Well, it’s about time that I get into this concept known as the id function since I refer to it continually in articles and comments on the Myers-Briggs types.
I have added a function position to the Myers-Briggs system to account for what I believe are some of the most important features of any given Myers-Briggs type.
In addition to the dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, and inferior functions, I have added the id function (as well as the opposite of the id function – the superego function).
The cognitive function at this position is used in the manner that Freud defined the concept known as the id.
To summarize, the id, as Freud defined it, refers to some of the following keypoints:
- The personality component made up of unconscious psychic energy that works to satisfy basic needs, urges, and desires
- The id operates on the pleasure principle, which demands immediate gratification of its needs
- The id is the only part of the personality present at birth (not even the dominant function can lay claim to this early level of development)
- The id is the driver of the personality and provides all of the energy necessary to drive the personality
- Infants are ruled entirely by the id
- The id’s prerogatives are to satisfy the most basic needs for food, warmth, and physical survival
So, the concept of the id is not new, but, assigning it to one of the function positions used in Myers-Briggs/Jungian typology is new.
Since Freud wrote about the id in reference to the ego, I think it is fruitful to talk about the id in relation to the ego.
The Freudian concept of the ego basically corresponds to the dominant function of any given Myers-Briggs type. The id is the driver of the personality at a very basic level and the ego must mediate between the desires of the id, and what Freud called, the reality principle.
Freud pictured the relationship between the id and the ego as a wild horse and its rider. The id is the wild horse and the ego is the rider who must direct and maintain control of this horse.
As this picture suggests, the id is stronger than the ego, which is tantamount to saying that the id function is stronger than the dominant function in the Myers-Briggs system. In terms of brute strength, the id function is the strongest function in any given Myers-Briggs type.
This picture of the horse and its rider also suggests that the id is beneath the ego. This is accurate as well.
The dominant function is responsible for mediating between the id and the outside environment (reality principle) so that the base impulses of the id don’t run amok, but, also that these desires do get to be satisfied in some form, either directly, but, perhaps, with some delay of gratification or in a sublimated form.
For example, if a person is hungry and they run up to the nearest person that has food in their hand and takes it from them, this would be a manifestation of an unmediated id. The id does not care what it has to do to gratify its impulses. However, grabbing food out of someone’s hand is likely to result in consequences via the reality principle.
So, the ego is there to reign in the id so that it doesn’t disregard the reality principle and also to devise strategies so that the id can get what it wants in some form.
The Id function is Stronger Than The auxiliary Function
I find the id function especially important to talk about in reference to the auxiliary function, because the latter has typically been seen as the second strongest function position in the Myers-Briggs system hitherto.
My experience shows that it is not.
If we are talking about psychological types and forming orientations around one of the 8 cognitive functions, it is clear to me that the earliest orientations are formed around the dominant (ego-orienting) function and the id function.
To be clear, I think the id function is THE FIRST function that is developed in a person of any given Myers-Briggs type, similar to Freud’s declaration that the id is present at birth.
Moreover, at birth, the id function is THE ONLY function in evidence.
The dominant function will be the next function to develop as the child begins to psychologically separate from its mother. I think it is around age seven that the child begins to realize it is a separate entity from its mother and that its needs and desires are not just magically satisfied upon demand. It makes sense that this time period would coincide with the development of an ego function. This suggests that the dominant function indicates who the person is as a separate identity from its mother, and by extension, everyone else in the world.
The id function is strongly related to one’s experience of their mother as a symbol for the world.
The auxiliary function needs to be talked about in a separate article because I believe it is gravely misunderstood.
Yes, it may be more noticeable than the id function, but, that is ONLY IF the auxiliary function is being used at all.
In addition to the many other things the auxiliary function implies, it is above all, an elective function. You get to choose if, when, and how you will use this function.
So, attempting to identify a person as a given Myers-Briggs type on the basis of whether they are showing the signs of a strong auxiliary element is very flawed and misleading as an approach to typing.
However, the id function is an involuntary function. For a person of any given Myers-Briggs type to stop using their id function, would be similar to ceasing breathing in the human body – it can be done, but, only on a very short-term basis and with great stress to the physiology.
The same is true of the dominant function, but, actually, to a lesser extent than the id function.
The caveat is that both the dominant and id function are not overt functions, so, they may not be as easy to pinpoint as the auxiliary function when the latter is in operation.
The auxiliary function is the easiest function to see in a person of any given Myers-Briggs type when it is being used.
Which is another error that many people practicing Myers-Briggs make when they are typing, because traditionally it is thought that the dominant function is the easiest to see.
No, it is the auxiliary function that is easiest to see, but, ONLY IF it is being used. It is an overt function – projective, yet elective.
The id function is MUCH STRONGER than the auxiliary function, but, it is in the backend portion of personality and so may be hard to detect as a base motive to those who are expecting to see something that is in your face and very obvious.
Psychologically speaking, the id function often has to hide its true nature due to the reality principle.
Actually, in many ways, the auxiliary function should be looked at as a way for the id to sublimate its needs and desires. However, the auxiliary function can in no way be looked at as more primary than the id function.
The auxiliary function is often a solution to the problems the id function has. But, it can in no way be guaranteed that those solutions will be consciously and actively engaged by the id as mediated by the ego (dominant function).
So, for example, if we were looking for a person of the INFJ type on the basis of strong Fe, which is their auxiliary function, and were to completely disregard any of the psychological implications of Fi, which is their id function, we would be led into grave errors on that account.
And this happens ALL THE TIME in the typology community.
So, take heed of what I’m saying about the implications of this here id function and stop doing that.
If nothing else, it is really annoying 🙂
Wow I get it for infp suddenly I think. My id wants to dream in “other” reality. Clicked. Thank you! So when I try to reign it in to an “actual” reality it is very difficult. Ne being objectively oriented toward reality is my savior of sorts.
Best pic yet. The Luna 🙂 And very enlightening post.
Or sun? In any case, it is low:)
The minimums help cause they are opposite end of axis with id function? Kind of momentarily calm the id?
Minimums/Superego help to curb the excesses of the id position, yes. I don’t know if I would say that it “momentarily calms the id”, but, the superego definitely helps to “chasten” the id.
The best way I know to picture the id-superego opposition is to picture a small force balancing a very great force, perhaps, through the physics concept of leverage.
Or the concept of perfect placement of a very small thing to balance out a great preponderance of some other thing.
The superego is all about the minimum use of an element to achieve a comparatively great effect.
The id is very powerful but kind of dumb and inefficient. It wastes a lot of energy.
The superego is the opposite – smart, efficient, and due to being weak, cannot afford to waste a lot of energy.
No idea when you replied but only now saw:) so…. Ignore any comments out of sequence. Hmm…. Good stuff.
Increasingly I feel unable to see into my own brain. Is that part of my Ni id? :)??? Like I can’t get a handle on what my id is as if I’d have to use the id itself lol. Confusion is back 🙂 bye bye!
As an INFJ, I’ve struggled all my life with this id. Since a child.
Is this true then with every personality type?
Does everyone struggle with their id?
As an INFJ, I’ve struggled all my life with this id. Since a child.
Is this true then with every personality type?
I don’t know that every personality type, or even, every person of the same personality type, struggles with the id. However, I think it would be fair to say that the id is potentially problematic due to its infantile nature.
However, there are different implications depending on whether we are talking about an Fi id or a Ti id, for example. I would say an Fi id is very id-like (if we are talking about the sign of Scorpio), but, conversely, a Ti id is very un-id-like.
So, some ids are more problematic than others. A Scorpio Fi id is particularly dangerous because it can hardly be reasoned with.
Well damn. Doesn’t this just explain my entire life. Seriously, I was reading and so many aha’s just came to me in a flash. I can’t qualify it all yet, but this is good for some delving.
I shall come back and read this several times and do my best to employ this when attempting typing.
I just went through my printout of the Jung functions which I keep handy [unreliable Si] and it makes a hellofalotta sense with those I know personally too. For instance, my daughter appears to be an ESFJ and Se does feel like her driving force, since she was very small. I have to watch her in parking lots as she just flies out of the car and starts moving, or twirling or dancing backwards with next to no awareness of traffic, just raring to go. Her desire/need to create and experience and do in the outer world is really quite obvious when I look at it as her id. I can even see her Fe trying to ride this. Kinda funny imagining that for all the types.
And here’s to hoping that what I just said is not another example of my ignorance. But heck, that is funny too.
As ever, thank you so much for sharing your discoveries.
And went straight back to read Fi in INFJ and was heartened and consoled. Another thank you, Blake.
You’re welcome 🙂
I just read your article on Fi id in the INFJ. Did I miss this before? Oh my God! Neverending Story! I could not remember the name of the movie but the scene with the horse has stuck with me forever. I’ve had nightmares that I was the horse forever. I drown in coffins too in my worst dreams. It is always slimy and there is despair and slipping under seems almost a relief. I have never been able to shake the imagery of the film. I asked others and my sister who took me to see it about this movie but no one could remember it and I began to think I dreamt the whole thing. All other parts of the film are lost to me, but this scene remains. I never read the book and could not remember the details of the movie but it has plagued me for decades because it has remained niggling at something deep underground. Damn it man! I hate crying, but that article has about done me in. Fuck you! Not really. But damn!
Wondering, is this why we lash out at people using a lot of really vulnerable Fi? It sometimes feels far too swampy unless it is very gentle and pure and not too demanding. Don’t know, but you hit something subterranean. Ugh!
Wondering, is this why we lash out at people using a lot of really vulnerable Fi?
An INFJ will often lash out from exactly the place of their vulnerable and swarming Fi id.
Oh this is interesting –
Sometimes I get frustrated with the two infp’s in my life – like they have this inability to choose what they want and move towards it instead of wallowing and being dependent. That, to me, reads as a kind of vulnerability I can’t imagine for myself.
I think this might go back to the two types of strength infj v infp has – I imagine infj has an outward-facing harsh strength but infp has an innate grit, which is admirable.
Have you noticed any vulnerability from isfj’s? I’ve recently gotten close to the first one I know and there’s such a passivity that also reads like vulnerability and every interaction seems kind of fraught. But maybe that’s just the one I know?
By the way, I have Leo Mercury and come from Texas so exaggeration is the norm for me. However, despite the teenage looking melodrama of the exclamation points, my writing has none of the dark feel of this evocation of mine own id -iotry. No language that I have could do the impact of your former article justice. The id thing seems to be finally making sense. I met my Id when training to perform EMDR. We had to experience it. It is an infant (at least in my case) and it rejects help and is inconsolable. It wants to let go of all the pain that is in it and all that is human. Humanity = pain and that is all this id thing knows. It is hideous.
How did you learn about this id thing? It is so not your regular MBTI. Not that you were ever regular about your take on type, but this? This is really unique and I think hitting something essential.
I’ve complimented you before. But my hat is completely off to you in awe.
I’m done commenting. No more loquacious Rita. I promise.
One more thing, forget the question about how you came to know the id thing. That is something I am not really asking for. It could be personal and I respect you too much to go there. Just thank you, Sir Blake! Dramatic sounding, I know. But I mean it. Thank you sincerely.
Haha now i’m stuck with the image of baby me unabashedly being an introverted feeler.. I wonder where the shame comes from.. I mean.. Yeah we probably gotta be ashamed of our id cause being at the 6th position in the stack we have very little control over how its experienced or projected.. Who in the Divine Power’s name decided that the 6th function is gonna be the horse without the reign? How did it become a rule of nature that our dominant is gonna feel ashamed of the id and try to control it? No one really teaches us that.. We just know that we love the id but we got to pull away from it’s embrace cause it’s gonna choke us.. Where do those voices come from? Those voices in the head saying, “You’re pathetic for feeling that way.. Those feelings don’t matter.. They feel hot? Zoom out to the level of infinity and try to spot yourself in the infrared map of the universe with a nanoscope and you still won’t be a red speck..” Oh! the number of times i’ve said that to myself.. I’ve always wondered what the voices say to other people.. Sometimes i can hear the playback in their head too.. But I still want to know what it feels like.. What does an extraverted id feel like? Obviously there’s no ideal combination of Dominant, Id and Auxiliary, or rather, every combination is an ideal combination meant to guide the owner through an unavoidable, undiscardable set of context-action-reaction sequences.. But if the owner is not even a speck in a nanoscope, why, and how, the elaborate distribution of combinations? Lol.. Looking forward to the next in the series.. I’d like to know a bit more about how extraverted ids can have negative manifestations for the user though.. I’ve seen cumbersome Fe id.. And i can imagine crazy Se id being harmful for obvious reasons.. But wouldn’t crazy Te id be more harmful to those around the person rather than the person themselves? Or could it lead to OCDish behaviour?
Piggie, as always your words strike chords and parallels with my own experience. You and Blake have a knack for getting underneath to something truthful. I know those voices and to hear you write them makes me want to cry for you for me for all the human shame, hurt, ugliness, and pain. Oh and the need for something nameless. Something more. It has no bottom it seems.
. Regarding the voice that says reminds you of the speck you are (I am) in the big scheme of things and tells you that whatever you feel does not matter etc… I wonder if that is the interplay of the Fi id and the Te Superego. One tries to tell you “buck up, bucko. I’ll give you something to cry about it you little sniveling snot.” Those aren’t the words and they are most likely meant to instruct you on a more “realistic” perspective perhaps, but their effect is something akin to the most dysfunctional family dynamics of an abusive parent to a child if you were to externalize these into human interactions. I don’t mean it literally (hopefully most people or INFJs haven’t literally lived those family dynamics) but it just is an illustration of that inner dialogue that occurs. It is a dismissive with each voice or part holding onto its own warped perspective. The effect is more shame, more pain, more helplessness, more self disgust and on and on the loop goes in this muck and mired swamp of sorrow. Maybe I’m wrong, but this seems to be more than one voice, doesn’t it? It is a monologuing logjammed dialogue. No one is being responsive in this exchange and it just spirals down, down, down, down in a negative feedback loop. So, to sum up: maybe it is an Fi Id Te Superego spiral. Not sure if I have the parts right, but the dynamics are known.
Piggie, about the Te id. I think you may be right. It may manifest in over attention to structure. I occasionally see this happen in my ENTP husband. He is usually easy going, fun loving, but he works very hard and sometimes does not know his limits and at these times he becomes overly anal about time, organization, and something of a dictator. He is not rational and obviously pained. It is not him. It is him turned inside out. It is tense, rigid, and a little OCD like. I don’t know if this is typical for ENTPs with the id trampling and galloping all over themselves and all in its path or not. To be fair, this has only occurred under the most trying of situations that would have broken most people altogether.
Piggie, good point!! ???Why???? Why are there mbti types?!! I wonder this daily.
Piggie and Rita, great observations about the Te Id:
“He is usually easy going, fun loving, but he works very hard and sometimes does not know his limits and at these times he becomes overly anal about time, organization, and something of a dictator. He is not rational and obviously pained. It is not him. It is him turned inside out. It is tense, rigid, and a little OCD like.”
My civil partner is also an ENTP and this description fits him exactly. His Te Id is very apparent at the moment due to extreme and prolonged work-related stress that, as you say Rita, would have broken most people altogether. I keep telling him to quit and find another job (which he could easily do) but he is also extremely stubborn and keeps soldiering on.
I’ve also have a tendency to overwork; and my job as a forensic scientist is very intense and stressful by its very nature; but our coping strategies are very different indeed. I guess that the I/E differences come into play here.
It seems to me that many extraverts project so much of their self-identity and self-worth into their careers that they literally become what they do. This serves them well during the good times, but when the going gets tough the negative effect on their self-esteem can be equally
devastating.
As an introvert, my self-identity and sense self-worth comes from within, and is a lot less dependent on outer contexts (such as the workplace). In some ways, introverts may be better equipped to deal with work-related stress, as we tend to be better at compartmentalization. I know that, under normal circumstances, I prefer not to bring work issues home with me and find it relatively easy to switch off and relax. As an INFJ, my Fi Id may actually help out in this regard.
Once I’m in my own space, my Fi will insist on being rewarded for all the delayed gratification it’s had to endure at work. If I fail to keep up my end of the bargain, Fi will rise up in rebellion and
strike down upon its Ni oppressor with great vengeance and furious anger.
Once Fi has successfully wrested control of the psyche from the ego, it has a nasty tendency to unleash its partner-in-crime, pleasure-seeking inferior Se, to ensure that its unsatisfied desires are fulfilled. Poor, displaced Ni can do nothing other than watch on in helpless horror as the unholy alliance of Fi and Se descends into an orgy of self-gratification of the lowest order…
@Rita
“I know those voices and to hear you write them makes me want to cry for you for me for all the human shame, hurt, ugliness, and pain. Oh and the need for something nameless. Something more. It has no bottom it seems.”
Isn’t it so isolating to think that every human is going to fight their singular version of pain all alone? We go to sleep with people but always fall asleep alone.. Ahh.. Yes i know the need for something nameless.. Something deeper and wider that can contain what has no end in itself.. Some things don’t seem to be comprehensible till they’re defined by boundaries.. Like an ocean wanting to lie in its bed.. It is so much more than just an ocean.. It is the moistness in the air.. It is the ice in the glaciers.. It is the stumbling of the streams.. But it doesn’t appear to be at rest till it’s lying in its bed.. So the search goes on for a container deep enough.. Can this contain me long enough to make me still? Containers become obsessions.. Obsessions run deep and then they run dry.. The mental landscape of Amazonian potential is doomed to alternately fluctuate between being Atlantis and the Sahara ’cause it could not learn the ways of water.. And all along the water is aware it is nothing more than vapour.. It exists but cannot truly be contained and maybe isn’t worthy of being held.. Yes.. I feel you 🙂
I think you’re right about the Te admonishing Fi thing.. Monitored by Ni? Could it be that it plays the role of the gentle but firm guide when under the supervision of Ni but becomes the harsh abusive parent when it’s working of it’s own accord? Is it possible for Te to act of it’s own accord? And you’re so right about the internalized dysfunctional family dynamic.. That’s exactly what it feels like.. Interestingly, my parents are Te aux and Te dom.. They’re lovely people.. But that makes three Te voices.. A lot of bullying for the id to fight.. It doesn’t like to back down though.. “monologuing logjammed dialogue” is such an apt description.. There have been so many times when i’ve just left so much unfelt and undone.. Lose lose for Fi and Te..
Rita and Stewart, thank you for sharing your experiences.. It’s strange to think of ENTPs stressed out, but that sounds like it must be quite painful, especially when combined with Si inferior.. Must be a different sort of detail oriented hell.. I’ve also noticed that some ENTPs have this tendency to state facts, in general, and pertaining to themselves (sometimes they’ll even repeat them over a period of time/days).. I don’t know whether that’s Ti or Te.. But it seems strangely subconsciously driven in contrast to the way INTJs speak.. Or maybe that’s just the ENTPs i know..
And Stewart, i can relate to everything you said about work-related stress.. I love the fact that i can switch off the moment i step out of my work place.. It’s almost like it exists in a parallel universe.. If at all there’s any stress, its usually the result of something that made me question whether i’m being faithful to my beliefs etc. On good days it leads to some angry verses scribbled on my notepad, which automatically creates a happy balance.. On bad days, i rationalize my way through it to calm myself down and eventually compensate for it by indulging my (you’re so right about this!) Fi and Se.. Sometimes its healthy.. Getting in touch with nature and the beauty of being.. And sometimes its just purely trashy indulgence..
I think introverts also have greater tolerance than extraverts while working on something they’re not intensely passionate about because they do not get bored as easily.. I had an extraverted co-worker who had an existential crisis and quit because he was bored.. Left alone, i can never get bored in my head.. I don’t need the external stimulation to keep me going on most days.. Must be scary to be so afraid of getting bored.. Maybe they feel like they are boring when they get bored? Ah the myriad forces that drive people..
Stewart and Piggie,
Your descriptions of Se pleasure pursuits. Ummhmm, very relatable and well stated. Piggie, in some ways there is a beautiful and sharply (coldly?) comforting awareness of human unity in our “singular version of pain all alone.” At least, that has been the case for me. Bittersweet sustanance with a dash of sugar and arsenic just to keep things real is something of the effect this realization has on me. Thank you for your descriptiveness of this shared yet separate experience of all you’ve both mentioned above.
I was hoping to see you listing each cognitive function and how it would act in its id role!
Are you going to do an article for each in the future?
And does each Id have different role/expression depending on type too? Like how Fi id in INFJ has a different flavour than Fi id in ISFJ?
Just gimme more information! Lay it all out so I can dissect it and analyze it!
I think that may be Ti Id in me, but how will I be totally sure unless you do it!
I second Prax’s request for a description of all the ids although it would be such a huge task I can wait a few years lol. 🙂 kind of kidding because this is already great:)
Maybe we should let everyone give their best description in the comments. But then again, this is a blog not a forum hmmmm….
I second Prax’s request for a description of all the ids although it would be such a huge task I can wait a few years lol. ???? kind of kidding because this is already great:)
Maybe we should let everyone give their best description in the comments. But then again, this is a blog not a forum hmmmm….
No, I don’t think we should let everybody venture their opinion on what they think the manifestations of the id are for them or others. This is not a democracy. I’m in charge. I don’t mind if others ask questions but if everyone starts speculating on this issue, it will turn into a giant clusterfuck.
I think the same would be true of a forum, but, certainly less so. If anyone can just say whatever they want without any sort of controls or moderation, I think it is highly uninteresting.
The question is who gets to decide who can say what and how?
Well, me, I suppose. But, you have to understand that in itself can be a huge task that requires a lot of time and energy (assuming a lot of commenting).
I tend towards the liberal side in letting people voice their opinions and speculations, but, there does have to be a limit to this, otherwise it turns into utter uninteresting chaos.
When/if he sets up his forum, it will become with a mess because people will be venting continuously lol. He’d probably have to hire moderators at that point.
Because I’m INTJ, of course I’d like more articles concerning INTJ issues, but since I assume he is INFJ, we’ll likely always have more clarity and insight with INFJ issues.
I really like INFP too, so I wouldn’t mind more articles about Ni Id and other INFP experience, but I think INFP as a typing in general is hard to pin down, their nature being puffy and easily impressed upon in a clay sculpture sort of way.
Fi id INFJ: Blake has explained a lot, but is like some tarpit of emotional turmoil
Fi id ISFJ: I get the impression that instead of a tarpit, this will be more like fiery and needling. Constant sling and arrows (by others?) type of thing?
Ti id INTJ: I’ll just go with information overload. Fact hoarding (esp to oneself), pedantry, irrational/myopic objectivity.
Ti id ISTJ: I get the feeling this will look more.. pedantry about rules and technicalities rather than facts.
Ni id INFP: I read something you wrote before, Lunar, and it made sense to me. Ni id for INFP is like some dead truth that sends you into existential dread. Maybe like you lifted a veil of reality by accident and saw Cthulhu and now nothing will ever be right. lol BUT YOU JUST CAN’T STOP LOOKING. –I’m really adding this in because a have at least a few INFP friends who seem to LOVE aggravating (but also soothing in some way?) their sense of paranoia and powerlessness by also being really into horror and creepy stuff.
Ni id INTP: I think for an INTP, this will be more dread about realizing nothing being real and true, nothing mattering, or it all being doomed. A more lost in space drifting.
Because Blake described the Id as like a wild horse or a tantrummy baby, I assume how it acts will also be flavoured by what it takes to “soothe” or “tame” the beast. If you think of the Dominant(ego) function, the auxiliary, and the superego as the “pen” or “fencing” around the Id, a lot of the differences between types would probably come from the dominant function’s role.
I’m not really sure about my accuracy, but that’s my general impression from things.
When/if he sets up his forum, it will become with a mess because people will be venting continuously lol. He’d probably have to hire moderators at that point.
Exactly, it will become a huge mess if there is not strong moderation.
What I find is that many Myers-Briggs forums are utterly uninteresting because there is endless speculation with no ability to be wrong.
One of the things that causes this is a lack of ground definitions about the basic nomenclature of this system. For example, one person will think Ne means one thing and another will come back with a refutation of that person’s understanding of Ne.
So, at the very least, I am trying to give my ground definitions for the basics of this system. In a sense, this system is very easy. It has very few terms to it (even with the ones that I’m adding). There are two attitude-orientations of introversion and extraversion. There are 4 basic functions of intuition, thinking, feeling, and sensation. And there are their combinations, which yields the 8 cognitive functions.
Then, there are the function positions of which any of these 8 cognitive functions can be at. And there are some basic rules for that. For example, if Ni is dominant, then, Se must be inferior. If Te is auxiliary, then, Fi must be tertiary.
That’s more or less it. A very simple and compact language, almost mathematical (potentially) in precision. But, the problem is that many people are arguing at the semantic level and they can’t agree or point to an ultimate authority or proof that they are right or the other person is wrong.
Well, in my case, I am trying to eliminate this semantic element of disagreement. If we can’t agree on basic terms then how can we have a discussion of the more advanced levels of discourse?
It’d be similar to two mathematicians arguing about some mathematical equation when they can’t even agree on what the ground definition for the basic numbers are. If one person think the number one is something else besides one thing, then, you can go no further in discussion.
Also, some people, due to their innate preferences, resist this reductionist method (yes, INFPs do come to mind). But, I find it to be necessary to attempt to rigorously (relatively) define the ground terms of the system if there is to be interesting discussion.
But, that’s my preference. I don’t find it interesting to have a discussion when anyone could be right.
You can generate perspectives until the cows come home, but, at the end of the day, who is more on point and who isn’t?
But, who is going to be in charge of this?
Well, me.
But, fuck me if that doesn’t sound like a lot of work.
On the other hand, having a forum where anyone can just say whatever they want doesn’t sound very interesting to me.
It will just turn into the same shit that is out there and I don’t want to replicate that.
Hey Prax, would you like to volunteer for moderation duties?
Prax, so many thoughts…. You’ve got me all thinking and distracted from what I should be doing teehee. Will reply more about all those ids fascinating.
But yes the superego maybe calms the id and I think maybe that is how Blake came up with the advice to do the minimums:) :):) Although who knows:) In my case insight into my own id comes and goes … Like it seems clear only in snapshots. … Which is kind of well fitting because I believe that is part of Ni id for infps anyway… Um in my own case I think the Ni id cannot rage in its maddening searches into the final truth/psycho unreality while I am trying to follow a dance teacher’s fast routine. Not only that but the Ni psycho thing seems cancelled for a while. I go all outward and not inward after doing Se minimums. At its worst the Ni id is not tamed by Se but Ni teams up with Ti and is “provable”. Horror…….
As for creepy stuff I think that might be more Fi plus Ne???? Actually maybe you are right. Let’s see… You are Ni dominant. Maybe you can see Ni id best? Because I think as F-dominant I sense Fi id clearly for Infj (hmm or maybe that is only because nfjs seem to give off vibes) and definitely sense poignancy of Fe id of enfp. But not sure I have ever noticed Ti id…. Or any other id for that matter.
And that maybe the tertiary is like a safety blanket or escape hatch for the Id?
An INFJ’s and ISFJ’s Fi id getting overly worked and running away to Ti to hide behind “facts” (more like nitpicking amirite? lol) to justify its tantruming/pain is probably how it will look like?
I’m gonna say INTJ/ISTJ will probably dress up their Ti fixation through Fi in a way that it looks like concern-trolling or “I AM OUTRAGED! HOW DARE I MUST ENDURE SUCH PAINS FOR I AM DEEPLY AFFECTED. I DEMAND APOLOGIES (because something is factually out of line according to my classification and I am actually just being irrationally anal)”.
INFP/INTP will probably dress up Ni dread as Si facts/experiences that they had “Something similar happened before and it can happen again. It’s possible! I must.. prepare…. (even if really I am just freaking out)”
Like maybe it will look like the most obvious faking out/denying of reality/defensive behavior that each type will engage in. The type of behavior that induces eye-rolling from observers-on, but you kind of feel a little bit sorry for them because they are trying so hard to hide. lol
Anyway.. too much typing from me! I don’t want to be really wrong in the end. xD
I was hoping to see you listing each cognitive function and how it would act in its id role!
Are you going to do an article for each in the future?
Yes, I will be writing more about the id of each type, and more about the id in general.
And does each Id have different role/expression depending on type too? Like how Fi id in INFJ has a different flavour than Fi id in ISFJ?
Yes, for every id type, there will be two types that share the same id position (just like for every other function position). However, as I have written about a little bit, there are two forms of each cognitive function and there are significant differences between each of these two forms. Since you’re an INTJ, I’ll direct you to my article INTJ, INTP, and The Two Forms of Ti.
In that article, I am comparing the Ti of INTJ with the Ti of INTP. The basic conclusion I come to is that the Ti of INTP (Gemini) is “hard-science Ti” and the the Ti of INTJ (Aquarian) is “social science Ti”.
If I had to break it down into a nutshell, that would be the basic difference.
Just gimme more information! Lay it all out so I can dissect it and analyze it!
All in good time. I’m not a fucking vending machine!
@blake
I thought you might ask this, but I have to decline mod duties despite my thirst for power to maintain order (and therefore clarity and not devolving into stupidity haha). I would be tempted into banning people who don’t make sense and then you’d have no forum … and then I’d become your sacrificial “out”. lol You will have to suffer this work.. … alone..!
I already have a hard time not yelling at people–probably well-meaning but obviously meandering/baseless–in the comments.
I have read that Ti article, which was great. I enjoyed all the cat imagery a lot too (because I am also coincidentally stacked with Leo astrologically). I think I’ve read most of the articles on the site, actually! Sometimes multiple times. I just crave more.. :9
@Prax
“And that maybe the tertiary is like a safety blanket or escape hatch for the Id?”
That statement and the rest of your comment made total sense.. I dunno whether you be right or wrong, but it sounds right.. We’d rather hide the id behind the veil of the tertiary than sublimate it through the aux.. It’s easier to pretend to have gone over to the dark side (from the pov of the id) than to try and decode it for ourselves and others.. I do this so many times when i’m in a situation where i’m about to turn into a pile of defensive mush and then i put up my armour of Ti justification.. We might fool ourselves, but not others, not always..
@lunar
See, you make it sound like a horror movie almost! xD ” In my case insight into my own id comes and goes … Like it seems clear only in snapshots.” It sounds like shadow figments or ghosts haunting your mind, peering past the veil and getting unnerved by it.
It kind of makes me think that a lot of people will probably tell INFPs to “face their fears head on” because INFP insecurity probably comes from being frightened by their own Ni? (What could this lead to? What could this REALLY mean..). But you can’t really “face” a ghost (and will get you tangled up in weird Si justifications).. it’s probably better to just believe in your own strength or push the thoughts away as “another reality” that isn’t yours. Like the healthiest INFPs are probably just able to float above all that and escape their own windtunnels of Ni. It will probably look escapist/head-in-clouds/selfish to some types, but maybe that’s their own healthiest way to deal with it?
I think maybe exploring “other realities” with creepy stuff is a way to float away from the “true scary awful stuff” that Ni id would hone in on? It definitely seems like a coping (plus fascination.. I think INFP tend to get easily fascinated with strange alternate reality stuff anyway lol). So maybe you’re right. Maybe that’s an Fi-Ne way to deal with Ni.
@Piggie
Glad it does make some sense! One of my INFj friends did say that was the case for her. Like maybe in her emotional state, she may throw up scraps of data or information or act like a rational robot to mask that she is being caught up in an emotional tailspin.
Maybe Ti dominants (maybe also Ti ids?) would notice this happening, because the Ti-armor would be not as precise or sophisticated and would seem “off” in that state. Or maybe it’s Fi dominants and ids who would notice this because they can still detect the familiar whiffs of Fi trying to escape.
Though I think a lot of INFJs can be insightful and reflexive enough with Ni and Fe to throw up some covering that could throw everyone off the trail in the end, giving them their chameleon quality. Then everyone can be left wondering if the tantrum was really happening or not and maybe it was all in THEIR heads. Haha. (Don’t gaslight people, INFJ, you know you have the power to).
@Prax
Haha yeah i think people who use Ti more naturally do notice it.. I’ve seen the what the eff look on their face at times.. Depending on how touchy they are about Ti they are either amused by my exertions or just find it irritating.. 😛
Hmm, i don’t know about other INFJs, but i am quite aware of when i’m using Ti as a facade to kind of throw others off and when i am using Ti for personal satisfaction.. The first is not genuinely thought through and does not hold much personal weight.. Like when i’m arguing with someone and care more about winning the argument rather than finding something which has value or truth.. It’s generously blended with Fe and can be pretty darned convincing to someone who is not a default Ti user.. Or when i’m trying to appear like a calm know it all so that no one can see the inner molten core.. It is probably the form of the tertiary that others find annoying.. And then.. The second, more happy or meaningful Ti.. What Blake call’s tertiary temptation.. That is very genuine and internal.. More like a need to know for real.. Now i’m thinking that maybe these two forms are just different levels of activation.. Or results of context based activation.. Maybe the first is triggered by Fi and the second is triggered by Ni.. Dunno 😛
Now I just need to understand exactly what the different functions are. Because the more I read the more confused I get, everyone seems to have a different definition
Ne id of enfj ….hmmmm, what a fun one to think about. “Back end” Ne… What the heck would that be. Well off to do errands while thinking about something fun.
I would guess:
Fi id: highly sensitive, guilt prone, collects guilt, pain that is unprocessed and stagnating
Ti id: touchy, nit-picky, unagreeable, collects facts/arguments, kind of cut-off from others in that sense because it’s like this ultimate defense from simply connecting to others, no rather it’s a state of not being connected, it’s like originating unconnected holy moly I want to weep thinking about it
Te id: zealous adjusting of scales of justice…, shaming, tit for tat, actually not sure I have ever witnessed such a thing so fairly made up, have trouble viewing Te id as collector, love the collector concept, I view it as an action
Fe id: collects awareness or is suddenly violently aware of neglect of Self and others, overcome with dread at being separated from loved ones, fears abandonment over being disliked
Ok
N, S ids seem somewhat different…. They are perception functions….. It just doesn’t seem quite the same? So hard.
I’m embarrassed for trying to guess what ids are since I now saw your comment Blake 🙁
The id is stronger than the dominant….
I am mildly disturbed by that. That is saying Ni id of infp is stronger than Fi in infp. This means two things
1) an infp’s idea of being right up there with the most affected by feelings is not true… I feel swayed continuously by Fi, like it takes me right off track constantly, I feel PAIN way too frequently where I think I am not “supposed” to. But this id business would suggest the ifjs experience more painful pain and act out of the pain. So I guess the infp doesn’t let the pain accumulate but processes it. Well also for an infp Fi is much more than simply shame or pain etc. it is an actual judging function that can process more than just feelings. It is really weird cuz I think infjs sometimes act weird around Fi which is peculiar if they have it in them so strongly. Like I will feel shame for having Fi sometimes around infjs but they have the strongest Fi? The flip of that is probably true as well.
2) Ni id is stronger than Fi for infp means basically Ni id is problematic more than Fi. But I feel more shame about Fi than Ni id. It is like Fi is inherently linked up with shame….. Ni id is something I feel I have to hide from discovery but Fi I am more ashamed off. Like I honestly wish I were Fe. Because I crave connection. Anyhow the idea that being disconnected from reality is a stronger affect on me than my feelings is truly uncomfortable for me. Because I am less aware of it than Fi problems. Yikes. Like I am more aware of people thinking that about me than its actuality.
Blake says: “One of the things that causes this is a lack of ground definitions about the basic nomenclature of this system. For example, one person will think Ne means one thing and another will come back with a refutation of that person’s understanding of Ne.
So, at the very least, I am trying to give my ground definitions for the basics of this system. In a sense, this system is very easy.” and “I’m trying to eliminate this semantic element of disagreement.”
Yes! The problem is that there are so many books, websites, forums and many are not on the same page in sometimes big and little ways. Reductionism is great when it clarifies and simplifies. Unfortunately, one writer’s placement of an important function and how it combines and presents when used with a neighboring function sometimes is quite different. Using the same language and framework and same page ways of viewing and typing with the cognitive functions will be a relief. I finally caught onto how you typed Russell Brand the way you did. The disconnect was using a combination of Jungian cognitive functions with the whole type version of introversion and extroversion of the first type letter. It is a gross error I’ve made since the beginning. It seems many others may be making the same error as well. Duh!!! Sorry for the mistake and missing the obvious all this time. There is plenty more to learn, but that one aha made at least one veil lift. Clarity tastes good!
Whenever and however you decide to approach the site in the future, I thank you for what you’ve already done. I wish you more joy than headaches and cluster fucks.
For example, I don’t associate Fi in the dominant to be that emotional, it is subjective and analytical but its not necessarily to do with having very strong emotions. But it seems from your descriptions and people’s comments that Fi in the id has very much to do with strong overwhelming emotion. So how come the nature of Fi as a function changes depending on the position its in? Does Fi in the id still have to do with analysing the subjective? Or is it just that Fi id is stronger therefore the emotions are more amplified?
Also is id similar in nature to inferior function? I feel like my experience of Ni id is kind of similar to how my ESFP friend experiences her Ni inferior, however hers is less constant, or maybe she’s less aware of it? Like my ENTJ friend I see his Fi as being kind of childlike, like he sulks and wallows in his emotions but he doesn’t really realise it and it’s only when under stress. It seems kind of similar to Fi id except the id is more conscious and felt more strongly and constantly?
The id function is LESS CONSCIOUS than the inferior function, but MUCH STRONGER.
Fi id is arguably the most emotional thing around, yes. Why? Well, it is similar to having the Moon in a water sign. The Moon is emotional. Water signs are emotional. Add them to each other and you get emotion deluxe.
Being Fi dominant in the INFP version of such is similar to having the first half of the sign of Pisces rising. INFPs have an emotional outlook on life, but, their emotions are not as deeply felt or internalized as INFJ (or ISFJ, the other possessor of Fi id)
INFPs have more of a fire moon thing (like having Moon in Leo or first half of Sagittarius). Fire moon is not emotional like a water moon. It is very romantic and idealistic. It’s where INFP gets a lot of there relationship idealism. They want to keep the flame alive, so to speak. Stoke the fire.
INFJs would rather just implode and die. They are like scorpions in their emotional nature. Unless, we are talking their deeper id, which is Fi Pisces. Well, now, that is some of the most tender and aching and longing shit that one can imagine. And INFJs feel this in the deepest levels of their being.
INFPs don’t feel Fi Pisces in the deepest levels of their being. Not in that floor-flushing drowning sense. Fi Pisces can literally paralyze an INFJ because it is so deeply felt.
However, an INFP paradoxically needs it for ego-containment. And to operate as a consciousness.
So, pretty different orientations to Fi those two types have.
Too much of the INFP’s dominant orientation will paralyze and sink an INFJ. It will lead them to the swamps of sadness as envisioned in the movie The Neverending Story. Reference Fi in INFJ article for that lovely scenario.
Blake, what is “deeper id”? Do all types have two levels of id?
Or is this going to be an article in the series? 😛
Blake, what is “deeper id”?
It’s the id that is below the more normal id. There is an id that is approaching consciousness and an id that is just totally lying in the depths of one’s being. I suppose we could roughly say that this deeper id is akin to “the dark side of the Moon” since Moon symbolism is implied in the id position.
So, take the two types that have Fi id – INFJ and ISFJ. INFJ has light side id Fi Scorpio and dark side id Fi Pisces. For ISFJ, it is reversed – they have light side Fi Pisces and dark side Fi Scorpio.
What does this mean?
A bunch, but, it’s beyond the scope of a comment.
Do all types have two levels of id?
Yes.
Or is this going to be an article in the series?
It’s going to be an article in this series. Probaly. 🙂
Dark side of the moon Fi.. Is that what the wanting something that cannot be shaken by space or time feeling is? But of course, consciousness makes a mess of it all by saying there can be nothing like that.. Sometimes being aware makes me feel unaware of who i am or who i want to be.. Lol.. I hope you write more about this.. You be so mysterious 🙂
https://youtu.be/c3uatcJqt54
@ Piggie, I thought you might like this song as it embodies for me what you’ve just said above. I’ve listened to it over and over of late.
Do you get
What you’re hoping for
When you look behind you
There’s no open doors
What are you hoping for
Do you know
Those words say so much.. Thank you, TinyYellowTree 🙂
If and when there is Ni id discussion I will post a something I wrote up last night that explains Ni id as I experience it. I tried to clean up my thought and capture the dread/impression of not being real that comes with it for me. I think Ni id is largely why I feel without a voice. Talking to myself, not manifesting in “real life”. Blake wrote once Id is who you are to yourself. YES. I would say I have definitely hit on what Ni id is for me. This who I am in my privacy. I share this with no one in my life. Just stellarmaze.
@ Prax
Sometimes I get the impression that no one gets the internal experience of an infp like an intj. The intj knows the aspirations of the infp. Knows there is this aspiration of transformation and movement forwards. Of “making sense”, of manifesting in outer reality. The intj seems to see that about the infp fastest of all the types, like second nature to them. And they get this as a “drive”.
Conversely I think the infp can immediately detect that inner cat and wants to be the one to give the water and food and scratch the neck when and if the cat wants it. You see…. Fi struggles to connect. It is simply not Fe. It causes quite a lot of pain in that sense. This seems to be extreme in intj. But the infp understands innately the epic proportions of this cut-off experience. The infp has developed a less stoic way to deal with this and just keeps taking the hits from left and right graciously and processing processing and admitting the complex changes in the landscape.
To be stoic is to pretend this stuff isn’t happening. That is how an intj can look to an Infp. I think any introvert with Fi must be somewhat stoic. But in the intj it is formidably stoic.
Oh intjs, so eminently fair, so Cut-off. But I always feel your heart.
@ Prax
I think Ni fear is painful. Causes dissociation. I myself am not real as is nothing else. I hide this from everyone. Also Ni give me endless thirst to understand but I generally don’t understand. I can look the real fool sometimes. Face palm reactions from people terrify me.
When I was younger this dissociation was kind of normal or possibly fun.
Ni dominants seem to have a totally different experience of Ni!
I think Ni-dominance is what gives INTJ and INFJ a comfort with nihilistic experience. They like being out there in deep space looking down on the earth with tiny human souls muddling around, and enjoy the clockwork of the universe, if I can paint a picture for you. lol
Though I think to an INFP, this kind of experience is more like being jettisoned suddenly into outerspace without a tether. Instead of marveling at the universe’s workings, you’re screaming, seeing the maze you’re getting lost in–and in space.. no one can hear you scream….
A good metaphor for your feeling of muteness, perhaps!
I really do like the image of being a cat. I think when an INTJ matures, they grow from the watchful wary cat into a curious but playful one, and that’s when they connect better with people instead of having silent unmet expectations and therefore dissatisfaction from humanity. I think of the Fi tertiary in an INTJ as fairly simple and idealistic, and perhaps even easily battered. INFP have it as their resilient core and driver, but for INTJ it’s more vulnerable to damage and probably requires the “stoic” guard as a matter of maintaining integrity/sanity. Kind of like a cat laying about and showing it’s belly to express trust, but as soon as you try to rub it as if it’s a dog, it feels vulnerable and the claws come out, even though people only thought they were playing nice and “helping” INTJ have fun.
Personally, I get very testy when people suggest they can teach me to relax and have fun as if my own satisfaction and enjoyment doesn’t meet their criteria (in fact, thinking about this riles up my ANGERS! lol). Perhaps that is just my own workings, but maybe other INTJs can corroborate how annoying/adversive people being too familiar and presumptuous can be.
Lunar,
About dissociation, it is more common than once thought. Most people have moments of dissociation. It can be as simple as driving a car and not knowing how you got there. Yes, you obeyed traffic lights and general rules of the road. Maybe you even swerved for anomalies (e.g., animals, pedistrians, or cloud gazers who swerved into your lane). Still, you have no detailed awareness of the journey unless your passenger tells you. Most people have some experience with dissociation. Don’t fret or fear overmuch is all I’m saying. D.I.D. Is quite rare and I’ve only known one such person. Watch United States of Tara some time. That is D.I.D. , which must be distressing to all involved with such a person. I don’t pretend to know what you are discussing completely and am not trying to dismiss your experience, but I was hoping to add a bit of perspective that I hope is helpful. It is yours to decide if it fits or not.
@Prax
I love intjs. Is it okay if I say that? My father is intj and although he is mildly disappointed in me, whatever, love him so much, he has given me more than anyone in my life. He is such a vast universe, so concerned with potential. He is so fair to all his immediate family. Ethical, non-enabling (kind of opposite of isfj style enabling), asks for nothing from anyone almost, so quiet, and sadly a bit vulnerable.
“As soon as you try to rub it as if it’s a dog…”
I love that. I have seen dominant Fe types go up unduly concerned to intjs and rub them like dogs….. Oh dear:)
Actually I relate somewhat. When inferior Fe comes rubbing heavily on me like I am a circus creature I freak a bit although really I am the one with the upper hand there as long as the Fe does not erupt.
If an intj’s Fi has been battered, does the intj deal with it completely alone then? What helps?
I re-read the comments about dissociation between Prax and Lunar. I totally missed the part that Ni-id is scary for you and causes dissociation. That sounds awful and painful and Prax’s comment about floating in “outer space without a tether” sounds terrifying and more than a little disorienting. I am sorry. I must make sure that the screen shows the entire text. I somehow only saw the part about how you used to regularly dissociate. That is the every day variety? And “kind of fun” but this dissociation is a loss of self? A disintegration of your being? Well, that is different. No wonder you want to avoid it.
United States of Tara is a humorous good series about a woman and her family’s experience of D.I.D. Good series, but has absolutely nothing to do with what you wrote. Please disregard unless you like the sound of the series.
@Rita
It is hard to explain what I mean. I am sure D. I. D. Is something totally different.
Realizing I drove a car without noticing doesn’t bother me. I usually think wow interesting.
What I mean is something much more internal. I know that Te stress is what usually triggers it. To myself and shared with no one (only stellarmaze) I am not real and nothing is real. Like “real life” is some game I am totally outside of. But there is nothing really okay about it, it is a horrible state.
Luckily, this is not a daily occurrence. It is like a flavor through life that I avoid.
I was hoping to find out other infps are like yeah I know this weird Ni flavory awful state…..
Ne feels great. I like Ni in others. Intj’s Ni even feels like a very lovely medicine, just so soothing. Ni is usually fun as long as it isn’t poking actively into me. I am really guarded and try to be closed. Sealed. As far as my most inner bizarre sense of reality. I don’t want anyone to see it and tell me it is cuckoo.
@Lunar
Haha yeah! Love is good and is usually appreciated! I in general like INFPs too even if sometimes the ones that I know frustrate me (clash of logic or scatteredness of thought lol) or worry me (INFPs I know are so.. prone to anxiety or passiveness you fear the oceans of life will wash them away out to sea!). Maybe it will help you to know that INTJ are probably mildly disappointed in everyone and everything, and it’s their own burden to deal with for the most part, not yours. I feel like a lot of an INTJ’s life is learning to mellow out to the fact that nothing in life will be as ideal or logical as you want it to be and developing a healthy cynicism/attitude of acceptance from it.
I can’t really say for every INTJ, but for someone like me, being left alone so I can feel some semblance of “control” of my environment and having the quiet to think things through gives me a lot of relief. When my ideals have failed me or I am really hurt, I just like being isolated to go through my thoughts and “decide” if continuing my hurt feelings or holding a grudge should be my priority or not, and then what my plan of action might be. I think the most helpful thing for me was having basics provided while I’m in that state. Like don’t talk to me unless you can solve the problem for me, just leave some food out or do my chores so I don’t have to deal with life and can be left to think… hahaha. That’s prettycat-like. I think as long as the person eventually goes about formulating a plan and acting on it, it will be okay.
Also, I think your dissociation sounds like depersonalization “a state in which one’s thoughts and feelings seem unreal or not to belong to oneself, or in which one loses all sense of identity.” I am not completely sure if that’s Ni id, but I can go in and out of this kind of feeling at will for the most part. Gives you an entity-looking-down-on-this-weird-existence type of feeling–maybe almost a sense of mystic wisdom and godliness, giving them their certain brand of arrogance. I’ve read that INFJ and INTJ are both very good at this kind of detachment from reality/body thing (because of Ni dominance and Se inferior?). I imagine for you though, that it might feel like you will float away and stop existing at all (like you almost realized you were only watching tv or were playing some virtual reality charade).
And yeah, I think since INFP are so good at floating around but also getting washed or vacuumed away into either catastrophic things/paranoia or depersonalization anxieties, their best salves are to tether themselves to something true to their heart (Fi) or even try to enjoy the scenes and explore the world (Ne) regardless. Even if nothing is real, it’s still all pretty interesting. That kind of mindset.
Since the id function is involuntary, I wonder if there’s any association between the id and the tone/content of dreams. Jung saw dreams as a way to decode the unconscious, so, potential connection there?
My dreams are extremely vivid and I ALWAYS remember them. I hate it too. Wonder if it’s a byproduct of Ni id.
I *think* I experience Ni id whenever I get a gut feeling about things not working out in my favor, despite my efforts, without being able to piece together the logical segments to explain WHY. That’s how I relate to Blake’s prior description of Ni id as being painful & very personalized. Because it shuts down all possibilities (blocks Ne) except for the one I least want.
Hi Lml519,
Yes! The sudden but dead certain awareness that things are screwed….misgivings that somehow don’t surface in full clarity. What is difficult is to listen to that meek voice thinking it tells you something useful but then not being able to discern anything before breaking. The frustration that you feel like you practically need a whole vacation and complete solitude to untangle the content of the voice, and the fear that this will lead to disastrous truth or breaking point.
Lml519,
I love your last paragraph, because it concurs with my experience, but you explained it more simply than I could.
Sometimes when this Ni id thing happens, I can’t get to a truly clear place without getting anxious, because the part I believe I am clear on, is that any negative unfolding is going to be a consequence of a chain reactions of bad decisions I made like a “fool”. Also at some point this thing just seems to take complete charge and I enter a dread that feels timeless. If an inj presses me at this moment, it can make me lose all my little remaining confidence.
And here I experience a difference between an infj reaction and an intj reaction. An intj might actually unhing me a bit but show a compassion that comes from I don’t know where. An infj will often just show they think I am weird and dismissively say “this too will pass” and show some kind of benign indifference to such loony “weak” concerns. Vulnerability vulnerability. Because I am in some timeless dimension or something where I cannot see the passage of time where things should pass.
Honestly I recognize in this the same dynamics as Fi on Fi id on infj.
This too shall pass. Yes. I know this saying in my bones. Did I say that out loud to you? [not you personally, anyone] It is a mantra. It is what I say when I hurt to much to breathe, or other things. And it will pass, and then it will resurface from behind and slam you again, but saying that isn’t going to help. It would be like someone singing soft kitty, but that is not really my way. It is love, but like moonlight, from this distance where I can see it coming and going. I can see how it might feel like benign indifference.
It is the tide we are dealing with though. It just is.
On my 10th birthday, my friend’s father gifted me a beautiful Helen Exley book of quotes titled Wisdom For The New Millennium.. It’s been a treasured possession ever since.. To a 10 year old, there was nothing more inspiring than those soulful and moving quotes and the beautiful works of art used to illustrate them.. I would flip through its pages and imagine being all those people.. Feeling all their feelings.. What feeling were they pouring out through their words and through their images.. What made them feel that way.. Would i live a life which inspired enough feeling in myself and in others the way these people did? Those were the days of magical dreams.. The point of all this is.. There was a quote in that book, by Claire Rayner, which went :
“I was taught these words by my grandmother as a phrase that is to be used at
all times in your life.
When things are spectacularly dreadful; when things
are absolutely appalling; when everything is superb and wonderful and
marvellous and happy – say these four words to yourself.
They will give you a sense of perspective
and help you also to make the most of what is good and be stoical about what is bad.
This too will pass.”
Those words stuck with me.. Till date, it’s what i say to myself when i’m feeling overwhelmed by happiness or sadness.. Probably because it feels like the only truth? The ephemeral nature of all being and all states of being is the only verifiable constant.. In a sense, there is an awareness of eternity and eternal constancy in balance.. But the necessity for balance summons impermanence.. I realize it might be painful for someone who is looking for comfort of a different sort.. But i guess the reason why i find it so comforting is because it is the rational salve to my id.. Only the truth can calm Fi id.. Only the truth can distract it from its suffering.. This is probably not true for Fi dominants, who are using their Fi to escape from escaping into the “timeless dimension”.. If what they need is to ground themselves in a sense of reality then the best anchor is an emotion which can be felt.. Which is why Fi doms tend to prefer to remain in their emotional states even when it is painful.. They would rather feel than know something that scares them.. Whereas an INFJ would prefer to know rather than feel something that scares them..
Ahh lunar.. Don’t you see? The power of your Ni id? Your flashes of insight are ever so deep.. And i apologise to all the INFPs i’ve said those four words too..
“It is love, but like moonlight, from this distance where I can see it coming and going.”
TinyYellowTree.. You sound so beautiful 🙂
This is such a strange and wonderful place, this Stellar Maze.
A labyrinth of ideas, where introspective souls come, not to be coddled and comforted, but to be challenged and surprised and amazed and terrified and offended and amused and enlightened and ashamed and validated and moved.
Within the braided pathways of light and dark wander other souls: seekers, explorers, lost ones and brave adventurers, with secrets, stories, truths and hurts all their own. There is only one rule to guide a traveller safely through the endless twists and turns: your eyes, ears, mind and heart must remain open at all times. Even, nay especially, when the soul you encounter in the infinite depths is your own.
All this talk about the id seems to have inspired some very poetic comments..
“Within the braided pathways of light and dark wander other souls: seekers, explorers, lost ones and brave adventurers, with secrets, stories, truths and hurts all their own. There is only one rule to guide a traveller safely through the endless twists and turns: your eyes, ears, mind and heart must remain open at all times. Even, nay especially, when the soul you encounter in the infinite depths is your own.”
That was lovely Stewart.. Made me feel like a child again..
Thanks Blake, for giving us a place to be ourselves and find ourselves.. You’re awesome!
Not entirely sure where all that came from!
I was actually intending to comment on “This too will pass”, which is also one of my own frequently-used INFJ mantras (along with a host of equally banal aphorisms such as “Time heals everything” or “Just wait a while and it’ll all seem better”). Until I read Lunar’s descriptions of Ni Id experiences, it never even occurred to me how dismissive and patronizing “This too will pass” could sound to other types!
I supposes INFJs are drawn to these “passage of time” metaphors as they provide instant relief from our own Fi Id dramas. Piggie eloquently describes how an INFJ’s emotional states can be magnified by the Fi Id to such an extreme degree that they become overwhelming and unbearable. This applies even to so-called “positive” emotions, such as joy, happiness and excitement. Most INFJs will do whatever it takes to escape from the “unbearable lightness of being” of introverted feeling and return to our preferred Ni-realm of impermanence and gentle chaos.
“The ephemeral nature of all being and all states of being” is an immensely comforting idea to an INFJ who is suffering from an overabundance of Feeling. So please believe me when I say that an INFJ’s “This too will pass” is not usually intended to indifferently dismiss another’s pain, but may simply reflect our own preferred way of coping with vulnerability.
Anyway, that’s what I was originally going to say, but something about this discussion must have triggered my own Fi Id instead. My Fi usually prefers to hide away in the Shadows, so on those rare occasions when it has something to say, I’m inclined to step out of the way and give it the floor…..
“This too shall pass” is very soothing honestly. In moments of health I do find this soothing. When I am in one of those id malaises I am like whoops did I fail to see the big picture again and have that fool impression again. And feel pathetic…. Ah. It does not make any sense…. The feeling of dismissal is a working of my own warped mind at such times. …. So it IS the exact right thing to say…. Sometimes what you need to hear just shakes confidence. Definite id vibes.
@Stewart
It not sound patronizing to non id types. I don’t know. And to me, it is just part of being in the id state to react bizarrely to Ni. I can tell deep down it is benign. Especially later in time. It is so much warpiness and I cannot claim that those are not the words I should hear.
In fact I don’t think it sounds patronizing. Patronizing is “well that is life”. That would be what sets me off:)
What beautiful life philosophy this shall pass is.
@Prax
I admire how you intjs retreat away and rely on their own inner resourcefulness. You guys seem to really uphold that principle in a deeply moving way.
“Even if it isn’t real, it’s all still pretty interesting.” How sweet. I love that. Life really is so endlessly fascinating …… And it is all we know anyways… Ni id has you waiting for more … But this is all we have. Should just accept it:)
Being utterly terrified of the idea of all things passing precisely because of getting pleasure out of the very intensity and pain of your deepest emotions… or worse, feeling like these inner longings and feelings are more precious and important than anything else. Is this being too deep in the Id?
“This too shall pass” is always a balm to my soul. I think it even when things are going very well. There is a bittersweetness in life good or bad for me. It is always with me. I probably would never say it out loud to someone in a state of despair though. I hope not. It is only good if the person is already on the upswing maybe. I use it at the basement moments and in the heights for myself.
Prax’s preferred mode of operation is also shared by me. I am not an INTJ but it is my preferred coping strategy when overwhelmed. I must do it alone and require space if I am to get some perspective and work through things. Only later when I have the words and language and son degree of direction can I share.
Hi Blake, is their own “normative” id difficult to see for most types? People see the deep id better than the normative id or no such pattern?
I would say that the “deep” id is more difficult to see than “normative” id because it lies deeper within the psyche and is harder to get out with the light of consciousness. The id in general is an “underlying” type of thing. I also think it is responsible for much of the reason that people go to psychologists for analysis – to get at the underlying motivations for their behavior.
Gaining insight into one’s id dynamics is probaly the first step towards psychic wholeness. The id tends to be a beast that wants to reign absolutely. The ego is there to make sure that doesn’t happen. It mediates. Basically, Freud says that the ego has to deal with mediation between the id, the reality principle, and the superego. It’s a busy beaver. Thus, the importance of the dominant function to psychic integration.
I had thought maybe since the deep id can truly smack you (disintegration) you might have a chance of noticing, whereas with normative id you can kind of function with it and in the absence of feedback you might not be aware? But…just thoughts of a possibly deranged mind:)
Random question out there for all you folks, but how did you experience the id as a child?
It’s interesting, I feel like I have experienced two ids, my actual id and then my astrological id. Assuming I’m INFJ (currently in doubt of that, could be INTP, ISxJ, or INTJ), my parents remember me for my HORRIBLE temper. No, it was not your typical toddler tantrum. They adamantly claim that I’d be this sweet, charming and sensitive little girl that’d suddenly throw an incredibly violent and random tantrum in the middle of the streets if I don’t get what I want. Those first few years of my life were earth-shattering for them, in terms of their views on just how venomous I can be in potential romantic relationships…They made up a rule: I have no say in marriage. I guess that’s how bad my Fi id tantrums were, but I just don’t recollect any of them. Well at least my parents know me well…
I’ve also experienced the Leo id (my astrological moon). Yes, the way I’d been raised by my mother gave me a sense of inner nobility and inherent “specialness” from all others. It is still kind of there up to this day.
I haven’t read enough of Blake On Id to be certain but if I’m getting it right the claim is that the auxiliary is the inverted attitude of the same function that makes the id? Or potentially it’s the inverted function of the perceiving function? that wouldn’t make sense, no, it’s got to be the former.
I experienced extroverted intuition as a primary driver as a kid for sure. I would say that the way I experienced it was like this: I literally didn’t know people existed (including myself) until this one day in fifth grade. I didn’t have a camera rolling before then. And I reacted violently with a ton of momentum when anything or anyone seemed to be in my way. And my senses made me ill, like sensory perception issues.
For a little clarity since I used the word “driver” ambiguously: I consider myself an ENTJ and as a kid I think I lived more in an id world of Ne. My son, who is diagnosed autistic, seems a little similar. Staring off and very far from here all the time, and willing to murder if he wants to stay on one track and we force a transition to another.