Both INTJs and INFJs are introverted intuitive types. But, how the two types externalize their introverted intuitive perceptions is vastly different. Basically the primary difference comes down to Thinking vs. Feeling. The most evident way this is manifested is in the personalities of the two types. What I mean by personality is how they show forth the traits of their temperaments. Their temperaments are the same, that being introverted intuition as I said. INFJ has an extraverted Feeling personality and INTJ has an extraverted Thinking personality. This is roughly the difference between power and adaptability.
In well-known people you will often see a symbiosis between the INFJ and INTJ. You can see it in Arthur Schopenhauer’s influence on Friedrich Nietzsche, Bob Dylan’s influence on John Lennon, and Peter Gabriel’s influence on Kate Bush, to give a few examples.
Often, INTJs take INFJ impulses and ideas and elaborate on them. They basically give them more objective power. INFJs have a lot less power to organize and arrange their ideas in an objective form. INTJs have the power to understand INFJs second-to-none, yet INTJs face outward towards the world with more of an eye towards objective considerations. The INTJ philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche’s influence by INFJ philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer’s concept of “will” is an excellent example of this phenomenon. Basically, they saw the basic problem the same way, but their solutions to it were very different. Schopenhauer’s solution to the problem of “will” basically lay in methods to kill the “will” in oneself, whereas Nietzsche’s solution was to strengthen the “will” in oneself to such an extent that one becomes a superior being of willing, an concept that he termed “Ubermensch”, which translates into “Overman” in English, becoming the equivalent of a Superman.
The differences between these two philosopher’s answers to the true nature of reality is an apt summation of the differences between INFJ and INTJ. They see in similar ways, and often this seeing involves identifying the true nature of reality at an existential level, but the answer each type is liable to propose of how to live in that reality are likely to be quite at odds with each other. An INFJ will usually call for a softer way than the INTJ, the latter of whom will generally advocate a harsher and more vigorous mode of response. However, they are both harsh and unrelenting in their ability to penetrate beneath the surfaces of phenomena to glean the fundamental essence, whether they like this essence or not. I think it would be fair to say they usually don’t.
An INFJ will usually express this fundamental vision in a way that takes people’s preferences into account. An INTJ will be more concerned with the bitter truth at all costs, even if these truths are very displeasing and antagonistic to human comfort, or the ability of the average person to live in such an inhospitable fundamental reality.
An INFJ is usually more pleasing of other people’s sensibilities and tastes when they set about to a task. They are, in short, people-oriented. However, they can be intentionally mystifying rather than brusque like an INTJ. It comes down to a hard vs. soft thing. INFJs are softer in their presentation than an INTJ. Though, their visions are usually similar in that they are hard-edged and intense. So, often the distinction between them cannot be seen if either type is not using their auxiliary function, which happen quite a lot. However, there will always be the vestiges and traces of these function there so close and acute observation is necessary when making these determinations.
Bob Dylan is a good example of an INFJ who wasn’t using their Fe auxiliary too much. If you watch interviews of Dylan (Youtube) he often comes across as the opposite of a person that is people-pleasing. But the thing is he had this capability all too well and refused to use it for Ni reasons. Actually, he often used Fe to constantly morph and shapeshift and put people off his scent in their game of questioning him. What you see in Dylan is almost pure Ni and Fi.
The Fi is usually what you feel in an INFJ who is not using Fe. It is kind of like Fi is underneath or behind the Fe and if the Fe is used then it eradicates the impression of it but if it isn’t used then you are left with the backwater Fi which is usually unpleasantly manifested in INFJs. The impression conveyed is one of evasiveness.
INTJs, on the other hand, aren’t evasive, and quite the opposite, will attempt to answer questions put forth to them even if it is in an acidic and biting manner. INTJs are more game to joust in a verbal match or game.
An INFJ is likely to confuse a person so badly by a quixotic and uncertain response that they are lead off the trail of their inquiries. It is kind of the difference between a bite and being snuffed out. Extraverted Thinking has a bite to it, while extraverted Feeling is smothering and covering up. You have to develop a feel for this in these two types. It is an aid to identification.
Surface Presentation and Work Methods
INTJs present as taut, tense, awake, conscious, and active. INFJs, by contrast, present as slack, loose, sleepy, and unconscious. Keep in mind this is a relative determination and has more to do with their respective personalities (Fe vs. Te) not their temperaments, which are the same (Ni) and is a very active temperament. INFJs are more embracing and blending with people. INTJs are more antagonistic, cold, and unfriendly towards people. INTJs tend to be businesslike and formidable in their approach, while INFJs are generally more casual and approachable.
INTJs plan and undertake projects in an orderly and linear fashion, whereas, INFJs can be comparatively sloppy and inefficient when they attempt to plan out their work. INFJs work more absolutely by inspiration and the mood of the moment. INTJs are good at breaking up tasks into sections, completing each section in a consistent manner according to some method, then arranging all the sections upon completion into a sequence that represents each section’s relative hierarchical importance in the whole. An INFJ is likely not to have things divided into discrete sections and whatever the results of their work, it is likely to be less consistent, methodical and repeatable than an INTJs similar efforts. They work more by impulse and intimations. However, they can hit upon things that no other type could for precisely this reason. An INFJ has a vison of the undivided whole that not even the INTJ can get at. In short, the vision that they are trying to enumerate either comes through in a more absolute fashion or doesn’t come through at all.
Inner emotional natures (Cats vs. Scorpions)
INTJs are like cats. You know how cats have very little need of affection and act stand-offish and aloof, coming to you when they want something. That is INTJs, pretty unemotional. Yes, deep down inside too. This is not to say they aren’t passionate because they definitely are in some way. No, it just that INTJs have very little need of emotional reassurance. And when they do, they will go looking for it from the people that they deem worthy of them.
INFJs, by contrast, have a great need for deep emotional connection, but, in their case, they will often hide this, especially if they are men. In both cases, INFJ men and women are rather exclusive about who they will have these deep emotions with.
INTJs are actually more playful with deep emotions than an INFJ. So, when they decide to turn them on, you can get into a nice intellectual discussion with them about why their parents might have fucked them up or into something of a psychological nature. They treat it rather impersonally though, more as an intellectual exercise or a mental stimulation. INTJs can actually be deeply in touch with their pain but their pain is more related to archetypal abstractions of their emotional encounters rather than as a real felt personal feeling.
What I’m trying to say is that INTJs are drier in nature. They don’t let feelings touch them too much unless it is unavoidable such as in people they fall deeply in love with, but that is another story. Yes, in those cases, they are liable to unusual suffering because of their emotional setup, which is, let us say, subpar.
INFJs, by contrast, are wet and live in this world of emotion at a very fundamental level. This may cause them more suffering quantitatively because they are always falling in love with the idea of love and dreaming of ideal romantic encounters. But, they have the equipment to navigate these waters. INTJs mostly stay dry. When they don’t, well, just look what the cat dragged in. Also, you know how cats hate getting wet. Similar thing. Study cats to better understand the INTJ emotional nature.
INTJs generally don’t like slobbering dogs, slobbering babies, and just anything that is very dependent and somewhat childish and helpless, especially if these creatures are dependent on them. INFJs really don’t like these things either but they are generally willing to display much more tolerance towards them.
Just set your expectations right with INTJs and you’ll be fine. Let them come to you, that is, if they are so inclined to be in association with you in the first place. Otherwise, you will meet an impenetrable metal fortress with an ice palace inside that will freeze you to death if you go about cavalierly poking into their icy emotional recessed. But, O how beautiful that ice is in the way that an idea of an emotion is beautiful.
INFJs, on the other hand, will sting you to death if you attempt to meddle with their inner emotional nature. Their emotions are very hot, contrary to the INTJ. Think scorpion stings. You know how scorpions will sting themselves to death if they feel they are going to be killed at the hands (paws, fangs) of some other creature. INFJs emotional nature is very analogous to that. INFJs are very capable of engaging in deep, emotional interplay with other fellow humans. But, you have to understand that there is something very special waiting for those who choose to engage in a deep romantic/sexual relationship with these hard-edged romantics. Where an impenetrable kingdom of ice and maze is waiting for the paramours of INTJs, a hell of every negative emotion under the sun is awaiting those who dare to love the INFJ.
So, they are both alike in this hardness of sorts, but for different reasons, one for an undercapacity and the other for an overcapacity. If you go poking into the INTJ emotions you will be put into a deep freeze. If you go gallivanting into INFJ emotions you are going to be burned, stung, and poisoned. However, with INFJs you are not likely to know this right off the bat because they can seem relatively warm and inviting compared to an INTJ.
Art vs. Science
Both these types are going to both be more into their work than their relationships. They are both driven by visions, however, the background of their respective visions are usually different, which is tantamount to saying that the problems that they inherit or the broader lineages to which they belong, are different. Their visions can roughly be broken down into the difference between the NF and NT classes which David Kiersey, the well-known Myers-Briggs typologist, devised. This difference can again be roughly broken down into the difference between the subjective and the objective, or the self and the world.
INFJs are more interested in doing work that involves the unfolding of their inner selves, and while INTJs also share this to some extent, they are more apt to be interested and talented at work that involves a hard science element as well as a profession that calls for technical and mechanical skills. I would be hard-pressed to come up with any INFJs that I know of that have ever been truly great at a hard science domain, especially something that involves the applied use of those skills in something like engineering. INTJs can actually be involved in the hard sciences in an excelling manner and do groundbreaking work.
Both these types are primed to break new ground in their respective spheres. The INFJ sphere par excellence is anything that is more an art than a science, anything that relies more on subjective factors and where something is more open to a range of interpretations. That being said, INFJs can do really well with the purely theoretical aspects of the sciences. However, they are generally advised not to make a career out of this propensity because they simply do not have enough sustain and efficiency with the Thinking function to handle objective logic for long periods of time. So, if you are looking at famous personages from the scientific world that seem to have been inspired from within but yet have had the ability to apply those inner intuitions to the world of objects, then you are much, much more likely to be dealing with an INTJ than an INFJ.
However, the opposite is not true. INTJs can also excel in the arts as well as the sciences. They will not be able to deal with the Feeling values of the arts as well as INFJs but because the arts favor many different approaches and there is less ability to say what is or isn’t art or what is good or bad art, according to some absolute objective standard, INTJs can excel here too, employing their typically minimalistic or avant-garde approach to artistic productions, for example.
Now, INTJ art is likely to be harder to assimilate than an INFJ’s art but upon repeated listening or viewings you can (if inclined) move past that into the essential subjective ideas they are presenting through their art. This is not as true in the sciences of today, but I can imagine a day where there is a subject-referenced science, and then INFJs will excel in that. Things like psychology, astrology, philosophy approach this standard.
An INFJ can do both minimalism in art on into extreme lushness and color. They can blaze off every color of the feeling spectrum. INTJs cannot usually do this. And quite the contrary, one usually has a monochromatic feeling when listening to INTJ art as if there was a good skeleton in place but devoid of flesh and blood and all that stuff that goes on top of a skeleton like blood and lymph (unless we are talking exoskeletal creatures). There is minimal ability to flesh out the feeling values that art often entails. A prime example of this is the musical compositions of Igor Stravinsky, the neo-classical composer. For the more humanistic side of the INTJ, check out the solo work of John Lennon. Barebones emotional truth.
For contrasting examples in the INFJ type, check out the work of the visual artist Jean-Michel Basquiat. Look him up in Google images to see some of his art. No INTJ could ever paint like that. The way he uses color and whimsy in expressing his vision is something unprecedented among INTJs.
Conclusion
INFJs and INTJs are very similar and are two of the hardest types to distinguish from each other. At their extremes they become easier to distinguish but with real people in real time, they can resemble each other that it is hard to come to a definitive conclusion about which of the two types you are dealing with. The two types can approach each other very closely. They are both introverted intuitive types. I would say that the differences in their type code between Thinking and Feeling should give you a definitive impression of their differences, but it is a misnomer to think that an INFJ can’t use the Thinking function at all and that the INTJ can’t use the Feeling function at all. It is rather a matter of how efficiently they can use them, over long periods of time. INTJ will have little ability to use extraverted Feeling at all successfully but they have a good measure of introverted Feeling, which enables them to render deep emotional values in domains like art, giving them a humanistic edge that approaches INFJ in a similar capacity.
INFJs have little ability to use extraverted Thinking but have a good measure of introverted Thinking, which enables them to flourish in domains of pure theory and speculation that are thought typically to be the province of Intuitive Thinking types. This can give INFJs a scientific tinge that can fool people into thinking they are INTJs, or even INTPs. However, it is more a matter of the amount and efficiency than the ability to use thinking or feeling for either type. An INFJ will be much more at home in domains that call for Feeling values, which pretty much excludes the hard sciences in terms of a career path. Not all the time, mind you, but in the vast majority of cases. INTJs similarly can’t breathe too well in any situation that calls for extended periods of utilizing Feeling values, especially Feeling values that are overtly expressive, colorful, wide-ranging, and quickly changing.
Think of it like this; An INFJ will have your typical rainbow with all seven colors in them while an INTJ will have a rainbow with the seven shades of grey from black at one end of the spectrum and white at the other.
What, a grey rainbow doesn’t sound appealing? O, if you mere mortals only knew.
Related Articles:
INFJ vs. INFP
Tertiary Temptation in INFJ
Fi in INFJs
INFJ: Least Likely to be Who You Think They Are
I have to say, this is possibly both the most enlightening and most beautifully written article dealing with personality that I have read in a long time! Thank you!
I am a female INFJ, and one of my long time best friends is a male INTJ. Comparing and contrasting us in the way that you have here was extremely helpful! We are now joking each other about iciness, deep freezes, and burning fiery furnaces. Haha.
The metaphors were simply wonderful! Thank you again.
I feel blessed that you feel blessed. And yes, upon rereading this article, I would have to agree with you. I did a pretty good job.
Are all the articles on this site made by the same person? Because I don’t think you guys like INFJs very much. You fall into the same pitfalls that most other people do – namely providing descriptions based more off of modern female INFJs instead of INFJs in general. Also, as I said, you just don’t seem to paint INFJs in as positive a light as you do other types.
That being said, your work has so much potential. Keep at it. Despite my reservations, I would still recommend this article to my friends.
All the articles on site are by one person. I like INFJs but that doesn’t exempt them from gritty analyses. I enjoy seeing a type stripped of all its flowery embroidery, to see it more truly and honestly. This actually helps me to appreciate a type more and to know what they look like in reality.
All the descriptions are based on INFJS in general, not just modern female INFJs.
Glad you still feel you would recommend the site to a friend. I heartily enjoin you to do so.
Actually I think the author somehow likes INFJs. A maybe even a lot. Because he/she takes the time to analyze them pretty well.
as an infj, i really wanna become a scientist, i wanna know about the world and how the universe works, but i know it will somehow…dry me up.
i love expressing myself though art but i hate art, it’s unrealistic just like me.
Ha, too funny. Well, look around. Choose your own ground.
There’s a lot of realistic art, what are you talking about.
I have read only two of your articles, the ones on INFJ. The first one I thought was a little to scathing but amusing. This article I find to be even more amusing and found the more scathing parts strangely endearing. In the sense that most people in my life don’t see the parts of me that I know are there such as you said here, “If you go gallivanting into INFJ emotions you are going to be burned, stung, and poisoned. However, with INFJs you are not likely to know this right off the bat because they can seem relatively warm and inviting compared to an INTJ.” Your article is endearing because it makes me feel more human since I am like this. It is hard to make others see this less favorable side of myself since I hid it so well usually to protect the persons feelings. I’m glad you highlight it though because I can often feel like I am better than other people because I am so invested in my relationships.
I am in a relationship (5 1/2 years) with an INTJ. Personally I think that this relationship has helped me to grow as a person because it has forced me to accept that the way in which I interact with the world isn’t necessarily the right way. The ice and fire cancel each other out but usually only if we want them to, now we usually just go our separate ways and come back when the ice isn’t as cold and the fire isn’t has hot ( less “hardness”). I have to remember that he has an “impenetrable metal fortress with an ice palace inside that will freeze you to death if you go about cavalierly poking into their icy emotional recesses.” Also I would like to hear more about this, “They don’t let feelings touch them too much unless it is unavoidable such as in people they fall deeply in love with, but that is another story.” He can be so passionate and loving and that passion used to be more directed towards me. But I suppose that early on I confused that passion with depth of emotion since we are so similar in our introverted intuition. The most important thing that I have learned from my relationship with him is that I need other people in my life that I can connect emotionally with or I will die a slow painful death of resentment waiting for my INTJ to come out of his “ice palace”. Mostly I wish that he would appreciate my abilities more, “they can hit upon things that no other type could” and “the vision of the undivided whole.” He often thinks that my system is flawed and that alone is really quite insulting. Even though he thinks that I am intelligent he only comes to this conclusion from his empirical evidence that I do really well in school. I major in biology, minor in biochemistry, and have a certificate in biotechnology. SCIENCE. He majors in Chemistry and minors in math. We just had a discussion on climate change because they were talking about it on the radio. They were talking about climate change as if in the future it might be possible to change the earth’s thermostat to whatever we would want. I entered the discussion saying that talking about something so complicated in a simplistic manner was ridiculous since in the end it would simply misinform and possibly scare the public seeing as it implies someone will be in control of the entire Earth’s climate. He entered the discussion talking about article’s he has read in the past where it could be possible to do such a thing and discussing the end result on public radio really wouldn’t have any important negative consequences. I counter with asking a million questions about the system in which the “thermostat” would be controlled. In the end, our discussions always end with my boyfriend wondering why anything I brought up matters and me wondering how my boyfriend lives in this world without considering the whole picture. One other thing which bothers me is that family is really important to me and he could care less although he still communicates with his family on a regular basis. In other words… he is a cat that hates to take a bath. In the end I have learned that I have to focus my romantic/ passionate tendencies towards myself, my aspirations, and my more emotionally inclined friends and family at least until my INTJ leaves his icy palace for a day in the sun. Thank you for this article and I hope I added my two cents in a way that will expand the understanding of the article.
Hi Cambria. First of all, I would like to say that you have hit this whole INFJ matter on the head with what you said in your opening paragraph, “Your article is endearing because it makes me feel more human since I am like this” Yes, that is the whole point to me. I don’t think INFJs can really appreciate themselves when they are painted like untouchable perfect angels all the time. It does a disservice to INFJs to describe them like that, which isn’t to say a lot of that angelic stuff isn’t there in potential, but in my experience, the average INFJ isn’t an angel that is above all considerations. That is a lie. This attitude caters to the worst tendencies in INFJ, which are to think that they are so special and exempt from earthly considerations. It may seem scathing but it also puts in sharper relief the truly excellent qualities of INFJs (I would be the last one to deny the existence of those excellent qualities). It takes some of the pressure off them to be perfect human beings. And as you said, it makes them more endearing because they are human.
As for your relationship quandaries, I want to thank you for sharing so honestly and descriptively. This is helpful, as you said in closing, towards painting a picture of a an actual INFJ (you) and what their actual experience is. These comments are a very important part of this site because it does expand the understanding of the article to hear what people are experiencing in regards to it.
That being said, I can’t solve the problem you are having with your INTJ paramour. You have to decide how to proceed based on your feelings, thoughts, and perceptions. I also don’t know you or your mate and so would be loathe to give any extensive advice on your particular situation.
As for the respective emotional natures of the INFJ and INTJ types, they are very different. I think that INFJs and INTJs get on well together in general, but in a cohabitation situation they are likely to have very different modes of day-to-day living. This would be especially true if the INFJ was a woman and the INTJ was a man. As I said in the article, INTJs emotional nature is much like a cat, which means that they will come to you when they want affection or attention. Also, like a cat, they tend to be rather independent and don’t require much upkeep, either emotionally or in matters of physically taking care of themselves. They tend to be rather simple and minimalist this way. To continue with the cat analogy, when a cat makes a mistake, such as missing a jump from one object to another, they pretend that shit didn’t just happen. So, an INTJ does not at all enjoy lingering on mistakes they may have made in executing some action.
It can be hard to tell an INTJ much of anything (especially if they are a man) because they tend to regard themselves as being really fucking intelligent. And to be fair, they are often really fucking intelligent. But, this intelligence can further complicate their lack on the emotional plane. INTJs are insightful, passionate, intellectual, and very competent. In short, they are formidable and they know it. They will often make no effort to cover up their condescension towards those they consider lesser in stature to them in some way. The women of this type aren’t as much like this as the men because of their inherent biology. But, the men of this type can be some of the most arrogant and insufferable son-of-a-bitches you could ever hope to meet. And impenetrable. If anyone is going to be doing some penetrating, it will be them, and not the other way around. I don’t know what the answer to this if you have some hopes of getting to their vulnerable side. The general advice I can give is not to press them too fervently, feverishly, or passionately (in the emotional sense) because it will tend to have the opposite effect to the one you wanted.
I’m not kidding when I say INTJ’s emotional nature is like a cat. If you have any experience of cats you will know that you have to outsmart a cat at their game. Try ignoring the living hell out of that cat and see what happens. Act like they don’t exist. Hey, they do it all the time. Turnabout is fair play. If you could manage to do that, then the cat comes to you and wonders what is going on with you. Then they turn on their superpowers of getting back into your good graces, you know, searching you out so surreptitiously (yet needily), coming over to you with the grace of a ballerina, weaving and brushing around your legs so expertly, purring in new ways that you never heard before and so on.
The question is do you want to play this game. You have to take your own needs into account. I think I have already documented fairly well what the INFJ type is like emotionally and in relationship, what they’re needs, emotional setup and habits are. And you have already stated some of that for yourself.
I tend to be of the opinion that relationships of the romantic/sexual variety are difficult no matter who you are with. Part of the reason for that has to do with the culture we live in (Western, American, if that applies) because that culture tends to set up unrealistic expectations of what to expect from these type of relationships, and moreover, tends not to tell you much of anything at all about these things to begin with. Myers-Briggs is very useful in this respect but it is only knowledge. It is up to each person what they will do with that knowledge. There are types that are more compatible with each other and intertype relationships that are less compatible, but potentially any of the relationships could work based on knowledge of the other person, knowledge of yourself, and what you and the other party are willing to do to make it work. That’s the bottom-line.
Thanks for your comment. It is much appreciated.
I totally understand. I’m an INFJ married to an INTJ. He often says i need to talk to my girlfriends instead of him. He is right. There’s not much emotional connection between us. He’s usually analyzing my intuitive conclusions that i make about the world and justifying them/backing them up with some statistic or study that he read about. That’s actually how we converse much of the time. Accept INTJs how they are and find other emotional people to hang with, as was stated above.
question. Plato – INTJ or INFJ? or something else?
Definitely not an INTJ. Way too much movement towards introverted thinking, which is something INTJ moves away from. If I had to make a guess, I would say Plato was an INFJ that was using a shit-ton of tertiary Ti. But, he was definitely using Fe-Ti axis over Te-Fi axis. By a lot. And of course he was using intuition over sensation. He was also extremely influenced by Socrates and Pythagoras. I can’t see him as INTP or ENTP. Yeah, probaly an INFJ overusing his tertiary function to a historically monumental extent. His relationship to Socrates probaly aided and filled-in the development of this function for him.
right, if we compare the early Socratic dialogues (which are probably much more faithfully reproducing Socrates’ ideas) with the late ones, you can see that Ni steps in much more clearly … the Platonic ‘idea’ is clearly an product of Ni, not Ti.
btw, Nietzsche writes somewhere that Plato was a noble soul, but there was something in his writings deeply alien to his own nobility, and it must have been an “infection” by Socrates 🙂 he probably meant Ti (the “dialectic” reasoning that he so much despised)
“An INFJ can do both minimalism in art on into extreme lushness and color. They can blaze off every color of the feeling spectrum. INTJs cannot usually do this. And quite the contrary, one usually has a monochromatic feeling when listening to INTJ art as if there was a good skeleton in place but devoid of flesh and blood and all that stuff that goes on top of a skeleton like blood and lymph”
Definitely sense that monochromatic element in Kate Bush’s art. I mean she’s a freakin genius and her music generally was deeply affecting, but you often get the sense that her range was limited, as in she was constricted by her idea rather than using the idea as a base to blast off from. Like in “Running Up that Hill”, a fave of mine, you can still feel the staidness, the rigidity of the drum track, and that element pervades an otherwise outstanding masterwork. A lot of her records have this general feeling of being expressed in greyscale, or the pastel-ish range of a particular color.
I think she masters her craft in “The Sensual World”, which feels less constricted and more organic. It’s almost like she’s getting in touch with her inferior Se for the first time and is just giddy about it. “Mmmmmmmmm yes”, indeed. Inferior Se in INTJs has a Virgo-like quality, right? Is that what’s being expressed in that record, this sort of easy excellence with everyday activities? She seems to embody Virgo in subsequent records as well.
But Bush’s initial monochromatic feel is best contrasted with Bjork’s explosive, geeky romanticism. Her music, at its best, is bombastic and expansive, with a mischievous sense of extreme weirdness. She is not limited by the idea, but rather finds a way to arrange a multiplicity of ideas with groundbreaking, breathtaking effect. She’s INFP, though, so no Fe there, but I feel like Fi + Ne can sometimes mimic Fe in its ability to span the full emotional spectrum and touch a broad audience, if not appeal to popular taste. Also, how does Ni id look like in INFPs? Leo Moon? Dude, I think I get it. My INFP friend is always trying to make himself look super cool and regal, but in a low-key way and usually around close friends. He’s extremely comfortable and confident in his primary relationships (opposite of the INFJ). Is that Leo Moon?
To me Kate Bush is like someone who took “lushness”, deconstructed it and then reconstructed it in a very strange way. And yes, she is a genius.
Yes, her album, The Sensual World, is her exploration of INTJ inferior function, which would correlate to object-oriented Virgo. Correct.
As for Bjork, she is not an INFP in my book, so, I can’t agree with you there. To me, she is an enneatype 8 ENFJ type. Spunky, menacing, and very daring in her emotionalism and phrasing – the way she uses her voice. INFPs never have this level of punch to them.
However, Bjork is a triple Scorpio (Sun, Moon, and Ascendant), which may account for her Fi impression. Scorpio is the foundation sign of Fi. But, she is definitely not an Fi dominant type. Her Ne is coming from her ENTP id. All ENFJs are ENTPs at the core. Which is why many of them have an extremely good sense of humor and irony, while, at the same time, being able to project an image of danger and the unknown (Ni auxiliary). They often move between humor and danger quite facilely. Whereas, ENTPs do not come off as dangerous at all. Except in a cartoon sense. No Se.
Hmmm… Bjork as an ENFJ or an 8 is hard to swallow. Have you seen her interviews?
I’d say she’s a 5w4 INFP. Why?
For one thing, in high profile situations, Bjork is rather awkward. Like, just-hit-puberty-please-don’t-look-at-me awkward. Take the 2000 Academy Awards for example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yib0y46748c
She’s fidgety, nervous, not fully present, and responds to the interviewer’s questions with a cutesy, fluffy reply not atypical of an INFP. (sidenote: as a prank, she “laid little eggs” here and there around the red carpet as she walked through. A security officer always promptly approached her,”Maam, you dropped this”. This sort of mischevious, creative scoffing at stuffy Fe standards is classic INFP behavior.) She has these minimal, cutesy replies for everything (“I am very grateful grapefruit” she says, in response to receiving the prestigious Polar Music Prize.) which seems to scream Fi. ENFJs usually know instinctively how to handle themselves in these “high-society” events with aristocratic grace. And if they do choose to be a rebel, it is usually in a soapbox reproach about the “inauthenticity” of it all or some far bolder, more bombastic stunt. 8s always have a stronger, more dominating presense. They certainly don’t give off absent-minded fairy vibes.
In interviews about her childhood she speaks of how she was entirely ambivalent about other people. She had to tell herself “you’re a coward if you don’t go out there and try to connect with people”. This is the 5s approach to social connections. It’s a deep fear that must be overcome. Everything outside themselves is a puzzle to be solved, a challenge to win. When healthy, they boldly rise to the challenge like 8s, but with a far quieter determination. The bombast comes in the brilliance of their discoveries. Also ENFJs will never view people this way, with ambivalence. Even if they are shy as youths they make every effort to fit in or garner esteem in one way or another. She describes herself as that one “know-it-all” kid who questioned the teacher and yearned to learn beyond the level of her class. To know the subject more deeply. 5s often come off this way as youths. And inferior Te would only inflame such ambitions.
Further, while you may hear Fe in her strong, varied emotional expression, I see it as a 5’s fearless fascination with her voice and the her bold exploration of what it can do. It is expression of course, which I’d say is fueled by her 4 wing, but even more so it’s experimentation. She doesn’t sound like anything or anyone else. ENFJ’s will usually become distinctive after first having mastered an established style… Not so with Bjork. There’s an effortless originality, an innocent curiousity, even, that only 5s are capable of. This curiousity is reflected in her lyrics, “I’m going hunting for mystery…. Cover me.” Her whimsical Fi-Ne, too, “I’ll heal you
With a razor blade
I’ll cut a slit open
And the luminous beam
It feeds you
honey !” wtf
Her music also reflects the byzantine nature of her 5 mind. Her least acclaimed albums have been so impenetrably avante-garde and subjective…. Just, no 8 is really capable of her complexity and intricacy of thought… Their intellect is gutsy and practical, maybe idealistic but always broadly projected. I get the sense that the 8 is not what she is, but is something she reaches for and achieves at her best (ie the aggressive Homogenic, but even here, she had to fight “not with weapons, but with love” what a hippy) as 5s move to 8 when integrating.
Anyway this is getting long and by now I must sound like a freakin fanboy, but what can I say? This is how I perceive her. Her music resonates so deeply because she expresses all the things I feel deep inside. She’s expressing Scorpios insight and intensity… This sense of constant transformation, death and rebirth. The ultimate artist.
I’d say St . Vincent is quite interesting, too. I’ve seen her typed as INFJ across the web. She’s the only artist I’ve come across that seems to fit the bill. Your thoughts?
Yeah, I still think Bjork is an ENFJ at type 8 (with 9 wing). Actually her astrology is very interesting. Like I said before, she is a triple Scorpio (pretty rare). And Neptune is also in Scorpio along with her Sun, Moon, and Ascending sign. So, Neptune is in the first house of her chart and associated with her Sun and Moon as well by being in the same sign. So, in net effect this is why she appears to be giving off “absent-minded fairy vibes”, to use your own words, and just being generally torn out of time and space, so to speak. Go read an interpretation of Neptune in first house on the internet. I think that is what you are seeing big-time from Bjork. But, it however doesn’t change my mind about her Myers-Briggs type or enneagram placements. At bottom, I see Bjork as a rather ferocious and uncompromising woman. Her manner in interviews is somewhat of a …I don’t want to say it is a put-on, but, I think it is somewhat affected and rather used by her as a way to maintain control over and distance from her interlocuters. I think things like laying the eggs out on the carpet is a whimsical tactic to draw attention to herself and stand out as unique and A TOTAL ARTIST THAT CANNOT BE CONTROLLED. Bjork has pretty much always done things her own way. And been quite successful at it. Why are these ENFJ type traits and not INFP ones? Because, in my opinion, INFPs are much more genuine and open and truly guileless. I don’t see that in Bjork at bottom. I do see a sort of calculation in her. Not that this lessens her genius or anything. It is actually quite common for geniuses to have this trait. It helps them cut through and make an impact. And Bjork has brought through a very uncompromising vision. This is often a trait of type 8 ENFJs. ENTJs too. But, ENFJs do it more with an iron fist in a velvet glove. I know, hard to believe that little, cute, and geeky Bjork could be anything approaching a Stanley Kubrick, but, I see this side to her. I’m quite sure you wouldn’t want to get on the bad side of her. She’s got a monster in her. “And if you complain once more, you’re going to meet an army of me.” O yeah.
As for St. Vincent, I would agree with your assessment of her as an INFJ. However, when you say she is the only artist that seems to fit the bill, are you saying that you can’t think of any other artist that would be an INFJ? If that is the case, I can name you off a plethora of examples of INFJ artists. They are the artist type. So, they dominate the artistic world. Some of the greatest artists that have ever lived have been either INFJs or ENFJs. Also INTJs. Particularly those three types.
It is my belief that an artist who qualifies as a genius is usually able to transcend the limits of their type… I think INFPs can be quite clever given sufficient intellect. But I also see where you are coming from. I did not mean to indicate that I actually believe Bjork is a wooly-minded fairy; she’s clearly a determined and astute visionary and bussinesswoman. But she does often project that vibe, this very childlike archtype that INPs often embody. Perhaps this is the Ne-id. I had an ENFJ boss who often projected this child-vibe but it was a deliberate farce for manipulation and entertainment, and i do see that sense of pretention in Bjork, whereas with INPs it’s less conscious. And I actually I see Bjork in the same book as Kubrick. Have you seen her video for “Pagan Poetry”? It’s an uncompromising, penetrating clip that explores deep sexual desire and devotion. Very dark, very bold, reminiscent of that one scene in “Eyes Wide Shut”. No Bjork is not the fairy she appears to be… Perhaps I’ll have to shift my paradigm with regard to ENFJs, and 8s. At best, 8s are both willful AND effective, so these fairy-vibes are perhaps a way of getting her vision across in the most appealing packaging. Thank you very much for your very thorough response. I gleaned a lot from it.
With regard to INFJ artists, I’m not saying there aren’t many, just that I haven’t come across them. I love music but I’m not closely familiar with a lot of classic, or obscure, artists from the 60s and 70s, as you listed in the ENFP article. I remember finding it difficult to see Jim Morrison as an INFJ, but I only know of him from a distance so I cant say. My purview is currently limited to more modern artists, not much past the 80s. If you’d like to share some more INFJ artists and some common thread between them, please do.
St. Vincent is very much an INTJ, not an INFJ. She is so detached in a way only INTJs can be. If you watch her videos she also speaks about her approach to creating a song being very methodical. Her most recent album is self-titled and she says that it is so because it is the best representation of her and she sees to have a good conscious grasp of this Fi that is not id Fi, but tertiary Fi. Also, in general I would describe her music as fairly colorless. If we compare her music to that of the two most prominent INFJ musicians of today: Sufjan Stevens and Joanna Newsom it becomes clear that the latter two are much more capable at creating lush and varied productions. These two musicians are also perfect examples of how an INFJ goes through using Fi, especially Stevens on his album the Age of Adz, while the resolution to this can be felt in the Fe-heavy album Carrie & Lowell. St. Vincent’s songs pick apart the world in a non-dreadful way but much more so with the spirit of a Ti indifference. Compare her song “Digital Witness” to Stevens’s song “All For Myself,” which is a perfect example of the id Fi of an INFJ and how this can interplay with Ni and Se.
Yeah, you might be right about St. Vincent being an INTJ. Not too familiar with her. Watched a couple of interviews on Youtube and that was the extent to that. But, yeah, I could definitely see INTJ from watching her in interviews.
Also, Alejandro, I don’t know if you are aware of it, but, you were the first one to guess the right answer (my answer) on the Russell Brand type challenge. And maybe the only one that voiced the ISFP type before I revealed the answer.
So, congratufuckinglations!
“St. Vincent is very much an INTJ, not an INFJ”.
I am quite certain she’s an INFJ..
I’ve spent many an hour pondering over the question of her type.. The perception axis is quite clear.. The Ni dominance is evident in all her lyrics and interviews.. She’s also in rapture of Se in her stage performances.. It doesn’t come naturally to her and she is obviously in awe of it but has found a way to enjoy it in doses.. I think this is her method of letting loose and self-healing.. She used to suffer from anxiety and panic attacks once upon a time and probably still finds it hard to deal with that shit, but she’s found her outlet and learnt how to use it.. The judgement axis, on the other hand, I think is Fe-Ti over Te-Fi..
“She is so detached in a way only INTJs can be.”
I agree to some extent.. But i think this has more to do with her having a pretty strong pull towards and hold over her tertiary Ti.. And the fact that she has learnt to use her Fe the way Blake advises INFJs to use it.. She uses her Fe to express her Fi through an art form rather than through a person, by getting into nurse-patient relationships with broken people that many INFJs enjoy getting into.. This probably makes her Fi look not-so-ugly.. Her Fe is not too in your face and is instead expressed as 3rd person social critique, which is still of an Fe-Ti nature rather than a Te-Fi nature.. Songs like Black Rainbow, Paris is Burning, Cruel, The Apocalypse Song, Prince Johnny, Huey Newton, Cheerleader, Digital Witness.. They’re all Fe-Ti “observations”.. I think Te-Fi would be more “instructive”.. Telling others what to do in such a situation as this world is in right now.. It’s a lil more solution oriented that way.. Even if it doesn’t instruct directly, it is more preachy in a sense (Lennon or Nietzsche anyone?).. Fe fuelled by Ni-Fi-Ti is kinda more into exposing stuff because it knows that there’s no ONE IDEAL SOLUTION to this unavoidable human mess caused by the interference of billions of independent thought waves generated by billions of independent motivating factors.. A bit like how Dostoyevsky was into exposing human nature for what it was.. She’s not as fucked up as him with her Fi id though, like you said, more detached, but not in the sense that she can do something constructive about it, but in the sense that she’s choosing not to be affected by it.. That’s more Ti than Te.. And tertiary Ti because Dom Ti or Aux Ti would care about proving a logical point.. Tertiary Ti is more about appearing to be logical and leaving it at that..
“If you watch her videos she also speaks about her approach to creating a song being very methodical.”
Yes, this was partly what confused me.. Could she be an INTJ? But she also said she likes setting boundaries and goals because once they are defined she can have fun and go crazy with her imagination within the limits she has set for herself.. This i think is again an INFJ employing Te minimums, as Blake advises.. And Fe likes to do that too.. It doesn’t like having a single defined process, cause that is suffocating and threatens to set one into Ni-Ti lockdown, but it is greatly boosted by knowing what its meant to achieve eventually..
She is also not as detached as she appears to be.. She has quite an addiction to social media and she actually tried a loneliness experiment in Seattle with a total technology detox to get rid of distractions while writing her 3rd album.. This interview more than anything else convinced me that she’s an INFJ..
“Her most recent album is self-titled and she says that it is so because it is the best representation of her and she sees to have a good conscious grasp of this Fi that is not id Fi, but tertiary Fi.”
Her fourth album is the “first one” where she appears to have such a strong sense of self.. It is the best-representation of herself because she seems to have started to make peace with/be comfortable with her Fi.. If you listen to all her albums in a sequence you can clearly see her grow from a relatively green and confused INFJ to one who is learning to control her identity.. Her second album was called Actor because she felt like an actor.. Pretending to be someone else on stage.. Putting on various faces for the entertainment of others while she was performing.. Also, that album was imagined as a soundtrack to her favourite Disney movies growing up.. And now with St. Vincent you see her step into her own shoes.. She is revealing herself.. And boy what a majestic creature, sitting there on that throne! That is the embodiment of the INFJ fascination with ruling over others by embracing the self.. And the inspiration for these tracks is completely her own.. She finally feels “ownership”.. Her journey is an INFJ journey..
“Also, in general I would describe her music as fairly colorless.”
Oh My! Her music is anything but colourless.. She might not be overly wordy.. But that doesn’t mean it lacks colour or lushness.. Her musical arrangements are like afternoons on acid in a tropical forest with the sun gleaming through the canopy and then you realise that wasn’t just light but shards of glass that begin to reflect a deeper reality.. Each album has a unique emotional texture in its sound which is a combination of the lyrical and vocal style and the background music.. Her music is getting progressively provocative and edgy.. And yet she is trying to make her music more accessible to the mainstream by making it more electronic and adding dance moves to her videos and performances.. That’s an Fe move more than a Te move in my opinion..
“St. Vincent’s songs pick apart the world in a non-dreadful way but much more so with the spirit of a Ti indifference. Compare her song “Digital Witness” to Stevens’s song “All For Myself,” which is a perfect example of the id Fi of an INFJ and how this can interplay with Ni and Se.”
She does have a Ti spirit but that’s only in the more recent songs.. There’s no denying the Fi id in most of her stuff though.. Sample these lyrics..
x—————————-x
In no hurry I’ll sing my tune
All my skies the hue of a ruddy bruise
In my finest threads couture I’ll call up my favorite muse
for a drink – half full – or two
Have I abused you, dear? You have had it to here
You say, “Love is just a bloodmatch to see who
endures lash after lash with panache”
In the spring I’ll dust off my lute, stuff my suitcase full of blues
and stir the dust underneath the thrust of my clicking heels
C’est la vie
What me worry? I never do
Life is one charming ruse for us lucky few
Have I fooled you, dear?
The time is coming near when I’ll give you my hand and I’ll say,
“It’s been grand, but… I’m out of here
I’m out of here”
x—————————-x
If that’s not acknowledging the Scorpio moon Fi tugging the tides of desire then what is?
Then there’s this.. The stance of the protagonist here is diametrically opposite to that of the previous one..
x—————————-x
I’m crawling through landmines
Just to feel where you’ve been
There’s gauze over my eyes
But you’re leaving this trail
I’m crawling through landmines
I know cause I planted them
Under cover of night I put my heart in the ground
x—————————-x
And who says :
x—————————-x
Flowerchild, you’re still wild
Under a harvest moon can we eat of all the fruits of our youth?
Tell the truth now
Your heart is a strange little orange to peel
x—————————-x
Well that could be just Ni too.. Hmm.. Who sings a song about a dominant submissive relationship where the dom is the one who needs healing (but then aren’t they the ones who are healing?)?
x—————————-x
Who here
Hear your word
Ring, ring phone
Send you home
Find my heels
Heal my hurt
White white shirt
Back to work
x—————————-x
Even the simple line in Digital Witness “I want all of your mind”.. It sounds healthy only in the context of the song.. But where did it come from?
Yes, she looks and talks like an INTJ.. But that could also be because she has a Libra Sun.. So maybe she’s an INFJ with a Te demeanour..
To me she is an INFJ.. One who has learnt how to take care of herself.. One who is getting rather healthy and finding a fine balance of Ni-Fi-Ti through Fe and Se within the boundaries set by her Te minimums.. Maybe I could take a leaf out of her book..
@blake Thanks. With respect to Russell, as an Ni dom I noticed I suppose what I would call the substance of what he seemed to be looking for immediately, just not the method or the way he was harping on it.
As for St. Vincent since the posting of your article and seeing Piggy’s comments I’ve dug around some more interviews in an attempt to not go solely off the music’s production and some interviews I have seen. I will be commenting on that post soon…
Cool, can’t wait!
Blake,
I tip my hat to you, sir, for your observations! Damn, you’re good.
Between my oldest and closest friend we’re a combination of INFJ/INTJ, Leo-Virgo cusp signs, and Libra-Cancer Moon signs. I wonder if the mixture of these energies, tendencies, and functions intrigues you as much as it has me. Because of this, as you can imagine, I loved your comparisons to fire and the Virgo. It hit home.
Your personal opinions have perked up my ears and ruffled my feathers in all the right ways. General encouragement and so forth from me.
-Brooke B.
Glad you’re getting all ruffled up. But, where did I compare fire and Virgo…if that is indeed what you are saying?
There was a comparison made of an INFJ’s emotions to getting “burned” in your article and then in a different comment there was a correlation made to the inferior function of INTJs and Virgo. Not that you were comparing Virgo and fire, sorry for the confusion.
O, I see. Yes, I did say those things. You may continue with the hat tipping. And I do quite like being called “Sir”. So carry on with that too.
I find myself really liking INTJ’s, irl and online. And they don’t seem to wear me out, not quickly anyway. I’m guessing it is because they don’t require my Fe in the same doses others do.
I like to listen to them for the sake of learning, learning about stuff I don’t know, but also learning them. I find I forget a lot of what people tell me, but impressions stick and an INTJ’s ‘residue’ is enjoyable to contemplate.
I find myself easily forgiving of their bluntness, their egos, gotta get a kick out of a cat’s ego. I inwardly cringe a bit as they chew obliviously on their boot leather, but they are often curious characters and I have to laugh.
I have many cats, by the way. Coincidence? I think not.
I definitely see a need in cats and INTJ’s though, for people. Let’s say most cats. I find they want to express themselves. They crave an exchange of ideas and want to share their passions, here and there, but not everywhere.
I have a little girl cat that so clearly wants me when she does and will evade me when she doesn’t. But she comes to me, and remains very close until I pick her up and love on her, only to be suddenly sure she wants back down. And she is lovely, tempting. Likewise I often find INTJ’s to be physically alluring in their intensity and dark/coolish looks. And I mean that both physically and ethereally, but not sure I could explain. I do find the disdain vanishes whey they like you, or not vanishes, but isn’t directed at you.
Friends is the relationship I want and value with them though. I’m not terribly tempted in terms of having them as a lover. I think their truths and indifferences would be too much and not enough in many cases. Not saying not possible, just not likely for me.
Just lets talk… That is to say, a partnership of the mind is fantastic.
Hello. Your posts are very well done. Can I ask you more on Ni?
Especially without bringing up the psychic-like ability to see the future and be always right, because let’s be realistic, being a subjective perceiving function it can be wrong. Or it can be stunted by one’s personal life experience, insecurity or other unhealthy situation.
Like, can you explain it without saying something like “it breaks down objects and concepts and tries to find their position in the noumenal realm. Ni abstracts objects, devalues them, and steers into the world of ideas”?
And also, are all high Ni users able to “predict the future” and they never make bad choices like the majority of mbti related blogs imply, both in people matters like infjs or in carreer and “systems” like intjs? what does systems mean? Sorry I don’t understand philosophy and English is not my native language, I’m a high school student. I have been forced by my family to go to a technical professional school even if I wanted to study humanities, I read a lot but I don’t have the culture I’d like to, so sorry if my questions seem stupid or not abstract enough for someone who tested INTJ anyway (the scandal! xD)
thank you very much!
Ni can neither be right nor wrong in the dualistic thinking sense. It does not enter the sphere of error. All prospect of error lies in the thinking functions. Ni is exempt from this. It is neither right nor wrong, it just is.
Which brings me to your question of what Ni is. Ni, like all, perceiving functions (by my lights), deals with the concept of entities. Either something is or it isn’t. That is about as far as the perceiving functions can go. All other things we want to say about this, that, or the other thing enter the spheres of the judging functions.
Similar to how our five senses register the presence of an object in the phenomenal realm, Ni does the same thing in the noumenal realm (sorry, I think there is some truth in that).
So, Ni is simply dealing with the existence of things or subjects in a realm that is directly opposed to this realm we have physical existence as entities in.
Another way to define Ni is to say that is the “center-referenced” function, particularly the center of a circle, which can’t exist due to the formula of Pi yielding an irrational non-terminating number.
Infinitesimals in calculus. Tiny infinities. Entering heaven through the eye of a needle. That type of thing.
A great way to find out what Ni is experientially is to drop some acid. Then you will really know what it is. You know how acid trips are hard to describe unless you have been on one. Similar thing with Ni. The loss of all reference points. Nothing is real. Except consciousness.
Note that I am not advocating the use of LSD and in fact would discourage against it. Unless one has an extremely strong grounding in reality, I would be very cautious about using such a powerful perception-altering drug. It can cause people to go on a trip which they cannot come back from.
You know all that music Pink Floyd made. That’s Ni. Listen to Dark Side of The Moon. It’s the loss of reality. An exploration in consciousness. And it can go on forever. Take you far away from here.
Nuclear power. Atomic power. The power that lies in the nucleus (center) of an atom. Very potent and mysterious in nature.
So, Ni is some of those things.
I noticed a strange phenomenon over the years, as an INFJ, the type who’s caused me the most problems, the deepest problems have all been INTJ’s. One would think it would be sensors, but no. INTJ’s seem to just “not get” me and then it moves over into hatred. The only conclusions I’ve been able to arrive at is that we’re alike enough that the differences become glaring and highly annoying.
The most recent INTJ I sparred with was a boss. She was adept extremely adept at business and process, but awful with personal connections. Despite her success on the job, she was disliked by colleagues. On the other hand, I saw clearly that (with her as a boss) I wouldn’t be moving up the ladder. She HATED my work style and resented that I was loved by those that worked with me. Upon leaving the job due to her vehemence against me, the one piece of glee I took was knowing that she’ll never have a mate, a child or deep friendships. Even dogs steered clear of her. She has her job. That’s it.
I disagree with your assertion that “a hell of every negative emotion under the sun is awaiting those who dare to love the INFJ.” Perhaps this is true for some, but all INFJ’s owe it to themselves and others to mature and work toward psychological health which will minimize this. It can be done!
“Perhaps this is true for some, but all INFJ’s owe it to themselves and others to mature and work toward psychological health which will minimize this. It can be done!”
Completely agree. I think we are the most obsessed type with self development and understanding that it might work. This blog is a great help and insight into our darker sides.
I love your article so much!! It is purely beautiful and inspiring.
I am a INFJ and my identical twin sister is a typical INTJ. I can relate so much to what you mentioned in the article and it just helped me discover, understand and accept myself in a meaningful way. I am good at working with arts and colours, and learning to take my imagination seriously. My twin sister is more of an logical person while she can come up with many creative ideas too which makes us work so well together because we are so matching yet so opposite that it allows us to strengthen our talents and ability but compensate our weaknesses to achieve a better outcomes in whatever we do in life. love it love it love it!
Thank you for writing such an amazing article!
Great site! Very refreshing.
I have some questions, which I’m hoping you can share your thoughts on..
I’ve thought of myself as an INFJ, but I relate to some of the things you mention about INTJ. I don’t know if it is because of not using Auxiliary (which is pretty true, irrespective of what type I am), or because of astrological/gender-related cultural influences (I am woman with Scorpion Sun, Cancer Moon, Cancer Rising, which along with infj/intj seems like a screwed up combination of things, doesn’t it :P).
let me elaborate a bit on some points.
I used to be very evasive, both with respect to questions about me… or my opinion on something. I am not that evasive on being questioned now. I am quite acidic in my responses, and unfortunately I see that it puts people off. so sometimes i prefer not talking at all.
I am also all for bitter truth. But if I see that the truth has hurt someone, I feel guilty about it and try to balance it and wonder if I should have presented it more tactfully. I still do think facing the truth about the essence of something is important and can’t help but convey that…. and usually prefer people to be bitterly honest with me too. However, i recently had a minor moment where I thought truth without the ability to help it is perhaps pointless.
regarding work methods, while I often have a broad structure, make sections and then don’t necessarily stick to it… This relates also to your art/science point… i studied Engineering and then MBA and worked in technology for some years before quitting and studying music full time (music/writing/theatre is what I am into now… or trying to be!).. I liked science and hence engineering (and there is an unwritten rule in my culture/country that if you are good at academics you have to study engineering or medicine. I detested biology, so engineering it was). Initially it overwhelmed me, but overall I was good at it.. i liked studying it anyway (electronics is what i studied). I worked in technology, very unrelated to what i studied- I found the work very unintelligent and the office politics unbearable… studying mba was dull, anyway I did that for other reasons ( i wanted to get away from home…away from parents, and escape a breakup). Anyway eventually i found my way to music,which I enjoy. While i do like to analyse things and approach it intellectually… it often blocks me from acting and I remain in a perpetual state of analysis. Which does frustrate me. Thats how I came across your articles on the importance of auxiliary, and “playing”, for an INFJ.
Inner nature….I think I am a very emotional person, sometimes overwhelmingly so. At least, what I mean is I am very much capable of experiencing emotions. I am reactive…I sting on perceived threat, also sting myself… I would love for every situation to be ‘win-win’ and strive for it, if not , it’s going to be ‘lose-lose’. although when there is no perceived threat, I can be quite detached. I wonder if my scorpion-nature comes from Scorpio sun. People (in general), perceive me as “aggressive/reactive, strong, unemotional and sometimes, too sensitive”.
I also have a question- do not the “bitter truth” and “scorpion sting” overlap? I mean, an INTJ’s bitter truth at all cost is bound to sting others, as would an INFJ’s sting. Is the difference only in the intent of it?
hmmm, also, I have a question which perhaps is not really related to this article. Do you think grief in early teenage years can screw up the development of functions and perhaps make it harder to “type” people?
This was a rather self-indulgent and rambling post! Thank you!!
Well, the first thing that jumps to mind is that the primary difference between INFJ and INTJ is one of feeling vs. thinking in terms of functions.
Now, you have the astrological signs of feeling (water signs) in the three major placements of your astrological chart (Sun, Moon, and Rising Sign) and two of those placements (Moon, Rising) are in the sign of Cancer. Cancer is the fundamental sign of Fe. INTJ is weakest in Fe, particularly of the Cancerian variety (other Fe sign is latter half of Pisces). INFJ is strong and harmonious in Fe (more of the Piscean variety, but some Cancer too)
So, my thoughts are that you are a particularly feeling-oriented INTJ. I would say there is no way in hell a Cancer rising, Cancer Moon INFJ would have gone anywhere close to engineering. Biology perhaps, because of the liquid ramifications of wetware.
INTJs have a natural gift with cold and dry environs such as one sees in all realms of science, especially hard science. INFJs, no. They might make it through, but, by the skin of their teeth, so to speak. It would be very challenging for an INFJ to do what you have done educationally and career-wise (engineering, technology, MBA) in the tone that you describe it, which, is kind of nonchalantly.
The “bitter truth” “scorpion sting” overlap is because INFJs has an implied Scorpio Moon position and INTJs have a implied Mercury in Scorpio position. So, yes, the intent and cause of each is somewhat different. INTJs express their thoughts with a similar vehemence and sting that INFJs express their emotions with. Or something akin to that. The difference between Moon and Mercury is simplistically the difference between emotions and thoughts respectively.
INTJs don’t have to embody the emotional thrust and power behind their often eviscerating manner of communicating (which is also coming from Te aux.) With INFJs, that is not the case. It is a felt thing and they cannot remove themselves and make their poison as dry and detached as INTJ. INTJs can have an acid wit that just melts people and they just walk away unaffected.
“They treat it rather impersonally though, more as an intellectual exercise or a mental stimulation. INTJs can actually be deeply in touch with their pain but their pain is more related to archetypal abstractions of their emotional encounters rather than as a real felt personal feeling.”
This is what I meant about being “fakey”. Things come out of my mouth and when I later reflect, I think “Is that right? Was I being honest?” Sometimes I have a feeling of “not doing it right” – being human. And, every time I try, it feels weird, so I put on a mask or stay “inside”. This quote of yours solidifies for me that I am indeed an INTJ.
Thanks man.
I think the paint/art analogy is rather flawed.
As an INTJ who was initially trained as a visual arts major, I assure you we can paint in color. If someone were painting in greyscale, I’d be more likely to point out that there are plenty of other colors in the box, and that they should be utilitzed as well.
Perhaps the real difference, and in my experience is that we’re more a Gainsborough or Seurat, to an INFJ-esque Picasso or Gauguin.
While Magritte’s “The Son of Man” painting is a form of abstract, I can rationally appreciate the conciseness of realism in technique, and delve into it emotionally/philosophically, what does image itself represent? While an INFJ might (maybe not) appreciate a Jackson Pollock paint scribbles painting, they will be able to interpret those slashes of paint each color and path of the paint as something emotionally connectable.
I’m not saying an INTJ can’t paint in color. I’m saying that if I were to make a comparison between INFJ and INTJ relatively, INTJs are more grey-scale. Relatively. It’s just a stupid analogy. Don’t take it that seriously. It’s just trying to give a flavor of the difference. Don’t hold me rigidly to it.
I think Georgia O’Keefe might have been an INTJ painter. She uses very vibrant color in her paintings. But, still, there is something very abstract and distilled about it.
It ain’t like Basquiat for example. There is something very strange and unnatural in her use of color. Or even her concept of lushness. Kate Bush has a similar sensibility of strange lushness in her music. Lushness deconstructed and reconstructed again. Something like that.
I have avoided this article (until now) for I’m sure many reasons that I don’t care to admit to. But the rainbow shit summed it up with beautiful fucking accuracy if you ask me.
The above comment about INTJs being able to “paint in color” missed the point entirely, in my humble opinion. In fact, it was a very INTJ response & interpretation. Very fucking grey scale. From a perspective of shades of black and white….only.
I would only add that INFJs seem to have way fucking more than seven colors in their goddamned rainbows.
Fucking assholes 🙂
Once again you have hit the nail on the head, really appreciate and enjoyed and laughed out loud at this particular article as I am an infj lady with a intj best friend of 10 years. We hit it right off the bat and there was this ‘kindred spirit/soul mate/feeling understood like no other could do from the start. I recall now a few instances in which key differences between us and our types were pointed out even before we knew about MBTI at all, and awesomely enough you pointed precisely at these points.
There was this one time years ago; she lived with me at that time for a few weeks because we both worked at the same place for a summer vacation job and naturally we often had those rabbit hole like Ni-fueled conversations. I was in a ‘bubbly happy go lucky’ seeming teenager period at that time at that time but with her I felt I could show some depth without persecution,’ and as I told her something, some kind of ‘vision’ about a subject we were talking about she just gasped and exclaimed something along the lines of; “you always seem to get right down to the essence/truth of things” and I was kid astonished since I just said something without even knowing how I got there.
Another time we were having a discussion on how to break a rather uncomfortable truth to a mutual friend and I suggested an approach that would be in essence sugar candying it all. And she said:”I’d rather just tell it the way it is, I can’t even do it differently. You have a way with words and tend to ‘verbloem’ (put flowers over) over things”.
I find that really admirable about her while she finds my more ‘artful/creative way of dealing with words and admirable. She probably gave me one of the greatest compliments ever when she told me if she ever wanted to write a book she’d want to write the way I do, whereas I feel her less woolly, more systematic and consistent hard approach can be a breath of fresh air to read.
And the cat and scorpion metaphor, ha!!! Yes, yes, yes.
Sometimes I almost feel guilty over coming off as this very kind and sweet and understanding ‘sensitive empath’ person as compared to NT types especially intj’s, Fe almost feels like a glamor of free love and understanding at times, making the sting and intensity beneath seem palatable and ‘doable’ for others. While intj’s also harbor all these levels of intensities and feels, but since they are cute kitty cats and human beings are usually not trained in discerning the radically different body language and communication forms of cats, shit just ends up lost in translation!!
MBTI really made me realize how my intj best friend is essentially behind that colder rational exterior a kitty cat with all these intensities which baffles even herself, naturally making it hard to externalize. So different from infj’s who crave emotional shoulder claps and validation, live for grand expressions of mutual connection and appreciation. When it comes down to it, with enough mutual awareness and appreciation I truly believe intj-infj makes an intensely awesome friendship, definitely agree with you that the level of understanding to be found is hard to match.
Blake,
This is the first time I’ve read this article, but WOW! I have always felt an affinity for INTJ types and now I see them like a twin I never had. I envy my twin. I want an ice palace and the one and I am capable of loneliness and embrace it, but YES, to the Scorpion metaphor. I have stung and know I am capable of stinging and every time I do I will sting myself 3 times over because….. Well, you get it. Of this I’m sure. The answer is beyond guilt and shame it is more. This line meant the word to me: “NTJs generally don’t like slobbering dogs, slobbering babies, and just anything that is very dependent and somewhat childish and helpless, especially if these creatures are dependent on them. INFJs really don’t like these things either but they are generally willing to display much more tolerance towards them.” I have never loved babies and feel like a defective woman for this. Yes, I do tolerate them and coo appropriately at the mothers who present them and meet their vulnerable needs when I had to, but I would try hard to avoid them. I never understood the other part of the female population who adored babies genuinely. That sounds awful when you are a woman. I LOVE dogs, but purposely choose the non-slobbering ones. I know an INTJ woman who can’t stand children or babies, except her own. She actually despises them I think. I just want to avoid them and don’t really like them. I do find them kind of awful and icky, but can’t help but empathize with their needs. I just don’t want to be around those needs and if someone else loves those… Well, I’m more than glad to give up my turn. 😉 I know I’m speaking literally and you were illustrating a point. This point is so spot on it is both literal and figurative.
I am not sure if you are a cat or a scorpion, but you are brilliant and enlightening and engaging by any standard. Despite the praise, take that as just a purr or the wag of tail without the icky wet slobber. I also promise not to sting unless you sting me first! 😉
Hmmm. I think I understand why I am afraid of a close infj relative. I don’t let my heart be open to her. It is sometimes too hot for my taste. Hot and cold.
I don’t know your relative, but for me it is a fekking relief when I can see that people don’t need me to turn my Fe way up. INTJ for the win, thank you for letting me loose. I can be direct and honest and not feel I have to walk on eggshells.
I don’t go looking to crack people open. They open themselves and I offer what I can. If I feel someone wants to talk, I will stop what I am doing, take the time and listen, but I have enough on my plate without trying to drag hearts to the fore.
INFJ’s want to be liked. If you are reluctant to be friendly with her because you think she wants something from you, I’d say you may be misunderstanding, hard to say, of course everyone is different. She may just be trying to establish an easiness with you though, a friendliness. I wouldn’t want someone hanging off me and she probably doesn’t want that either. You don’t have to spill anything. Smiling goes a really long way all by itself. If you smile at an INFJ, they can go on their way and about their day. If you refuse to, they wind up in a loop of what mistake did I make to deserve your disdain? Relational tension is hellish.
I do relate to hot and cold, but for me I’d say I am warm or cool far more than I am hot or cold.
In fact I’ve seen the’ what do you want from me’ in an INFP’s eyes and it becomes clear one’s Fe is not appreciated, which means one is not appreciated and eventually the answer may be ‘absolutely nothing’. And this is where warm goes cool, or even cold.
Sadly, just a difference in functional placement can lead to misunderstandings between people who are often both on the same page in many other respects.
Own your part in that misunderstanding.
Fe can feel like being dragged around by a collar on one’s neck and told to lick everyone you meet, enthusiastically, especially if they kick at you.
Can you tell I’m a little ragged today?
Hmm. I didn’t feel like your reply was too relevant to my referenced situation.
Especially this:
In fact I’ve seen the’ what do you want from me’ in an INFP’s eyes and it becomes clear one’s Fe is not appreciated, which means one is not appreciated and eventually the answer may be ‘absolutely nothing’. And this is where warm goes cool, or even cold.
The not smiling was more relevant. But if I’m not smiling it’s almost never personal. It’s literally, because I am too stressed to smile. I know this about myself. I remember every morning, my mum asking me not to sulk. And I never felt like I was sulking and would feel really distressed. I hate this part of me.
Anyhow the stress in the referenced situation has more to do with how we spend 2-3 weeks at their place, but go out only 3 times or so. There is an inability in this family to put themselves in our places as visitors who travelled from far. Complete blindness to how guests could feel trapped. I feel insane after about one week there:(
Anyhow, this cabin fever thing is of the past visits mostly. The last was much better. We went out. It’s just hard to travel far, spend all the money, give up weeks of your time as an adult, then barely go out.
I am unfortunately afraid of this infj:( She is an amazing person, talented, beautiful, intelligent, but also scary. I don’t know if she considers me a friend. In this close family situation, it started great then went to places that I couldn’t understand and did not foresee. We’ve been trying or I have been trying to just keep things going. I get along great with my in-laws on the other side. Part of me wishes terribly that this infj would feel the same about me as I do about my other in-laws. I spent years admiring this infj. Then I realized that I had to tone myself down, mute myself. It feels so much better this way. Much safer. The problem of course is once I don’t feel things it’s like they’re not there. So I don’t “feel” the relationship now, so I don’t know if it’s there now. I don’t have a fucking clue if we have a relationship:( But now am just playing it safer. I never have meant harm:( I am sorry, but I realized that I am really quite frustrated and sad about this relationship and writing this has basically made me tear up.:(
I love intjs too.
Maybe you could better explain why she scares you? Cause dang. Scary is not an impression I would think she means to give.
TinyYellowTree,
Woah! I never saw this post of yours till now because someone posted in this thread.
I entered summer with this need to figure that relationship out and spent a lot of the summer thinking about it. I came to the conclusion that there is some kind of mbti-type friction unfortunately. But I feel that I understand it much better now thanks in part to the articles here.
I noticed that the “scary” thing happens mostly when we are in the flesh near each other. It’s a “physical” thing. I know that sounds weird…but it’s as if it’s all Se-related. We have these family situations that last weeks…right there….that is quite difficult for adults sometimes. Her Se goes bezerk, understandably. Okay, so, I am infp and Se is superego to me. I also experience the Se vibe physically as being bottom of chain or something, like I disgust her and she would just like to kick me because I bore her, and she thinks I am unattractive (like one time she literally stared at my feet in disgust). When her Se goes bezerk I feel in danger literally. She seems not in control of it. Throw in a bit of Fi id and she then also seems plain incomprehensible to me. This sounds very perverse and take it with a grain of salt I could be insane. I know several infjs and this isn’t my usual experience with them actually, so that was also confusing to me. So I think it goes to show the stress she is under when this happens. I also believe sometimes she pokes me “for the hell of it” which is probably the one thing it took me the longest to accept. To this day that is the one thing I have to be careful with mentally.
So yeah it feels scary.
Well….I hope I am not triggering any kind of uncomfortable feelings in you, because let me say that recognizing her id stuff for what it is is really allowing me to appreciate her for who she is…. I can see the rest of her much better now. That feels much better and more real and I know that it’s the prolonged visit that is probably causing it all.
Also… I think Se superego reaction on my part makes it harder for me to bypass her Se moments like another type might without problem.
On stellar maze I have noticed a kind of quality to infjs of playful mental exploration and just loveliness. She has that too and I see it less in the flesh, due that Se thing being my superego, but she has it and I love that about her.
Also I am quite aware that the problem must be a 2-directional thing. I trigger this in her in some way. It sucks. Anyhow, that was this summer:) It is making more sense to me now as a pure type-conflict/prolonged family visit stress.
You mentioned Pink Floyd, I agree that it’s mostly Ni influenced and I like the comparison between Ni and acid too: it’s well known that Syd Barret was into acid and it could be argued that Roger Waters is intj. For me the most intj song I know is Echoes. A grey rainbow or the idea of an emotion could describe it but try listen to it while watching the departure from Jupiter from the 2001 Space Odyssey and you will live a true intj experience. When Bowman finally transcends the human condition the music narrates the story of mankind from the first organisms that crawled from the sea to evolve on the land until the advent of mankind. Only an intj can find ecstasy in this kind of all encompassing quasi scientific perspective. An intj can be touched by scientific or technological progress like the first step on the moon with the same intensity as an INFJ would have welcomed the end of apartheid in south Africa or racial segregation in the us. But I also can get emotional when for instance witnessing a act of gratuitous benevolence as I experience tertiary FI as a kind of impersonal goodwill imperceptibly guiding Ni and TE. I don’t require positive feedback but I don’t appreciate negative one neither (but prefer to get it nevertheless as I seek to improve). My girlfriend is INFJ and we get along very well as we understand each other very well and know how to navigate around the usual hurdles of a nt nf relationship.
Hi Blake,
I am not sure if you still read comments on this article, but I just want to put this down. May be it will help someone else too. I am unsure if you are aware that you are saving lives of INFJs like me. My gratitude knows no bounds. I discovered my MB type as INFJ a short time back.
*On the Ni-Ti loop: I have majored and have been working in computer programming for about 20 years now and I always become blinded and lost in a fog of suffocation working continuously. I have done quite well competing with other Ti types in the field — though I always felt handicapped beyond a point. The capacity for cold, repeated objective analysis of myriad problems that surface in handling software systems seems too high to reach; the basket too far to dunk.
I have excelled in creating software systems — the thrill of bringing out something new or understanding a new problem and working out a solution, the elegance and beauty of logic in writing programs always brings out the best in me. Though soon after (about 2-3 years), the whole stuff becomes jaded and meaningless, and I move on to a different software domain/company. I never understood the reason. Now I do, thanks to you.
I had been a decent artist as an youngster, and if not for my family’s financial difficulties and responsibilities, which made me turn to engineering, I would have been an artist. I had restarted practicing figure drawing for about 2 years now and it felt great, and I didn’t think about it much. I always felt programming is my vocation. NO 🙁 It was very hard for me to accept that I was not an INTJ – it seemed so cool.
* You have hit the mark on other parts of the INFJ mental makeup. I can empathize easily with the Machiavellian mind of a serial killer, the helpless desperation of a harlot, the ambition and avarice of a Wall Street banker, the hunger for power of a law maker, the fading innocence of a growing child and the purity of a saint – and not be affected much. I have seen many of these emotions within my own mind. It is as if, I am in myself, condensed humanity. Nothing good or bad, just human. I, in fact, am fascinated by the truly villainous – I sense a strong odor of authenticity from them that I don’t from the zombies of everyday life. I have worked in the Wall Street financial district and met with/have seen a lot of “successful” folks – empty shells.
You are spot on, again, on the abstract and aloof tinge in the compassion/sympathy for others from an INFJ. I cannot dive into the world of suffering and lift people up. But, I hope I can sit in the darkness of my room and push people ahead in their own direction, like you do Blake, with your writing. I have to find my own way.
On the point you have made about the many selves of an INFJ — true again, but, I have managed to integrate them, more or less, thanks to the Internal Family Systems therapy (worked on it myself, no therapist). I just wanted to point this out, so that, it may help you help others.
* In addition to drawing, I am surprisingly good at writing screen plays, with no formal training, giving birth to characters, journeying through their life – and their death. I never took this aspect of my mind seriously. I had enrolled to major in psychology, by joining an evening college — but dropped it midway, due to work schedules and since I thought programming is my vocation (NO). I have been regularly studying history and philosophy from past two decades and am a practicing martial artist. I brought out these points, since they all add up now, since I discovered me being an INFJ and I went through your writings on INFJ.
I will end it here. I will close by saying, that I am now investing a lot of time improving my drawing skills and have promised myself that this will be my last hard-core programming job. My next job will be based on art — though not sure what. I plan to complete that major in psychology in a few years time. I hope I can combine these varying aspects of my mind to bring out something meaningful and hopefully, helpful to somebody else.
Bless you, my friend.
BM
Thank you, I feel blessed! And thanks for sharing your story 🙂
YAY!!!!!!!! WHAT A TESTIMONIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, I am super late haha. But this helps so much. Rather then being 20yrs in programming, I am in my 1st year. I could tell, I cant do this and need some side of myself stimulated. I am planning to try a system analyst role even if it is still techy, it has more human interaction and makes a change, that does not feel so logically(mentally) draining.
Hi Blake.
Is it common for INFJs, particularly male ones, to want to be INTJs? Like I want to be more action orientated and I hate hate hate getting emotional and being sensitive and breaking and going to others for help even though they generally make me feel worse.
Also I’ve tried following your advice about looking for a Fe outlet but it just frustrates me. I’m full of so much doubt as to what to pick. It’s insane. I can’t see any meaning in any of it. I want to do something ‘more’ that just art. I don’t want to be Bob Dylan or another ignored-by-the-ignorant-philosopher.
But at the same time I know I hate and suck at math and programming and engineering. The system. It’s like there’s nothing in the world for me.
Is that a typical INFJ whiny rant? Advice?
Lots of love.
Is it common for INFJs, particularly male ones, to want to be INTJs?
Very common. Extremely common. But, it’s not good for them. It’s Ti tertiary looping. I’d say it’s become more common in this technologized, industrialized, and informationized age.
So, yeah, it’s common, but, decidedly not good for the INFJ male to attempt to be an INTJ. Unless, he almost is anyway. But, then, still, nope. You’re either one or the other in my book.
Fe is gold for an INFJ. INTJ, no.
If you don’t want to be ignored by the masses then appeal to them. You can start by throwing mud at them. That’ll get their attention.
But, don’t neglect to get your own attention as well. That’s the key. Be inspired.
If you don’t happen to inspire anyone else, then, who cares? Long as you’re having a ball and surprising yourself.
Fe is like that for an INFJ. You’ll be thinking where did that come from? Didn’t look like that inside meself. Hmmm.
And then on to the next crowd pleaser!
Thanks man, honestly. It helps.
I feel uber shit right now but I will try trusting in the magic for a while.
But.
Deciding what Fe magic to use is like torture for me. It’s over-analysis to an extreme. How do INFJs pick their instrument?
I could really use one more kick.
How do INFJs pick their instrument?
Morning Pages motherfucker! Get up each morning and let it bleed. All the pain. All the shit. Whatever comes out from thy poison pen. Google “morning pages” and read up on it to get the gist. Should have an article dedicated to it meself. But, I just got a forum up so maybe that could be a good place to discuss and even possibly to share.
If you hold onto one activity that does the Fe magic for a period of time, then, I say it will have to produce results. Expression is so important to a blocked up locked up INFJ. And you can say whatever you want to them Morning Pages. You can make them your bitch – whatever strikes your fancy dear sir 🙂
Great! Thank you, Blake.
There’s something about the work of Georgia O’ Keefe’s work that is so terrifying. Magnificent, surely. But yes, cold. Ominous, even. Something about it that you just can’t touch immediately. Just like a cat, I guess.
“In well-known people you will often see a symbiosis between the INFJ and INTJ. You can see it in Arthur Schopenhauer’s influence on Friedrich Nietzsche, Bob Dylan’s influence on John Lennon, and Peter Gabriel’s influence on Kate Bush, to give a few examples.”
More like Jung & Freud. Or Plato & Aristotle. Or John & Yoko, as for actual symbiosis. Or Radiohead. Or!..
Yeah, all those symbiotic pairs I gave are now outmoded seeing as I no longer consider any of those six people INTJs. I would have been better off speaking of INFJ’s influence on other INFJs, or in the case of Kate Bush, an INFJ’s influence (Peter Gabriel) on an E3 ENFJ.
More like Jung & Freud. Or Plato & Aristotle. Or John & Yoko, as for actual symbiosis. Or Radiohead. Or!..
Exactly. Though, I’m also having some doubts about Yoko being an INTJ.
What’s more correct to say is that INFJs tend to be the most influential figures in the arts, period. Whether they are influencing other INFJs or some other type altogether.
INTJs are not nearly as preeminent in the arts. That’s the primary thing that I’ve discovered in the years since this article was written, as I have slowly reclassified many of the people that I thought were examples of INTJ artists under INFJ (or ENFJ, in some cases).
Basically, this leaves us with a dearth of INTJ examples. I still think Freud was an INTJ. Aristotle too. Thom Yorke is one of those people that I formerly had typed as an INTJ, and over time, have reclassified as an INFJ. Jonny Greenwood I still have typed as an INTJ, however, if he is, he is certainly a very INFJ-ish one.
In short, the more typical INTJ would not be found preeminently in the art world, but, as I’ve come to realize, more in the business, entrepreneurial, industrial, scientific, political, and economic worlds, where they do figure quite preeminently indeed.
So Peter Gabriel is INFJ. And Jonny Greenwood is INFJ-ish. And Yoko is to ponder.
I’m all about the list, you see.
😀
So Peter Gabriel is INFJ. And Jonny Greenwood is INFJ-ish. And Yoko is to ponder.
It’s like you stole the words right from my mouth 😀
I’m all about the list, you see.
Yes, I can see you’ve been list-ening 😉
Apparently I’ve missed Peter Gabriel myself. Well, he goes into the list now.
Ill be curious what you say about Yoko Ono. I’ve been unsure that she is intj. I thought maybe enfj, entj, even infj. Mostly because she has a type of presence, a kind of dominant personality that doesn’t remind me of intj. But I just don’t know. She looks definitely like an Ni type.
Here’s another one, possibly:
Simone de Beauvoir (INFJ) & Jean-Paul Sartre (INTJ).
Had a lifelong relationship these two.
@Ignas
I came here to speculate that those two INxJs might be the other way around… And after a quick search, I now think they’re both INFJ.
Care to share your thoughts?
Have you read Sartre? If so, have you enjoyed reading him?
No, but he’s been on my list for a while. I tried reading “Being and nothingness” at some point and couldn’t follow through. I had this impression of going round in circles and what had initially seemed simple became complicated and I had to make a constant effort not to allow my mind to wander off. When reading about his theory, it all seemed very appealing to me though, that’s why I don’t want to give up quite yet. But it’s true that when listening to his interviews, there’s the same dry, a bit annoying quality to him, which I had interpreted as a failure to get to the point. But maybe it was actually bad Fe?
Simone de Beauvoir, on the other hand, I cannot get enough of, and her clarity of thought is refreshing.
So why you think Sartre is INFJ? Have you read any INFJ writers that had a similar effect on you? I mean your attempt at reading “Being and Nothingness”.
By the way:
“How about Sartre’s Being and Nothingness? I feel like I want to be nothing after I open that book to any page randomly. I don’t know who could get through that book. Yet, it is obvious that Sartre was really, really fucking smart.” (Blake)
That is not to say that INTJs cannot write as clearly as INFJs. Mircea Eliade’s and Joseph Campbell’s writings are crystal clear to me.
Even INTPs don’t necessarily write like Kant or Hegel. Take Marie-Louise von Franz for example. If one struggles to understand Jung, one just has to read her for elucidation. 🙂
But goodbye clearness with Sartre. If you’re NF.
”That is not to say that INTJs cannot write as clearly as INFJs.”
I actually assumed that, given our shared judging axis, it would be easier for me to get what INTJ is saying. I can see now that it’s not the case. And then you have all those great INFJ writers who found a way to appeal to the masses. Humm, ok, I need to explore INTJ more. 🙂
”Even INTPs don’t necessarily write like Kant or Hegel.”
Ha! Actually I thought of Kant when you gave that Blake quote above. Was that from the website or from a private conversation? I feel like I’ve read a similar comment from him before, but I somehow associated it with Kant, his Critique of Pure Reason and INTP hehe.
“Actually I thought of Kant when you gave that Blake quote above. Was that from the website or from a private conversation? I feel like I’ve read a similar comment from him before, but I somehow associated it with Kant, his Critique of Pure Reason and INTP hehe.”
You’re right, this is the comment: https://www.stellarmaze.com/istp-vs-intp/#comment-12315
At that time Blake considered Sartre to be INTP. Now he lists him as Ti-ish INTJ.
Whatever Sartre is, he has Ti up the yin-yang. The first thing I remember seeing by him was something called Emotions as Transformations of the World. Catchy title, I thought. I do like his titles. I mean, Being and Nothingness? What a great title I thought. Because isn’t that what all philosophical inquiry comes down to – existence itself. Like, as in, can we exist at all, let’s look at that first before we start asking about whether black is white or dolphins are seahorses and other such epistemological things.
Now that I think about it, Sartre is probaly an INFJ. Who else is gonna call a book No Exit, know what I mean? INTJs don’t have the sort of fatalism and self-pity that INFJs have. They are a more positive temperament.
Round and round the mulberry bush we go, so early in the morning…
Matter of fact, Ignas, go to your chart of the 16 types and rename INFJ The Existentialist. I don’t think there is a famous existentialist philosopher that could not be called an INFJ. I think it is their exclusive purview, and no one else’s. Poetry however…well, I don’t think Lord Byron was an INFJ.
Either that, or call them The Introject. Because that sounds cool and no other type really does that – stealing the world.
“Now that I think about it, Sartre is probaly an INFJ.”
The existentialism remark does click. Good call, Nur.
“Matter of fact, Ignas, go to your chart of the 16 types and rename INFJ The Existentialist.”
Done.
“I don’t think there is a famous existentialist philosopher that could not be called an INFJ. I think it is their exclusive purview, and no one else’s.”
Would you like to name some so I can put them on the list? Simone de Beauvoir, let’s say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_existentialists. Let’s list her, eh? She deserves it!
“Poetry however…well, I don’t think Lord Byron was an INFJ.”
“Mad, bad, and dangerous to know” (Byron summed up by one of his lovers). Now, where else did I hear that phrase? 🙂
“Either that, or call them The Introject. Because that sounds cool and no other type really does that – stealing the world.”
Existentialist or introject? This me or that me? Deadlock!
Existentialist or introject? This me or that me? Deadlock!
Flip a coin. That’s a good way to end deadlock between two choices that appear to be more or less equally viable. Let the universe be the arbiter.
Would you like to name some so I can put them on the list? Simone de Beauvoir, let’s say:
Kierkegaard is generally considered the first existentialist. Then there’s Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Sartre, Camus, and I think Rousseau. Also Kafka. I don’t know much about Beauvoir, sorry. She could definitely be from what I know of her.
But, the foundational figures of existentialism (Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, and Dostoevsky) are definitely INFJs in my book. Camus is definitely too, though I don’t think he’s considered foundational. Kafka is considered foundational, according to Wikipedia list of existentialists. I had him as INTJ before, but I think he’s just another in a long list of mistakes I made regarding the INFJ-INTJ crossover. Do INTJs write about themselves as life-size cockroaches? I tend to think not.
Again, most of the great novelists were INFJs. Same with poets. Same with existentialists.
“Mad, bad, and dangerous to know” (Byron summed up by one of his lovers). Now, where else did I hear that phrase? 🙂
You heard it from a little mouse that lives in your kitchen.
meow!
I’ll reclassify Sartre and Kafka as INFJs. Should I note the alternative of INTJ for both?
Dunno if I should list Byron as ENFJ based on a meow. Maybe I’ll flip a coin.
Woof! 🙂
I’ll reclassify Sartre and Kafka as INFJs. Should I note the alternative of INTJ for both?
Sure, sounds good. But, for Sartre, I feel like he has some heavy INTP subtype thing going on too, but not sure what. He looks like an INTP don’t he? Also, interestingly he has heavy Gemini in his chart and he was born of the Pluto in Gemini generation. That basically equals “heavy Gemini” and I see that very much in his writing. I don’t think Sartre is an INTJ. It’d be more likely that he was an INFJ with heavy INTP or vice-versa. In essence, I’m not sure. He would need more research from me and I don’t feel like it. Fuck, he could be an INTJ though, one of the Ti-id ones. I think of Ray Kurzweil and some of his dense Ti writing that strikes me as INTJ Ti id.
Being and Nothingness struck me from a cursory glance (the only glance I would allow myself to give it) as what an INTJ in the Ti id looks like. It has this murky, subterranean quality to it, like it seems “really fucking intelligent” and packed full of heady concepts, but when one steps back from it, it seems all distorted and like it don’t add up to anything intelligible. It just seems “impressive”, but it lacks…clarity. And clarity is the Ti Gemini purview in it’s highest expression. Simple, elegant, and clear. Stately. INFJs of a high order often have exactly this as their crowning accomplishment. And they are often mistaken for INTPs or INTJs.
INTJs have this “clear” quality via their Te, so their can be some confusion between these types.
INTPs are very clear and simple until they start getting into any other function besides their dominant.
Ti is clear. Clarity. Prismatic.
Sartre is murky, but, it’s like murky clarity, so Ti id is what I arrived at at some point. But, it could also be Fi id compounded by some Ti overlay coming from a heavy subtype (or astrological) influence.
In short, I don’t know. If I had to make a decision on the spot now, I’d say INFJ with heavy INTP impression coming from somewhere, which particularly means heavy, strong Ti of some order. Could be INTJ maybe too, subtype. Perhaps both. And I’m not going to be able to disentangle the particulars of where what is coming from right now.
Did you ever have to make up your mind? 🙂
Dunno if I should list Byron as ENFJ based on a meow. Maybe I’ll flip a coin.
No, Byron is an ENFJ in my book. Though, I don’t know if he is E3 or E8. He could be an E3 ENFJ rather than E8, that’s all.
Rich and accurate, thank you.
What a horrible interpretation of the INFJ. DO NOT LIKE.
I don’t care. Your comment is a worthless piece of trash. DO NOT LIKE.
I’m really a gray rainbow? I respect that.
“…INTJs present as taut, tense, awake, conscious, and active. INFJs, by contrast, present as slack, loose, sleepy, and unconscious. “
Seems like yin (INFJ) and yang (INTJ). The male and the female archetypes.
Different but the same in essence. Contrasting yet complementary.
In short, the vision that they are trying to enumerate either comes through in a more absolute fashion or doesn’t come through at all.
I love thermodynamics. It has many useful concepts.
Like function of state:
[In thermodynamics, a state function or function of state or point function is a function defined for a system relating several state variables or state quantities that depends only on the current equilibrium state of the system,[1] for example a gas, a liquid, a solid, crystal, or emulsion. State functions do not depend on the path by which the system arrived at its present state. – Wikipedia]
Well I refuse to perceive life as function of state. I refuse to believe that path one takes in life is irrelevant, because there is no change between beginning and ending state (»dust you are and to dust you will return«), or because all process are reversible, always returning to the same point – like Sisyphus. I resent reversibility.
So I look for a vision. Different way of being. Living in such a way, that something of a value remains – irreversibly.
And then questions come. What is value? How comes that a living being can perceive value? What a bizarre phenomenon it really is – value. Discrimination. Difference in perceived energy through all senses creating information in a mind. Value being attached to perceived information by living beings. What does it mean? Why and how it originated. Where does it lead? What is this hidden intentionality?
How bizarre it really is, that in a human being little part of the universe is reflecting itself, knowing itself, questions itself, doubts itself – values itself?
Value as question.
What is this hidden intentionality, which makes all living things create value?
What intentionality do I feel?
Self-preservation is not good enough.
As Nietzsche has written:
The most careful ask today “How is man to be maintained?” I, Zarathustra, ask, as the first and only one: “How is man to be surpassed?”
(These also resonate intensely:
http://nietzsche.holtof.com/reader/friedrich-nietzsche/beyond-good-and-evil/aphorism-44-quote_94473f7d6.html
http://nietzsche.holtof.com/reader/friedrich-nietzsche/beyond-good-and-evil/aphorism-225-quote_c6919cd1c.html)
So I want vision so big it is probably impossible to get. I want vision about existential transformation of humanity – so I can break my doubt about life being state function.
I need possibility of self-transcendence.
I feel like when I will have insight into how I can transcend myself, only then I will be able to wholeheartedly act. All other actions are just meaningless transformations of state.
So I’m waiting. Till the big insight comes. Hoping that in dark clouds of Fi that Ni lightning strikes the tree of my existence and adorn it with dances of flames.
Waiting on the absolute vision.
Wow, haha! I’ve always been confused on whether I was an INFJ or INTJ. This article helped me a lot, thanks!
Many article talk about infjs being more into art than science, making me wonder whether I’m not an infj and really an intj. I’ve always thought that the way I thought, my thought process, thinking patterns, made me an intj, but now I’m beginning to question that due to the following.
“Both these types are primed to break new ground in their respective spheres. The INFJ sphere par excellence is anything that is more an art than a science, anything that relies more on subjective factors and where something is more open to a range of interpretations. That being said, INFJs can do really well with the purely theoretical aspects of the sciences. However, they are generally advised not to make a career out of this propensity because they simply do not have enough sustain and efficiency with the Thinking function to handle objective logic for long periods of time”
“INFJs have little ability to use extraverted Thinking but have a good measure of introverted Thinking, which enables them to flourish in domains of pure theory and speculation that are thought typically to be the province of Intuitive Thinking types. This can give INFJs a scientific tinge that can fool people into thinking they are INTJs, or even INTPs”
“(INFJs)They work more by impulse and intimations. However, they can hit upon things that no other type could for precisely this reason. An INFJ has a vison of the undivided whole that not even the INTJ can get at. In short, the vision that they are trying to enumerate either comes through in a more absolute fashion or doesn’t come through at all.”
– I’m beginning to understand that it’s not that I’m naturally good at STEM. The thing is that I can somehow ‘maneuver’ my thinking and the way I understand this kinds of information, thus making me somehow ‘naturally’ good at science.
– I hope you understand what I’m saying. I’ve seen sth about infjs not being able to elaborate easily what they want to pass across. This is sth we can learn though.
“Often, INTJs take INFJ impulses and ideas and elaborate on them. They basically give them more objective power. INFJs have a lot less power to organize and arrange their ideas in an objective form. INTJs have the power to understand INFJs second-to-none, yet INTJs face outward towards the world with more of an eye towards objective considerations.”
Nice article..