do value the idea of not idealizing any types of person, I’ve grown very tired of being painted as some angelic form when I’m just as messed up as the next person. But I do believe there is a danger in our human nature of swinging to the opposite side of the spectrum. Kierkegaard & Nietzsche- both great examples of that. So instead of seeking truth & balance, you just become reactionary, sobbing about the horrible, in just evils as you create one just as equal. Perhaps you might stumble upon some brilliant insights, but it will be completely submerged in bitter, subjective, highly exaggerated, fluttering notions.
But perhaps your intention in writing is not to foster understanding, share your unique truths, but only to be controversial in a distasteful, amateur way. In which case, this has been fulfilled- I did sign up for a subscription just to reply to this article 😉
Disappointing- you truly do have an amazing gift with utilizing language. Very captivating. (i am speaking about other articles. This one just sounds like free flowing, base ramblings of a hurt, rejected ego that couldn’t get an INFJ to sleep with them).
Some of this characterization I can see being applied to me when I was younger. I wanted an absolute love, but one that was earned, by the both of us, in some kind of archetypally meaningful sparring. He was a poet, an existentialist-ish INFP. I wanted to engage him, to bring him into the world of emotion outside himself. I didn’t want to “devour” him, but meet him. I was young and foolish and wanting more from life than bullshit people. But then, when you are young, you don’t really know what bullshit even is.
He died and in the fallout from losing him I encountered the depths of human psychology via a BPD individual. I learned. I sank and I learned better. I do actually have this Scorpio moon spoken of here, but I don’t know, I think I’m usually the most sane person in the room. Go through your shit INFJs, but know you can come out of it. It’s difficult to be in your twenties and so different, so in need of a kind of understanding that will likely never come your way.
My advice for INFJ in the depths of bad circumstances = don’t forget how to laugh! The world is funny, be funny yourself if you can. Detach from the bad bullshit and rise higher than that. Demand that of the people you let into your lives.
I did the dumbass depths alluded to here and thank fucking god I got past that shit. Destructive bullshit is not your destiny! You will grow up past it.
I’m with istj right now WHO HAS INTEGRITY. This is the most important thing – RESPECT THE MAN YOU LOVE. That’s it. Have a common goal and respect each other. You don’t need to be with a special NF and discover unthought depths. Find someone good and who you enjoy spending time with and tend your damn garden Candide style.
Maybe I’m on the ENTP end of INFJ, maybe Virgo rising has something to do with it. More likely I just grew up, despite my shitty twenties, and became a more whole person capable of a healthy love.
no, INFJs you are not condemned to a life on the outskirts, I promise you that you will get through your youth if you choose to do so. self actualize. Be a bit more zen and willing to be happy and better things will come to you than the hellish dilemmas outlined here.
Thanks though as always Blake, your writing is always thought provoking.
Oink!
Well said, Rosalind! especially this:
“My advice for INFJ in the depths of bad circumstances = don’t forget how to laugh! The world is funny, be funny yourself if you can.”
My own sense of humour has been my saviour time and time again. One of the gifts of my own dominant Ni was the realisation that the world is fundamentally absurd and ridiculous. And yet most humans still insist on taking it seriously! That incongruity has been a rich minefield for comedy writers throughout the ages.
And if further proof is required of the farcical nature of the Universe, consider the following two little words: “Donald Trump”
@Blake
I’m not sure what you mean by “Oink!”
From reading a previous post on ESFJ it seems that you might be implying that I come across as this type. I suppose I used too many exclamation points/ all caps also. I was hoping for other people reading the comments to notice mine, especially those who might be going through difficult times. There is no denying that there is truth to what you are saying about the dark side of INFJs. Yours was a descriptive essay and I, and a few other commenters, felt that it could be helpful to chime in with personal stories and bit of prescriptive self help-y advice. What has helped me won’t help everyone, I realize this. Maybe I’ve let my darker more thoughtful self go in favor of a Pollyanna-ish peaceful equilibrium and almost a “always look on the bright side of life” attitude. Though the song is ironic, it still works.
@Stewart
Thanks for your complementary response. Keeping a sense of humor through it all does seem to be key to having a “healthy outlook”. I enjoy the humorous aspect of the writing here. But then, not every joke is made in an attempt to highlight the absurdity of the world. I’ve recently been annoyed with the conversation surrounding whether rape jokes should be cracked with total impunity. As for Drumpf, I was saying that I would be detaching from it, and watching it as I would a political farce on tv. But it’s real, and unfortunately the consequences of this real live sad farce will be real too. I’m stunned and still unsure of how I will take it in.
This is the post that made me realize I was an INFJ. I had previously thought I was an INFP. INTP could have also been a good fit, but there was no denying that I was an INFJ after reading an exact account of my last “committed” relationship.
He was one of the happiest, most sincere guys I’d ever met. That’s what attracted me to him in the first place. My INFJ darkness latched onto his light, hoping his openness, simplicity could somehow heal me. (Not that he was dumb. He was extremely intelligent. I know, intelligent and happy? Who knew it was possible?) Instead, I ended up driving us both insane. It was an outwardly perfect relationship but secretly a total clusterfuck. Hell disguised as heaven. And exactly how you described, “Christian and heavy.”
I was a seemingly flawless mate and he obligingly worshipped me. Yes, he literally told me he worshipped me after we broke up, but I suppose I had always known. And the worst thing I did was never do anything to prove him wrong. I became exactly who he thought I was.
But, of course, not ever truly on the inside. Inside, I was constantly wracked with guilt, hating myself for the lie and idealizing him in turn as the innocent “lamb.” I looked down on him as someone I needed to take care of, yet at the same time tortured myself with how he was “too good for me.” If he was goodness and innocence personified, I was the sick, twisted demon masquerading as his personal angel. And yes, I would (just as you predicted) secretly emasculate him in my thoughts for not seeing past me, for being so stupid/weak as to love me. Which would then set off a new round of guilt which I would try to absolve by serving the penance of becoming even more selfless and accommodating, causing him to become even more dependent, etc.
All that guilt, not even to mention general INFJ emotional depths/angsts that I was suppressing in order to go on with the Mother Mary pretense, were like “maggots breeding.” He must have felt the barely contained cauldron of fuckery roiling under the surface because he would tell me that he “loved me so much he felt like he was going crazy,” that I “understood him so well he didn’t know how to exist without me,” or that I was “the only thing he could think about,” but there was no mistaking these for cute little love declarations, because this stable, happy man (the genuinely stablest, happiest one I could find!) would literally sob into my lap hysterically while he’d say this. And I would stroke his hair until he stopped and then we would continue on as if nothing had happened.
I’m a Libra sun, Pisces moon, and Virgo ascendant, which I think act against the Scorpio-like personality type you mention. But they can also exacerbate partner-devouring symptoms in a way, as I not so much sting as engulf. Like you don’t realize the water level’s been slowly rising until you’re drowning. And my desire for harmony causes me to continue along, pretending everything is normal, and ensuring that I act in such a way so that no one can actually blame me in the end (and in fact will probably be praised for it). Yeah…
Fucking disaster. And all my fault. I really did a number on him. I should have got my shit together or ended it sooner than I did. The problem was that I was really in love with him. Yes, most of the time I was secretly ripping myself (and him) to shreds, but the rest of the time it was like being on shrooms. Brushing our teeth together was like visiting another planet. While pumped full of heroin. Or something.
Sex was… complicated. A lot to analyze there but that could be its entire own post, haha.
Anyway, I like to think I’ve learned my lesson. I’m never touching that weird fucking mother/son dynamic again. Gives me the creeps just thinking about it. I’m also not in the emotional turmoil I used to be (due to a lot of self-work and a rigorous diet of daily artistic expression), so I don’t think I’m in too much danger of channeling my unresolved self-hate into torturing myself and my partner. However, I’ve still been unable to have any romantic relations with men without them turning me into an “enigma.” How do they all come up with that word? Even having just met me? How can someone be an enigma if you’ve just met them? Aren’t we all enigmas to each other at that point?
Maybe this is just another way of saying I want someone who understands me, the classic INFJ craving, but I specifically want someone who doesn’t think that I’m some puzzle to solve. It makes me feel like I’m some conquest or challenge to “figure out,” not a human being. Even the less curious ones still have to constantly point out how “different” I am to anyone else they know, not in a bad way, but it wears on me. I know I’m focusing on little comments I should stop reading into, but I think it’s indicative of something greater. I don’t always want to be “special.” People want to be special to a special someone, not everyone they meet within 10 minutes of meeting them. I want to be with someone that doesn’t think twice about the way I am because they don’t find it that strange. They just accept me.
I genuinely try not to encourage this “air of mystery,” but it’s followed me around for my entire life. It’s my personality, which contains many contradictions, but also my backstory and manner, none of which I can really change. Whatever it is, it attracts men and women, especially men. Which I don’t understand. I mean I get the idea that mystery is meant to be intriguing, but how can you claim you genuinely like or even love someone if the reason you like them is that you don’t know them? I don’t understand the logic behind that. If I’m reserved it entices them, but when I open up it fascinates them even more because I do actually have quite a bit going on. I try and go for a dynamic of “mutual enthusiasm,” but that’s the way I’d interact with a work-friend, not a real friend, so even if I genuinely really like them, it feels superficial.
Like you said, maybe commitment just isn’t for me. I love getting to know people and I know my connections can be meaningful without having to lead to long-time commitment/dependency, but, like you say is the INFJ’s never-ending gripe, I feel that they lack something. My romantic relationships are fun but they feel separate from my “real” life.
I have an ENFP woman friend that I could strangely see being in a 3 or 4-way relationship with. I’ve never thought this about a friend before (male or female) and I think it’s because she has extremely strong stereotypically feminine traits (absolutely lovely, but also a bit flighty/naggy/vain) that could create tension between the masculine and feminine energies so I would get sick of one and go to the other (and thereby not accidentally devour one of the partners due to too much intensity). You might be on to something with the polyamory idea.
Anyway, thank you Blake for helping me confront my INFJ fuckery. With your articles I was able to realize that I am now a recovering information-addict and my life has been forever changed after learning to use that Fe auxiliary like a motherfucker.
I find your articles hilarious and ridiculously on point — I have yet to be the slightest bit offended. Again, thanks for all your time and thoughtful insight!
Thank you with providing a framework that FINALLY helps me make sense of my recent relationship. With all that worked and fit so well, why didn’t it work? Simply I am not enough of a jerk. Too much in the “nice guy” role so I guess I was ultimately viewed as weak despite being the one that for once in her life had seen her naked and “got” Some don’t like being understood
Err, Capt Bob? I assume you are not an INFJ? I’m going to have to politely interject and say that I don’t think you actually understood the jist of what Blake had tried to say.
Your last statement is very wrong: INFJs WANT to be understood. INFJs spend their entire fucking lives moaning because they’re deprived of this. Nice guys claim that they are giving their all, but the level of understanding they’re offering is too shallow, too feeble to satisfy the INFJs’ insatiable ids. They want to be penetrated: psychologically penetrated. And unfortunately, many people in this world can’t do that. They lack that capacity. Does that sound arrogant to you? Well it should. Admittedly it is an arrogant thing for me to say, but I’m afraid I cannot apologize for it.
That being said. I’m sorry that said-INFJ woman hurt you. The truth is, no, goddamn fucking no, most non-INFJs cannot ever give what we want – the level of understanding we want is fucking pie in the sky, it’ll NEVER happen. BUT, that’s not your fucking fault. We INFJs need to realize and accept limitations, to stop yearning for more and more and more but to reach a point of equanimity whilst still acknowledging our feelings.
So, no. We don’t want a fucking jerk, OK? No. This sort of gross over-simplification is an excuse for digesting what really went on — that there was a dynamic that likely didn’t work on both parts, even if it seemed fine on the outside. INFJs are masters at hiding their emotions when they want to, and often, they are patiently waiting for the other to change, to heighten their ability to understand, until the INFJs finally crack and realize it will never happen: that’s when they leave abruptly, leaving the other confused. Yeah, it’s a shitty thing to do, I get that, but victimizing yourself isn’t going to help you come to terms with your relationship. Nor is believing in a tenet that is actually erroneous and potentially harmful to hold for not only INFJs but also any other woman or man or whatever in the world. I don’t think a normal, “healthy “person (whatever that means) ever wants to truly be treated like shit. And if they do, it indicates a different underlying need that must be met, manifested in some kind of twisted desire on the surface.
I’m sorry if I sounded really preach-y, but I can’t help but to write this as you seemed to have taken the wrong message from the post. We INFJs are far from perfect, and yeah, we’re full of shit. Yeah, I can be manipulative and all this other nasty stuff, but I won’t let you go until you are redeemed of miscomprehension. I can’t stand people not knowing the accurate truth, sorry.
“We INFJs” sorry to put a pin in the basis of your argument but I AM an INFJ. No one taught you about making assumptions?
I was told – flat out – by the INFJ I was involved with that she *finally* felt that someone saw her, understood her…what did she write me on one occasion? “I feel loved, cherished, seen, understood. ” I heard that often from her because it was unique in her experience….as it was in mine as well. She told close friends that she had NEVER been SEEN like this before – by which she meant UNDERSTOOD…and never so fully loved.
We were both amazed to just “get” each other. As time went on and our relationship grew we saw each other naked and we were comfortable with it – not nude – we allowed each other past our defenses and it was fucking WONDERFUL.
But I am INFJ, I am sensitive, I am tender-hearted, and I would do anything for her…except treat her as some kind of property or prize.
After repeatedly hearing how I was everything she had ever wanted – upon being fully able to have each other she was no longer as interested. Right now she appears to want to maintain a friendship and keep something of the connection we had, but romantically has moved on to a more stereotypical “alpha male.” I was not “door slammed,” in the sperficial romantic roles I was replaced….I am still the person she comes to for her “physiological penetration.”
And before other assumptions are made I am not a hopelessly romantic 25-year-old – I am more than double that age so I have experienced my share of “joys” of relationships. So if I come across as a bit bitter it is because I am. I have experienced something phenomenal and I rather doubt I will run across it again.
Thanks Schlopadoo 🙂
And Capt Bob,
I’m pretty sure you’re nice.. But “what” were you being nice for? It’s the motive that matters.. and don’t tell me that your niceness was purely philanthropic.. INFJs have X-Ray vision when it comes to motive and intent.. So if you were being nice, but not a 100% who you are by nature, it’s a turn off..
Experience has taught me that “nice” guys are just as selfish (from my POV) as jerks and what makes it more complicated is that the selfishness is invisible to themselves, but blaringly obvious to an INFJ.. I’m not saying that you ARE a selfish guy, just trying to point out that there are perspectives.. What you may view as being nice and understanding might have registered differently with the lady you’re talking about, because she might not have had the same definition of nice as you..
INFJs do not want actual jerks.. They basically want someone who has the courage to be themselves, warts and all, without being afraid of judgement.. Someone who will offer the same freedom to the INFJ in return.. That doesn’t mean that the INFJ will not judge the person, because we do have high moral standards (and if you’re an asshole, bless you).. But they would be more willing to accept when they know everything comes from a place of honesty & self-awareness and that they can be comfortably honest too, without being misunderstood.. It would be too stifling for them to keep complicated parts of themselves under wraps just because someone else can’t stomach it.. Others can never “get it” but they should atleast be able to see and accept it.. And yes, it’s not enough for the guy to be accepting and honest, if he can’t have interesting conversations about everything under the sun.. That’s sort of it.. Wanting to be deeply understood is probably the most intense desire of ours, but some desires cannot be satisfied and you can only go so deep before boundaries begin to blur and no boundaries means utter chaos.. That’s the essence of what you should take away from what Blake says..
That being said, I’m sorry you were hurt by an INFJ.. It must’ve been painful.. INFJs aren’t angels by far.. And it must’ve been hard to figure out why you were being put through it all.. But, I would say, you were probably being spared a greater pain that you would’ve found harder to bear.. Maybe its for the better? Not every girl is going to overlook all the positives you have to offer..
I don’t know if there’s any possibility of the following being at play in your dynamic, but-
In my personal experience, a pattern has replicated a couple of times and I think I finally understand what’s going on. Basically I would get into a relationship with a man and feel an intense pressure I didn’t understand at the time – so couldn’t even negotiate or deny – to become or perform the role of the woman he wanted. It’s not like he would say this out loud or demand it of me. It was more like I would read it in a way I can’t explain and feel compelled to deliver. In one case this meant performing more confidence and aggression than I felt, in another it meant a sort of sexual kittenishness, in basically all cases it involved being gentler and less sharp – not saying “You’re doing that wrong” but instead doing that “Oh, hmmm, maybe, I don’t know, maybe if you try it this other way?” and protecting his ego and buffering him against the sharpest edges of my own personality.
And for a while that would work and I would enjoy the relationship. I would particularly enjoy my partner’s feeling of being fulfilled, of getting his favorite type of relational dynamic. These men would say things to me like “I’ve never been in a relationship like this” or “You’re so much cooler than anyone I’ve ever been with”. But eventually this feeling of distance and dismay, even loathing, would build up inside of me that my partner was so easily manipulated. (I know that doesn’t make sense, necessarily, since I was the one doing the “manipulating”… but you know.) I would feel increasingly alienated, and increasingly exhausted. I think that was just about eventually running out of psychic energy to keep performing a role that wasn’t my natural skin. I would stop feeling attracted to these men, even though I had started out feeling extremely attracted to them. It felt impossible to me to negotiate for change, because I felt that I could see the ways in which my partner was unable to do anything else: after all, I had started doing this weird performance to spackle over gaps between us!
Eventually I’d sharply drop the relationship and walk away.
I really do not think it is accurate to say that a woman who is repeating this type of pattern “doesn’t like nice guys” or “wants an alpha male”. I think what a woman like that – I can see this in myself now – wants, in her soul, is to be FREE to be who she is, and the only way she can see to be free is for the man she’s with, in some fundamental way, to not care very much about her own emotional shit. Which is not the same, although often confused with, a man who just doesn’t care. But I think it’s more like you want a man who is able to say “Huh, sounds like you’re really angry at me for not buying you flowers for your birthday. I hear that. But… I’m not going to cower before that emotional storm.”
Sympathetic, but fundamentally a bit detached. I think that’s the dream man for INFJ women. Somebody who’s strong enough to not be very effected, in his soul, by the storm systems that move through her, so that she can be free enough to stop pretending to be somebody she isn’t.
I think INFJ women who do not reach a point where they either bail on the relationship or stay in one that is or becomes a relationship within which she can be emotionally free become huge epic shrews. I think that’s what happens to women in particularly when they are unfree. They can’t be who they are, they can’t let the dark side flow until it’s done, but it’s also not humanly possible to pretend to be a charming kitten who loves everything their man says for 50 years at a time, so they turn into cold, resentful furies.
Anyway, just my opinion. This post is really the gift that keeps on giving… When I was younger I think I would have been one of the people who show up here to be infuriated and offended, because particularly in my 20s I was really into performing the role of Good Understanding Loving Girl and I think I too would have been offended (in that way where really you’re offended because you recognize it) by the implication that I was full of darkness.
I think the solution is for INFJ women to let the darkness out. Rage against the machine. Get bitchy. Let the storm run its course. Buuuuuuut….. female anger is such a taboo in most cultures. Anger in general is hard for people, but it seems like female anger actually feels like it diminishes the femaleness. Like it breaks the appropriate gender mold. And yet I really think that it’s the key to freedom for at least INFJ-type women, to just let their most negative emotions OUT, to stop pretending to be angelic sweethearts.
(I have a secret guess that maybe a lot of INFJ people (women at least) are tilted in the direction of BDSM because that’s a place where you get to be REALLY emotional around sex instead of lighthearted, fluffy-sexy.)
@Capt Bob
Hey, I have nothing useful to add.
Infj love is a complicated thing to be on the receiving end of.
I think it’s TOO much is what it is.
Infjs have too much and too little capacity to love.
Infjs offer so much in the beginning, the other person doesn’t know that this is gonna be the infj’s undoing, or what is coming or what is real.
…..
@Piggie
“And yes, it’s not enough for the guy to be accepting and honest, if he can’t have interesting conversations about everything under the sun.. That’s sort of it.. ”
I nodded while reading this. I know this from experience as the one who couldn’t have interesting conversations. Before I met him, I didn’t even know people could be as interesting as him.
@Capt Bob,
Sorry to hear that. Well one can never know whether either of you are truly INFJs, but maybe you are. Dunno. I’m not God. I don’t know you. But I had to say that based on your initial post, you didn’t come across as an INFJ at all, and I didn’t get the sense that you comprehended the essence of what Blake is trying to say behind his rhetoric.
anyways, Piggie and the rest mentioned about how INFJs need freedom. Perhaps your significant other felt suffocated by the intensity of the relationship. And if that’s the case, then I don’t think it’s very accurate to say that you weren’t enough of a jerk to her and that she doesn’t want to be understood, as you have stated in your first post. She *wants* to be understood but she also wants freedom, which is a pretty shitty conundrum to have, leaving HER miserable and YOU (and probably her previous lovers as well) miserable at the same time.
The sense I got from your second post is that whatever it was, there might have been a “love to death” thing going on in your relationship, which is definitely a possibility – maybe even inevitability – for an INFJ-INFJ relationship. And OK, INFJ women and men are different, idk how much of Blake’s comments or posts you’ve read to catch on to this idea floating around somewhere in the site…but anyways…INFJ men tend to give and give and give, to do the devouring, whilst INFJ women want to be devoured. It kinda sounds like this sort of dynamic had occurred in your relations with said-INFJ-lady, and honestly…it strikes me as hell. Extremely beautiful but far too fiery. A cyclic over-amplification of the male and female Fi ids, respectively.
And your woman might have caught onto the danger of this dynamic before you would have realized…So she abruptly ended the relationship just like that…And it is highly likely that she herself is not aware of the actual motivation behind her actions…
As for her searching for alpha males…well I dunno. It’s probably just a symptom of something else bigger. Like I said before, it’s not about you playing the nice, sensitive guy, giving everything and then being trashed away. Nor is it her wanting to be in a relationship with “alpha males” or “jerks”. Maybe she *thinks* she does at the time being, but she hasn’t hit the bullseye just yet in terms of realizing what she truly needs to be happy…What she really needs is someone who will not go down the emotional bullshit with her (due to her desire for freedom and the movement from intensity to equanimity), as someone else has stated somewhere in this thread. However, this subconscious desire has been inaccurately translated into an attraction for “alpha-males” or “jerks” at the present moment…but maybe eventually, she’ll refine her needs.
While this may sound like she actually doesn’t want to be understood….she still does…So she turns to you for true emotional connection…but then tries to mingle with less-understanding guys at the same time, as an attempt to flail about, trying to find some avenue to get some freedom…
Sigh.
Basically I said all this long winded crap that can be summarized in two words: Fi id. It’s so destructive and heavy in combo with Ni dominance, so she needs to find a way to satisfy the id without drowning in it at the same time. The solution is EXPRESSION via Fe aux through an artistic medium rather than being saved or saving others through a relationship (i.e. like your INFJ-INFJ relationship) and to reach a healthy level of equanimity, which could be helped by engaging in relations with someone who will completely nullify the Fi id…I wouldn’t say dating jerks would satisfy the latter, but I can see how she can mis-associate jerks with someone who’d circumvent the Fi id.
And…crikey…Jesus fucking christ, I’m not sure what shit I just dumped here, but please forgive me. It’s fucking 4:12 AM. I am a “poor PhD student,” in her early 20s, far younger, inexperienced, and more immature than you…I am worked in lab till 2 in the morning and devoured a very late dinner at 2:30 AM and now I’m going to crash in any moment on bed, so sorry, I’m pretty sure I’ve been kind of redundant and my writing is far from taut or clear at this stage, but IDK when else I can reply to you, lol.
I’m sorry you went through all this. But please don’t brood on this whole thing as if it were a nice guy victim vs. femme fatale dynamic. That’s not good for YOU if you truly were an INFJ male – I would imagine that would amplify the male INFJ id a thousand-fold, as I would imagine the male Fi id would potentiate said male INFJ to sacrifice and give more of themselves to no end…so to perpetuate this dynamic by self-victimization is obviously a bad idea. I’m not sure what I can say in terms of what you should do with said female INFJ, but perhaps it’s time to EXPRESS yourself via Fe aux as a means to be understood and to find a female ENTP or somebody to take you to the Planetarium after burying your head in an endless ditch tunnel for years and years.
Bloody hypocrite I am for not particularly following my own advice. Fuck what am I saying. I’m verbally incontinent. I give up, good night. But I hope you will not berate yourself for what had happened. And if you are scowling at my comment because it really misses the mark in regards to what really happened in your relationship, sorry I’m tired and also I am not God. but I heard your pain, and I’m sure other stellar mazians will resonate with your pain and give awesome insightful feedback.
“That’s not good for YOU if you truly were an INFJ male – I would imagine that would amplify the male INFJ id a thousand-fold, as I would imagine the male Fi id would potentiate said male INFJ to sacrifice and give more of themselves to no end…so to perpetuate this dynamic by self-victimization is obviously a bad idea.”
As another male INFJ, I can confirm the validity of Schlopadoo’s above comment. Boy, can I!
And as a coincidental aside, even before this thread, I was intending to ask Blake to write an article on “INFJ Man: How to Get Out of a Jam” (or some such sticky equivalent)……..
@Shlopadoo
“INFJ men tend to give and give and give, to do the devouring, whilst INFJ women want to be devoured. ”
This is exactly what I thought might be the case. You actually wrote it. I was afraid to write it though in case this wasn’t the case for Capt Bob. And because it was based off dating a male infj and having a female infj in my life.
My infj taught me what the utmost love is. He was pisces pisces pisces. He did give himself no end. I wasn’t his match though, he had to operate at a fraction of his intelligence to meet me where I am. When “I went for it” I had this very strong sense, that I would never see the likes again, which turned out to be true in a very eternal way. He also left a psychological trace that will follow me into any afterlives.
@Stewart
“” “That’s not good for YOU if you truly were an INFJ male – I would imagine that would amplify the male INFJ id a thousand-fold, as I would imagine the male Fi id would potentiate said male INFJ to sacrifice and give more of themselves to no end…so to perpetuate this dynamic by self-victimization is obviously a bad idea.”
As another male INFJ, I can confirm the validity of Schlopadoo’s above comment. Boy, can I! “”
To this day I hope my infj’s new girlfriends are like entp or whatever type is best suited to him. That’s in part why I always enjoy hearing mention of entps on stellar maze. I got to witness by being the one that was no good for him what happens to an infj paired with the wrong person. It’s funny because I have an entp friend, and he was instantly drawn to her, he literally looked at her once and said, out loud, “wow”. She writes songs and he had all these thoughts about things to tell her to change about the songs. Just a flurry of thoughts. I like to imagine he found someone like that. She is very interesting. That would somehow cancel out all that other self-sacrifice stuff, by amusing him, diverting his mind, because of some magic of compatibility. I can really picture it.
@Capt Bob
Oops.. I’m sorry.. didn’t realise you are an INFJ.. goes to show how differently INFJ men approach love.. we need an INFJ Man in Love article..
All I can say is – it must’ve been intense.. she surely has her own fears that she’s dealing with in the way that suits her best.. you should probably do what’s best for you too.. you don’t have to keep the door open if it causes too much pain.. I understand why you might want to, because that kind of connection is hard to come by, but not at the cost of feeling used when she comes to you to feel understood (if that’s how it makes you feel when you see her with another guy later).. you don’t have to wait for her to slam the door, you can do it too (only if it’s what you need and want).. I really hope some ENXP breeze comes your way.. A breeze allows life to flourish unlike a hurricane.. But then, I’m very inexperienced when it comes to deep love.. so I can’t pretend like I know what’s better or worse for you.. hope you feel better soon 🙁
@lunar
I hope that experience is not one of the reasons why you feel like love is not real and don’t want to feel it again.. although I know that the only thing i love is what i imagine in things and people..
Reading all these follow-ups with great interest. Wish I could change my choice of the word “nice” to something else since these days that word seems to have so much baggage attached to it. Should have thought about my initial post a bit more before committing it here – but I was not in my “happy place” when I ran across this article and jumped on it.
I, too, would like to read a similarly frank article on the male INFJ in love, I’d be certain to learn something.
What???? This article is incredibly offensive and could not be any more wrong! Incredibly hateful and ridiculous!
Im and INFJ and I have several friends who are INFJ, and this could not be any more INACCURATE!! We are all in long term happy relationships – actually the best ones out of everyone I know! HA!
@SeeTheElephant
21/11/2016
I totally agree with everything and I mean everything you said. I too have performed contortions only to get fed up and angry, which was mostly followed by the INFJ door slam.
When I was in my twenties, I didn’t feel I could cope with an ENXP, too skittish and I probably felt too insecure. Now, I fancy some of that breeze. It’s something to look forward to. For the record, I don’t know many INFJs, but the ones I do know haven’t had an easy ride with relationships. Thank you for spelling it all out so clearly.
@Vermillion – boy do I ever hear you on the allure of the breeze! I think it would be so deeply relaxing to be around someone who didn’t cower in the face of outsize INFJ emotions.
this is eerily on point for me especially as an infj 12th house libra (yes) with scorpio rising . i was born during the new moon but it has since progressed to scorpio and now i’m at a time in my life where i crave relationships that are emotionally and sexually intense; but i suffer from “hot then cold” syndrome. i don’t know how the guy i’m with now has toughed it out for 3 years….he’s an aries sun, leo moon, libra rising, possibly enfp or infp. im afraid to ask because part of me already knows he can sink to the depths of hell with me, but i wonder how many times he can be stung before he gets fed up and leaves, especially since his venus is in taurus..
In response to all INFJs who says this article is inacurate…
I’d just like to add that I’m an INFJ who had been in some long term (7+ years) relationships and if I read this just 4 years ago I would too think its inaccurate as I was immensely jealous and believed I wanted just the perfect girl forever.
However I first did some swinging with my non-INFJ wife and recently added an INFJ woman to our poly relationship…. and having seen things from this new perspective, I think this article might be spot on.
Just don’t dismiss it out of hand… Try exploring crazy ideas (not just this one) and truly opening your mind 🙂
I don’t even remember what strange Google search led me this website but I’ve been reading your articles for the past two weeks and just WOWZA. It’s been awhile since I’ve explored Myers-Briggs (I’m not up to par with a lot of the terminology) or psychology in general because I got really frustrated with what seemed like a lot of bullshit but digging into astrology brought me back to Jung which gave me the itch to get into all the internet infj stuff again and that somehow led me here. I was all up on those other websites describing infj’s many years ago but then I realized that reading all that was not doing anything to improve my life, it just felt like a bunch of self-masturbation and it was nice reading all these nice descriptions that resonated with me and were true on one level but I had all these problems on the flipside. You really hit the nail on the head and I rarely ever comment on things. It’s painful to read a lot of this stuff because its like your shining a light on the things that I have done and still do that have caused me (and others) so much pain and trouble. But then it’s also really refreshing to read things that are so deep and true. It’s weird, it’s like I want someone to understand me but then I don’t. I want people to know what I know but then I don’t. And then I try to hide my dark side so everyone thinks that I’m a sweet little angel but I can see my dark side clearly and I know when I’m being a bad girl. Being single is always easier, I feel so much more balanced and in control but then I’m always longing for and daydreaming of a romance that will take me to the heavens and never let me fall. It’s like I want to be on this never ending high and I’m expecting this man to take me higher, higher, and higher and never let me fall. I want to live in the most beautiful castle in the most beautiful cloud where everything is just lovely and have a man who’s strong, kind, philosophical, creative, tough, reliable, caring, predictable, unpredictable, dirty, savage, civilized, and sweet. On a realistic level I know that it’s just not going to happen but I have such a hard time accepting that and I never feel CONTENT, ever. It’s so frustrating always being frustrated and it feels like the more I try to get out of it the more frustrating it becomes.
Your articles that I’ve read are so refreshing, so raw and so true. It’s like you can articulate things and make all these connections and then are able to describe them so well. It’s like I have such a hard time putting the things that pop into my head into words, even in my own head let alone trying to actually spell them out. It’s too abstract or something and then I get so frustrated and stuck when I’m trying to understand it using language. But you’re so on point with how you describe the problems I’ve been experiencing. These problems have caused me hell on earth. I’ve tried to remedy my problems for a long time with a spiritual approach and I feel like it helps me a lot when I’m actually doing it then as I try to go down a path I get stuck on the parts of trying to get all the information before I actually start doing something and then it never happens and I stop progressing until I decide to actually start doing and not just sitting on my ass trying to piece together all this information. And the doing part just doesn’t happen or it just takes forever before I make a move. It’s like I’m looking at all these pieces to the puzzle and spending an eternity just staring at them and thinking of every possibility of what the stupid pieces mean and every possibility of how I can place them when I should just be picking up the stupid pieces and actually physically trying to solve the thing so I can actually accomplish something and then move on. I really like your advice on writing three pages first thing in the morning and playing with art. I painted and drew and created odd little trinkets and things a lot as a child and I’ve thought about picking up a paint brush again for years (and of course haven’t) but reading all this has inspired me to get involved in an outlet where I can express myself, do something, and then move on. I remember that world as a child and like I think many adults who can still remember that world, I really miss it.
Anyways, I went on a rant there when I was really just trying to say THANK YOU!
Thank you so much for putting all this work out here, it’s so helpful like ACTUALLY helpful 🙂
You’re welcome! Glad you’re inspired. Subscribe and read some of my other INFJ-related articles, particularly the latest one called INFJ: The Superego and The Ego Ideal.
Thank you.
Your words are like a epiphany.
Infj women are split. Opaque puellae, opium mist.
They are tired and their journey is dark. They seem very clever, almost visionary, always ethical: sometimes, somewhere, they’re blind indeed. And vindictive, like dull children.
So deeply they feel that redemption is unreachable for them, the poor unredeemed souls. They may seem smart, sweet, funny, brilliant, boring, grim, harmless, ridiculous, viscous, frosty and tender. This is not poetry: this is borderline chaos, and its outburst is rare… They cannot find relief.
They love Black, which imprison their intention. They love, really love, White – that distant
faint cold star.
In the meantime, they look for huntsmen, preys, priests, saviors, redeemers, brothers… and sons. And they burn, become ashes, revive… year after year. They get old.
I’m an Infj, a depressive one (can an Infj be not depressive?), who for ten years has believed to be an Intj.
Gemini, Cancer Rising, Moon in Cancer in XII. Moon opposite Neptune. Moon trine Pluto. Pluto in House IV. Saturn conjunct Mars (Scorpio, House V). Uranus in House V. Mars and Saturn opposite Mercury. Too good and too vicious. I cannot workout all this. I try.
It’s a long war. Thank you for seeing us.
Hi, I just wanted to ask about my typing from astrology perspective. I think I’m an INFJ but I’m still not completely sure about that. I possibly could be an INTJ or INFP as well or maybe even ENFJ. My sun sign is virgo, moon sign capricorn and rising sing scorpio. And thats like… I don’t know, propably unlucky? Capricorn and scorpio are kinda like the darkest of the signs and virgo doesen’t seem very happy either. But anyway for me it would be important to enjoy my life too and not just work all the time. I don’t even like it how people are supposed to achieve all kinds of concrete things or have skills in order to be validated. I have Venus in Libra though and Mars in Gemini. So it would be interesting to read, if you had something to say about this combination and does it sound like an INFJ female to you or something else.
Thank you for your time. And sorry about spelling, I’m not a native English speaker or really good at foreign languages either so it might be bad.
Scorpio is pretty much the INFJ sign, however, just because a person has Scorpio in their birth chart doesn’t make them an INFJ. INFPs, ENFJs, and anyone else can have Scorpio in their chart. Same goes for all the other signs.
I think I’m an INFJ but I’m still not completely sure about that. I possibly could be an INTJ or INFP as well or maybe even ENFJ
Yes, true, and your astrology is not going to tell us which one it is.
My sun sign is virgo, moon sign capricorn and rising sing scorpio. And thats like… I don’t know, propably unlucky?
It’s not the most happiest combination of signs, true. It’s good for being skeptical though. 🙂
But anyway for me it would be important to enjoy my life too and not just work all the time. I don’t even like it how people are supposed to achieve all kinds of concrete things or have skills in order to be validated.
I don’t know what that has to do with this article. No comment.
I have Venus in Libra though and Mars in Gemini. So it would be interesting to read, if you had something to say about this combination and does it sound like an INFJ female to you or something else.
You sound like an INFP. But, I can’t be sure. I’m not getting INFJ from your comment, no. And like I said, the astrology doesn’t matter in determining your type. It would only amend your type, not determine it.
Thank you for your time. And sorry about spelling, I’m not a native English speaker or really good at foreign languages either so it might be bad.
Apology accepted 😉
“have skills in order to be validated.”
you sound like an infp to me too. you sound like me.
One night I typed in “mbti” and “astrology” into the search engine, just for shits and giggles, and this site came up. I’d always thought I was an INFP but apparently I’m an INFJ, at least according to Blake. I eventually read this article and immediately think, “Isn’t every woman like this?” Then I remember that most of my girlfriends are partnered (a normal thing at our age), and I’m… not. So, kind of depressing. I can’t imagine the polyamory thing, though. I can’t even muster up a crush on more than one man at a time. I always wish I was one of those women that could play off two men at one time, although of course ultimately picking the best for keeps. Does this mean I’m not really this elusive INFJ woman? Right now I’m in love with the ENTP Scorpio that broke up with me not too long ago, because he didn’t think I was serious enough about him (I’m a Gemini, so…). Of course, now I can’t stop thinking about him, but I know he expects me to make the move to get him back. Except, why should he get to dump me then have me beg for him back? At first I thought this whole INFJ thing was cool, but now, maybe not so much. I’d like to go back to being an INFP.
Fuck yes, thank you! I realize I’m about 3 years late to this article but when I read it, I felt like someone “got it” and called me out on my dark core. Im so glad that someone has called out INFJ’s for the pieces of shit that we are, deep down. This is why I’m never satisfied. This is why I’m attracted to the most dominant(yet intelligent)man I can find and I still feel the urge to devour him because he’s not dominant enough. And even the rare person who makes me want to submit can never satify me for long. I want more and more and they end up exhausted. Or more likely, I feel like they’re not capable of keeping up and I then check out.
Wow, I realize I sound really dark and shallow in what I wrote above. I’m obviously not like this in real life. I’m actually quite warm….effervescent even! Im always trying to make people feel comfortable. I use my Fe like my armor. People routinely call me “the nicest person they know.” I genuinely blush when I’m given compliments. I work in health care and helping people feels so good. I love connecting with people. They start telling me about all of their problems. I’m sure a great listener blah blah blah. I do that to assuage the guilt that is always lurking beneath the surface. That I’m an imposter. That I care more about humanity as a whole than individual people and their petty problems. That I love the beginnings of friendships and relationships but fear that as they get to know me more they will like me less.
Anyway, I’m rambling now but just wanted to thank you for your candor and willingness to peel back the layers of the INFJ. It’s wonderful to see all these thoughts that are constantly swirling around in my head translated into something coherent. It’s such a relief.
I do not particularly like the fact that we can mostly find the positive aspect of an infj présentée in an article. I do like to see the bad side as well because it allows he infj to understand how other people see them. And if the goal of the infj is to improve oneself and his/her relationship with other people, the infj can introspect and acknowledge the flaws that are inculcated in him/herself.
However, I am not sure that the description depicted in this article is very accurate. It is quite emotional and maybe extremely personal. Thus, from what I have read on forums, Quora, psychology books, psychology website, and YouTube personalities, and also from my own experience, being in a relationship with an infj can be quite difficult. At least with the infjs who are not mature yet.
Let’s look at a relationship with an immature infj. From my own experience, this could be biased but I have observed that I was very manipulative and I also had this tendency to create drama just to get the attention. I understood my partners and their wants. I also wanted to feel loved with such a passion that no one had ever felt before. I was putting my self esteem and worth on that person. But I should also admit that my partners were also smarter than me. They were even more manipulative and narcissistic. They were also extreme liars. In this case, my game always ended in me having my feelings crushed. It was a flood of emotions that I could not control. I would provoke drama and then cry because I could not believe that I would do something so bad and that I would hurt people so much. Thus, I took a break in order to fix what was wrong with me. I hated the fact that I was so manipulative and from there I promised myself to never ever in my life manipulate people to get what I want. I also stopped creating drama because it not only hurt me to see my dark side, but it also hurt those around me. On top of that, when those around me were hurt by my actions, i used to feel so bad because I could see that I was able to hurt someone willingly by using their weaknesses. I hated myself for that. Thus I decided to keep my pain inside and try to understand those around me instead of hurting a bunch of people with my dramas. I also liked to be dominated by men in order to fight back and feel myself powerful. Just like you said, I liked to be submissive but also powerful in my submission… I still like to be submissive but I won’t admit it since I appear to be really strong now. Anyways! Through time I have changed and I became an ok infj with flaws that are less narcissistic, less codependent, and less dangerous than I used to be.
I am not sure if my personality changed to become that of an infj or if I changed to become a better infj, a better human being. After all, Hitler was an infj as it seems. I recently knew about my personality and from people I have met recently, I started to realize why I was a bad partner and why my relationship never worked.
This example will be for a less messy, less immature infj. This example will describe a most likely healthy infj.
I changed to become someone who would try to understand people in order to create an harmonious relationship between myself and them. I hate drama, I hate conflict, and I will do whatever possible to stop any drama from coming. I will go to the point of sacrificing my own happiness in order to maintain harmony and to ensure that people around me are happy. I would help people with open heart. I would sacrifice a lot of me to let them shine. I became very agreeable and conscientious. My life was to make sacrifices, sacrifices, and sacrifices. My own wants were discarded to promote that of other people around me. Up until a guy that I really liked told me that I was a wall. This is to say that I don’t let people in and I don’t share anything about myself. I just help and help and help but I never want to receive help. And then he started to assume things about me that were not true. For most people my sacrifices were taken for granted up until after many years I decided to voice my opinions because I was fed up. And then friends started to say that I was selfish because they could no longer receive the praise and docile demeanor that I had.
These patterns can show that infjs are extreme. And now for a fact, from my own experiences, from many experiences I have learned online and watched on YouTube, I can say that I know why a relationship with an infj can be difficult. I also understand other people’s point of view since I was blind to them.
It took a lot of people to tell me that I was a “wall” to actually realize that I was one. I was and am still so scared to share or I feel or to show my vulnerabilities that people around me don’t know who I am. And even myself don’t know who I am since I acted the way people wanted me to be in order to maintain harmony. Being in a relationship with an infj is like being in a relationship with a wall. You share and share your vulnerabilities with us, we try to understand you until we do understand you. Then our next step is that we try to fix your issues in order to make you happy. Now! What I have learned is that an infj has to be able to show their vulnerabilities in order to form intimacy. Yes we do understand other people and we always try to do that, but sometimes instead of going to a corner to process our emotion and our hurt, maybe us infj should just say what we feel. Again, people will have the tendency that the infj leave and ghost them because they are upset and being manipulative, but that is not true. They do that because they want to understands their own emotions and why they feel like that. They want to understand if what they feel isn’t legitimate or if what they feel is just selfish because they can be wrong. They want to speculate on why the person acts like that, etc… they reflect. Once they are done thinking, the anger is tamed or subsided. The infj decides to live peacefully with that person without ever telling that’s person how hurt they are.
Guess what?! This is not good because wherever the Infjs is not show heirs vulnerability and the same problem can occur again in order to create bitterness that will destroy the relationship. Why are we like that? Most of the time it is because we don’t want rob hurt the other person or we don’t understand what’s we are feeling. It is new to us. We don’t know how to verbalize it. It’s just complicated.
Well I am writing too much I think. So I am going to just expose what makes the relationship die and toxic.
2.- the infj does not build boundaries since hey don’t be know what are their boundaries. Keep in mind that infjs are very agreeableness people.
3.- infjs are very stubborn
4.- infjs have to test their partners first before they open up and show how they really feel. That is frustrating to other people
5.- the infjs need alone times that people who are not introverted cannot understand.
Anyways! Overall each actions that someone does has an explanation behind it. The only way we can know what really happens is if we ask the person. Our assumptions are just fallacies. Assuming that someone is selfish because for once In their time with you, they tell you that you might be wrong and they understand why your ex-friends acted the way she acted ; assuming that’s the infj wants rob hurt you or doesn’t not care because they are unable to express their emotion, Espescially in front of a bunch of people; assuming anything and everything about someone without seeing their side is plain wrong. I am not saying that infjs are perfect. We are not. There is always a reason behind our actions. ANd their I say always a reason why people react to our actions the way they react. That is why in relationship communication is key; Manipulations and lies are always bad; and dramas only push those we love away.
Infj women in love are just like any other women but have flaws that are legitimate or have flaws that they should work on to improve the way they interact with others. Relationships are for growth. And to love is to act in ways in which we learn to respect ou partners and their boundaries. To love is to respond to the demand of our partners and not what we believe that they want. To love is to communicate, to Ben kind, to be compassionate, to be vulnerable, and to express anger in a respectful way without envy, jealousy, and bitterness. To love is not to manipulate.
In general, infjs are people who WANT and WORK for the happiness of other people before theirs. They don’t mean to hurt. They are certainly not selfish. They might be too agreeable so you cannot see where they stand for. But if you want flaws of infjs, stubbornness, sensitivity to criticism, bottling emotions, hiding their vulnerabilities, acting as if everything is ok, and completely ignoring you because you have hurt them (you don’t know that you have hurt them and they just forget that you exist) are some of the flaws orb the infjs. Of most infjs as a matter of fact. The manipulation, dramas, lies etc… are from infjs in the making or infjs who have yet to learn to be kinder, more mature, and Moreno compassionate
This is gonna be potentially very triggery so if you’re not ready for some ENTP bluntness and truth I wouldn’t read this.
Tldr: The ENTP/INFJ relationship is a toxic mess, consisting of a narcissist and a borderline/avoidant magnetically attracted to each other.
The ENTP’s brain is fascinating, the INFJ’s heart is a mystery. So why are these two types so hopelessly attracted to each other? Why does the relationship start off so explosively?
So here is my THEORY: it’s a case of the classic “opposites attract”. Some evidence first. I’ll explain why the pathological INFj is Avoidant/BPD (1), then explain why the pathological ENTP is a narcissist (2) and then tie it together explaining why they both attract each other (3).
Have a read of this description for the INFJ: (ignore the BS and read the juicy suff at the bottom that gives details regarding “Typical Beliefs” and “Disorder perspective”. It should take 2 mins.
https://www.the16types.info/info/types/INFJ.htm
In summary this website proposes that the pathological INFJ is actually has Avoidant personality disorder. Yikes. Which from research is very highly co-morbid with Borderline Personality Disorder too. So here we have a very “sensitive” INFJ that actually is suffering from a lot of emotionally volatile personality disorders. Who knew. But hang on you might be thinking why am I attacking INFJ’s. I’m not. Just providing a perspective. You can leave if you’d like. Now onto the notorious ENTP.
2) Same story, read the “Typical Beliefs” and “Disorder perspective”.
https://www.the16types.info/info/types/ENTP.htm
To summarise: this website proposes that the pathological ENTP actually has Compensatory Narcissistic personality disorder. Kinda saw it coming tbh. I haven’t crossed notes with other ENTP’s but any INFJ’s been a relationship with ENTP’s and notice the lack of emotional intimacy with them? Yeah it’s likely because there’s something up. Anyways, I understand this is all very extreme so think over it.Take a day or two.
3) Now if you’re still here, you’re probably vehemently disagreeing with everything I’ve proposed so far. Which is fair. Thanks for your attention. It was a good ride. But if you think there’s something here, well have an article that explains the relationship between them. It’s a long one but extremely opening,
https://sharischreiber.com/havent-we-met-before/
Conclusion: push-pull, power struggles, and overall just a toxic mess.
Phew, that was long.
p.s. Your welcome
Hi there, I don’t agree with most of what you said.
1. ENTP is not the narcissistic personality type. Of the two, INFJ is more of a narcissistic. At any rate, I consider narcissism an Ni thing, with the ENFJ or ENTJ being the top two contenders for the title. I suppose INFJ would be more of a covert narcissist because…introversion.
2. INFJ is not at all borderline. Avoidant yes. INFP would be the borderline type if I had to assign to one type.
3. ENTP is the ADD type. They may have the pathology of the clown. They can’t take anything seriously. They treat people and things as a game. However, this is not narcissism. There is no self-orientation in ENTP, thus they can’t be narcissists. Though I suppose they might appear so by their irresponsible behavior, it has nothing to do with true narcissism.
I agree that that the INFJ is more narcissistic. They are covert narcissists masking themselves as ’empaths’ etc. They are least like what you expect them to be. However the love nature you describe above, closely mirrors what the BPD love nature is like. Wanting control, devaluing others who love them etc tbh I’m still trying to pinpoint what is going on with the INFJ as I’m not sure what is up with them. They are a mystery for sure .
However I’m confident ENTP’S are narcissists. The classic grandiose and overt type. I say that as an ENTP myself. We are some attention seeking people. Whether that is through the form of a clown etc. We need attention. That closely correlates with the concept of narcissistic supply. Moreover we tend to be very cerebral = cerebral narcs. We are also perfectionists and have either too much confidence bordering on arrogance or little to 0 self esteem. Here’s a study that showed ENTP’s to be the most psychopathic types (dark triad trait along with narcissism).
https://worldofanentp.tumblr.com/post/96219034302/psychopathic-type
This is all ofcourse a theory but the pieces seem to fit. The natural partner OF NPD is BPD
There’s no way ENFJ is the least psychopathic of all types!
Anyway, whatever. Don’t want to discuss it anymore than what I already said. I’ve written a lot of articles and I think my views on the types and cognitive functions etc. are clear. I don’t think of ENTP as the most psychopathic type. Many of them actually have a strange kind of empathy, which is akin to the universe patting you on the back or something. They are certainly not more psychopathic than an ENFJ, at least the way I think of psychopaths (tendency to commit acts of violence is in there). ENTP is not really violent. They are not murderers or rapists. They can be great at gaming the system, unscrupulous salesmen, socially manipulative and that sort of thing. Sociopathic. Yeah. But, let me put it this way…there is not a mean bone in the ENTP’s body. (Virtually) nothing they do is out of malice. They can be obnoxious, infuriating, exasperating and just generally “impossible human beings” (mostly the more extreme men of this type), but it’s all done out of an absolute innocence. And I notice that most ENTPs have a general concern for humanity thing going on. In many ways, I think they are anti-narcissistic. But maybe I haven’t met the right ones. All the ones I’ve known are pretty positive and unselfish and…well, not grotesquely self-absorbed like many other humans. They are curious about many things and interested in life in all its facets. They’re kind, even.
Can’t say the same thing about INFJ as a general tenor.
And ENFJ!
Nigga please.
That self-reporting test is definitely off in some way in my book. For one thing, it is obvious that Fe is getting a false ride as “the nice function”. The least sociopathic. No, this is wrong. As a matter of non-fact, Te is likely to be more rule-abiding and by-the-book and less sociopathic than Fe. Though, either, in the service of Ni can be psychopathic. It’s really Ni that is the pathological function, whether we are talking bipolar, schizophrenia, socio/psychopathy, narcissism. Add Ni to stuff and it becomes “abnormal”.
See what I’m saying, bro?
You seem like a clever ENTP too. Do you find that you are constantly searching for identity? Have you found that ADD helps explain your brain? I’m lost, man. Searching for some kind of an explanation to my personality. It’s like I have no kind of stable personality. Definitely not normal. I think there is something up for sure. I was browsing psych forum and found a lot of NPD’s scored ENTP so gravitated towards that. But I definitely don’t think ENTP’s are neurotypical – we are very chameleon-like and I’m searching for an answer to that. Like wtf is wrong with us. I took the big five test and scored like 0 on conscientiousness which is really messing with my life and having a hyperactive brain that never shuts up is definitely a pain or I haven’t yet figured out how to use it effectively yet. I’ve lately started theorizing that we are hunters in a farmers world. See pic
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Dezg7cNEN-eFL5kuP-sHtj9NMXW9j4XT
So yeah two things:
1. What have you found identity in?
2. How are you using your personality type effectively and succeding?
You seem like a clever ENTP too. Do you find that you are constantly searching for identity? Have you found that ADD helps explain your brain?
Yes, ADD is the one thing I would say that I got. Read Readless Memoirs. I used to constantly search for identity but then I realized The Self is a Toy and as such is not so much a discovery as it is a creation.
I definitely don’t think ENTP’s are neurotypical
I’m gonna go ahead and agree with that because like wtf yeah of course
I took the big five test and scored like 0 on conscientiousness
Hahaha! That’s hilarious!
and having a hyperactive brain that never shuts up is definitely a pain or I haven’t yet figured out how to use it effectively yet.
Yeah, I have that big-time, so I write articles and shit about shit I know that nobody gives a shit about it (not completely true because I’m famous in Japan).
I think that ENTP has to do stuff they’re interested in for a living and they need to keep it eclectic. Versatile, varied, variety. The novelty factor needs to stay high or else they get bored and can’t pay attention.
I’ve lately started theorizing that we are hunters in a farmers world.
Well stop theorizing and start believing it! I have seen this hunter-in-a-farmer-world analogy before and I totally experience ADD that way. Unless there is the prospect of bagging some piece of game, I fall asleep. Not a plodder or a drudger (Si).
I think ENTPs are inevitably social creatures. They need people and need to interact and fuck with people. This makes them different from INTP. They need to fuck with the system, game the system, explore and fuck with social dynamics, kinda like how Socrates was considered “the gadfly of Athens”. I think that is the natural role of ENTP. Socrates never wrote anything down, was not a bookish guy (Plato did that for him), and liked to wander around the body politic and question people on their fundamental assumptions about what they think they know.
Nobody knows nothing. That’s a good starting point for ENTP.
ENTP is also related to the concept of The Fool archetype in Tarot deck, which is represented by number zero and the absolute innocence of someone who has zero experience of life. Because it is experience which makes people assume that they know things (among other things).
ENTP is very special in this manner of zero built-in assumptions combined with a lack of ego regarding whether they are right or wrong combined with an absolute detached egoless curiosity about the world (cosmos, universe etc.).
Like, zero conscience in a sense, yes, because they are pre-moral. They are pre-everything. They are the pre.
ENTP is like god or the universe archetype. And god is a fool.
Hahaha, interesting perspective man, Definitely the novelty factor is a boon and curse.
Yeah, we need people or we get depressed. Fucking shit up is kind of our forte. We abhor rules and formality.
That’s cool, we are definitely fools. Feel like ENTP’s are more Ferris Bueller types.
What do you think of societal definitions of guys as being heroes? Courage, fortitude, and strength and all that malarkey surrounding masculinity. Do you feel the need to fit into these stereotypes? I don’t even know why I’m asking this because I say be whoever the fuck you want to be. I guess what I’m asking is do we ever grow up? Cause being childish comes naturally to me but let’s be real we live in a dominance hierarchy or pecking order amongst men and being childish is a weird strategy for sure when everyone is busy being an adult haha. Like we can’t live our life chasing danger and playing around. Or can we?
I’m an INFJ, and a woman. I am not saying what you said in the article is right, nor wrong. This is only from your perspective, and it’s not always right. This MBTI things help us to understand type of personality, but again we are talking about human here, a very dynamic creature, that can’t be generalized based on one particular MBTI personality type. We are social animals that personality also shaped and influenced by the experiences, society, culture, values, environment around us. Your perspective might be relevant to some people in your society, who maybe have similiar experiences, culture or value, but not every INFJ in this world live in the same way as INFJ you observed, at least not in the East of the world. That’s only your opinion, and again it can be wrong.
Btw, It’s been 3 years since you posted it, do you still think the same?
It’s closer to 4 years. And yes.
This reminds me of my relationship with an INFP. And no, it’s not a mistyped INFJ. I was an mistyped INFJ. I didn’t knew what his type is, but based on one faulty reading on about ENTP’s eye movements, I typed him as an ENTP. Turns out he was an INFP which explains the same vibe as my bff, who I had a hard time typing as well. They both had dark, broody and mean vibe, except my ex’s was stronger and more “bad news”.
I mistyped as an INFP because the test is deliberately faulty, whether the test maker knew it or not. Perhaps it was even messed with but people didn’t knew it.
Just a theory.
Anyway, got distracted, what I meant to say was that my ex is an INFP, never told me his type but I had to type him myself and for some reason he got obsessed with it, based on how he posts about it on r/entp. I recognize his writing style elsewhere.
-Formerly mistyped INFJ as an INFP.
“She doesn’t want understanding. She wants to be violated and made to serve to someone that she can believe in as a source of power and will.”
But isn’t that what ONLY someone who truly understands her on the deepest level could do?
Not just someone violating her body. But someone who understands her, then choses to violate her partly BECAUSE of that understanding (and partly because they WANT to). She wants him to do it (the violating), but she wants him to do it because he understands she needs it and because he fucking wants to. No?
The chances of this occurring might be lower than hell freezing over. (hence, polyamory solution) But isn’t that what she really wants? It IS to be understood to be truly violated by someone who understands that that’s what you need.
Sorry, just reading this for the second time and beginning to understand it a bit better. I think anyways.
No matter what type I am, I resonate with this article a lot. Wish I didn’t. But I do.
I think the other solution to this conundrum (besides some form of polyamory) is for Blake to just fuck all INFJ women. These articles aren’t enough….what they really want is for you to fuck them.
Deep down you have to know that, right Blake?
Oh, and by the way. If you decide to do this, I would pay good money to watch. Forget consultations 😉
Carlie, you are feeling so spot-on to me! Or should I say, you’re hitting the spot…Don’t stop.
The way I’m picturing this understanding you speak of, is not the kind of crystal clear, intellectualized, articulated understanding, but rather, an undercurrent of the lizard-brain variety that is understood in grunts and moans. Yessss….
Oh Andrea. Darlin. If you have considered it, you should definitely join the maze officially. Subscribe and be a starling. I guarantee you’d enjoy it
Well, i think that is what you get when you don’t know how to handle what i call a real woman.
My wife, who is an INFJ, is the most loving, caring, poetic and romantic person I’ve ever met. She makes my life wonderful for more than 15 years now and I never felt as supported as I am now.
Honestly guys, don’t listen to the opinion that is up there because this is what can happen when a woman as wonderful as an INFJ get hurt and not valued for her goodness.
So yes, they are special, they have flaws and insecurities like all the other types, but when they open up to you, you will never want to let them go and you are on the way to the best relationship of your life.
When she showed me your description she was really shocked and i can understand her because come on… Have you been door slamed by one of them or what?
Anyways I want to react to this because, as an INTP, i want to give an external opinion and defend the mother of my kids and all the INFJ women who, in my humble opinion, have the most beautiful soul of them all.
Don’t ever take them for granted and you will be loved and cherished forever, they are 1% of the population and believe me, if you meet one, you just met The Woman.
I’m an INFJ female and I have to say that’s pretty accurate.. How did you figure all this out?
Intuition, theory, and experience.
As an ENTP male, I’ve had the experience of dating two INFJ women. I have to say that this description of them is totally accurate. In both instances the INFJs turned out to be actual covert narcissists. My impression is that INFJs probably are what the rest of the world would call covert narcs. Do you agree with this Blake? Or is unfair to label them all this way from your experience?
You are correct in your assessment that I was immune to their poisonous Fi ID but seriously, if they’re just outright abusive how can you recommend an ENTP be with them? Your brutally honest insight would be much appreciated.
INFJ can fit the covert narc label fairly well, if we take it as a continuum and with a grain of salt. Certainly not all, or even most INFJs would fit the diagnostic criteria for narcissism. But if viewing narcissism as a continuum, yeah, they fall on it pretty nicely, and pretty covertly. INFJs are pretty self-oriented despite what they may project when they are trying to mate.
You are correct in your assessment that I was immune to their poisonous Fi ID but seriously, if they’re just outright abusive how can you recommend an ENTP be with them?
They gotta be with someone! ENTP is a good though unlikely match for INFJ. Probaly the reason I said it is because of the general immunity of ENTP to the dynamics described in this article. Theoretically, it strikes me as the perfect match.
ENTP will not be able to satisfy an INFJ woman at this level I describe but they may make it a non-issue…for a time, at least.
I think ultimately that it does need to be satisfied though, and it will most likely to be satisfied by someone with a similar psychology (INFJ) but in a different polarity (positive to negative or vice-versa).
I’m writing about this with the Black Moon stuff on my site.
In the meantime, an ENTP may be a good match because it’s sorta like taking a vacation from all that shit (for an INFJ). But eventually you gonna wanna return home and there will be the same shit still waiting for you. ENTP can’t do nothing about that for INFJ. They are pretty much immune and oblivious to all that poison. Doesn’t satisfy that deep itch of INFJ either.
Interesting. Thanks for your input Blake. I found this particular article interesting as well due to your recommendation that INFJs should consider polyamory. I’m a nonmonogamous individual myself so this particular lifestyle is actually how I live. I think ENTPs are some of the more likely types to consider polyamory or nonmonogamy in general as a lifestyle choice.
I can see having an INFJ in my life as a partner. I really do like them a lot as individuals. Their issue is when they lock onto you as their “soulmate”… then the shit show for them begins and they tend to just ruin it for themselves. I doubt I could ever cohabitate with one though. I personally don’t think they should cohabitate with anyone for that matter. However, I can quite easily see things working with them if I have emotional distance from them. See them… go off on one of my adventures and then come back again.
That could work well… But how many INFJs would actually take this advice? Their desire for perfection and the “ideal” completely blinds them to reality a lot of time.
Really like your content and how you seem to “get” ENTPs too. You got any plans to put up more ENTP related stuff?
What kind of ENTP stuff you wanna see?
It sounds as if you’ve backtracked a little on your initial conclusions in the article Blake?
This is my take on it. I’m an ENTP myself and I’ve had many encounters/relations with INFJs. Personally, I think your initial conclusions were correct. Nobody will ever be able to satisfy the deep Fi itch an INFJ has, not even another INFJ. Two INFJs together would make a terrible combination where they would simply end up destroying each other. The INFJ female will most likely come out on top because the negative aspects of female nature are very much protected and excused by society at large.
From a theoretical point of view, ENTP is the best match for INFJ. However, we are talking about cognitive functions here and personality type NOT societally programmed and endorsed relationship models. INFJs will always struggle in deep, intimate one to one relationships for the exact reasons you described above.
The key to success between INFJ and ENTP is to go against societal expectations. The ENTP can not be chained down and needs freedom and the INFJ needs to focus their efforts on their purpose in life i.e. their writing, counseling etc. The INFJ must accept that nobody is their “soulmate” and to take that intensity off the ENTP. By doing that both types can be extremely satisfied in the long term.
It is not for any other human to satisfy or “fix” an INFJ. They must try their best to find peace within and realise that they are different to most people.
The exact dynamic I described above is exactly what is going on in my life. I met this INFJ many years ago and at first she tried to lock me down in a “soulmate” bond. This ended up being disastrous and we didn’t speak for several years. Out of the blue we bumped into each other again and commenced in an “unspoken” relationship where things were far more relaxed. She is now a successful writer and focuses her intensity on her craft and I’m a successful entrepreneur. We meet up and just have a great time. Sometimes we go months without seeing each other but the dynamic works great. It truly is the “perfect” relationship. She has come to firmly accept that marriage is out of the question for her and doesn’t ever want to co-habitate with partners. It just… works.
Anyway, those are my 2 cents. I’ll let the INFJs here decide for themselves but honestly I think this is the best way for INFJs to find happiness and purpose in life. And an ENTP is the best long-term companion for the journey.
It sounds as if you’ve backtracked a little on your initial conclusions in the article Blake?
Yes, since this article I have come up with subtypes. It is too simplistic to say that an ENTP is the perfect partner for INFJ, though I’m happy to hear that you found a way to be in a satisfying relationship with an INFJ.
In a nutshell, I think Sun-Moon interchanges from a MB POV are probaly the best for long-term relationship (marriage) compatibility.
So, INFJ suns with INFJ moons, in this case, particularly if the female is the INFJ moon to the male’s INFJ sun. Read Prelude to the Black Moon to understand what I’m saying regarding the sun and moon bit.
Is that what you meant when you said I was backtracking on my initial conclusions? Did you mean specifically about ENTP being perfect compatibility partner for INFJ?
Honestly, I love this article but I was not convinced that entps are infjs soul mates. Even though I have experienced exactly what you have written – they successfully annihilate/compensate Fi id aspects of infj. I know this entp woman, and our friendship was all light and fun – she wanted to play games with me, I don’t play games, so she made game out of this very thing itself – she wins if she makes me play. Nevertheless it is true that my Fi is »silent« when I am with her, but it comes back when I am alone. It can’t be eliminated. Only silenced. But with regards to soulmate concept – should infj silence Fi? (There is also something else, more obvious in my relationship with male entp friends. They enjoy this type of Ti, which you call Gemini Ti (computer sciences) and I only enjoy that which you call Aquarian Ti, humanistic Ti – I love to Ti the shit out of human nature)
But infj sun with infj moon?
One of the premises of this article was that »INFJ woman (wants) introjection of man. Swallowing, taking in whole. Like an intimacy that is an effrontery.« I will assume this is true for infj moon type in relationship. From here on I write as infj male and I consider myself infj solar type (I don’t have exact knowledge of overlapping between sun-male moon-female categories, but I will write as sun-male overlapping in sky symbolism and moon-female in chthonic symbolism).
This is all fresh for me, as what I am writing here are thoughts born in me over last few days.
I will start with Ni. I completely agree that Ni is spiritual in its nature. It is cognitive function, trying to penetrate to the very essence of all things – and essence is to me like singularity in black hole – something where space-time collapses in eternity. It is not cause and effect, as cause and effect make sense only in space-time. And as it is something that transcends space-time, it is something infj will have trouble with – as infj will feel need to express his/her essence, but expression can only take place in space-time.
I need to insert quote here, it is bible quote which Dostoevsky uses as intro in Brothers Karamazov:
“Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.”
I think this is exact existential state of infj solar type. He feels his spiritual essence intensely, but cannot express it. So he feels as seed of his own spiritual nature – he feels his own potential, but needs to “die” so he can be formed. He needs to descend into chthonic world. And now you probably already know, where I am getting at. Infj solar type needs infj chthonic type. He needs infj woman. He needs to be introjected.
Descent into chthonic world means dying, but it is also potential promise of rebirth – chronically fertility, transformation. So you say infj woman wants to introject her man. But I as infj man need to be introjected. And yes, every descent into underworld is dangerous – it is better to avoid it. But infj man can’t, because he feels his own potential to heavily. He needs to produce many seed. But needs chthonic infj, infj woman, so he can achieve his own transformation. Not any woman can give him that. Actually – I think – all woman offer him dying, but only infj woman can offer him rebirth, only infj woman will introject him, devour him, but then also transform him.
I will give another example, again mythological. When I say infj man feels like seed of his own potential, is this the same as being Logos. But Logos is no flesh. Logos needs woman (Mary) to become flesh, to get form, to become Jesus. It is how I feel, I feel as logos, but I also feel formless. It’s like in your article that infj could rule the world, if they acted. Well I can’t act. I live in eternity. I am divine logos, but formless. I can’t act without form. But my action must express my core essence – I need to grow out of that seed and my form needs to express me at my core. And to get that form, I need to go into the underworld, which chthonic-moon infj offers.
So when you write that infj woman will want to introject her man and devour him, yes. But I think she needs more, she needs to create, chthonic power is power not only of destruction, but also of creation. Most men – well they don’t want to be devoured and don’t feel need to be born anew. Infj man gives her that what she needs most, opportunity for spiritual (pro)creation – but it also is what he need most. They need each other. So infj man and infj woman actualise in each other – father sky meets mother earth.
This is all fresh realization and I am not sure about all of it. In a sense, it overlaps with Jungs concept of anima work – which leads to actualized Self. But I know I always try to find depth in woman. I need to find it. And this probably means I wanted to be introjected, devoured and transformed all along. And I have rejected every woman who could not introject me down to her core. Infj woman wants to introject man down to her core? Well I dare her to try introject me, I am not intimidated by her depths and her chthonic nature 😉
So to summarise – infjs are spiritual, spiritual (for me) is about expressing essence, which is always creative expression. So for infj will act only, if action is of spiritual nature, if he is expressing himself and creating. But to create, sky seed of solar infj needs to fall in, die and be reborn again in chthonic infj. So together they can help express each other’s deepest nature which results in spiritual creation. I think it is for that very reason an existential need for soulmate in infjs – their expression, their action, must be spiritual creation in flesh.
All of this is open for discussion – I post this here because I am also trying to make sense out of myself. And it is completely possible that I have not understand your sun–moon concept correctly.
And for conclusion: please excuse my broken english, it’s been some time since I have written anything in this language.
+ thank you Blake for your insights, it is a real pleasure to read your mbti stuff.
I’m not sure if back-tracking is necessarily the correct term but rather you have changed your mind! I was also referring to some of the other conclusions you have made several times on this site. That INFJ is the least likely of all types to be successful in a long-term relationship, should consider polyamory or a similar type of non-societal endorsed relationship model etc.
It’s funny because I only started getting into astrology very recently (thanks to this particular INFJ) and used the wonder of my Ne to try and see if I could connect the dots between MBTI and astrology. I then stumbled upon your site and voila! There we go!
I then read this article and found every single thing you’ve said to be totally accurate in my dealings with them over the past 15 years. I came to pretty much the same conclusions as you. Anyway, I showed my INFJ partner this article and she was jaw-dropped at how accurate it was at describing her.
I’m not the astrology expert, so I won’t debate you on your theory. Though I’m very interested in reading more about the Black Moon stuff and your subtypes. The reason I said I don’t think an INFJ-INFJ pairing is particularly ideal is for these reasons:-
1) INFJs are incredibly rare anyway and the majority who think they are are actually mistypes. This means that an INFJ-INFJ pairing would be even more rare to come by.
2) Every INFJ-INFJ pairing I have ever witnessed in real-life has ended very badly. I’ve also noticed that the majority of female INFJs I have known are simply not that interested in being with a male INFJ. I showed my partner this article a few days ago and her response was “Ewwww, never in a million years could I ever be attracted to an INFJ man…” The INFJ men I know also don’t seem to gravitate much to INFJ women either. They seem to enjoy chasing the ENTP women.
What I’m saying is not necessarily definitive and I’m not claiming to be the expert here. This is simply my intuition and experience combined with my knowledge of the functions. I’m open-minded to hearing more and being shown a different perspective though so I’ll continue reading!
Bless your sweet ENTP heart.
I should preface this by saying I don’t know what I’m talking about all that much.
And… in full disclosure, someone has ignited some scorpio moon defensive shit in me tonight.
Again, bless your heart.
However. Every now and then I have some insight that is, let’s say meaningful.
So, fuck it.
I’m letting that shit out. Tonight. On your shallow little ENTP soul.
Let’s start with how the fuck you would ever know what would satisfy an INFJ itch if you’ve never experienced it your fucking self.
That’s not a bad damn place to start.
And how about “the negative aspects of female nature are very much protected and excused by society at large”. Are you retarded or just a fucking cunt? Cause I’m pretty sure there are some pretty distinct examples in history of “negative aspects of female nature” not exactly being protected or fucking excused by society. I’m not going to provide you with examples if you don’t care to think about that a little more carefully on your own.
While “purpose in life” is obviously crucial for an INFJ, to think that will prevent them from needing or wanting a soulmate is immature and delusional at best. Your INFJ may be “extremely satisfied” in her career and also satisfied in her relationship with you… but to think she is EXTREMELY satisfied in her relationship with you I think is, at the very least, slightly delusional… especially in the long term.
She wants that fucking deep itch fulfilled in another soul, whether or not you will ever fucking realize it, my dear.
Soulmates are probably pretty fucking rare occurrences. INFJ soulmates, even more so. Don’t go taking your personal experience with an INFJ who has settled with your ENTP ass as proof of what INFJs want or need in general.
ENTPs could help pass the time pleasantly. Nothing more. In my pissed off opinion. 😁
Ooh carley, yes I can feel your Fi lava rage spewing! It’s entrancing to watch.
I think/hope gervin is just sharing the particular configuration that works for him and this INFJ. I agree that there needs to be an ENTP freedom/INFJ ‘focus on life purpose’ dynamic for them to work, with some varying degree of unconventionality. This unconventionality/deviation from societal expectations will vary, and I think that gervin and this INFJ have an arrangement that is further out on that bell curve of commitment. Doesn’t have to be the same for other ENTP/INFJ pairings.
I am proposing (ha) that one way that an INFJ can kinda scratch that deep itch, is for them to have an Fe (read: healthy) level of commitment with/from a partner (ENTP, in this case) who genuinely excites them. If that means lover, great, or husband/wife, great, so long as it’s what that ENTP wants too. I think it is not lost on and means a fuck ton (Fi) to an INFJ if an ENTP says, I wanna be with you, or I wanna marry you, precisely because if INFJs know what’s up, they know how much higher the hurdle is for an ENTP to clear to get there. My guess is when an ENTP wants to marry you, for example, they are not at all saying, “I’m willing to give up my freedom for you (conventional)” so much as they are saying “I want to be free, with you (unconventional)”. Receiving that genuine, albeit Fe, commitment from an ENTP, can translate to an experience that an INFJ can take with them into the subjective/personal realm of their heart/mind and scratch that Fi itch with. So, yes, an ENTP can’t accompany them there, but I don’t think they have to. Basically, ENTP gives INFJ an Fe love offering, and INFJ takes that offering and internalizes it alone for Fi itch-scratching.
I’ve heard a wisdom that says anyone who tries to commit to another person is not healthy; the healthy thing to do is to commit to the relationship (the dynamic) between you and the other person. That directs your energy away from inflicting it on that person directly and smothering them (Ni focus is particularly intense), and when directed indirectly at that person through the prism of the relationship dynamic, then it nurtures that commitment to shine/grow. I don’t think that INFJs intentionally ignore this advice (some might), I think they don’t KNOW this framework exists. You can’t do what you don’t know. If you become aware of this framework, then you can apply it 🙂
lmao, carley! I don’t know how Blake feels at this point about how much his insights about INFJ women in love apply to INFJ suns…If I would have to make a guess, I think it still does to a certain extent, but I have a feeling this shit applies much more to INFJ moons. I mean, wouldn’t the moon type affect how a woman responds and experiences a romantic relationship more than the sun type? I don’t know. Anyways, I will just happily wait until Blake’s next article to figure it out. Speaking of which…I completely respect Blake’s time and all, but…dude I’m dying!!!
Going back to the whole ENTP-INFJ thing, I’ve never been in an actual relationship with an ENTP, but I can easily foresee how an INFJ might be very happy with having an ENTP partner…However, it’d probably depend on the subtypes of both the ENTP and INFJ partners. I could imagine an ENTP with some sort of INFx bent and an INFJ with an NT moon getting along quite well for a very long time. Now this is just a personal testimony, but as an INFJ sun, I don’t count on the whole concept of “soulmates” all that much anyways. Not that I’m heartless or anything….Because of course, I do aspire to have beautiful, romantic relationships…I’ve just never attached the term “soulmate” to any of these fantasies. That is either due to my INTJ moon or my Asian upbringing which pretty much devalues romance in favour of practical marriage.
My speculation is that the “deep itch” may not be so deep depending on the INFJ sun woman. Personally, I could predict that a relationship with an ENTP might go really well with me. The only itch that won’t be satisfied is the sex. Me likes sex, and ENTPs will not bring me sexual satisfaction. Honestly, though. I think I can even do without that shit. ENTPs bring so many other things that make me happier, perhaps even more fulfilled than the whole romantic/sexual business. I guess I just don’t place that much importance on love/romance. Not that I don’t enjoy it. It’s more that I prefer being dedicated to a soul “project” or a soul “mission” and cry my fucking eyeballs out over that shit INFJ-Woman-in-Love style…but fuck NO, none of that energy is going to be poured into the impossible concept of a soul “mate.” However, I perfectly respect people who place high value in the soulmate ideal. It’s what gives birth to beautiful art.
….But let it just be said that I could be tripping or in severe denial. Ha! I won’t deny either of those possibilities.
Anyways, I think what you said probably applies to a sizeable proportion of INFJ sun women and probably all INFJ moon women. And you’re right, ENTPs are likely to be oblivious to the whole Fi thing in INFJs. However, it probably depends on the subtype and maturity of the ENTP. You might be surprised just how insightful ENTPs can be, provided that they are older and wiser and more attuned to their Fi superego. Not many make it to this end, but some do. And these rare species of ENTP might “understand” the Fi id, but not necessarily fulfil it. Which might be OK, because it could be understanding rather than love that an INFJ might be truly seeking. Having both would be AWESOME, but if I had a choice to make, I’d pick understanding over love. The understanding bit is probably something an INFJ is less likely to get than love, so it’s a rare treat not to be passed over. 😉
I was clearly burning a little hot last night.
Woops.
Ha.
But glad to see my rage stirred some others’ thoughts. Because other people are normally a fuckton better than me at the whole using-words-thing.
Ha.
Astrocalypso & schlops, I definitely agree with everyone about the importance of the freedom/purpose/unconventionality of the dynamic between an ETNP & INFJ in order for it to “work”. And I would guess that it is “working” just fine between gervin and his INFJ. Beautifully, perhaps. I also personally think that if his INFJ got even a whiff that she might be able to fulfill her deep itch with another soul, she would have the urge to jump on that opportunity in a fucking heartbeat.
Maybe not.
My point is basically this… you are so right astrocalypso… “an ENTP can’t accompany them there” AND “I don’t think they have to” either. BUT an INFJ (at least moon) still deeply or instinctively wants that from another soul. No matter how much INFJ-fulfillment they are achieving in their career or life or individually. And no matter how healthy and harmonic her/his relationships are with others. The INFJ may even be evolved and mature enough to realize the unlikelihood of obtaining that level of fulfillment through another soul. But I still think the desire lurks underneath.
…“internalizes it alone for FI itch-scratching”…. This is key, I think. Cause this is what INFJs do, right? We need it. We soak this shit up, absorb it from wherever we can get it, and use it to scratch our itch.
But there is no career, no creative pursuit, that I personally think would come close to the fulfillment an INFJ could experience in the scratching of her deep itch by a soulmate.
Which brings me to my next point… the word soulmate. It makes me fucking cringe. Because it carries with it all these connotations that just don’t fucking belong, if you ask me. I don’t think it’s really about love at fucking all. And I don’t think love is the itch that INFJs want scratched. It’s understanding. And that, in my opinion, is what a “soulmate” is. Someone who fucking understands your soul without even trying. And you understand theirs. It just fucking is. And if you think about it this way, of course you have to be the same for this to happen. You both would have to be INFJ in some way. To be able to have that understanding without effort or explanation. And goddamnit it nearly brings me to tears to think about. Because nothing could make you feel like you belong more than fucking that.
Shit.
“I mean, wouldn’t the moon type affect how a woman responds and experiences a romantic relationship more than the sun type?”
Schlops you gotta be on to something here. Cause I’m gonna be honest, in A LOT of what you wrote, my brain was screaming INTJ, INTJ, INTJ.
Ha. 😝
Finally…….astrocalypos, the wisdom you shared about committing to the relationship instead of the person is obviously good, healthy advice. I struggle a bit with the word “commit” in this context, but I can think of it in terms of where you focus your energy, and can get on board just fine. If you can apply this type of thinking to life in general, in a bigger picture, then you’re bound to turn into one pretty damn evolved, balanced, enlightened mother fucker. The way I see it though, is that the soulmate thing is outside of this… in addition to this… not necessarily something you commit to or focus energy on, but just fucking is. If you’re lucky enough to experience it, you can still live your life and your relationships using this wisdom you mention, while at the same time get that itch scratched like never before.😁
I promise I’ll let this lie eventually. But I’m clearly still worked up about it.
And as I’m quarantined and not working today, I have the time to continue to be an asshole here.
So. Here are a few more of my thoughts…
INFJs (at least lunar ones) want and need intensity and depth in their intimate relationships. Maybe they can have a happy and fulfilled life even if they don’t have that in their primary romantic relationship, but the need is there. AND I don’t think that need is INHERENTLY unhealthy or unrealistic.
Let me say that again.
I DON’T THINK THAT NEED IS INHERENTLY UNHEALTHY OR UNREALISTIC.
And that’s what pisses me off… When others, who don’t understand that need, make INFJs feel guilty or shitty in some way for having that need.
And yeah, INFJs should try “to find peace within”.
Guess what? ALL HUMANS SHOULD.
Maybe immature INFJs are particularly good at putting their shit on others…making others feel shitty for their own lack of peace.
But you know what? It takes two people to stay in an unhealthy relationship/dynamic. And if an ENTP, or anyone else for that matter, choses to continue to stay with someone who makes them feel “chained down” (or any other kind of undesirable way) they should take responsibility for their own decision there… instead of making an INFJ feel shitty about their needs for intensity and depth.
gervin, I was way too much of an asshole towards you before. I’m sorry for that. Your post stirred some shit in me and made me feel very defensive/protective towards your INFJ, when I was already in defensive mode about other things. That’s my bad.
And it’s lovely to hear that from your perspective your relationship feels “perfect”; it also sounds like it might be very satisfying for your INFJ. But, if she is an INFJ of some sort, it’s hard to imagine an “unspoken”, “relaxed” relationship where you go months without seeing the other person as “perfect” for her.
Very satisfying maybe, yes. The PERFECT relationship for her…. Very fucking hard to imagine.
Which is also fucking fine too. Relationships don’t have to be perfect. And INFJs are very capable of understanding that.
Sounds to me like your INFJ has not only found some peace within herself (and found intensity/depth elsewhere), but also has figured out exactly what you have to offer her. And maybe has come to some peace about that. Maybe she’s very satisfied with the dynamic you two share. This does not mean it’s the “perfect” relationship for her, or that she doesn’t still have a need or desire for intensity/depth from other souls.
You can also have no interest in marriage and never want to co-habitate with a partner and still deeply desire intensity/depth in your intimate relationships. And dare I say it, deeply crave a soul connection with another person. In fact, this makes a shit ton of sense to me.
Overall, to try to figure out what types are most compatible is an extremely complex question. And I do think subtypes help to explain that complexity.
ENTP energy I’m sure is very healthy for INFJs. In fact, all INFJs would probably benefit from being forced to be around ENTP energy on a regular basis. Does that mean ENTPs are the BEST long-term companion for them? Unless them ENTPs got some INFJ subtype shit going on, I think not. If we are truly talking BEST…IDEAL… then you gotta throw in some INFJ too baby.
I’m not one to say what an INFJ (sun) woman wants. But the moon, by nature, needs. And talking about an “itch” makes me think of a need more than a want. That’s probably because it was initially mentioned in reference to the INFJ woman’s Fi id. (….Which makes me wonder of the relationship between the id and the moon type, but I digress and it might just be my particular case that makes me feel that those two aspects could be closely related…)
Carley, I went back to what you wrote in another comment on “The Differences” when talking about “the difference between the Apollonian INFJ sun and the chthonic INFJ moon…” and saying that:
“The moon placement allows it to just BE”.
I couldn’t agree more with that, as well as with what you wrote about the soulmate:
“I don’t think it’s really about love at fucking all. (…) Someone who fucking understands your soul without even trying. And you understand theirs. It just fucking is.”
Oh, the cheesiness and the romanticizing of the soulmate and the big love (my soul is rolling her eyes in exasperation) …. are just so wrong! Sacrilegious. But because it has been reduced to chocolate and flowers and singing under the rainbow with puppy eyes it’s so easy to dismiss it, isn’t it?
You NEED in order to BE, you WANT in order to BECOME.
Isn’t a want something aspirational, reaching out, going beyond the self? The “healthy” everything, the balanced life, “healthy” relationships, the cookie-cutter prescriptions all seem to come from people who don’t have the same NEEDS.
As I was writing this, you threw another one in:
“I DON’T THINK THAT NEED IS INHERENTLY UNHEALTHY OR UNREALISTIC. “
I don’t even know why I’m still writing at this point. YES to everything!!! It’s so hard and frustrating to explain. YOU DON’T JUSTIFY A NEED. I think this is where the anger comes from, because it’s screaming from beneath: “Who are you to question me?!”
You can’t fight this and you SHOULDN’T.
Because when you manage to fulfill it, there are no words, no explanations, no justifications to do it justice. They say that romantic, passionate love doesn’t last? The flame is not the same, it might go up and down, look like it went out for a while, but it always reignites. It’s the connection, the two souls communicating, finding each other again. When you’ve known that, when you’ve had that, any attempt to “reason” you out of it will seem misguided.
Yes, I want love to death. Because if I’m not having it, then I’m already dead.
@Nur and @Carley
I tried to write two very long responses but I gave up, because you two kinda intimidated the shit out of me. LOL.
Anyways, all I’m gonna say is that my speculation is that Sun type still plays a role in a woman’s attitudes/behaviour in romantic relationships. Like I see an ENFJ flavour in Carley’s cry for that true intimate soul connection, and I think E3 ENFJ Sun and INFJ moon is a particularly special combination: the natural ENFJ orientation towards relationships/Dream Lover + the highly felt position and impossible desire for intimacy of the INFJ moon.
As for myself, sure, there is quite a bit of INTJ moon in me. However, I am still an INFJ sun at the end of the day, and the Fi id is a real thing I experience that my INTJ moon will time-to-time deny and shut off at important moments. This is all postulation at this point, but I think my INTJ moon modulates my…awareness of the Fi id and the extent to which this id is expressed. I do still resonate with the INFJ sensitivity to power, introjection of man, and sex daemon whore shit. However, I am probably more oblivious to this shit stirring up inside me than the average INFJ, and am less inclined to consciously pursue “soulmates” or put priority over that shit over other matters. I’d say for now….that Fi id is something I MUST experience, but is very difficult for my INTJ moon to accept…or deal with. Like I need to be superhuman, but I need to drown too. Something like that?! I don’t know. And yes, I do need to submit, but perhaps not to such an extreme extent. A large age gap or difference in intellectual ability might suffice for me, for example, and this is not just my own speculation but an idea suggested by two different INTJs who know me very well. These two INTJs also think a reversed power gap (putting me in favour) may work for me as well. This might be actually true, although it wouldn’t get my sexual juices flowing. Whatever it is, there should never be true equality, otherwise I will stab this motherfucker to death overtly and aggressively (note: NOT passively), because I am a competitive little bitch. I guess this is how my INFJ sensitivity to power is expressed: Kill thoroughly if equal. Be rough but sympathetic, tolerant, and even *adoring* towards my lessers. Be obedient to (and sexually turned on by) those I think are truly powerful. So yes. Still INFJ but with a slightly different twist.
Ugh! And you know what, I can see why Blake was hesitant to mention anything about subtypes because this shit gets confusing and would require in-depth understanding to be sure that one knows wtf he/she is doing with all this knowledge. Whatever. I am an INFJ Sun at the end of the day. I have feelings. I need to spread my love to the world. I have come to accept that.
And Nur, you took the words out of my mouth. I would love to know what is the interaction between the id of the Sun and the moon subtype.
The reason we go months without seeing each other is mostly down to her desire to be alone, go into monk mode and focus on her writing.
You’ve got to understand. Your INFJ desire to be by yourself will at some point override your desire to be in “soulmate” mode. It always happens and will always happen. It is simply part of your nature.
You will simply alienate your “soulmate” and cause them deep emotional pain and harm. This would include and especially be relevant to another INFJ. As an ENTP, we are pretty much immune to this.
Just take a look at any famous or renowned INFJ. Even in the heights of their success, they totally sucked in close, intimate relationships with people. I can’t even think of one that had that “perfect, soulmate” relationship. And I’ll tell you why… it’s because those relationships do not exist anywhere other than inside the subjective mind of each and every INFJ. And guess what happens when INFJs try and pair up? They both have TOTALLY DIFFERENT subjective expectations and feelings for what they consider a “soulmate” or “perfect” relationship. Every time I see it, I simply kick back, get the popcorn and watch as the two INFJs totally destroy each other. It is quite the show.
Thank-you. This very much captures a part of my relationship with my ENTP ex.
I’m really confused about your comment about ENTPs and sex? We are literally the kinkiest motherfuckers on the planet. I’m pretty sure kink exists because of ENTPs. Whatever your sexual fantasies are an ENTP will take you to the moon and back happily.
@gervin
Love your comments, thanks for your insights. I think it goes beyond kink. I think Blake said somewhere that ENTPs are like cartoon dominants. Yeah, this is how I would imagine it to be. Having said that, I said “imagine.” I’ve never been with an ENTP, so I can never be sure. My Ni predicts that sexually ENTP is not a match for me. And I think quite a few others complained about this somewhere in the Maze. Also, I’ve heard that ENTPs tend to think they are quite kinky and dominant based on their own subjective point of view. While the kinky part mind be true, an ENTP’s “dominance” is likely to pale in comparison to that of, say, an ENTJ or E8 ENFJ man. And from a typological point of view it makes sense. ENTPs are not particularly adept at Se, although they do have Te-id and the imaginative Ne thing going on (which I guess equates to kink).
Also, personally, I want real depth of emotion in the sex I receive. Unfortunately, it’s a little hard for me to imagine that an ENTP man would *convincingly* deliver this to me.
But yeah. How dare I make a judgment without trying this all out myself! Maybe I should just give it a go and get fucked by an ENTP. 😉
@Schlopadoo Yer I think you guys are generalising a little too much and trying to read too much into this to be honest lol In my experience of INFJs, they’ve never really been able to keep up with me at the beginning. I’ve always had to introduce more passionate and dominant sex to them over time. They’ve always had a “mind-body” disconnect which required some working on before they could truly just “let go”. Doesn’t sound like this applies to you though!
@Gervin
Actually, the “mind-body” disconnect does apply to me. Which is why I’ve been fantasising about being fucked by someone who will help me get out of my mind. Like an ENTJ or ENFJ beast. Didn’t think ENTPs would do it for me, but maybe I’m wrong. Yeah, OK. You convinced me. I’m going to go out and get fucked by an ENTP. Totally!
@Schlopadoo
Go for it, try it out with an ENTP! Here’s my prediction though. You’ll meet an ENTP, have an amazing and instant “connection”… Next you’ll start idealising him and all of the sudden you won’t want him to fuck your brains out… no no… he must “make love to you” and you will want to drown in love. Fucking your brains out will make you feel disrespected and whore-ish. Can’t be having that. Just wait 😉
He understands you so well schlops 😉
My observation has always been that ENTPs can’t meaningfully distinguish Ni from Fi. They’re great at moving goalposts though!
Hmm never noticed that with ENTPs I know. Moving the goalposts is usually more of an INFJ move. You know with the whole, we can literally justify and rationalise the shit out of anything so we can convince ourselves we’re still “perfect” and not have to look at our real selves and feel tremendous amounts of shame 😉
Deep
How dare you generalize so much schlops.
ENTPs are clearly sex Gods.
Now, now. We all know I am the sex gods. Yes, all of them.
“Now, now. We all know I am the sex gods. Yes, all of them”
Yeah. I know, Erika. So Y U NO COME BACK TO FORUM?! We need your sexy piece of ENFJ ass.
😀 Hilarious! My boyfriend is popping popcorn right now actually. Oh baby, it’s time. To watch. Some action. Sorry. *guilty*
I’m going to throw in some experience here. I dated an ENTP for almost 7 years. And here is what I learned.
ENTPs have a lot of mental energy…and sometime a lot of physical energy…and Te Id. That translates into energetic, competent, and sometimes dominant sex. But to let you know where the bar lies–it is nothing anywhere near what an ENFJ type 8 can accomplish. ENFJs type 8 are sex on a stick. They drip sex, they have women crawling after them begging for sex with them. My fiancee said each day he was single was like waking up being willy wonka in a chocolate factory wondering which flavor he would like to try–and he is not rich or young. A ENTP can’t achieve this level of sexuality because it requires mind fucking a woman–understanding what that individual needs to feel loved/sexual better than she does herself and giving her that experience. ENTPs simply don’t care enough about the emotional experience of individuals and can’t relate enough to it, to put that kind of energy into them. The best they can do is manipulate people which is a step down in terms of Fe complexity.
The ENTP would tell me that my desire to get married, be a family unit, have a deep grounded stable connection was an irrational problem I had. Because I was flourishing financially and career wise, developing intellectually, and reaching higher and higher levels of accomplishments in part due to my relationship with him, and since those were his metrics of success in life, my inability to find peace and happiness in them indicated an emotional dis-function on my part.
In general, I think the ENTP is the one who is the happiest and most satisfied in this type of relationship and ends up assuming the other partner is more satisfied than they are…but I also think that the INFJ/ENTP as well as the INTJ/ENTP relationship is incredibly healthy for growth in both types and I strongly support it as long as it doesn’t become dysfunctional.
@Self What you’ve described applies ONLY to your personal experiences and can not be generalised across the board. Sexuality and MBTI have literally nothing to do with one another.
ENFJs are total pussies compared to the majority of ENTPs. They’re actually incredibly soft for the most part and non-domineering at all. Even the type 8s. But maybe that is due to my subjective experience as I’m an ENTP type 8 and I’m definitely more dominant than an ENFJ type 8 would be.
ENTPs can achieve “that level of sexuality” as you call it. Personality type does not correlate to sexual prowess. My ex was an ENFJ type 8 and I admit the sex with her was great.. but it wasn’t because of her. It’s because I was able to open her up in ways she had never experienced before. She was open minded enough to go for it. Prior to me, sex for her was very vanilla. She actually thought she had an issue reaching orgasm. Turns out she didn’t after meeting me.
You’re completely wrong about the emotional aspect of ENTPs. If you struggled to emotionally connect with yours then it’s because you weren’t sincere enough in your relationship. ENTPs simply don’t emotionally connect with people they do not trust. But when they do, it is honest and sincere. This is unlike the ENFJ… if you can even work out what personality they are putting on for you that day lol… They are far more manipulative than the average ENTP.
What you don’t understand about ENTPs is that those of us who have matured understand where genuine happiness, emotional connection and depth comes from. It doesn’t come from forcing another to change. It comes through total acceptance of the other and allowing them to be free. That’s how healthy, deep, loving emotions grow between two people. None of this needy shit you guys keep describing whilst simultaneously trying to flower it all up.
No, ENTPs actually long for deep, genuine emotional connection. Anyone who claims otherwise doesn’t know any or understand the type. ENTPs are an intuitive feeler type regardless of the “T” in the name. Ditch the letters and pay attention to how the functions actually work.
It sounds like you guys are just taking some of Blake’s words too literally and not getting out there and discovering the world. Heck, I don’t even know if you’ve ever been in a relationship with an ENTP or ENFJ. You may not even be an INFJ. You guys do have crazy imaginations sometimes.
None of what you’ve described is at all accurate in reality I’m afraid. Simply looks as if you’ve been spending too much time online reading stereotypes and not getting out enough 🙂
@Self Ah I figured out where you got the ENFJ type 8 shit from. Blake literally wrote an article on it and you’ve simply ripped the description off from there.
To be honest, I have to respectfully disagree with that article as a general rule. Many of the examples listed are simply actors playing roles, some of them aren’t even ENFJs. Marlon Brando was an INFP and Elvis was an ESFP.
Sorry, ENFJs in reality are incredibly soft and “safe” individuals. The men especially. The women are crazy in bed, but only if approach them correctly. They’re open minded and flirtatious though, I’ll give them that. But crazy sex gods on a stick? Haha sorry no…
Hi carly, sorry to hear that I rattled you. I know how sensitive you INFJs can be. But let’s just make sure you and I are on the same page here and you know what you’re dealing with before you unleash your nature on me.
I’m an ENTP. Your words won’t hurt me so hurling insults in my direction is futile. Similarly, all it will take is a few carefully chosen words from me to cut you down and have you cowering back to your cave to lick your wounds for the next week. However, I’m not a mean spirited ENTP so I will spare you and your feelings. (though I’m sure I’ve already said enough in these last two short paragraphs to send you off into a rage again… *sigh*)
With regards to the negative aspects of female nature being largely ignored by society… well, sorry but this is true. I have carefully thought about it.
Next, there are no such thing as “soulmate” relationships or “soulmates” in general. This is simply childish and imaginative thinking. Mature INFJs who have done a lot of introspection and self-work would agree with me here.
The INFJ I am with is certainly not “settling”… you seem to be making a lot of irrational assumptions here. Just as others have correctly pointed out many times, INFJs on the whole tend to gravitate towards having covert narcissistic traits. My INFJ partner is a self-admitted covert narcissist. She simply CAN NOT have incredibly close, intimate relationships with anyone without hurting them. Every INFJ I have ever met has had this same problem. The reason I can is because I know how to navigate her nature without it being an issue. I understand her in a way nobody else ever has.
Furthermore, you clearly no nothing about ENTPs. There is absolutely nothing “shallow” about us whatsoever. I have a better understanding of INFJs than most INFJs do of themselves. Most are pleasantly surprised at how well I just “get” them. As the article correctly points out, ENTPs actually have the ability to make your Fi problems a total non-issue under the correct circumstances.
As for my remarks about INFJ-INFJ pairings. Sorry but if you understand the functions and how they relate to each other then you’d know that INFJ-INFJ pairings are the LEAST compatible of all combinations for INFJ (in theory). ENFPs are the most socially compatible type for INFJs (i.e. friendships) and ENTPs are the most romantically compatible type (i.e. sexual/love relationships). INFJs, on the other hand, have high comradery with each other but low compatibility. Comradery refers to “shoulder to shoulder” relationships with each other (which is why you see INFJs congregate together online to complain about their woes) and compatibility refers to “face to face” relationships (this is where INFJs struggle).
Now I’m open to hearing Blake’s astrological theory on this as I’m always keen to learn, but from a purely functional understanding, INFJs tend to do very poorly together. I have seen this time and time again.
@gervin
Carley is not an INFJ sun. She is an E3 ENFJ sun with an INFJ moon. So this is not an INFJ-INFJ sun pairing she is pining for.
I definitely agree with you about ENTPs understanding INFJs more than INFJs do themselves, although this isn’t always the case. It depends on the ENTP. Also, the ENTP and INFJ would have to become close enough to each other to allow this phenomenon to happen. I think ENTPs put to WORDS what an INFJ is or is experiencing from a comical scientist point of view. I love it. So you get love from me here. If you even care. Ha.
Can’t say I totally agree with ENTPs being the most romantically compatible type for INFJs. What’s your “n” number here, bro?
Actually, Blake has speculated that ENFP is the “perfect erotic” partner for the INFJ, while ESTP is the “perfect marriage” partner for INFJ. (Here, we are referring to sun types)
Can you give specific examples of INFJ-INFJ “fail-pairings”?
@schlopadoo
I’ll respond to this now. Let me just understand. What real-life experience are you judging your compatibilities on? How many ENTPs? ENFPs or ESTPs have you dated? Also what’s “n” number?
It seems to me that everyone here is making a lot of speculations about ENTPs without actually having any real world experience knowing ENTPs?
I really don’t understand the difference between sun and moon types so I’m just going to answer from my understanding of cognitive functions.
ENFPs are the most socially compatible type for INFJ (this pertains to friendships). I honestly can’t see much eroticism going on between ENFPs and INFJs. I think an ENTP-ENFP pair is more likely to be erotic.
The ESTP-INFJ pairing is usually pushed by socionics as a “duality” relationship. Personally I think this pairing is total garbage and socionics has it totally wrong. Switch “duality” with “dual” and you’ll be more correct. The INFJ-ESTP would never see eye to eye and be constantly fighting and “dualing”. Terrible marriage compatibility if you ask me. Well, if they even get close… the INFJ would just doorslam the ESTP in a matter of months in most cases.
With regards to INFJ-INFJ pairings. Let me throw it back onto you. Can you give me any examples of INFJs working out in a lifelong, monogamous marriages whilst living together? I can’t.
“Let me throw it back onto you”
Shocking.
What’s the matter? Having a hard time answering the question asked of you?
“What’s the matter? Having a hard time answering the question asked of you?”
Not at all. I have known of 3 INFJ-INFJ pairings in real-life and all of them ended disastrously. In two of the cases, the INFJ woman dumped the INFJ guy saying she wasn’t sexually attracted to him at all and came and fucked me instead. Is that a large enough sample size for you? Probably not. Hence why I asked if you knew of any that actually worked. I don’t.
“and came and fucked me instead.”
Ha.
There’s that sex God again.
Nah man. That’s plenty big enough of a sample size. I probably don’t know any INFJ-INFJ sun pairings personally. Or moon-moons. Or sun-moon pairings.
I’m pretty shit at the whole typing of people still. I think it’s pretty complex. And easy to get wrong. I tend to figure a shit ton out about people before I come close to typing them.
But you didn’t ask me anyways… you asked schlops… who is really fucking good at typing, if you were wondering.
“Is that a large enough sample size for you?”
Not sure, but you clearly had a big enough dick size. 😉
“Not sure, but you clearly had a big enough dick size.”
Goddamnit schlops. I nearly spit my drink across the room. Fucking ha.
Yeah. Theory. I like theory too. Like schlops. That’s why I’m interested.
I also tend to have a strong fucking reaction to bullshit.
Sometimes.
But it’s probably just the theory that’s kept me interested and wanting to play today. 😁
“Not sure, but you clearly had a big enough dick size. 😉”
You could be on to something here. One of those INFJs literally told me “I literally hate everything about you… The only reason I spend time with you is because of your dick”
I took it as the biggest compliment of my life 😉
Schlops is on to everything. I have much to learn.
“I took it as the biggest compliment of my life”
Wow. I’m impressed. I believe you. Genuinely.
And this is all I need to know.
I really think I can leave this thread with peace in my heart now.
Congratulations on your big dick.
@gervin
“n” number meaning your sample size.
I do have real world experience with ENTPs, but I’ve never been in a romantic relationship with any of them. I have one very close ENTP friend who I absolutely adore and practically co-habitate with, meaning that we work next to each other most hours of the week. But that’s just one ENTP. Having said that, I think there are plenty of anecdotes here on the Maze describing different people’s relationships with ENTPs. I go by these anecdotes and Blake’s theories (not that it’s dogma or anything). The inability of ENTPs to meet INFJs at the Fi id is probably the #1 reason why INFJs might not find ENTPs truly satisfying at the end. I think we can both agree on this. Many people have experienced this, and from a theoretical point of view, it just makes sense. Having said that, subtypes might change the game here. Also depends on the arrangement of the relationship. And which goals and values either partner prioritises.
And I was not claiming ENFPs are the perfect erotic partner for INFJs based on my own judgment. That was Blake’s. If you wanna argue with him, I think you should poke him. 😉 Same with the ESTP being the perfect marriage partner. I believe Blake said ENTP is the “perfect partner.” ENTP is neither the most ideal erotic partner nor the ideal marriage partner for the INFJ. It is somewhere midway, and is not likely to be ideal in every aspect of a long-term, romantic/sexual relationship. Again, this is not my idea. That is his. However, his ideas make sense to me, based on my real-life encounters with ENFPs, ENTPs, and ESTPs. No, I did not have long-term romantic relationships with any of them, but I am an Ni dominant after all. I predict and see shit in my own little ivory tower, and the few encounters/friendships/non-romantic relationships I’ve had can give me all that I need to get a sense of their soul and “extrapolate” from there. But Ni can be wrong sometimes, I know. That’s why I don’t put so much attachment on any of my predictions. That’s all what they are. Predictions that should be tested and adjusted or refuted accordingly.
But same goes for your conclusions about ENTP-X coupling based on your personal experiences. We can never be truly sure you’re an ENTP anyways, by the end of the day. Or whether your assessment of anybody’s MBTI type is right. Or whether your experiences are truly representative of the thousands of other ENTP-X couplings that have existed on this motherfucking planet. However, you do seem to know what the fuck you’re talking about, so I do appreciate and value the shit you’re writing here. 🙂
You are probably right about the duelling relationship between ESTP and INFJ, due to the exact oppositions between the Dominant-Inferior and Auxiliary-Tertiary functions. Blake has even claimed that this is likely to happen between exact opposite types. And it makes sense theoretically (b/c of the nature of oppositions). However, the theory is that if the marriage partners truly stick to the commitment for years, the marriage can work with enough dynamism and complementarity between the opposing functions to make it last. Still, it takes practice, lots of practice. It’s a “balancing” act. So unless you have kids to force yourself to make this balancing act work, then forget it. Because the initial feelings of hatred will overpower the desire to make an effort. Again, that’s his theory, again. Not mine. However, it makes sense to me intuitively.
And Gervin, I will admit that I am much younger than you and starved of real life experience. I only had (and am currently in) one relationship in my entire life. 😉 I would love to bang an ENTP some day in my life, though. LOL.
Anyways, I may know of one INFJ-INFJ sun coupling in my life, but know hardly enough about them to get the full details. They are rather secretive about what their love life is really like. In terms of well-known couplings, possibly Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone Beauvoir? I don’t know enough about their relationship besides the fact that they were practically “soulmate” pairs who made their relationship work via distance and polyamory. The reason I asked you for examples was because I was genuinely curious about which specific examples you had in mind for all these INFJ-INFJ sun fail couplings you’ve mentioned. Honestly!
Just know that I have no real attachment to any of the shit that’s going on in this thread, if that’s the feeling you’re getting from me. I have no real agenda. I don’t take MBTI theory personally, because I am genuinely detached to all this shit due to my NT moon. I don’t care at a personal level whether ENTP-INFJ pairing is the perfect romantic/sexual coupling. But it’s fun and interesting for me to learn and discuss this shit at an intellectual level. In fact, all this MBTI stuff could be monkey bullshit at the end of the day. Like, Blake might be majorly tripping on shit, and I still wouldn’t give a flying fuck. I’m just playing with theory here. 😀
@schlopadoo I’ve had dozens of real-life dealings with INFJs over the past 15 years and my experience goes hand in hand with the descriptions in this article perfectly.
My position isn’t a persecution of INFJs per se. If we are all being honest, everybody struggles in long term relationships nowadays. Hell, most people end up divorced or stuck in loveless marriages regardless of type. I just think INFJs are especially susceptible to this given their nature. Regardless of who they are with an INFJ will always be somewhat dissatisfied with their partner. I just think it is better for an INFJ to pair with someone who attracts them, keeps them excited yet to a degree frustrates them rather than them be in a loveless, sexless marriage for 40 years. You are free to disagree.
With regards to “ideal” partners for INFJ. Honestly, I don’t think there is one. I also don’t think INFJs are in any position to expect perfection either. Whoever an INFJ dates will have to “tolerate” the negative aspects of an INFJ, most types can’t handle this.
I mean do you think INFJ is “ideal” for an ENTP? Hell no! (I don’t think INFJs are “ideal” for anyone… in the traditional sense of compatibility anyway.) ENTPs require a level of sincerity and honesty that INFJs simply can not give. An INFJ won’t see it this way of course. An INFJ will always trust their intuition as “truth” over truth itself. We’ve seen some of the conclusions you’ve made based on your Ni during our exchange. Is this truth? Nope, but you see it as truth because you “feel” it’s true not because it’s objectively true like the way an ENTP would see things. However, the INFJ-ENTP connection is an interesting one. Anybody who has experienced it will not deny the deep, magnetic attraction and pull. Under the right circumstances, it can just work. But, only if the INFJ is willing to transcend and think in different terms. Most can not, which is why the majority remain single most of their lives.
Going back to the whole “soul connection” concept. My take on it is that soul connections are transcendent, ethereal almost. A connection that is operating at a higher level of conciousness and out of this world. The Fi ID is the complete opposite to this. It is primitive, animalistic and an undermining lesser function in INFJs. Nothing to do with actual “soul bonds”. It operates covertly and beneath the normal human experience. This is why I think INFJs should grow and move past it. Achieve “enlightenment” almost.
Interesting you mention Jean Paul Satre (who I think is INTJ?) and Simone Beauvoir (INFJ). Yes, this type of arrangement can and does work for INFJs. But it requires “transcendence” as I spoke of above and a true acceptance of one’s self rather than what one wishes they were. Their relationship actually fits in nicely with the conclusion of this article and resembles the type of relationship I have with my INFJ partner. INFJs can not and should not be confined to traditional relationship models, though they will need to fight their nature here. In this instance, ENTP is actually ideal for INFJ because of the dynamics and make up of both types as I described in my original comment. It simply works and it’s ridiculously easy. Can and will most INFJs achieve this this? I doubt it, it takes a lot of honest self-reflection and work before INFJs can reach that level of contentment. The majority of INFJs simply will not do this. Some can, and the minority of INFJs that do will be far happier and fulfilled than the majority of their counterparts.
I like you and I think we’d get along great.
“Nope, but you see it as truth because you “feel” it’s true not because it’s objectively true like the way an ENTP would see things.” That’s what I was talking about before– this sentiment is a cliche frustration ENTPs have with INFJs, and it comes from your lack of reality testing in the world of subjective truth. You can’t imagine Ni that is in the Fi/Fe context but independent from it, and you don’t (can’t, I think) gather the data that would correct your shallow view of it, partly because your ninja superpower to calibrate immediate reality means you never have to.
Blake’s pithy insight about subjective and objective goes both ways.
Speaking of famous couples, Ted Hughes was an ENTP wasn’t he?
“You can’t imagine Ni that is in the Fi/Fe context but independent from it, and you don’t (can’t, I think) gather the data that would correct your shallow view of it, partly because your ninja superpower to calibrate immediate reality means you never have to.”
Hmm not sure if I follow you here so I may need some more clarity. Let me give you an example, albeit a pretty extreme one. I once knew an INFJ female who described a relationship she once had with a famous celebrity. She recalled memories of her times with him in extreme detail and clarity over a 3 year period. She even described in detail the extreme pain she felt when their relationship finally came to an end. It turned out that this entire relationship was completely made up by her. It simply never happened yet in her mind it did. When confronted with this revelation, she refused to accept reality. To “her” it happened because in her mind it was real. She “felt” it was real. Nothing could convince her otherwise.
Now, I know this example is an extreme one, but I see INFJs do this type of thing all the time. Something is either true or it isn’t. It is either right or it’s wrong. The only exception to this is if there are multiple rights and wrongs in a given situation. However, for the most part, 1+1 will never equal to 3… It will always equal 2.
Not sure about Ted Hughes. What’s the relevance?
“I see INFJs do this type of thing all the time.”
I’m not sure that’s true.
@gervin
Last fucking post.
“Not sure about Ted Hughes. What’s the relevance?”
I think Sparrow suggested Ted Hughes because his partner, Sylvia Plath was an INFJ. I don’t know if Ted Hughes is ENTP as I don’t know much about him or read any of his stuff. But their relationship was disastrous, with Sylvia Plath killing herself in the end.
“Now, I know this example is an extreme one, but I see INFJs do this type of thing all the time. Something is either true or it isn’t. It is either right or it’s wrong.”
For the most part, and you excluded INTJs in the picture too. The Ni function just operates like that. I understand your perspective, because I am even skeptical of my own Ni function due to my scientific background. However, both INFJs and INTJs have the option of testing whether their Ni conclusions are indeed correct, by backing up shit with external data and adjusting the framework accordingly. I don’t find this approach terribly offensive. It would be much more wrong to preach and believe in one’s Ni conclusions as if they were gospel, with no attempts to change one’s mind given sufficient evidence.
Also, I think I made it clear that some of the generalisations seen out here come from speculations based on a reference theoretical framework (Blake’s type theory, mostly). I don’t find that terribly too wrong either. After all, even Ne users do the same thing. Any academic field would have people making speculations from established theories all the fucking time!
So, I don’t think everybody’s speculations here just come randomly out of the blue, just because they “felt” that way. I think that comes from your own bias here. Your perspective is a bit skewed here. They come from references from other people’s anecdotes here, application/extrapolation of Blake’s theory, and/or personal experiences. And if the real source was indeed just Ni, at least most people attempt to back it up by referencing at least one of those three sources I’ve listed, although this has its own shortcomings (cherrypicking shit to validate one’s own theories, whether intentional or not – but after all, it is possible that you are doing the same thing, too, even as an ENTP, as this shit is unavoidable for subjective matters). The most ideal thing is to find a way to objectively test these predictions – it would be awesome if this could indeed be achieved. However, it would be difficult to do this properly for innately subjective matters. Much easier for shit like hard sciences, which is what INTJs do: randomly come up with really opinionated Ni ideas of how natural phenomena work, to the bafflement and anger of xNTPs, but then testing that shit in the end with really good experiments via Te auxiliary. I see it all the time, as a scientist myself.
So what I’m saying is, yeah. You have described the Ni function, possibly Ni/Ti or Ni/Fi, too. However, that doesn’t mean an INxJ will just stop at their Ni conclusions there, although some of them do. They always have the option to do a reality check and adjust accordingly – and I think many of them indeed do this. Otherwise, most of them would be bona fide lunatics, like that INFJ female you talked about. I also think that minimal Se grounding (awareness and gathering of concrete, external data) is partly what helps INxJs ground in reality despite the bat-shit nature of Ni.
And sometimes, Ni can end up being dead accurate! Like this fucking article you kept saying seemed to ring so true based on your own personal experiences with INFJ women. 😉
@gervin
Have to say, I want to get on with things, so unfortunately I wouldn’t be able to give as good a response as I’d like to.
Basically, I am in agreement with you with regards to many of your insights, and maybe from my posts, my stance has not been made clear enough. So to be clear: I personally DO NOT care if my Fi id is met. I personally DO NOT care about the “ideal” relationship (in the absolutely perfect sense) . I also think I will have no problems being in a relationship with an ENTP, because I am much colder in nature than the average INFJ (I’m an INTJ moon). Having said that, I do not think most INFJs will find *100%*satisfaction (this is what I really meant) from relating with an ENTP due to the latter’s inability to meet the Fi id. And unfortunately, the Fi id is just a highly felt position in nature, so it may be more difficult to ignore than having another function in the id position. However, yes, I do think ENTPs are probably one of the best, if not “the best” (depending on what kind of romantic/sexual relationship we’re aiming for), matches out there for INFJ. Not an “absolutely perfect” match, but one of the best matches from all the other MBTI types out there. I think some INFJs will have a harder time dealing with ENTPs depending on how susceptible they are to their Fi id impulses. That is my guess. I’m sorry if I did not make this clear enough for you.
(BTW, if I didn’t write “sun” or “moon” after an MBTI type, just take it as the implicit “sun” AKA the “main” type)
I’m just going to clarify a few things here. Don’t take this as me refuting against the MAIN point of what you were trying to convey, because I am pretty much in agreement with you here:
I think you misunderstood what I’ve meant by “soul connection.” Again, Ni-terminology is always susceptible to subjective interpretations and inconsistent usage. Basically, I agree with you on the primitive nature of the Fi id. I think when I used the word “soul,” I meant “emotional.” I don’t think “soul” is exactly equivalent to the “emotional,” but I would guess that they are related. Also, I distinguish between the term “spiritual” from “soul.” I wouldn’t consider Fi id to be connected to the spiritual. Rather, Ni is spiritual. However, “spiritual” and “soul” are often used interchangeably by others. So it gets confusing. I think how you interpreted “soul connection” here was something I’d consider “spiritual.”
Also, when I use the terms “ideal erotic partner” or “ideal marriage partner”…I mean the “best possible erotic/marriage match” in THEORY, based on the dynamics between cognitive functions. i.e. The ideal erotic relationship would entail two types whose functions at each position are the same in element but opposite in attitude, while the ideal marriage relationship would be the socionics duality pair. I do not mean ideal in the sense that the actual relationship itself will be “absolutely perfect” or that the theoretical “ideal erotic/marriage partner” is going to translate to one’s actual ideal erotic/marriage partner. And I agree with you here. Of course there is no such thing as an “absolutely perfect relationship” on this planet Earth. That would be preposterous.
And yes, Blake thinks JP Sartre is INFJ with very high Ti-leanings. I think you should stick around to learn more about the subtyping shit, as that stuff would explain the slight mismatches between one’s “true” type (the sun type) and which types one may appear to be at any given time. Lots of people are being mistyped (with regards to the main sun type) because of confusing shit stemming from the moon and rising subtypes. And anyways, many of the things you were telling to Carley didn’t mean anything at all, because she is not an INFJ sun. 😉 She is an INFJ moon. So I found the row between you two fucking hilarious, sorry.
Anyways. The whole point is, we are in much more agreement that we think. I think you didn’t fully understand my stances, partly because I have not explained myself properly and partly because of all this confusing Ni terminology that is subjectively interpreted and inconsistently used between one another. Again, I have no personal attachment to any of this MBTI shit. I am not offended by Blake’s article or any of your insights into the not-so-nice nature of INFJs. Let me make that clear. Maybe you’ve confused me with other people in this thread. My whole talk about my INTJ moon interfering with some of the Fi id expression probably confused you too, as that stuff was not to discount the general truths of this article that would apply to the INFJ archetype (or the average INFJ), but rather me just playing around with how the Sun type’s id and moon subtype might interact.
I could get into the whole subjective vs. objective approach, but this shit is so fucking futile with MBTI, which is a “science” that is soft as hell. No one will ever be truly objective, not even an ENTP, due to the nature of the subject matter at hand. The better question is whether any of the insights we choose to take will be useful in our personal lives. So we will gloss over that. I do know where you are coming from, though. After all…you are talking to an INTJ moon. Meaning I am actually GENUINELY detached from this shit and more objective in outlook than the average INFJ. Having said that, I will take an Ni approach to things, so you definitely won’t resonate. I can’t blame you. I am a natural scientist by occupation, so I cringe at my own Ni. However, I permit myself to flaunt it when it comes to things like typology and the nature of human beings. 😉
Thanks for your insights and spending the time to write a really nice response! I do appreciate it, really.
@gervin
I read your post one more time.
“However, the INFJ-ENTP connection is an interesting one. Anybody who has experienced it will not deny the deep, magnetic attraction and pull. Under the right circumstances, it can just work. But, only if the INFJ is willing to transcend and think in different terms.”
So to be clear on my views: If an INFJ is willing to let go of wanting the deep itch of Fi id “scratched” solely via partnership with an ENTP, then I would agree with you here. However, I think we can both agree with the fact that ignoring (meaning, not fulfilling) strong Fi id impulses can be particularly challenging. Personally speaking, I am not one of those Fi id-like types. I find myself quite aspirational with constructive goals and even feel…guilty to think of letting myself decay. Having said that, the id represents NEEDS. Like a child’s need for nurturing or a human being’s need for food and water. These basic needs must be met before the individual moves on towards achieving higher goals. So the question is: Can an INFJ truly let go of having their Fi id needs met via intimate relationships? Is bloodletting via Fe artistic expression truly enough?
I actually do not have an answer to these questions. I remain neutral until I’m fed more information via personal experience and other people’s insights. My speculation is that it depends on the INFJ, the moon subtype, and where the INFJ is in his/her life. Personally speaking, I’d like to and am actually inclined to believe you – that one can truly transcend these primal desires and “think in different terms” especially when getting involved with an ENTP… But you never know, as needs are needs at the end of the day. It could be naive to believe that such transcendence can truly be achieved and sustained for a very long period of time. I won’t make a definite judgment for now.
Your positive experience with ENTP-INFJ relationships is very encouraging, though.
Now if we’re talking INFJ *moon* here, though, I’d say…forget it. Primal to the primal. These are screaming baby needs that must be met in one way or another. I think the concept of “transcendence” simply does not apply to the INFJ lunar type. That is my guess.
@schlopadoo
I disagree with the Fi urge being a “need”. So let me put forward a challenge to you to try and reframe your thinking. If it really were a “need” then why have the majority of you not dropped down dead yet or topped yourselves? Serious question.
I don’t believe it’s a need at all. It’s simply a “desire” and a dark, insidious one at that. We can all overcome and move past our desires. Furthermore, we need to move away from cognitive functions and back to intersexual dynamics to understand why trying to have this urge met is actually counterproductive. The article is actually correct. Even if, theoretically, one man can scratch this itch, your very nature as a female INFJ will tell you to reject this man. You will simply lose respect and attraction for him. There is no way round this. This man (INFJ or not) will simply become the care-giver you never had and you will suck the very life force out of him until there is nothing left of him but an empty shell.
Furthermore, let me say this to you. Why do you want to give so much of your own personal power away like this? You really want to spend your life hoping that one day someone will come along and fix all your problems? Ok, let’s imagine for one second you did meet someone like this and all of your dreams came true. What happens if he gets hit by a bus and killed a week later? Oh dear, you know longer have any reason to live do you? May as well throw yourself in front of the next bus. What I’m saying is, thinking in this way is coming from a position of weakness. Satisfaction and contentment comes from within.
All you need to do is look as some of history’s greatest INFJs and how they chose to live their lives. One of my personal favourites is the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius. He was considered the last of the “Five Good Emperors” and the people of the empire loved him. As an INFJ, he had many personal struggles in life that he needed to overcome as well as being the most powerful man in the world who had to lead with integrity. He is probably the most famous of the great stoic philosophers and wrote a collection of works known as “Meditations”. I encourage every INFJ to read his works and insights into dealing with the human condition and transcending it. Marcus Aurelius is the epitome of what an INFJ can accomplish and achieve in life. Why should any of you settle for anything less?
Goddamn you understand this all so well.
My mind is exploding right now.
You know, I’ll bet you’re a great listener. Like you must really hear people. Not just INFJs. My guess is that you understand all people really fucking well. Do people tell you that as much as they tell you how big your dick is?
Blake should just let you take over.
Hey @gervin, I think my dick might actually be bigger than yours. Most people just don’t inspire me so strongly to expose it as you do.
@gervin
I think you will have to debate with Blake about whether an id represents an MBTI type’s needs. As far as I know, the id is akin to the astrological moon…which represents psychological needs and desires.
And I don’t think not having the id’s needs met would guarantee suicide, lmao. However, I would guess that a few people in this world just might have killed themselves due to that very reason, yes. Most other people would probably feel uncomfortable or quite unhappy. Some would resort to repression as a defence mechanism, but this could potentially backfire in the long run.
I think you are misinterpreting most of my comments. I think I made my personal stance clear. I don’t give a fuck about having my Fi id urges met via relationship with another human being. I think I said that multiple times. However, I try not to use my own personal experience as a source to make general conclusions about any type or type dynamics. I always try to combine other people’s experience as well as my understanding of Blake’s type theories. So my “neutral” or “not so sure” stance does not come from me, personally. I thought I made that clear.
Also, if you have read any of my comments in this thread, I stated that I am a person driven by a soul project or a soul mission, but not a soulmate. So yes, I think I know what you are trying to get at. However, I don’t completely buy your insistence that all INFJs should try to move away from his/her dark desires and “transcend” themselves, as if this is something that can truly be done with ease over a long period of time. And to be clear again, it doesn’t mean I disagree with you. What I mean is that I’m not sure. I’m neutral. I need more information, meaning LOTS of examples with proof that these people were not suffering or closet hedonists/fuck-ups behind the mask of achieving Apollonian perfection. And once again, this stance has nothing to do with me. It’s about the general INFJ population.
I don’t know whether Marcus Aurelius is INFJ, so unfortunately, I can’t really make a comment on your example here.
Now as for whether we should all “overcome and move past our desires”…I really sympathise with your stance, as this is the personal approach I take in my own life. However, I am beginning to become less and less sure that this tactic is actually sustainable or healthy in the long run. It seems too moralistic and very Christian in a sense, with little grounding in what’s truly realistic. I think it’s one of those things where one will have to find a unique solution to satisfy their id impulses without giving into the nastiest desires that could cause significant harm to oneself and others. To completely move past ALL desires would be a recipe for disaster. I think one should quickly get the id’s basic needs met or at least somewhat satisfied and then quickly move on. This sounds healthiest to me. Each person will have to find a creative solution to achieve this without getting fucked, and it’ll likely take many tries.
Anyways, I think I will stop from here onwards, because I’ve made my stance clear multiple times – that I remain neutral until I get more information, but that personally, I don’t give a rat’s ass about soulmate shit. Your anecdotes are encouraging, but I am not convinced yet, simply because I need more examples with honest details, and preferably from INFJs themselves.
Also, while Blake would probably still agree with most of the shit he wrote about INFJ women in this article, I think he wrote recently that at the end of the day, the INFJ’s Fi id needs/urges must be met at some way or another. The ENTP is not enough in the long run, at least for long-term, monogamous relationships. The INFJ will need someone to meet them at their id at some point in his/her life. So if you disagree with this premise, I suggest you argue with him. He would probably provide a much better answer.
@schlopadoo
I can’t picture nfs getting their needs met in life. I dont know why I feel that’s part of being NF. Key to NF is longing for what can’t be. Idealistic
@lunar
“Key to NF is longing for what can’t be. Idealistic”
This is also the BEAUTY of NFs. It is not rational, but it is beautiful.
“I can’t picture nfs getting their needs met in life”
I think it depends on what we mean by “needs.” There are the id’s “needs” and then the “needs” you are describing. Going by your definition…no, the “ideal” cannot be something truly attained in the material world. But NFs “need” to *pursue* and *dream* about the ideal – and those needs *can* be met.
yes true. i’m not necessarily talking about id although the id kind of leads to despair. too many factors.
Yeah, it’s pretty tricky. We can’t ignore it but we can’t let it eat us alive either. I dunno. I could be also talking rubbish, that’s very well possible! 😉 I hope Blake talks more about this in the future.
where the hell is Blake. although really respect.
I’m sorry you responded to me because I’m at the point where I’m fried. This stuff isn’t really within my bandwidth. I had to look at the minutes to find your reply. The amount of replies in this thread is amazing. I actually am completely amazed by the mental energy you guys have. It’s really cool.
“I think it depends on what we mean by “needs.” There are the id’s “needs” and then the “needs” you are describing. Going by your definition…no, the “ideal” cannot be something truly attained in the material world. But NFs “need” to *pursue* and *dream* about the ideal – and those needs *can* be met.”
Again, prove empirically that these “needs” (which as I’ve already proven are not needs but desires) can be met? What evidence do you have to make this claim?
@schlopadoo
Also just to quickly answer your point about “emotional connections”.
I don’t believe you can or truly should attempt to emotionally connect with anybody at the Fi level. Introjection and genuine emotional connection in my opinion are mutually exclusive. You can not connect whilst “devouring” so to speak. No, emotional connection for INFJs take place at the Fe level, not Fi. Problem is, most INFJs try and bypass Fe and refuse to genuinely connect here. INFJs think the lack of connection is because of the other person, in most cases it isn’t. It is actually the INFJ that is the issue, attempting to choose Fi over Fe when relating with their love interest. Fe is the solution as always. You will find easy connections with other Fe users e.g. other INFJs and ENTPS etc. Fe is the magic bullet that propels INFJs to greatness. By engaging with others using Fe, you will simultaneously start to relieve your Fi urges too. It’s a win-win.
INFJs and ENTPs CAN and DO find deep, meaningful emotional connections when they both engage each other with Fe.
@gervin
Possibly the last comment I will make in this thread. Yes, Fe is incredibly healing, and all INFJs should engage more of their Fe.
The first thought I had in mind is what do we mean by “emotional connection”? Because again it could mean different things. The way you described it sounds like making efforts to gain mutual rapport between one another, and thus forming deep, personal attachments to one another. However, I suppose I meant connection between two people’s “emotional natures” or “souls,” AKA the ids, which is a different thing. I would fathom that this sort of connection would lead to an “understanding” of the sort Carley was referring to earlier, the kind in which one does not need to make much effort to just “know” who the other person is inside beyond the mental level…and automatically resonating with it, too.
Just to be clear, I’m just clarifying on nitpicky shit. I get your overall message, trust me. 😉
“INFJs and ENTPs CAN and DO find deep, meaningful emotional connections when they both engage each other with Fe.”
I think it’s possible, but I’m not sure if it’s simply via Fe. It sounds a bit simplistic, but that’s besides the point. I don’t doubt that it’s possible, so don’t get me wrong on that. But if we purely look at type theory, that “soul connection” I mentioned won’t be achieved between INFJs and ENTPs, theoretically – now whether that would be the actual case, I dunno. After all, if this deep, emotional connection you refer to is enough, then woohoo! Again, your success in your relationship with an INFJ is quite encouraging to us, so thanks for sharing.
@schlopadoo Fe is exactly what emotional connection is. Fi has nothing to do with emotional connection but deep, personal emotions. You are simply re-defining terms I have already explained to you.
The ID has nothing whatsoever to do with “souls” or “soul connections” as I have already pointed out multiple times. It is essentially a pathological function in INFJs. A primitive one, that is most often damaged through childhood trauma. You can not connect with somebody at the ID level because there is simply nothing to connect to. There is no “understanding” there as I’ve already explained. There is nothing to understand.
“But if we purely look at type theory, that “soul connection” I mentioned won’t be achieved between INFJs and ENTPs, theoretically – now whether that would be the actual case, I dunno. ”
Total nonsense. This shows me you have very little understanding of how the functions actually work. Look, I don’t want to sound mean or that I’m persecuting INFJs in any way but the overwhelming majority of you really fucking struggle in interpersonal relationships. And I’m going to be clear. It has NOTHING to do with the other person. Theorising and re-defining “soul connections” in whatever subjective BS way you want to do it is not going to help you. Many of you struggle to even leave the house, or hold down a job, or last in a relationship longer than just a few months without emotionally abusing your partner etc.
Look at yourselves and fix the issues you need to fix. No partner (regardless of type) can and will help you here. The Fi ID aspect in this regard is actually the least of your worries. You need to get past your perfectionist and idealistic tendencies first. The painting of people either as “all black” or “all white”… The constant push-pull dynamics, the fear of vulnerability etc. These things will fuck up any “soulmate” relationship before it even gets going. Oh, and the article also points out the “love triangles” thing… Fuck, you guys do that all the fucking time… Seriously, you guys shoot yourselves in the foot before you even get started! And you’re here theorising all this shit? Honestly, learn to crawl before you try and run a fucking marathon lol…
@gervin
I was predominantly talking to you with the intention of discussing general type dynamics rather than getting lectured about something I don’t need to hear. Because as I said, I don’t give a rat’s ass about soulmate shit.
You are clever at crafting your rhetoric so that you sound like you know what you are talking about and that what you say IS the truth. That is the great irony in your posts: you claim that ENTPs are superior to INFJs in seeing and respecting objective truth, yet you make a lot of remarks that it IS this or it’s ALWAYS like that with little nuance or consideration of other possibilities…especially the possibility to be, *gasp* wrong! Also, I can’t tell whether you have decided to misunderstand my intent to be clear on definitions of terms on purpose? I find it really weird that you interpreted my intent as a way to rationalize my subjective viewpoint, as if I was trying to claim your definition is wrong while mine is right. That wasn’t the intent at all. It was to be clear on both of our meanings, neither having to be wrong nor right. It was simply a way to check we are on the same page and have a productive, balanced discussion, because we could have been talking about entirely different shit.
At this point, I can’t tell whether you are a troll. But your personal bias has clearly clouded your ability to interpret my posts correctly. And after trying not to make a judgment throughout the entire discussion, you have finally swayed me into agreeing with Carley’s initial perceptions. Your posts smack of superiority. They sound clever, but upon further reading reveals an inability to properly address people’s points and respond accordingly. They lack Ti rigour and objectivity. You twist shit and intentionally/unintentionally misinterpret things to repeat your personal views again and again and again as if they were Gospel. And to say shit like this:
“And you’re here theorising all this shit? Honestly, learn to crawl before you try and run a fucking marathon lol…”
Well. I don’t what to say to that. 🙄 I expected to be dressed down a little more cleverly.
At this point, I even doubt whether you are truly ENTP. According to Blake, ENTPs are humble before all the possibilities of the universe. That’s why they are so great at seeing the objective truth, especially because they having something else…PERSONAL DETACHMENT and LEVITY. Neither of which you have demonstrated, especially in the last post of yours.
I will officially stop from here. You will not get a single reply from me at this point onwards. Others are welcome to join in, but I’d advise them not to, because again….I can’t tell whether you are just a troll at this point. ENTPs would definitely be more clever and funny about the trolling though. Meanwhile, you just reek of insecurity. So I guess you’re not trolling. 🤷♀️
I’m out, bitches! I don’t care what will be written to me afterwards.
Teehee! Teehee!
@Schlopadoo And now you are having to resort to ad hominem attacks because you can’t refute anything I’m saying. Not that I’m even looking for a refutation, rather just logical consistency and an ability to self-reflect and view things in different terms.
I’m not clever at crafting anything. In fact, everything I have said runs parallel and perfectly with the observations made on this blog which you subscribe to! With regards to your remark about “objectivity” even you have conceded that you are not as objective as you would like to be. The consideration of “possibilities” is exactly what an ENTP is, you know being an Ne dom and all. I have already taken considerable time to listen to your viewpoint and I’ve given mine. When you deal with an ENTP you must be logically consistent and hold off on subjectively redefining terms which is what you keep doing.
If you can actually point to a singular moment where I have not properly “addressed people’s points and responded accordingly” I would like to hear it. I have listened to everything you have said and responded. I know exactly what your position is, taken it in, disagreed with you respectfully and provided a thorough explanation for why I disagree. It is you who has not responded to my points and used circular reasoning to dance around the topic at hand.
“At this point, I even doubt whether you are truly ENTP. According to Blake, ENTPs are humble before all the possibilities of the universe. That’s why they are so great at seeing the objective truth, especially because they having something else…PERSONAL DETACHMENT and LEVITY. Neither of which you have demonstrated, especially in the last post of yours.”
Ad hominem attack and an attempt at gaslighting. Something many INFJs are very good at. I have demonstrated all the qualities you claim I don’t have. If I didn’t I wouldn’t even be here speaking to you. I was here simply to stimulate myself mentally and try and learn something new. What you don’t realise is how narcissistic you come across. Preaching as if it is only INFJs who have ” deep souls” and nobody else can experience this. Do you not see how ridiculous and arrogant you sound? Your perception of reality is totally insane. Something you SERIOUSLY need to work on if you want to have relationships with people in REAL LIFE.
@gervin
Though it was not addressed to me, the vast majority of this last post of yours was a fuckton more sensible to me. I genuinely want to understand your previous comments better. And so, I’m going to ask for some clarifications. You obviously don’t have to answer if you’re not interested.
I have been an antagonistic prick towards you for the most part. I’m not pretending otherwise. But these questions are completely sincere, I swear.
You say “INFJs will always struggle in deep, intimate one to one relationships”
You also say of your own relationship with your INFJ: “It simply works and it’s ridiculously easy”.
1. Do you think the relationship is “ridiculously easy” and “simply works” for her too? If so, is it not a deep, intimate one to one relationship?
Of course, you explain that it is not conventional… but that does not necessitate that it is also not deep and intimate, no?
You say “A true connection is of equal giving. Something an INFJ simply can not do due to her nature”.
2. So does your INFJ not have a “true connection” with you? Because you refer to your relationship with her as the “perfect” relationship…
“It truly is the “perfect” relationship.”
You say, “there are no such thing as “soulmate” relationships or “soulmates” in general.”
But you do believe in something you call a “soul connection”? Is that right?
“soul connections are transcendent, ethereal almost. A connection that is operating at a higher level of conciousness and out of this world”
3. Are “soul connections” something you truly believe possible, or are they also a product of “childish and imaginative thinking”?
So here’s the thing. I get that INFJs got some cards stacked against them and a lot of negative shit to overcome, (unlike many superficial descriptions of them portray). I get that. I agree with that. I think most people who like this site are utterly refreshed by Blakes ability to cut through the shit and not sugar coat things about INFJs or any other type, for that matter. But you use a lot of “always” and “nevers” in your descriptions of INFJs. And (granted, when antagonized) you paint a picture of no hope or chance for progress or growth. That is the main issue I’ve taken with your comments. Yes, you have taken a few steps back here lately and mentioned the possibility of INFJs growing, transcending and becoming “enlightened”. And I get being emphatic about it. I am probably the most guilty of that of anyone here. But you paint things as either the worst (everything INFJ) or the best (your relationship, your dick, your objectivity). Perhaps there’s some polarized thinking, maybe. I don’t know. Like schlops said, I am not an INFJ sun. Fuck, I may not be an INFJ moon. So I really should not have fucked with you so much.
Heh heh.
Oh look. I’m here. And not off in a corner crying and licking my wounds. Since you know INFJs so well I must not be one. 😁
You shouldn’t apologize for “rattling” me. Being stirred and getting some rage out is kinda a good thing for INFJs. Or are you not as familiar with our poison as you think you are. 😉
And if you really want to be on the same page you should know the intention of my words was not to hurt you. I was definitely a bit of an asshole and I’m sorry for that. But through that rage, my intention was to shed some light.
It does not surprise me that you don’t believe a connection can exist between two people that is such, that people refer to it as “soulmates”. And I don’t care what the fuck you call it. But it sure as shit exists. I just don’t have any interest in attempting to convince you, if I’m being honest. Now that would clearly be futile. You being an ENTP and all. And the truth is, soulmates probably don’t exist for ENTPs. Maybe that doesn’t add up.
That’s probably because of the shallow thing. And I’m sorry if that word stings. I’m sure it’s not the best word choice. “Light” might be more appropriate, perhaps. All this soul shit just doesn’t exist in your ENTP world. So, of course it doesn’t make sense. Though I WAS being an asshole, “shallow” was really meant more in opposition to deep. In particular, INFJ depth. In a soul way. I didn’t mean intellectually or even emotionally or anything like that. INFJs are heavy and exhausting, right? ENTPs kinda the opposite of that, no?
Look, I obviously don’t know you or your lady. I shouldn’t make assumptions about your shit. But you put it out there and said you were open-minded to being shown a different perspective. So, yeah, I guess I started to pick some shit apart. I’d be really curious what your INFJ thinks of all these comments. ALL of these comments. 😁
Yeah, so maybe your INFJ “CAN NOT have incredibly close, intimate relationships with anyone without hurting them” and maybe SHE is a covert narcissist (I have no reason to believe this other than taking your word for it). That, however, is not the case with all INFJs my friend. Yeah sure, there are tendencies, but you forget about it being a continuum, dear. And like any type, there’s the possibility of being the lowest ugliest version, and being the most evolved, mature version. I personally don’t think an evolved, mature INFJ is INCAPABLE of having “incredibly close, intimate relationships with anyone without hurting them”.
If you are an ENTP & your partner is an INFJ, then I do believe the Fi id thing is a non-issue for you guys. However, it’s less likely to be because you understand her so incredibly fucking well, and more likely to be because you’re a fucking ENTP! And so the whole deep soul/emotional connection doesn’t even compute. It would be like trying to dance with someone who had no fucking legs. Nullified is right.
(Keep in mind, I am NOT saying that you don’t understand your INFJ incredibly fucking well, like you claim to with so many INFJs…. You could be an INFJ fucking whisperer for all I care… it’s still unlikely to be the reason the Fi id is a non-issue for you guys).
Like, omg. Hi everyone! What’s our definition of soulmate, here? The term and its implications differ greatly among folks.
Doesn’t matter. Haven’t you heard… they don’t exist. 😉😉😉
But I guess here, officially, they’re a figment of childish and imaginative thinking by those who lack introspection and self-work.
Alrighty then. Man, we’re all full of words, aren’t we? I read for a living and now I have to come here and seek it out. Alas, peer interaction.
I tend to agree with the “soulmates don’t exist” philosophy. However, that is me disagreeing with an ideal that most people associate a soulmate with. All of our definitions are so different. For instance, gervin doesn’t believe in soulmates, but someone else looking at his relationship with his INFJ mate (he said mate, right? Nope, he said partner, just saw it.) as a soulmate relationship. Mainly because they understand each other and probably most importantly, themselves.
Is there an ideal? Of course. But it remains in our thoughts as an ideal, an aspiration for perfection just as we have ideals for many aspects of life. That is all I believe. It aligns with gervin’s thoughts.
As far as understanding goes…There is the ‘conceptualized understanding’ where someone “gets” something and then there is “experienced understanding’. When the former kind of understanding is achieved, control is applied to the dynamic. Control meaning, you might control your tone or approach when communicating or interacting with someone because you understand their dog just died OR you understand they’re an INFJ and they want to eat your soul – Blake’s words, “eat your soul” – hilarious. Control can also come in the form of respecting someone’s boundaries. “Experienced understanding’ is when someone understands something because they literally went through the same thing.
All that said, understanding doesn’t necessarily mean anything. It’s the application which matters but which some people do and other don’t. Or, sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. Just because someone understands, doesn’t mean shit. Human relations are fickle things. And I think we’ve realized this over time. So, what we do instead is idealize and call something soulmate which is super rare, meaning non-existent or if only for a moment and might use it as a reason for relationship failure -“oh he wasn’t the one”. Obviously not, but not for that reason. In knowing no one is ever perfect ever, we simply resort to fulfilling individual needs. Intellectual, carnal, spiritual, experience-seeking needs OR take antidepressants.
Finding it hard to conclude my thoughts. Blah!
As I’m typing this, I see lots of other funny posts.
It’s making me think, we just need a good lay and be done with it all, sheesh!
Ooh, hi Erika! 🙂 I’d say a soulmate is someone who can soothe an itch as bad as the one caused by chigger bites.
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Fucking love it
“What’s our definition of soulmate, here? The term and its implications differ greatly among folks.”
Exactly, Erika! Btw, hi!!
Erica love your question – it is the question which I am personaly most interested in.
I might not describe it exactly right but descriptions of infj relationships from infj perspective is something like:
Infj-entp: silences id and enables growth of tertiary function
Infj-enfp: familiarity and tension – its core erotic (power?) play
Infj-estp: marriage material – I guess its core is practicality
Infj-infj: complicated
It was suggested by Blake, that first one is soulmate type of relationship, and I can see why. Entp makes infj not so focused on end of the process, but on process itself – and entp can teach infj to actually enjoy in experiencing the process. But in infjs (I speak of how I experience it) there is constant tension between Ni and Fi. Ni is what infj is made to do. And infj always tries to recognise that, what is his/her essence – and only then actualise it. And id function (Fi) comes in and makes infj resentful, tired and disinterested. You can see that very clearly if you read some Dostoevsky novels or some Nietzsche – for example in Zarathustra, Zarathustra is always bouncing from “man must overcome himself” and “I am tired and it is not worth it”. My point is – entp can make infj focus on the process, but at the end infj needs to come down to his/her core and express it. And I don’t see (I am not saying, that it is not possible) how entp can help him do that. And again. The first time I actually felt understood down to my core was when I read Brothers Karamazov. I was feeling that again when I read Nietzsche. Those are infjs, not entps. I can’t know what carley (exactly) meant, when she said, that she needs to be understood – but I second her statement – as I will always be searching for this feeling Dostoevsky gave me in a real, actually alive person. Being together in the same existential task – to me that is being soul mate. I think Nietzsche expressed this urge to – he had this concept of free spirits, and he writes somewhere he basically made them up when he felt really alone – those who create together.
And I think only two infjs can really be two creating souls together in existential task – to express themselves, to create together. I was writing from infj POV but I think you can extract the underlying pattern.
I don’t think Blake ever said that ENTP-INFJ is a soulmate type of relationship, but I find the rest of your post very insightful. Thanks a lot! And here, I am guessing you are talking about sun types only. I think from now on we should clarify every single usage of an MBTI type with a sun/moon/rising descriptor or something. SHEESH it is getting confusing with mixup of terminologies here. Soulmate, INFJ sun vs. moon, “understanding,” deep itch, WHAT DOES THAT ALL MEAN?! Ha! 😛
“WHAT DOES THAT ALL MEAN?! Ha!”
I feel slightly guilty. Cause if I hadn’t been such a dick last night, this shit might have not been stirred up, ha.
Actually this is completely possible, that Blake never suggested that. But I know this was implied somewhere on stellar maze – I probably read something on stellar maze, and now I remember what was written and not who was writing – so yeah, I take that back, it is more true if I write that I have got this impression on stellar maze.
Anyway, regarding your question, whether I mean sun types – I don’t know really, to be honest. That is why I have joined this discussion – to clarify my categories. I have written a comment about sun/moon infj relationships, or more truly, about sky/chthonic infj relationship above – but I somehow know I equivocate this terms: woman, moon, chthonic (and man, sky, sun); as I have written above, all this is fresh for me and I need to work on it. Sun/moon concept is astrologically based, but I don’t have background knowledge about astrology. I can tell you I am libra sun, pisces moon, aquarious rising, sun in 8th house, many planets in scorpio. But I don’t know really what this tells, even though I am surprised how much of this signs play crucial role in Blake’s take on mbti (edit: I ment Blake’s fussion of infj psychology and mbti). I am fascinated to be honest. But as I am better with mythology, I prefer to make shift to sky/chthonic dichotomy. But then again, I have no idea if that means equivocation and related troubles. As I have written, I need to figure it out, and here you are – people actually interested in this stuff. Hello 🙂
But I got to say, I read your comment and in some sense you written some of things I wanted but didn’t know how to. So thank you 🙂
@Verbum
Hello! 🙂 I am also a Libra Sun with Aquarius rising, Sun in 8th house too. Hmm.
I think this discussion is a bit of a clusterfuck, haha, but it’s fun and helpful for me to learn. Blake hasn’t properly defined the difference between INFJ sun vs. INFJ moon…but I think you can see the difference based on Carley’s and Nur’s posts (both are INFJ moons) and Gervin’s description of his INFJ Sun woman and…ha, *my* posts (I am an INFJ sun).
I think Sky can be another way to register Sun and Chthonic for Moon, yeah. I think based on your definition of soulmate INFJ-INFJ relationship, it sounds like a pairing between two INFJ sun types. Joining up in the same “existential task” as you said sounds like an Apollonion/Sky expression of the INFJ type. My guess is that an INFJ moon (chthonic expression) will not be able to even arrive at such an objective. It is negative in expression…and not constructive. Like a full embodiment of Fi id, fermenting, unrelenting INFJ id desires. The higher expression of fulfilling INFJ-Ni purpose will not be seen in an INFJ moon. That’s my guess.
Having said that, the INFJ-INFJ sun pairing you suggested is probably going to be pretty difficult, unless there is full commitment to the shared higher Ni purpose on both sides. And that’ll be hard. INFJ sun-INFJ moon pairing, as Blake suggested above is likely to work out better. But an INFJ sun-INFJ moon pairing will likely not revolve around completing a shared Ni-purpose, due to the nature of the INFJ moon. BUT THAT’S JUST MY GUESS. I should probably shut up because I’m spreading around speculation everywhere, but I’m pretty fired up today. Can’t seem to stop.
But yeah. What is the actual difference between INFJ sun and INFJ moon? I think the only real answers will come in Blake’s forthcoming article. Which we are all dying to read. 😉
Anyways, I’m glad you joined this discussion!! Please stick along! The astrology bit is also scattered all across this website, so there will be quite a bit of perusing to do, if you want to learn some more. Some day, someone will have to organise all this shit so it will be more accessible.
@Schlopadoo It is like you written above, “WHAT DOES THAT ALL MEAN?!” I know! 😀 it is all so deliciously complicated and I just what to understand it all – yes, my Ti nature: – can I please refine my categories? Yes? I love you! – that is how it behaves. Could read this stuff all day long 😀
Anyways, no, I haven’t meant that comment to which you firstly replied, I made before one to Blake but you probably haven’t seen it as the first comment had to wait moderation. It was quite messy, but it is always one big mess when you infuse theory in personal experience. I was getting to infj-sun infj-moon type of relationships, or more precisely, infj-sky and chthonic-infj dynamic. For some reason seems wrong, if I write sun-infj or moon-infj but I’ll have to contemplate on that one to realise why. Anyway, if you are interested in what was I getting at regarding infj-infj relationships, look for a comment I firstly made here under Davex17 comment, where Blake is asked whether he backtracked. For me it was kind of synchronicity, as I was thinking about infj-infj relationships and then saw that comment exchange. Anyway, it is quite probably not written in a way he meant these terms, but he is the only one actually using these terms so at least I can work on question, what we mean when we use specific words. If he uses moon and I think about chthonic, we are not perfectly aligned, but we are not also completely on the other side. And it truly is one big mess – when we talk about overlapping between concepts of astrology, gender and mythological symbolism – regarding mbti type – where is there actual overlapping and where it ends?
(ps, you probably noticed, that I made edit and then failed at editing, it was meant fusion of infj psychology and astrology. I am exhausted and it is late here, but I feel stupid anyway. But I need correction because – it was fail 😀 )
I’m just going to chime here quietly that I wrote a whole fucking post about clarifying definitions and the problem of discussing INFJ-Ni “spiritual” shit, since this stuff tends to get confounded by people’s subjective interpretations and usage of Ni terminology (referring to Blake’s “The Differences” here)…but I deleted it. Haha. I think the problem is that Gervin means understanding INFJ on perhaps a mental…and/or “spiritual” level (and here I am, being guilty of using terms that I might not be using accurately, heh). I agree with him here, especially if we mean an INFJ sun. However, you mean “understanding” by something that almost resembles love, like a higher form of love that is met on all planes. This includes soul/emotional connection, which would be entailed by Fi-id, that “deep itch” you’re referring to. I agree with you here. I would envision that an ENTP would NOT meet this criteria for either the INFJ sun or moon.
But that intellectual and spiritual understanding of INFJs, yes, I think an ENTP could achieve that, describing the INFJ with brilliant, crispy little words that’d make my brain and spirit dance. And that alone can bring lots of fulfilment to an INFJ sun’s life, because true INFJ suns have a movement away from their Fi id. They have constructive and positive INFJ aspirations that go beyond just meeting the Fi id. And relating with an ENTP will bring delicious interaction between the communicative Ti/Fe and Fe/Ti axes and spiritual fulfilment via appreciation of one another’s Ni/Ne dominant points of views. An ENTP is likely to help an INFJ engage in that Fe auxiliary and move her towards Ti tertiary away from the Fi id. And INFJs love Ti tertiary. So if the Fi id is channeled through positive Ni/Fe projects outside of the relationship, I can see how the ENTP not meeting an INFJ at the Fi id would still be okay for the INFJ sun woman, due to all the other goodies an ENTP would bring. The question is how long and sustainable this sort of relationship will be. If we’re talking about long-term monogamous relationships, this might be hard, as the INFJ deep desire to relate and connect at the soul level will come back periodically. Nevertheless, the relationship will have a positive and memorable impact on both sides, for sure.
My prediction: A male ENTP sun in a relationship with a female INFJ *moon*? NO FUCKING WAY. Nope. My guess is that Fi id in an INFJ moon woman is likely to be more heavily and negatively expressed, meaning that the Fi id in an INFJ moon subtype will be too strong, too demanding, too desiring to “receive” to ever possibly be happy with an ENTP sun man. After all, the ENTP will never be able to directly feed the receptive Fi id, and the other goodies he’d bring to an INFJ sun would do jack shit for an INFJ moon woman. So I can understand why you are getting emotional and emphatic here.
Y’all know I ain’t no INFJ sun. But I feel the need to stress some of your words schlops. Cause I think they are fucking true as shit for any INFJ placement…
“the INFJ deep desire to relate and connect at the soul level will come back periodically”
Like I said. ENTP energy = good for INJF. I guess this is because of the movement away from the Fi id. It’s fucking needed. You know, to like breathe sometimes. Like, you just need some fucking fresh air. I get it. I would imagine many ENTPs “understand” how refreshing they are for INFJs.
And if the “Fi id itch is channeled through positive Ni/Fe projects outside of the relationship”, that of course will help significantly. BUT will it really be enough? When that deep desire hits??
All I’m saying is there are some DEEP needs that will never be met by the ENTP. Maybe more so for a lunar INFJ, but also for a solar one. And that’s probably fucking fine for a lot of people. But don’t pretend it’s perfect, is all I’m saying. Don’t pretend the ENTP is fulfilling the INFJ fully and in some perfect way. I think that’s likely bullshit.
And don’t go around making INFJs feel shitty about those deep fucking goddamned needs.
Just out of curiosity schlops, do you think INFJs “CAN NOT have incredibly close, intimate relationships with anyone without hurting them”?
@carley
“Just out of curiosity schlops, do you think INFJs “CAN NOT have incredibly close, intimate relationships with anyone without hurting them”?”
I’m probably the wrong person to ask because I’ve only had one proper romantic relationship ever in my life. 😉 Not my area of expertise, especially due to my lack of interest in relationships.
It’ll probably be difficult, but not impossible. Also, what mortal being does NOT hurt their significant other at some point in their life? All close, intimate relationships will bring hurts inflicted by either ends. INFJs in particular might be hurtful to the point of making these relationships not work, but nothing is impossible. Maturity and awareness of the nastiness within are probably the first steps towards making intimate relationships work for an INFJ. And a willing partner to cooperate. Pretty standard answer, I know. Heh.
I don’t feel fit to answer. Not enough life experience. Not enough romantic partners. And not enough people I’ve banged (dammit).
“Also, what mortal being does NOT hurt their significant other at some point in their life?”
Yeah. I started to write this about 10 times but felt it would fall on deaf ears. For some odd reason.
I for one appreciate your input a fuckton. Actually.
So thanks. 😊
Also, personal experience only goes so far. You can be an insightful motherfucker without having personal experience in this lifetime.
How many assholes out there have a shit ton of experience and don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about?
I know you’ve come across one or two of these people schlops. 😀
MY 2 pitiful fucking cents…. You are very fucking fit.
“Pretty standard answer, I know. Heh.”
Yeah. That’s the other thing. Things get boring and less exciting when you are talking to sensible people. That’s how it normally goes anyways.
And to be honest, this is something I struggle with all the fucking time. I’m not as exciting and interesting as many may think here. Pretty goddamned fucking sensible. 😒
@carley Wow… looks as if my words really did rattle you this time. Oh dear. As I said, you can’t hurt me with words so don’t worry about. Be as much of an asshole as you want my dear I have many INFJs in my life and I know how to handle you guys.
It has become very apparent to me that you and I are defining our terms differently. I suggest you go back and re-read the article above to really see what your nature is and how it pertains to your ability to “emotionally connect” with someone as a soulmate. It is painfully accurate. You guys simply won’t do it. You will emotionally devour the man whilst simultaneously keeping your guard up. This isn’t a true connection in my books. A true connection is of equal giving. Something an INFJ simply can not do due to her nature whilst simultaneously longing for it.
Now, that is not to say that an INFJ can not “perceive” a connection exists for a moment in time. Let me explain.
Blake made a very interesting statement regarding ENTPs and INFJs. He said something along the lines of this:-
“INFJs are to the SUBJECTIVE what ENTPs are to the OBJECTIVE”
This is a simply brilliant summary of our two types and let me explain how this relates to your Fi function.
I do not believe that your Fi itch can ever be fully satisfied. Not for the long term anyway. Why? Because an INFJs perception of reality is purely subjective to themselves. What is “truth” for an INFJ one moment, will not be “truth” for an INFJ the following week. Now, most INFJs are totally oblivious to this tendency and no amount of arguing will make them see. However, more highly “evolved” INFJs are totally aware of this.
The same applies to your Fi. The “need” you have to have this scratched is only really understood in a conceptual sense. It is a totally dynamic, chaotic and undermining function. Even if somebody manages to satisfy it for a time (which I don’t believe they will), it’s “desires” will change and will do so suddenly. You won’t even be aware of this consciously as an INFJ. Instead, you will project fault onto your partner (because that is the reality you see) and instead see them as no longer being the person as they once were.
It is almost a cruel game. The moment you feel you’ve figured it out. It all changes. Again and again, ad infinitum. Though most INFJs are totally clueless that this is in fact going on. They can’t, because the hardest thing to do for most INFJs is truly facing themselves. Many don’t even know who they really are.
Trying to satisfy this itch is like trying to treat an alcoholic with alcohol.
As for my partner, she says you sound incredibly young and still a bit immature. She agrees with the article. Trying to get a man to satisfy her Fi ID is almost like the ultimate subconscious shit test. Will he pass or fail? If he goes there, she will have zero respect or attraction for him left.
“What is “truth” for an INFJ one moment, will not be “truth” for an INFJ the following week”
If you believe this to be true for all INFJs, is this the case for your INFJ as well?
Sounds to me like you know mostly very unhealthy and unstable INFJs.
“If you believe this to be true for all INFJs, is this the case for your INFJ as well?”
This has been the case for every INFJ I have ever met yes. Some are worse than others. Problem is you guys don’t see it because through your lens it is simply “reality”. It is very difficult for you guys to be cognitively aware of this.
As an ENTP (and being of the objective) it is quite easy for me to see it because I have plenty of experience with INFJs and understand how they operate. I notice the shifts in reality when I deal with them all the time. It’s become quite amusing to me to be honest.
Thank fuck all those INFJs have you in their lives to keep them straight.😎
“Trying to satisfy this itch is like trying to treat an alcoholic with alcohol.”
Very interesting analogy.
So I guess I should deny and suppress my INFJ deep itch? Is that what you mean? Forget about that poison bubbling inside of me. God forbid, don’t scratch it or address it. That could be bad for my mental health and all.
I’m sure you’re totally right.
“So I guess I should deny and suppress my INFJ deep itch? Is that what you mean? Forget about that poison bubbling inside of me. God forbid, don’t scratch it or address it. That could be bad for my mental health and all.”
It isn’t to deny your itch, it is to manage it as best as you can. As this blog has pointed out several times. You do this with Fe. You literally Fe the shit out of it.
Most INFJs totally suck at using Fe. As an ENTP I can safely say that I am better at using Fe than all the INFJs I know. Most INFJs are far more engaged with Fi than Fe.
Look we all have shit qualities pertaining to our type. ENTPs suck at following through and finishing shit. We just need to deal with it. I have to force myself to use Ti all the time and use all kinds of time management systems to keep me on track.
Yeah I get the Fe solution.
I didn’t get that’s what you meant from your analogy. My misunderstanding clearly. Cause you know, giving an alcoholic alcohol isn’t great. So I thought you were suggesting “trying to satisfy this itch”, by say scratching it or addressing it, was also bad.
Again, clearly I misunderstood what you meant by your analogy. 😁
What do you mean by immune to their Fi id? I’ve always understood it vaguely but if I try to figure out specifically what it means I’m not sure.
ah Blake… the crux of the matter is – the soulmate that an INFJ is looking for is ourselves.
Nobody can please us, can hurt us, can bring us happiness in the most profound way possible but our own – psyche, spirit, soul.
We will travel the world to find our twin flame and come to realize that we are our true home.
Hey Blake, young ENTP here and don’t understand typolog or astrology as much in depth as you.
Could you please explain what intimacy like an efforontry mean?
I just met an INFJ in my life and she’s gret and I am beginnin to fall for her. Should I stop? You said if someone fallsin love with her it’s a turn off for her. I,am confused. What should I do to keep her..?
BLAKE, pls reply – is this a relationship I should steer clear from? Help, I can’t stop thinking about her. why is a relationship with them deadly on an emotional level?
I’m not Blake, but I’ll chip in my 2 cents in case you’d want to hear. You know what I think? [drumroll]
…
Why are you so scared? Why do you care so much about what one dude on this entire planet thinks? Why do you need approval from Blake to check whether you should steer clear of a relationship with someone you’re clearly into?
The stuff posted on this website are insights from one smart dude…who could be (and has been) wrong at times. Also, each MBTI portrait is just that…a portrait, an archetypal example that will not 100% apply to every single instance of that particular type. Which means that if (and I mean a big “if”) your crush/gf/lover is indeed an INFJ according to “Stellar Mazian Typology,” then there is a chance she could be like the “INFJ Woman in Love” described in this article… or not.
THEREFORE, you know what I personally think? If you’re into her, then just go for it. MBTI insights are useful when you don’t have a clue what to do with whatever situation you’re in…or if you need to understand the why behind how something is or how a relationship has turned out… BUT, what I don’t think MBTI insights are good for is to dissuade somebody from pursuing someone or something that he/she already feels good about. Too much risk at hand, especially given that MBTI isn’t even an exact science, and arguably isn’t even really a science at all by modern day terms.
So stop giving the keys to MBTI or Blake or anyone. YOU have the keys. Do what feels right to you. If you like something or someone, PURSUE it. Do not look to MBTI to stop you from doing what attracts you. And most importantly, DO NOT let yourself be controlled by fear.
I hear too many people going, “I’m too scared to do this because maybe it won’t turn out right. Or maybe I’d be bad at it, etc etc.” Bullshit. Wrong attitude from the start. Usually, the problem isn’t when one makes a “wrong” decision, as a sizeable portion of decision-making entails choices/pathways that can be easily or at least somewhat reversed. I consider dating to fall within that boat. Marriage would be an entirely different story. But in any case, you’re not getting married. You’re just dating. The more experience, the better I’d say. I think the bigger problem lies more within not mustering the courage to leave a shit situation.
So. Try things. And if it doesn’t turn out right or you get bad vibes… Then leave! And if you’re not sure whether things are good or bad, then don’t get too hasty, continue observing patiently, and trust yourself to make the right judgment in the end. I like that attitude best. I think it makes people feel the sanest.
All in all, Life is a grand experiment. And MBTI is just a theory. So just trust your guts. And if you have beloved friends and family, treasure them with all your might. I would not look to this article to confirm whether or not you “should” enter a relationship with this INFJ of yours, just because she may supposedly “suck your soul.” A more worthy opinion is from those who truly know you and are honest and caring enough to inform you what they think of your relationship and how you seem as the liaison progresses. Actuality vs Theory.
Au revoir. Enjoy that rare pleasure Chance throws at you. If you really are ENTP, you should know all about that lovely entity called Chance.
Sincerely,
An actual INFJ, according to SM land. 😉
that’s some great advice