I’m going to stop beating around the bush here. I like to keep things as simple as possible. The INFJ and INFP types are so often confused with each other that I felt compelled to once and for all state what the primary categorical difference is between them, at least, by my lights.
In order to do this, I abandon function analysis to a large extent, because going function by function on these two types confuses things more than it creates clarity.
To be clear, the INFJ is an Ni dominant type with Fe auxiliary, Ti tertiary, and Se inferior.
The INFP is an Fi dominant type with Ne auxiliary, Si tertiary, and Te inferior.
The reason I state this is to be very clear on what is generally accepted, by definition, when we are talking about these two types.
Also, I have added additional function positions to the Myers-Briggs/Jungian system, which are not in common usage outside of this website.
In short, I have added what I refer to as an id function and a superego function for all types.
I don’t want to go into why I have done this in this article, but, rather to note that I have included these positions in the function analysis of any Myers-Briggs type under consideration.
So, like I said, in this article, I am largely dispensing with function analysis, especially since my additions will only further confuse the differentiation between INFJ and INFP as temperament types.
Herein, I will introduce to you a further thing I have added to the Myers-Briggs Jungian system that is much more useful in making a simplistic and clear-cut differentiation between the INFJ and INFP type – the concept of humours.
The four humours are basic categories of temperament that may have originated in Ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia, but were first put to use in a medical theory by the Ancient Greek physician Hippocrates. Next, Galen of Ancient Greece came along to develop these same humours into a theory of typology. I will not describe these humours in depth at this point, but, simply list them and refer you to information that I feel is good on these humours. At any rate, they are well-known and have been around for a long time.
The four humours are:
Melancholic
Choleric
Sanguine
Phlegmatic
But, I have added a concept to these humors that is an innovation – particular vs. general humors. So, each of the four humors is differentiated into two separate definitions depending on whether you are applying it particularly vs. generally.
The reason I made this distinction is because of David Kiersey’s main contribution to Myers-Briggs typology – grouping the 16 types into the 4 basic categories of NT, NF, SP, and SJ.
Thus there are 4 general categories of Myers-Briggs temperaments that Kiersey designates and within each of those categories there are 4 particular types.
Kiersey did assign each of his 4 categories to one of the 4 humors. It seems only natural to do this, and in principle I agree, however, I disagree with his assignments.
So, in brief, here are my assignments
NT = General Choleric
NF = General Melancholic
SP = General Sanguine
SJ = General Phlegmatic
Again, I don’t want to explain here why I made those assignments, but, suffice to say for clarity’s purpose, I have.
And, finally, since I am an astrologer, I have correlated each of those general Kiersian-Humoral classes to a planet in our solar system as they tend to be interpreted by astrological lore. It is not important that you know anything about astrology at this point – I am simply outlaying my method so it is clear what I’m doing.
NT/General Choleric = Uranus
NF/General Melancholic = Neptune
SP/General Sanguine = Mars
SJ/General Phlegmatic = Saturn
OK, that brings us almost up to speed. So, now let’s turn to the General Melancholic NF class of temperaments under which both INFJ and INFP fall.
Well, according to my designations, both INFJ and INFP are General Melancholic types.
But, what are their Particular Humoral types?
OK, so listen up, because here it comes, this is the primary thing that differentiates the INFJ and INFP from each other – though INFJ and INFP are both General Melancholics, INFJ is a Particular Melancholic, whereas, INFP is a Particular Phlegmatic.
The differentiation of Particular Phlegmatic vs. Particular Melancholic pretty much explains most of the ways these two deceptively similar types are different.
So, above I gave my designations for what I think the attributes of the General Classes of the 4 Humours/Kiersian categories are. But, I have yet to attribute the qualities of the Particular.
Using the example of the NF class of temperaments, I will assign each of them to one of the 4 Particular Humors
NF temperaments = General Melancholics
INFJ = Particular Melancholic (as well as General Melancholic)
INFP = Particular Phlegmatic
ENFJ = Particular Choleric
ENFP = Particular Sanguine
Anyway, there it is for the NF class of temperaments. The NF class is Generally Melancholic. INFJ as one member of that class is Particularly Melancholic (the Melancholic’s melancholic, eh) and INFP as another member of that class fits the Particularly Phlegmatic designation, by my lights.
In astrological parlance, since I have assigned the planet Neptune (with all its astrological significations) to the NF General Melancholic Class, both INFJ and INFP are generally Neptunian in broad implications. All NF types are. This generally equates to all those things that have written about NF temperaments – they are basically describing Neptunian things as astrology defines that.
However, I haven’t yet assigned planetary significations to the Particular Humors. I will do this briefly:
Particular Melancholic = Saturn
Particular Phlegmatic = Moon
Particular Sanguine = Jupiter
Particular Choleric = Mars
And now we can get down to it – INFJ and INFJ are both Neptunian types in general, but, INFJ is a Saturn-Neptunian type, whereas, INFP is a Moon-Neptunian type.
And if you know anything about astrology and planetary combinations, this would make a hell of a lot of sense to you (and be very neat and concise to boot), but, if you don’t, no worries, it’s not PARTICULARLY important at this stage except to outline and define my method and terms of analysis of these two types.
Because, for example, if you, for some reason, weren’t to agree with my basic assignments, then that would be a different argument than not agreeing on my basic description(s) of the two types. A description of a type is often very open to interpretation, unless you have some ground definitions for what these descriptions are being based off of (which, in the case of Myers-Briggs types, is often other descriptions).
In essence, I have named my terms.
And, as in the last article I wrote on this very popular topic (INFJ vs. INFP) much of the difference between them does come down to the Hard Romantic vs. Soft Romantic distinction I was making in that article.
Whether that description matched the basic premise is another story. But, you cannot really argue that both INFJ and INFP are Romantic types if you agree with the designations I made for the NF type above, both by humour and astrologically. And keeping in mind my General vs. Particular distinction. Yes, I would still have to define what I mean by General Melancholy vs. Particular Melancholy, but, assuming I did, and that you agreed, there would be no cause for disagreement at the semantic level.
And much of the time, people in the Myers-Briggs community are arguing over semantics rather than the actual qualities of a type. This trouble arises because one person has somewhere along the line (often unawares and unaccountably) assigned certain qualities to the basic functions or function positions that don’t square with how another person has defined them. And since there is no ultimate standard on these basic definitions, I’m naming the standard I pull from so as to avoid confusion generated from the semantic level.
So, I’ll keep the basic difference between INFJ and INFP simple in my analysis by confining that difference to two basic categories – Particular Melancholic vs. Particular Phlegmatic.
I think it is easy to agree that the general descriptions of the melancholic humor are “hard” in nature, while those of the phlegmatic humor are generally “soft”.
However, those are not the only differences between those two humours and so in the next part of this article, I will be getting more into some of the definite distinctions between these two types using those two humours as a guideline to making a definite decision as to which one any given person would belong to, especially if the choice is strictly between these two types.
INFJ and INFP are deceptively similar while probably being the two most popular types that are conflated with each other (due to much of the online interest in Myers-Briggs typology being composed of people of these two types).
I seek once and for all, to pull these two types apart so they are never mistaken for each other again. Otherwise, what is the purpose of having separate designations for them?
OK, in the second part of this article, I’ll be applying the groundwork I laid down in this article so you can grasp the ONE categorical difference that exists between INFJ and INFP.
I also discuss what is meant by the term Romantic as far as I have applied it to INFJ and INFP (and all NF types).
Next Article in Series:
INFJ vs. INFP Revisited: Part 2 (must sign up for a STARLING subscription to read)
I offer personality typing services if you can’t figure out your type on your own. I have helped many people to decide between INFJ and INFP in particular. So, if you’re in the classical quandary between these two types, please don’t hesitate to contact me to get it sorted out 🙂
Featured Photo Credit: © Frank Schulenburg/CC-BY-SA-3.0
Those little face icons for the humors at the site you link to are practically all a person needs to know!
Do you think it’s fair to say that the essential insolvable life drama of an INFP is something like “I just want everyone to get along and everything to be okay!” and for an INFJ it’s like “Okay isn’t good enough, things ought to be magnificent.”?
When you say that INFPs are Moon-Neptunian types, etc, do you mean that they are likely to have more aspects of that type in their natal charts, or is this an implied shorthand type of deal?
Speaking of those face icons. I am INFP and relate to the melancholic icon internally. But I am always concerned to hide it from others, and instead display the phlegmatic icon, while wishing I was displaying the sanguine icon….. stressful way to live!
Do you think it’s fair to say that the essential insolvable life drama of an INFP is something like “I just want everyone to get along and everything to be okay!” and for an INFJ it’s like “Okay isn’t good enough, things ought to be magnificent.”?
No, I wouldn’t say that first statement is true for INFP. Remember, INFP has a general background of Melancholic, so, they want life to be fanfuckingtastic as well. The distinction is more in how the two types go about applying themselves to that general NFish type goal. But, yes, INFPs are more likely to compromise, temper, cave-in, fold, etc for the sake of harmony than an INFJ.
It is more likely that the first statement you were making about INFP (“I just want everyone to get along and everything to be okay!”) would apply to an ISFJ, or perhaps, an ESFJ, who are both General Phlegmatics, while also being touchy-feely types as well. INFP wants more than “everyone to just get along and everything to be OK”. They want things to be magnificent too.
INFJ is absolutely much more of a perfectionist than an INFP due to the Particular Melancholic/Saturn designation.
When you say that INFPs are Moon-Neptunian types, etc, do you mean that they are likely to have more aspects of that type in their natal charts, or is this an implied shorthand type of deal?
It is an implied shorthand type of deal 🙂
No Myers-Briggs type is more or less likely to have any particular astrological sign, planetary combination or emphasis, or house placements ACTUALLY present in their birth chart than any other type.
However, one’s astrological birth chart DEFINITELY EMENDS the innate temperament orientation (Myers-Briggs type). And the astrological chart is definitely one of, if not the most prominent factor, in why people of the same type can vary quite a bit.
I’m also of the opinion that if one does not take the birth chart into consideration it leads to all kinds of errors in typing. Often, the birth chart emphasis will throw one off the scent of the true type of a person. Especially if a person has a series of the IMPLIED placements I would assign to a particular type.
For example, an INFJ has an implied Scorpio Moon (by my lights). This would correlate to the Fi id function (A Pisces Moon in the first half of that sign would too). I have noticed that people that have this ACTUAL position of the Moon (have it in their birth chart) have many of the traits of the INFJ type but are not INFJs by temperament. In a nutshell, anyone that was born with an ACTUAL Scorpio Moon is going to be deeper than their true temperament belies. For example, I have seen ENFPs born on a Scorpio Moon that mimic INFJ traits to some degree (Deeper and intenser than most ENFPs), but, upon further analysis their true preferences come to the fore (extraverted outlook, bubbliness, outward facing perception, itinerant, signs of Ne dominance and Te tertiary, and in short, just a host of things that point to not-INFJ).
In any event, when I speak of INFPs as having a Moon-Neptune signature, I do mean IMPLIED and not ACTUAL. If a person was born with a prominent Moon-Neptune aspect in their birth chart (especially the conjunction aspect on one of the 4 angles of the birth chart), they would mimic or resemble some of the traits of INFP, whether they are innately that type or not. If they were an INFP that was born with that aspect, it would only boost their INFPness and they would be a person that was approaching the “pure” or “ideal” INFP.
Hope that makes sense 🙂
I do have an actual Scorpio moon, but am pretty certain that I am not a fake INFJ. I know we may disagree about who I am, but I know I am not an ENFP, ENFJ, ISFJ, INTJ, INTP, ISFP (all the types that I have hairsplittingly considered). I do channel ENFPs, ENTPs, and ENFJs (the people with whom I surround myself most closely) in a lot of circumstances. I can reproduce their traits for use in social settings (e.g, when giving presentations or when in groups). I have often wanted to be any type but what I am, so it is not with great joy or pride that I embrace INFJ as my own box (or prison). I wonder if part of the thing is the internal landscape as opposed to external presentation. These two things are not always aligned in me. Then there is the question of environmental influence. If you are always told you are too intense, overthink, are too dark, too critical, too sensitive, too negative, too … To do extroverting, which is not my natural strong suit, does mean I take considerable time to recharge in solitary fashion. My ENF/T friends just seem ready to do more extroverting because they are energized by being “on.” I have a quick trigger off switch and it is essential that I stay “off” for lengthy periods. I have very little genuine sanguine or choleric aspects within me, which often feels like a deficit in a selfie loving, laughing, talking, action taking, active/reactive, and smiling world of go-getters. I am sure of what I am not, but less so of what I am. I have considered that I am dark and twisted INFP at times. I have pretty much dismissed this after some time though. I am much darker and less “sweet” and friendly than some may guess, even among those who believe they know me. This much I do know. I have tested INFJ for over a quarter of a century and I don’t think it is just my moon darkening a sunny expansive aspect. Rather I don a sunny expansive aspect to distract from my natural tendencies.
I don’t know why I downloaded my information here, because these articles are general and not supposed to be about anyone in particular. I am not quite so self centered that I think what you wrote had anything to do with me personally, but because I do have that “actual Scorpio moon” (I doubt the actuality of anything in my chart), I guess I felt slightly compelled to process it.
Alright Rita, calm down! No one is accusing you of being a “fake INFJ”.
But, I am accusing you of being quite loquacious 🙂
Blake, I am not not calm. I promise. I did not get my panties in a bunch over this really. It just brought up some old self doubt. I was just externally processing. I am doing that more and more since you suggested that we write. I knew instantly you were right from past experience, but never made a concerted effort to do it on a regular basis.
Yes, I am loquacious now! Maybe I’m over correcting old poor patterns. I do that. My pendulum swings wide until I find balance. You and my ENTP and an ENFP remind me to not take myself so seriously. I can actually laugh at myself now. What a relief that is to laugh at oneself. Thank you, Blake.
Some day, I hope you will see fit to reveal more of yourself to your loyal readers. I don’t think it would do you any harm. It sometimes seems like being naked while the other person fully clothed that we reveal so much stuff here and you primarily comment. I understand why that is, but even in therapy we are finding some self disclosure is sometimes normalizing and humanizing to the clients. Whatever your type, you are Blake and your Stellar Mazeland is a good place to visit. Thank you for hosting.
Rita, I’d bet my cock that Blake is a tortured INFJ who got trapped in Ni-Ti loop for some time and realized that he had a lot to say about those kind of things that most people don’t know shit about.
On the INFJ-INFP difference, it’s pretty easy to tell them apart. Much of the confusion about these two types come from a misunderstanding on the theory of cognitive functions (spread by pop-MBTI junk and lack of self knowledge), which means that people are still stuck in temperament assignment and letter codes (J vs P, etc.).
To me, the whole NF temperament is bullshit because the four types contained in the description do not share the shame cognitive functions. INFPs and ENFPs will have Fi, Ne, Si, Te, while INFJs and ENFJs will have Fe, Ni, Se and Te. It’s a lot easier to understand an INFJ if you look at an ESTP than an INFP.
ESTPs and INFJs are, essentially, the same type. This is why I subscribe to the Socionics model more than to Keirsey’s temperament division. If an INFJ is walking through his functions to become an ESTP, he’s healthy, and vice-versa. Moksha, which is a hindu concept to describe spiritual freedom, is strictly relationed to the overcoming of the ego. If I can see your ego through your words, actions, body language, eyes or whatever, you’re not truly free. And most spiritual masters, ancient and contemporary, can be classified within MBTI, which means they were not true spiritual masters.
Obviously, Moksha is more than just an INFJ becoming an ESTP, but certainly it deals with the dissolution of the ego. If a spiritual master cannot manifest himself with feminine traits (which means, if he cannot play a woman), he’s not free. If he cannot play a ESTP, he’s not free. And if he has a preference for behaving in a certain way than any other, he’s not free.
I agree that Blake is an INFJ, who can step into and pepper his INFJness with other personality types in true chameleon fashion. Especially when he is writing or speaking about the other types, he seems to bring something of the flavor of that type in his writing.
Yes, after you spend time with INFJs vs. INFPs you can detect the difference. At first glance they may seem alike, but they really aren’t all that in sync. I do appreciate the INFPs way of looking at the world and find I learn from them because their vantage point is quite different from my own.
Regarding Socionics, I am intrigued by that system and feel that it brings some things to the table that MBTI does not, but I would have to learn much more to fully embrace it. I took a test and came out IEI (I think) and it sounded a lot like MBTI’s description of INFJ, but not exactly. I will have to look more into it. Lucas, what do you like about Socionics over MBTI? The function stacks are somewhat different in that system as I recall. Is that right? It seemed to me that it offered a more balanced look at people at a glance. I mean it seemed less positively slanted than MBTI, but I have not spent much time with Socionics, so maybe I got that wrong.
Oh, and Lucas, you may feel very strongly about your assertion that Blake is an INFJ and I agree and would be glad to bet your cock on it too! 😉 Of course, if we are wrong… Well, you may come closer to the concept of Moksha and literally manifesting slightly more feminine traits quite swiftly. ;-D
Do we see more Ne than Ni in Blake’s responses to people? That is my personal hunch. Anyone? I think the biggest clue to his type would be in his responses to people not in his brilliant writing.
I see him as an ENTPish type of INFJ. It seems he has a thread of something that he digs into fairly deeply and that he maintains that thread although he spins and wraps some webby lines zig-zagging on either side of the thread. He always ends up back to his original point. So, I can see why you say that.
I believe he personally identifies as an INFJ, but I do not have any proof of that whatsoever. I identify him that way too. I would be absolutely fine with being wrong. Any combination of letters would still be Blake, who is a stellar feller.
Lucas,
I am sorry. I read your question and was called away and then answered it forgetting that you said he seemed Ne in his “responses.” Oops, you could be right. However, I thought he was displaying more Fe, Ti in spontaneous fashion which could seem maybe pretty darn Ne in that it seems loose, random, and rambling. Still, it seems tighter and more consistent than Ne though. Of course, I am biased because of my ENTP husband who Ne-ees all over the place vocally! He often ends up in places way off track of where we started. I keep expecting that the thread will come back to make a completion loop, but NOPE! An INFP, for instance, would not look like this probably.
Rita, so you think infj. I will think it over. So Ti language then. I think I will try to figure out if it’s Ti.
Maybe he is entp?
Would an entp /infj get a headache from listening to/reading an intp? Obviously anything said like that was meant as a joke. I get that. But the gist of ti being so painful, does it make sense for an entp/infj?
I’ve never tried to figure out type from writing…. which means it’s like going blind without any method. I have a bunch of methods for people I know well in real life.
I can see INTPs giving both of us headaches to be honest. Relationships for INFJs and ENTPs with INTPs may be somewhat better from some distance. A steady diet of INTPs may indeed give us headaches. They tend to be more Ti and closed than intuitive. They do not seem to priortize emotions although they really are very sweet. They can be a little black and white in thinking and feel more critical than open. ENTPs seem to have rather large egos and INFJs like to be stimulated emotionally, experientially, and indulge some of our senses in the arts and in good food. INTPs I think can feel somewhat like sticks in the mud to both of these types at times. I do like them. That sounds so critical. However, I think a steady diet of them would have a high chance of driving both types up the wall.
“I’ve never tried to figure out type from writing…which means it’s like going blind without any method.”
By the way, I detect your Si and I admire it. It is very helpful and a trait I envy. My memory is crap, but your mention of that about INTPs and headaches would never have come back to me without you saying something.
Ooops, what happened to my comment that agreed with what I quoted from you in the above message. Tech problems tonight. I don’t generally use writing to detect a type either unless there is a strong “off” sense that I get from someone or some kind of regular disconnect or irritation from their way of communicating.
Hi Rita,
thanks for the comment about Si. Kind of cool to imagine someone envying me. Not something I imagine easily lol. (melancholic?). I have major Se envy:):) “Just do it” Just wow. I envy.
I think the reason I remember the Ti comment or why Si helps me is my huge interest level in this stuff. Like I spend most of my free time thinking about people (with remarkably little profound insight) and rely on Si to store bits about them. I honestly can’t help it. I think I developed Si to compensate for having nothing to Ne about (I swear my brain cannot think in the normal sense).
Have been thinking about this whole typing from writing problem….. I find it nearly impossible to type from the writing (although I am sure type must be reflected in writing). So going at it another way, by viewing this entire stellar maze as interaction between people:
blake stays above the fray for the most part (he does not over identify with his ideas too much=kind of sanguine, yet likes to be persuasive (=sanguine as well?)
he has sold us:) look some of us are paying him monthly, that shows some marketing talent, and suggests also that something emotional is going on where we are getting what we want or we want to champion him. he seems to have tasted infjs but wouldn’t broccoli taste cheddar better than cheddar itself? Rita, i can’t see how an infj would write so aptly about infjs…. well infjs are special so what do i know:) also he is intuitive about many many types, not just in his type descriptions but in his in the moment responses to people, i find the F to be secondary to perceiving and cannot for the life of me figure out if it’s Fi or Fe. his writing appeals to both thinking and nonthinking types. we all seem quite happy here (i view myself as a nonthinking type of sorts, don’t mean infjs).
I believe Ne is in there somewhere…….
So I amend my guess to either ENFP or ENTP rather than ENFP. Hilarious irreverence would point to ENTP. Remaining quite serious about his work (without over identifying) would point to ENFP. But I can’t figure out which of these two we have. Are we acting like a hero’s groupies? That could also point to ENFP, as I don’t think an ENTP could possibly care to have his little collective following. What is going on here:):)):))?
I should stop this…. as it wouldn’t change anything for me to know his type. It’s just the stupid obsession with typology.
Lunar,
You and I both have Se envy and I have Si envy to boot. My Se is both a delight and a frustration because it is not consistent and sometimes sweeps me away or I can’t harness it the way I would like. I guess it is a Melancholy condition of perceived defectiveness and an awareness of imperfection we are experiencing. Sigh! I want to dance the sanguine samba and giggle and say, “oh well” when it goes wrong. Don’t you? 🙂
Anyway, back to Blake’s personality….If we are going with Ne dominance, ENTP would be my only guess. He is irreverent and people get butt hurt and irritated by his comments, but many are drawn to his extreme and slightly exaggerated portraits of the types. He gets by with it as mostly only ENTPs can. Despite his playfulness, I do not detect a genuine sanguine quality. I mean, his writing has that and is very humorous at times, but writing is not a real time process so I don’t know. I cannot see most ENTPs writing about themselves the way he wrote about ENTP. I love these guys but many many of them have humongous egos and they don’t bother to hide them. Why are they my favorite? 🙂 And an ENFP would not likely describe their type the way he does either. I don’t remember details at all, but didn’t he call ENFPs new age, hippie trippy, snake oil salesmen and phoneys? Notice when he writes about INFJs, he is writing most often about INFJ women, so there are a few degrees of separation from himself which may give him a top down view. Or maybe he’s more aware than most that his inner child is a woman simultaneously strong, venomous, and vulnerable? 😉 The truth about why I think INFJs are so drawn to these sites is because we can learn about ourselves by seeing ourselves in other people.
If we are sticking with the Ne theme, why not INFP? Well, this could be so, because 1. He has been far more gentle with that type than any other. 2. He is extremely interested in type and what makes people tick. I don’t know if an ENTP or and ENFP would want to dig into this stuff as deeply and as exclusively as Blake has. However, and INFJ or and INFP would. However, he is not very affirming to many, so for me that generally seems to disallow INFP as a candidate. You know how INFJs have the name of Protector? Well, I do remember Blake saying that was just wrong, which I can agree with for the most part. However, I can see this as right if the person who suggested that name was either an INFP or someone who observed us with INFPs. I and some of the INFJs I’ve spoken to want to protect you guys for some reason. I feel constantly guilty around you because many of you are the sweetest, most real heart felt, kind and gentle people. It makes me feel bad in a bad and guilty sort of way. I find myself going into almost battle mode when the INFPs I know are being hurt and bullied. This is true even when I can see that they put themselves in that position and really should rise up and trounce the villain. I want to go all Carrie Nation on the ass that abuses the INFPs in my world –even when they are not completely faultless in the situations they find themselves. Few types bring that knee jerk response in me the way INFPs do. So, maybe Blake was responding to the INFPs as I’ve done or as I’ve heard other INFJs do.
You have some very good points and are very astute powers of observation. Listen to some of his recordings, because you INFPs have a well developed brain capacity for that. That might help with the typing.
For now, I will go with an ENTPish INFJ.
I think not INFP because of the charging money. Now that is really not mbti analysis thing to write. But for whatever reason I picture an INFP ever having the guts to charge money. Se-incapable. I remember tutoring people and then feeling bad charging money, even though I was qualified, and buying them coffee and donut. It’s the idiot side of me.
And Rita, yes about the dancing:) I went to a dance class and the teacher be like Cardio Dance! and she just launched into a routine without intro, a link of about 10 different steps, some of which were fancy hip shakes. So I tried to go for it and would have moments of smoothness about 2 seconds long but then would catch myself, becoming aware of the moves too much, and all the smoothness evaporates.
Hahahaha, that’s fine Rita, I’m so sure on this one that I’ll let you bet my buddy.
There’s no other alternatives, Blake is INFJ. He can play funny, but he’s kind of raw and sort of disgusting. Gets his hands dirty in writing, but I’d bet my balls that he isn’t that wild in real life. The whole thing about making profit with MBTI and astrology knowledge is an INFJ contemporary theme, forcing himself to write about shit that he knows that no one else would care to write so wholeheartedly and accurately.
He doesn’t care to be extreme and to explore the edges. In fact, he enjoys it. Kind of an artist, a wise man, a mystifier, entertainer, joker, but at the same time he doesn’t fit. Stellar Maze is the byproduct of an INFJ who needed to write about what he wanted to write, in any way he wanted. And make money out of it. His personal introduction (I Astrologer) is pure INFJness.
You see, that’s the funny thing about creating a virtual debate-based space filled with INFJs. Suddenly we’re all naked in the wilderness of collective unconscious trying to run away from our personal hells of action and embodiment.
Isn’t that lovely?
Oh, about Socionics, I don’t know much about the system. It’s also based on Jung’s cognitive theory, but somewhere along the line there is some sort of theory of information reasoning and so on. I was referring to the Socionics’ concept of duality, which means that opposites have more to teach and share to each other. That makes sense if you take into account the whole anima/animus concept. Basically, we’re all searching for our duality pair, which means someone that can embody the characteristics of our unconscious. In oriental philosophies, that search isn’t necessarily extroverted (someone of actual flesh and bones to marry and have kids), but also introverted (the primordial concept of union between conscious and unconscious, male and female, animus and anima, which gives rise to spiritual enlightenment).
Blake,
This is awesome 😀 Can’t wait for the next part.. I think i understood the semantics.. What you’ve assigned to the different NF types seems about right.. I know you haven’t defined particular melancholic and particular phlegmatic yet.. But the reason it seems right is cause, while i was reading the melancholic link i could relate to every statement.. And then I read the phlegmatic link and actually assumed it would apply to INFPs for some reason (I hadn’t read the rest of your article yet).. It was a LOT like the INFPs i know but not in the this-seems-complete-and-perfect way in which i could relate to the melancholic page.. It seemed a little too wishy washy and not idealistic enough.. So I get what you’re getting at, I think (I hope) 😀
So as per the pattern, my guess is the rest of the classifications would be as follows :
If NT = General Choleric
ENTJ = Particular Choleric
INTJ = Particular Melancholic
INTP = Particular Phlegmatic
ENTP = Particular Sanguine
If SP = General Sanguine
ESFP = Particular Sanguine
ISFP = Particular Phlegmatic (?)
ESTP = Particular Choleric
ISTP = Particular Melancholic
If SJ = General Phlegmatic
ISTJ = Particular Phlegmatic (?)
ESTJ = Particular Choleric
ESFJ = Particular Sanguine
ISFJ = Particular Melancholic
Does this correspond to your classification?
If this happens to be right, I can’t wrap my head around ISTJs being both general and particular phlegmatics (I don’t even know what a particular phlegmatic is like yet :p).. They are quite stubborn.. They are ideal followers though.. And ISFP as particular phlegmatic sounds strange too.. I guess I should wait till your next article defines these terms..
Also, do you know of any reliable online resources those of us who don’t know much about astrology could refer to, to study the basics?
Yeah you’d think ISTJ would be phlegmatic/choleric in some order no, just going off the icons lol? This is gonna give a new way to look at the types. I love that.
Wouldn’t ESFJ be particular choleric? And now I’m thinking ISTJ to be phlegmatic/melancholic, going off humour descriptions.
How about switch your ISTJ and ISFJ?
@ Lunar
Good job on the ISTJ/ISFJ switch. You’re right. That’s the way I assign them.
Never mind….. ISFJ=particularly melancholic makes sense.
Actually no. What do you make of switching the two?
@ Piggie
Does this correspond to your classification?
If this happens to be right, I can’t wrap my head around ISTJs being both general and particular phlegmatics
No, it doesn’t correspond to my classification. ISTJ would be Particular Melancholic and ISFJ would be Particular Phlegmatic. You would also need to switch around ESTJ and ESFJ too. ESTJ = Particular Sanguine and ESFJ = Particular Choleric.
For SP (General Sanguines) you got ISFP right (by my lights), but, you would need to switch ESTP and ESFP. ESTP = Sanguine of Sanguines! And ESFP = Choleric of Sanguines.
You got all the NTs (General Cholerics) right!
By my lights 🙂
Also, do you know of any reliable online resources those of us who don’t know much about astrology could refer to, to study the basics?
To be honest with you, I am not too enthusiastic about any online sources to learn astrology that I know of. That being said, I must admit I am not too abreast of what is going on nowadays with astrology on the internet, except in a vague sense, and most of what I see I don’t particularly like.
There is one astrology site that I highly recommend and that is Astrodienst. I believe it is also the top astrology website in the world. One thing that is excellent about this site is that they have extremely high-quality astrology charting software that can be used for free. So, you can get your astrology chart calculated for free and they do offer some free interpretations of various factors in your chart. There are also articles by some of the best astrologers around on this site, people like Liz Greene and Rob Hand. These are some serious and legit people. And I highly respect them.
I don’t like all the articles on the site but they are for the most part intelligent articles and tutorials. More intelligent and varied than any other resource I know of.
O, how could I forget! Check out Cafe Astrology. That would be a good place to learn some of the basics (and even intermediate stuff). They will take you through all the major stuff that beginners need to know and the writing is what I would call fair, balanced, and reasonable. You can’t go wrong with that site. The woman who writes on it is very good.
So, that’s two astrology sites that I vouch for 🙂
Woohoo, I got a bunch of these right. Yeehaw. Actually I just came out of an exercise class, hence the over the top enthu.
@Blake
Ahh I got all the SJs mixed up I see :p
Yes melancholic makes sense for ISTJ.. But are ISFJs pliable enough to be phlegmatic inside out? Some are pretty assertive in a hidden way.. Hmm.. If ESFJs are particular choleric and ESTJs are particular sanguine then I’m thinking I’ve typed some celebrities wrong.. I wish I hung out with more sensors in real life 🙁 This humors thing is such a nice way of getting a person’s vibe right.. Looking forward to your theory in the next article..
Thank you so much for the astrology links! I’ve got something new to drown myself in..
I’m more interested in the mechanics of astrology.. Where I live, the birth chart is one of the first things they make when a baby is born.. But I find the general approach to astrology here very commercial and melodramatic.. It makes sense for planetary positions to influence one’s personality.. And it surely makes sense for it to be used as a tool to understand the self and then use the knowledge to handle and respond to real life situations better.. But astrology here is largely used as a mechanism to predict the future.. Astrologers help you prevent the occurrence of certain events (this part always works, for obvious reasons) or help you make certain events occur (this part doesn’t always work, for obvious reasons) in exchange for money..
I find that a little hard to digest.. An astrologer could work as a life coach I guess.. The zodiac signs and houses and the planets moving across them, all those things make sense cause they are based on actual heavenly bodies and geometry and the behavioral implications and the broad classifications they give rise to are visible.. But is it really possible to use one’s birth chart as a crystal ball?
I can understand how this would help a person subconsciously by giving them some faith and peace of mind, so I don’t hold it against those who do accept it without question.. But it’s always been something that has bothered me because it’s affected my life to the extent that I’ve been pushed into taking up a job as a computer programmer (I hate it :\) by loved ones around me, based on the inputs of various astrologers.. It’s not right of me to blame someone else for the choices I’ve made.. I’ve never been able to make up my own mind.. The fear of unknowingly going against the cosmos and hurting those close to me VS. my need to be myself and find myself and do something more meaningful with my life.. So I wanna know how this works to see where the line should be drawn.. Plus, I’ll be able to read so much more into what you write about.. It’s already so fascinating, but I’ll be able to zoom out and increase the angle of view of my mind’s eye..
And like some others suggested, it would be really cool if you did an astrology mini series to add to your Scorpio moon, Pisces moon and Cancer articles.. Your perspective always brings something new to the table.. Thanks again 🙂
Hey lunar!
You’re quite a natural at this 😀
You got ESFJ right too.. Why did you feel like melancholic would fit ISFJ too? Show me how your mind works :p
Hi Piggie, first off I probably got mostly lucky there. Second, it could be that there is some similarity to how Blake senses type and how I do? Dunno. I know my INTP husband goes about it a bit differently to me. We often arrive at the same conclusions, but it’s not the same process. He is more rigorous, I’m not really rigorous, going off more by impressions from mostly people I know. It really helps when I know 4 people of one type fairly well. My mother is ISTJ. I was pretty sure she has the melancholy in the sense of eternal disappointment in others (but this is never stated, it’s so inward).
For ISFJ I almost thought they could be choleric too. But then I think that their version of assertiveness always seems to be a reaction to being unable to be assertive etc, so everything happens in roundabout ways, calculating nonetheless. But I really dunno. Actually I’m telling you it was luck.
ESFJ I thought was choleric because I know several and there seems to be a fairly good trickle of trying to be on top of whatever is happening, to look good doing it. Almost showing off. I have a good friend who is ESFJ and even with this friendship of ours, there are these moments of showing off that I don’t quite understand. It’s mild, but seems to be a bit like that oneupmansship in the humor description. She sometimes seems bored if she is not the one causing what happens around her. I detect whiffs of inability to go with the flow of others….
I thought ESTJ could be sanguine, because I see such a lack of behind the scenes conniving. Even if they are choleric they also seem relatively genuine and innocent in their (to me annoyingness). They seem to like to have fun too, and are so energetic. And I’ve seen some that like to have lots of friends etc.
It’s just impressions… nothing like the exact type of answer my INTP husband could give you or the amazing stuff Blake could tell you:)
Hi Piggie, I didn’t anwer your question. Why melancholy for ISFJ as well? I was thinking of them as vulnerable, but I think that ISFJs are better manipulators/orchestrators of their environments than ISTJs: if they can just arrange for what they want in the specifics that they care about, and they seem to do this in a way that others can hardly do anything about, then they are more than willing to be compliant in other ways. I think ISTJs are more cut off from people, finding that they always fall short and can’t be counted on. Which is why I was thinking maybe ISTJs could be considered more melancholic. But IS there a right answer? I am not so sure of that….
Thank you for the detailed response!
“ESFJ I thought was choleric because I know several and there seems to be a fairly good trickle of trying to be on top of whatever is happening, to look good doing it. Almost showing off. I have a good friend who is ESFJ and even with this friendship of ours, there are these moments of showing off that I don’t quite understand. It’s mild, but seems to be a bit like that oneupmansship in the humor description. She sometimes seems bored if she is not the one causing what happens around her. I detect whiffs of inability to go with the flow of others….”
That’s interesting.. I don’t know any ESFJs in real life.. But I see this in my ENFJ and ESFP friends all the time! I grew up with an ENFJ best friend ( I knew nothing about type back then) and it was great having her around.. But she always felt the need to prove her superiority over me in every aspect of life.. I knew that it stemmed from insecurities, so I never really took it personally, but I didn’t understand why she needed to do that with someone who knew her inside out.. It made more sense after i found out she’s ENFJ (that uncertain tertiary Se).. And it makes even more sense now if I think of her as having melancholic + choleric humor.. In ESFPs it’s way easier to ignore the same tendency because of their general sanguine nature.. Yeah.. I can see how EN*J / ESF* might be particular cholerics..
What you said about ISFJ/ISTJ.. I felt the same way.. Melancholic felt right for ISTJ but phlegmatic was too nice for ISFJ.. Maybe I have the impression particular phlegmatic is nice cause I associate it with the INFP vibe in my head.. Haha there is no right answer I guess.. It’s all just intuition and perspectives 😀
Hi Piggie, my enfj friend also likes to make sure she comes out looking good in discussions and exercises some control over discussions to this end. The skill set is super impressive to me. Doesn’t bother me much actually as it is pretty harmless, but once I noticed it I couldn’t stop seeing it!
Awesome. Looking forward to seeing these types distinguished using these new terms.
I’m totally with you leaving the cognitive functions behind for the sake of clarity, but if you’re up to writing more about INFPs Id function later on…I’m very interested haha. (Not sure if you’ve written about it elsewhere already)
Damnit. I just want to be happy. I read the melancholic and it feels accurate but it also seems like there’s no hope. I’m tired of feeling that way when I read accurate INFJ shit. Natural INFJ reaction. Victim state. Breakfast might help. I guess I’ll eat breakfast now.
I had the same (but INFP) victim state reaction. Damm the melancholy.:) Must be classic melancholic reaction. And um, I skipped breakfast. I think the whole sensing inaptitude could be contributing to melancholy:)
Fa sho. Eating breakfast helped though lol.
No, infantile and you’re an INFP. Read up FiNe in typeinmind.com
Piggie, I did my birth chart on astro matrix and they gave detailed descriptions that seemed really accurate. I’ve done all of my family’s charts on there too and I feel like the descriptions were good.
Blake, you’re brilliant. My cup runneth over this morning. When I read about esoteric saturn, it really connected some dots. And of course leads to me to new questions.
Thanks Michelle 🙂
I found particular parts of melancholy true, but I also found particular parts of sanguine true. I think it perfectly explains my polarity.
Melancholic: “It’s easier for them to reject and hate things than it is for them to love and embrace them. ”
Story of my life. And I think it’s a very bizarre way to be!
Interesting article. The humours are fascinating and simplicity is an overarching goal of mine, being that I can overcomplicate and overthink everything. I look forward to the follow up article. In the meantime, for any who may be interested, I found this humour quiz to determine your primary temperament:: http://personality-testing.info/tests/O4TS/
Reading about neptune is so painful. Oh my god, I get sucked right into. Reality disappears almost instantly.
Question, I have sun in pisces, but when the sun is aspected in my birth chart, does Neptune {as ruler of pisces} have an effect on those aspects? Or are they related to the sun as a ruling planet?
Would those aspects reflect leo energy since the sun is the ruler of leo? Technically, that’s three questions. This is confusing to me. See neptune confuses me.
Question, I have sun in pisces, but when the sun is aspected in my birth chart, does Neptune {as ruler of pisces} have an effect on those aspects?
Neptune has an effect on any planets you have placed in Pisces because Neptune rules Pisces. Each sign in astrology is ruled by a planet. So, that is one of the ways a planet can have an “effect” in astrology – by rulership.
Whether Neptune has an effect on the aspects that are being made to those planets is not really the right way to look at it. Neptune is having an effect on the planets in Pisces by virtue of ruling those planets, whether or not it is making an aspect to them or not.
I wouldn’t say that Neptune is “effecting the aspects” being made to those planets that are placed in the sign it rules (Pisces). Rather, it is effecting the planets in Pisces by ruling them. That’s all. Now, if those planets in Pisces are making aspects to other planets in other signs, then, that is “another effect” to take into consideration in the astrological analysis of the condition of those planets in Pisces. But, they are rather in the nature of separate factors that must be blended together in the final analysis to arrive at a balanced interpretation. However, I wouldn’t say that “Neptune is having an effect on the aspects being made to the planets in the sign of Pisces. It is having an effect on the planets themselves, not the aspects. In this case, the effect Neptune would be having on those planets is by virtue of ruling them, and not by aspecting those planets. If other planets are aspecting the planets in Pisces, that is another factor to take into consideration in judging the condition of those planets in Pisces. But, no, Neptune is not effecting those aspects strictly speaking. That would be like saying a noun is effecting a verb or something like that.
Man, you really asked a confusing question!
Can you recommend a good “Astrology 101” resource that doesn’t read like a page from Cosmo? Or do a post, if you are so inclined? It seems like astrology informs the essence of alot of your insights, and I would really like to learn more. It’s too bad that it gets such a bad rap and isn’t taken very seriously, because so much of what you write is very on-point.
The best Astrology 101 source that I like is more like a page from the Hitchhiker’s Guide To the Galaxy rather than Cosmos. It goes by the name of Secrets From a Stargazer’s Notebook by Deborah Kempton Smith. It’s available on Amazon. I highly recommend it for the first book that a person would read on Astrology. It’s funny, irreverent, and nails the essence of the basic factors in astrology.
I’ll be writing more about astrology in the course of time as well as putting out a list and review of some of the books/publications that I recommend on the topic of astrology.
But, get that book meanwhile 🙂
Thanks, Blake!
Blake, this article is so well done. The humour make so much sense to me and I agree with your assessment of NF with subtypes. I have thought about this in just this way before, but never wrote about it. I’m so glad you are doing so and I think this will be helpful to so many.
Thanks!
Blake, will you describe your system of utilizing astrology just a little bit more. I find I’m confused because you talk about “implied” and “actual” planet positions. I can understand, I think, what you mean by implied in that you are talking about directions and tendencies of a personality and utilizing astrological designations and descriptions to help flesh that out. However, you also mention “actual” planetary influences as if that means something real to you. If so how?
“Actual” planetary influences simply means that a person was born with that actual planetary combination/position in their birth chart, whereas an implied planetary influence means that one was born with the temperament (Myers-Briggs type) that corresponds to that planetary influence.
Make sense?
In other words, you don’t need to be born on a Scorpio Moon to have that “implied” position. You simply need to be born an INFJ. All INFJs have “implied” Scorpio Moons (by my lights), whether they were born while the Moon was in Scorpio or not (most will not be by simple statistical chance).
Most people that are born on a Scorpio Moon will not be INFJs, but, they will have some of the traits of INFJs due to being born on a Scorpio Moon. Why? Because Scorpio is the implied Moon position of INFJ.
Most INFJs will be born at some other time of the Moon (say Libra or Capricorn) but that doesn’t change the implied position of their Moon. The actual position of the moon must be taken into account as a modifying or emending factor of the basic temperament.
To me, the implied position is the most important. Wherever the actual Moon happens to be is a secondary factor. INFJs are more alike than not. Which is why there are all under the label of INFJ. Otherwise, it wouldn’t make sense. Yes, some INFJs were born with Libra Moons and others were born with Sagittarius Moons and so forth, but, that is a qualifying factor and not an essential one. An INFJ can be born on any Moon sign and still be an INFJ. Why? Because one’s astrology does not determine one’s type, however, it does qualify and emend it. It varies it. But, still within the continuum of one’s type.
For example, an INFJ born on a Libra Moon will be a “lighter” INFJ than one born on, say, a Capricorn Moon. If an INFJ was born on an actual Scorpio Moon, then they would tend to be the “deepest” INFJs around, all other things being equal (which of course they aren’t). You have to blend all the factors in a astrological chart together with the innate temperament type (MB type).
As a more complex example (which is often the case), an INFJ could be born on a Scorpio Moon, a Libra Sun, and Gemini Rising. The latter two placements are “lighter” in tone than the Scorpio Moon. So, you would have to blend them all together with the temperament indications to arrive at an interpretation.
And there are other factors besides simple sign placements in astrology. There are aspects, house placements, rulerships, angular placements and so on.
But, to keep it simple, all the factors of the astrological chart must be blended with the temperament indications to arrive at a balanced portrait.
Myers-Briggs is really using the language of astrology (unbeknownst to itself) to arrive at a psychological type. However, the birth chart is not indicating the innate type. One’s type likely exists prior to birth. That is my observation. And I can’t get into that here because it’s necessarily going to get into the metaphysical.
But, I will in time get into all this stuff. There is a lot to get into. Trust me.
And astrology in and of itself is a very complex field. Myers-Briggs has huge implications as well. In and of themselves.
I am trying to show how they are both really related. I would consider Myers-Briggs as a branch of the field of astrology. And so in order to properly understand what Myers-Briggs is getting at, one must wrap one’s mind around the basics of the language that astrology uses.
And so, that’s what I’m doing with this website more or less, trying to show to the Myers-Briggs people that it is related to astrology. But, there are also things within the Myers-Briggs field itself that I feel are in need of revision strictly on its own grounds.
Anyway, there is a lot to get into. Stay tuned. And be patient.
Blake,
Thanks for the reply. I kind of figured this is where you were going with this, but just needed to clarify if the implied positions are so important, if you think the actual positions matter. Apparently, you think it is a matter of shading of a personality. Thanks for making it a little more clear to me. Maybe I’ll consult with you to do my chart in the future. Is this something you do? If so, when we decide to do this, I can send you a chart with the planets and placements, complete with squares, conjunctions, etc… What I would be interested in how so many of these influences work together to influence me and the parts that are more “strong” or whatever the terminology is. Let me know, and I’ll start saving my dollars to make that happen.
I’d love to consult with you!
You don’t have to send me the chart. I have charting software that I use that has all the bells and whistles 🙂
Start saving!
Blake, I will. Thank you. If you don’t mind answering a general question that may apply to others as well as me. In an actual chart, how important would you say the dominant planetary influence is? Michelle mentioned this. I used Astrodienst and found out that my dominant is Pluto and my next highest influence is Saturn. It means little to me. I just got curious as to how much weight these have. Not for me specifically, since that is consultation level stuff, but in general terms. Does this matter to you?
The “listener” bit in phlegmatic description is what, in my opinion, really sets INFPs apart from INFJs.
“They are however excellent and attentive listeners, who will quietly and politely take in and absorb the conversations of their friends. They will always pay attention, and will offer supportive feedback rather than criticism or advice. They’d never say things like ‘bored now’, as if it’s the duty of others to entertain them.”
Dario Nardi, a neuroscientist who discovered how different MBTI functions correspond to certain areas of the brain, notes in his book “Neuroscience of Personality” that INFP is the only type who can listen with extreme attention and devotion. They literally take in and in and in and only then give feedback, with focus lasting much longer than any other type.
I find this to be very true from an experience with an INFP. Never met someone who was so talented at listening. Ironically, INFJs are often thought to be the epitome of good listening ability, Fe and all, but it is quite the reverse. Fe actually makes it HARDER from holding back and giving feedback right away. I find that my attention drifts away quite easily, too.
Anna, Nardi’s research is fascinating. I noticed this about INFP brains being very active in the listening region and I think this may be their “superpower.” Although, I cannot see ISFJs having that to the degree that INFPs do. Not that they are bad listeners, but they are more duty bound with “shoulds” permeating their thinking. I believe it is the stillness of the melancholy personality with the flowing nature of the phlegmatic personality that makes this possible. I heard these descriptions of the humours somewhere. I apologize for not remembering where, but liked the descriptions.
Hmm. Nice to think there is something good about being an INFP. I usually think it’s a wrong type to be. A useless way to be.
That is really interesting, about the INFP listening skill.
Have you ever heard the phrase “The opposite of talking is listening, but most of us are just waiting for our turn?” As an INFJ-ish type person, I really struggle with this. Like it is literally my main thing I am working on these days. To LISTEN. To talk less. To take in. To pause. To hear what someone is saying rather than jump to get out what is surging in my brain. I find it very hard!
I find that my attention easily drifts, also. Something someone will say easily sends me off in some other direction in my head. Something has to be intensely interesting for me to stay completely focused on what they’re saying in real time.
@Lunar – I don’t mean to talk you out of your feelings. But I often think that when people talk about INFJ stereotypes in positive ways, they are actually talking about INFP-type people. Stillness is so powerful and something almost everyone wrestles to achieve (if they can achieve it at all.)
Question for you and any other INFP people: how easy or hard is it for you to meditate?
SeeTheElephant, I haven’t tried too much to meditate. Just for a short period of time. Each morning for maybe 1-2 weeks a few years ago. I wasn’t sure exactly why I was doing it, but it prepped my brain well for the day. But it was perfect conditions:) There was an empty room in the building. Wooden floor, window was the whole wall. Nice view. I wasn’t working…. it was really nice. To stop and medidate in a chaotic environment or during the workweek would be harder for me.
@Lunar, watch your tongue!???? Dont ever talk about your type that way again. INFPs are perhaps the most lovely people I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing.
Todd good point! Sorry:)
Also I see how the phlegmatic bit in INFP personality would “soften” the melancholy just enough so that they can 1) keep up with everyday routine which may feel like HELL for an INFJ and 2) keep their independence and originality while being much nicer and accepting, and supporting.
I find the “Melancholic melancholic” thing so true, although Fe makes me look sanguine in my better times. INFJ just seems such a deceptive personality in this regard. The whole “self-sacrifice and acceptance” thing does not really work unless an INFJ has worked through their deep melancholic hell and figured out how to deal with it on a daily basis. Until then we literally may have no space to accommodate others problems.
Unlike an INFP, who, while embracing similar difficulties, has that innate flexibility built in.
Yeah. Hard and soft not just with respect to romance (which is definitely true), but as in degree of stubbornness/flexibility respectably. They have a bit more give.
I find daily life a good HELL as an INFP. Feeding myself, my kids, all those chores,… they are my death really.
Ok this is gonna sound fucked up but I think it paints a pretty good picture of hard romanticism, or at least what puberty does to you. When I was in high school it was during the times of the 9/11 attacks and when the whole world was on ‘terror alert’ even here in the UK, now kids being kids there were constant rumours flying around the place of terrorists being spotted, bomb threats or Iraqi fighter jets heading our way. Our school was in the middle of no where, set deep in the English countryside, farmer country basically so it was all clearly absurd.
But not to my overly active imagination. During class I would often drift off and fantasise about our school being attacked by a band of extremist terrorists and everyone being taken hostage, why? Because I had a crush on a girl of course, why else. As I sat in class in I would turn over this fairytale in my mind that it would be me, little quiet me, who would be the saviour, I would find a way to overcome the attackers and save the day much to the surprise of my contemporaries. Yet, and here’s the funny thing, I didn’t want to survive this ordeal, I didn’t want to be showered with praise and ticker tape with the wide eyed girl standing by my side. Instead I imagined taking a bullet, a bullet that would prove my undying love and cement myself in the minds of all as a martyr, eternity achieved, tick.
It’s the same reason I cry at the end of Gladiator not because the hero dies and Rome loses it’s opportunity of gaining a truely great emperor, but because Maximus did his duty and served his purpose so now he can let go of this earthly realm by the virtue of transcending the bonds that bind humanity to it. There’s something about that that just gets me all misty eyed.
Irony is in reality I think I would run a mile, I’m not that crazy geez!
Now compare that to when I was first confronted with ‘baby talk’ from an ex lover, “Eurgh, gettaway from me you witch!” Haha I can’t deal, makes my skin crawl.
I love this post. The contrast between the last paragraph and the rest is fantastic.
This is a great story. Baby talk makes my skin crawl too. Believe me, men do that too’! Instant erotic interlude buster. Just NO!
LOL Tom, and your classmates/teacher would never have guessed the madness in your head:)
That is a great story.
I, too, am deeply, personally, genuinely revolted by things that are “cutesy”, often, crazily, more than by things that are actually kinda terrible, where I am often able to find a sort of humanistic peace with the weakness of mankind. Ugh.
INFP here, I just checked my moon planetary aspects on my chart and I have a Moon Trine Neptune. 🙂 My moon is in Virgo though.
Ok, I had something interesting happen. I took the test that Rita posted and I got Melancholic, but in a close 2nd, I was tied for sanguine and choleric. I have excessively strong Mars in my birth chart. Blake assigned Mars as the planet for particular choleric. I have moderately strong Jupiter which is the planet assigned to particular sanguine. I think this is what Blake means by our birth chart can amend certain qualities of temperaments. Just curious if anyone else has found an example of this in their birth chart. Also, there’s a website, sorry don’t know the name, but if you google how strong is my, insert planet of choice, it will asks questions to measure the strength of planets. I found this helpful as a wide view of my chart. It was overwhelming for me to try to learn all the aspects of my chart in the beginning. This helped me with an overall feel of how much fire, water, etc. It also helped me learn the energy of each planet. Just a suggestion.
Michelle, I would appreciate it if you could find out what that site is that explains the strength of planets in your chart. I like astrology to a degree, but integrating all of these things seems difficult. In the end, I just feel like I get too diluted a look at my chart because this planet influences me in another way that is quite opposite from another. At some point, I just throw up my hands and roll my eyes and say “oh bullshit!” LOL
I took the test twice and both times came out predominantly Melancholy, which I already knew from studying the humours in the past, but because of some of the questions and the scaling aspects made it difficult for me to define exactly where I stood. I came out with a secondary Phlegmatic on one and secondary Choleric on another. I want definitive answers and life seems full of ambiguity and accepting that has always been difficult to swallow for me, so I keep picking nits.
ISTP=particular melancholic.
This is a new angle on the ISTP. I’ve always found ISTPs extremely interesting people with more than meets the eye.
https://skywriter.wordpress.com
Rita, I felt and still feel like that. I try not to think about does this cancel out that. I look at each aspect individually and take what truth I can from it and don’t get too hung up on anything else. Someday, maybe I’ll consult with Blake about a true reading. Until then, I get what I get out of it. I have excessive Mercury as well as Mars, so I can relate to over thinking things.
I wonder if any of you are familiar with Carol Tuttle? In case you are not, she does these “Dressing Your Truth” type books and videos. She has a store, does lectures, and writes books on types. The types are basically Sanguine (Type 1), Phlegmatic (Type 2), Choleric (Type 3), and Melancholy (Type 4). She wrote a book called “The Child Whisperer” about parenting the different types. Her profiling is based on facial features, body movements, voice, doodles, and tendencies. It is pretty interesting. I have a love/hate relationship with this stuff because I think some of it is quite right, but some is just wrong. Also, she does not credit the people from whom she borrowed or stole the system she uses. Anyway, a lot of her work is done for making females feel beautiful and honoring their type and not trying to fit themselves into a one fits all kind of standard for beauty, which I find a laudable goal. However, she talks a lot about personality and patterns of behavior. She has people dressing in colors that tell others who they are. The thing is, she makes the T4s (Melancholies) out to be some odd combination of NT/SJ. She makes the T2s out to be some kind of NF/SJ combination. The T3s are pretty straight up SJ and the T1s are pretty clearly SPs.
Then there is Helen Fisher, the anthropologist who talks about neurotransmitters and 4 types, which she calls Builder (SJ), Negotiator (NF), Director (NT) and Explorer (SP). She states that Builders are heavy in serotonin and they make up the largest proportion of the population (salt of the earth types). Builder/builder relationships, explorer/explorer (dopamine driven) relationships, and Negotiator/Director (Estrogen/Testosterone driven) relationships are recommended. She has some stuff about finger length and I cannot remember what all to determine your type, but it is primarily based on your personality and tendencies.
There is overlap in these systems, but I find there tends to be more confusion when it comes to Phlegmatics and Melancholies. Even the True Color test (Blue, Green, Orange, and Gold) seems designed to deal with the Humours, but the emotional Blues are considered NFs, while the Greens are considered NTs from what I read.
If you are interested, here is a link to Carol Tuttle’s stuff, but she has a lot of media presence beyond this. http://thecarolblog.com/energy-profile-free/
Helen Fisher type descriptions: https://digitalcitizen.ca/y/
Yes! I am (as with everything systems-related) both semi-obsessed with image systems like DYT (although I find DYT specifically not my thing) and obsessed with how wrong and shallow and inadequate they are.
Do you read any Kibbe? A ton of people use personal image systems that derive from him or from the older systems his material is based on – basically varying combinations of “yin’ and “yang” qualities that present in a certain visual style. I think there’s a lot of stuff that comes down to “Wear what you are”. I don’t really relate to any of the style ideas that claim that how someone presents tells you anything meaningful about how they _are_ internally, but I do think that dressing to match and amplify how you present can be very harmonizing (which may or may not be someone’s goal).
Yin/yang systems are often base-5 (for both male and female people, although I think men are often totally disinterested in this sort of stuff) – and have yang-leaning (bolder, edgier, more flamboyant, modern, linear) and yin-leaning (softer, lusher, more ornate, more curved or round) variants in each base type. I’m curious if any systems nerds see a way this relates to other systems they study: (the following is my shorthand, not any official anything – and I do think this is just how people SEEM, not how they are on the inside.)
Dramatic – most yang – bold, regal, striking, edgy. (I would guess Melancholic.)
Natural – asymmetric blend of yang and yin – organic, free/relaxed, unstudied, sensual. (I would guess Choleric-influenced.)
Classic – even blend of yang and yin – formal, traditional, restrained, planned. (I would guess Phlegmatic.)
Gamine – asymmetric blend of yang and yin – cute, playful, cheeky, dynamic. (I would guess Sanguine.)
Romantic – most yin – sumptuous, lush, elaborate, delicate. (I would guess Phlegmatic-influenced.)
??? Those are my probably totally wrong attempts to match up systems.
I have a lot of personal perfectionistic griping about how many people who have image systems or are into image systems are trying really hard to shove themselves into something that doesn’t feel right to the viewer. Kibbe, who claims that his ideas were formed in film and theater casting, comes for my money closest to grasping that there are many different types of presentation, and the key to being “attractive” (if that’s something you want) is to stop fighting the type other people are already stereotyping you as. But I think for a lot of people (women specifically) that becomes very threatening and complex because they have deep feelings about what is sexy and what is “feminine”.
I am embarrassed to notice how obsessed I am with systems. Geez. I’d never thought of it that way before. I’m systems-obsessed all the way down!
Do you read about color analysis? Some people who are into that write about color groupings having certain personality traits, and I find that quite highly questionable – I don’t know why I’m prepared to find MB plausible but the idea that someone who looks good in stark black and white has certain traits seems total pseudoscience nonsense to me. But I do believe that there is something deep and real about the way certain colors present to us on subconscious levels. ie I don’t think I believe that a Winter is a person with X traits, but I do think that we perceive high contrast levels between cool colors worn together as dramatic and sharp, and then make assumptions about the person wearing them – if the person wearing them does not also look dramatic and sharp to us, then I think we often subconsciously find that an uncomfortable mismatch.
I find this person to be the most serious and thoughtful writer on color analysis: https://12blueprints.com/
/rambling like hell
See the Elephant,
I totally get obsession with all things type. I am somewhat familiar with Kibbe, but I have not found my style with him. I am also familiar with the 4, 12, and 16 seasonal color analysis systems as it is truly an obsession of mine. I have wasted many many hours over the years with sites and books on the subject. I do love Christine Scamen of the 12Blueprints because she seems really knowledgeable and flexible and her writing is lyrical. I like her intuitive take on not only color, but the impressions that people who resonate with these colors impart to her. She is far more about color than personality, but she has definitely noted personalities within the variations of color and integrates that in her writing. It is funny that two people can look so alike in coloring, but put the drapes and fabrics against them and something begins to appear that differentiates them. I have enjoyed the celebrity typing that Lora Alexander does and appreciated her 16 seasons because I think I found myself in her expanded seasons. At least I think so. Anyway, I find it fun and exciting and keeps my mind whirring with question and discoveries along the way. I’m glad to be one of the super weird people. 😉 I enjoyed your “rambling” too.
More rambling like hell:
In color analysis, 12 Blueprints and similar systems, like sci/art, that I think are least BS and most real, break the seasons down into 12 total – one “true” season and two that are influenced by the seasons next door, as it were. Looking at Carol Tuttle’s images, it seems to me that her types match up with parent seasons and your humor attributions like so:
Type 1; bright, animated/new ideas, possibilities=Spring (Sanguine)
Type 2; soft, subtle/planning, details, calming=Summer (Phlegmatic)
Type 3; rich, dynamic/swift, action, practical=Autumn (Choleric)
Type 4; bold, striking/structured, exact, perfectionistic, =Winter (Melancholy)
I don’t know exactly how yin/yang types fit in there. Choleric seems most Yang to me and Phlegmatic most Yin? (I find yin/yang helpful in terms of thinking of things as a gradient.) But in color theory I think I would guess that Spring and Summer are more Yin and Autumn and Winter are more Yang?
So much pointless rambling from me! PS the Starling membership is totally worth it for the ability to ramble to other super weird people.
Assuming with no consistent basis that “particular” is the moon positioning, would a cancer-moon INFJ be INFP-esque and vice-versa? Would that make even a minor difference?
Or a pisces-moon INFP, I mean
Is it possible that a highly aspected neptune can cause someone to fall into the melancholy group even if that’s not consistent with their functioning stack according to the way its laid out here. I know someone who is an isfj but can seem very isfp due to a heavy dose of 10th house placements{being part of a group, then rejecting the group} he also has a lot of gemini {moon, venus, ceres, juno, and midheaven} and cancer {sun,mars, jupiter,} But his Neptune is so aspected that it makes him seem melancholic? Plus with saturn being ruler of the 10th house, it also lends in someway that Blake has not explained, that perhaps saturn has an influence into making him seem melaholic??? I don’t know, he is all over the place. I swear if he had any Ni {which he doesn’t} I would think he were an infj. He has this smothering, mothering Cancer thing that is like wearing a wet blanket, then he can be a complete reactive, abandoning, mean bully that rejects everything and everyone that he held so dear or not. It’s very isfp but his functioning stack doesn’t match. He is also very subtly manipulating and can turn other peoples thoughts and actions into evil. It is very secretive. He also has excessive pluto in his chart. He can also be funny and very smart and talented but he is soooo incredibly sensitive but in a very self centered way. Sensitive to his own feelings and reacting to others peoples feeling with complete indifference or apathy or letting his own empathetic impulses overrule his ability to be present for someone else in pain or need. Therefore, his own emotional needs become the focus and the other person is left feeling invisible or worse, like they have to suck it up, and help him balance. OOOOOOO, sorry this is obviously a therapeutic need not a temperament, or functioning, or astrological circumstance……well I guess not all of this is about a therapeutic need. I think the way people react to situations is a direct reflection of temperament, brain function and astrology. I can’t relate to any of this without a psychological aspect being woven into it. Maybe that’s just my flavor of infjness. So the question still remains, Can an isfj be a melancholic or is it other influences that give his phlegmatic temperament a strong melancholy flavor. He took the test and I know, all of these test are very subjective and based on self reporting, so accuracy is questionable. But I took the test for him also and got melancholy and I feel like I know him well. But I think maybe this test is heavy on the melancholy. I don’t know, maybe i’m just rambling. Anyone else have any thought or opinions or experiences like this with isfjs?
Is being a seeker or perfectionist a part of being melancholic? Do isfjs do this?
Michelle, it seems like one could be more than just 1 or 2 humors. Like melancholy could be a close tie with another. Just seems like there is likely to be one main humor. But following could be more than one humor. I think isfjs can be emotionally sensitive for sure.
Michelle, this ISFJ person sounds like an ISFP, but you say he has no Ni? Ni would be present if he were an ISFP. Oh my gosh, the smothering childish yet mothering drowning desperation of the ISFP. Add drug addiction and alcoholism and you defined one of the few people I had to resolutely and finally door slam. He was dear, soft, intelligent, creative, and beautifully devoid of reciprocity of feeling. He could appear empathetic, but any consistent reciprocity of feeling exchange was not there. He was a stalking, manipulative, full of promise that would dissipate like vapor upon approach. Uuuuggghhhhh. The ISFJs are smothering motherly too but more martyr like IMO. They can look like an INFJ in some ways but the guilty, tssssking, and shoulds and service make me just become frustrated and done too. They can be stable in action. I loved Blake’s apron string analogy for them. They often do not hold a hard line or establish any boundaries ever for themselves, but you know you are being entangled into obligation if you accept their kindnesses. An unhealthy ISFP lives in a world of endless need. The ISFJ lives in a world where you become enslaved by obligation. One operates like a creative and beautiful child whose needs are all consuming. The other operates as a mother whose soft (seeming) demands are shaming. In my mind at least. Now, I know there are healthy types of these folks and I am not hating on the SFs. In a crisis, give me the NT any day. They are a sharp slap and a cleansing shower, which is much kinder in a way, and can be helpful in reengaging your frontal lobe when you are in the amygdhala high jack stage of flight, fight, and freeze. That last part is borrowed from those who study the brain and not my own line.
OH my gosh, Rita you are fantastic. I love the way you write. The whole brain thing is right up my alley.
Rita The ISFJs are smothering motherly too but more martyr like IMO.
Yes, very much a martyr. But then it doesn’t quite stop there. He doesn’t have meltdowns but he constantly creates situations that cause me to have to step in and treat him like a child. He doesn’t follow through on things. But while he’s not following through he tells me I’m impossible to please. So if I don’t step in things get out of control but when I do step in, I’m impossible to please. The double bind is exhausting. He seems to also need people around all the time. Like he needs, its hard to explain, its very subtle, but he can’t just have a hobby and do it on his own, he needs to involve other people. And then he micromanages everyone so much that its no fun. I guess that’s a form of mothering and smothering. And yeah, when we all don’t appreciate how much effort he puts into the preferred things that he volunteers to do, then he’s a martyr. It’s always on his terms.
Rita They often do not hold a hard line or establish any boundaries ever for themselves, but you know you are being entangled into obligation if you accept their kindnesses.
Yes. He will not set a hard boundary for himself, but we all have to walk on eggshells at times around him. He definitely lets us know when he feels unappreciated but the only giving he does is on his terms. If we ask a lot of emotional stuff from him, he starts to break down, literally, sickness.
The only thing that seems isfp is the fact he wants to be a part of a group but he will abandon the group for not standing up to his high moral standard. And good luck even trying to understand what he considers a moral standard. Or he will abandon anyone that requires him to give things he doesn’t want to give. He doesn’t necessarily physically leave he just emotionally takes from people. That is very much how Blake describes the infj in love. Isfj also have an implied scorpio moon but they don’t or won’t ever look at themselves. Infjs can’t wait to destroy themselves it seems, but like Blake wrote, isfjs will turn away and not see their own “evil”
We are working on things but sometimes I just become exhausted and wonder if its really worth it.
Michelle,
Marriage is not for the faint of heart, no? It has a way of showing you who you are and test what you are both made of. “Double bind” — you definitely do study your psychological concepts, don’t you? 🙂 You guys are working on it so you probably have some ways of tolerating temperament differences. Do you find it helpful to think in terms of temperament and individual drives and needs when navigating your differences? Your awareness of your higher tolerance for diving into emotions and striving for change vs. his more risk averse tendency made me think maybe you do. It’s tough, but maybe worth it more days than not? I hope so.
Rita, we have an extroverted Blake (there is a recording of him somewhere thinking out loud). I am trying to guarantee a lack of mistakes….
So I can only see Ne or Fe as the dominant function. That’s my starting fork and it is from these three choices I must narrow down: enfp, entp, enfj.
Lunar, that is just crazy. I composing my response to you when you wrote this about the recording. I told you to listen to the recording. Great melancholy minds synchronizing.
I meant “I was composing….”
I remember that recording. He was stepping into and embodying extroversion as I recall to demonstrate the feel of it. Listen to his INTJ recording. It is a very heavy low energy recording. I think it was an INTJ recording. He is talking about Nietzsche I think. It is very different from the extrovert recording. See, I see him stepping into and trying on characters. INFJs do that. I think many are natural actors.
Interesting. OOOOOO why must all this be so interesting.
oookay. So I literally left the public space I was in and got into a car to listen to the recording that I hadn’t listened to in a long time, perhaps never even finished listening to. The first thing I noticed was the speech cadence. He speeds up and slows down very noticeably. Gonna think some more.
Lunar,
I agree that INFP is not a good fit. It is funny your mention of guilt about charging money and buying doughnuts and coffee. I don’t get the feeling that Blake loves that aspect of his site, but is pragmatic enough to know that is what he needs to do to give it the time and attention it requires. I think any type can learn marketing skills, but for some it is just much more natural. I’ve had to learn to charge and negotiate rates. Not my favorite piece of my business, but people are more invested if they have some stake in it. So, it is a two way gift exchange. Remember, you are as worthy as anyone to request what you need and don’t doubt you deserve it. I don’t. If an INFP says they are qualified, I believe it. They are not likely to say that lightly in my estimation.
Regarding whether or not we are Blake’s groupies, I found that thought exceedingly awful. I may be a groupie of his site, but I would cut myself off cold turkey if I thought I was a groupie of any one person. I simply refuse to allow that. I know you were joking, but it made me think. Shuddering at the image.
When I said I wanted more self disclosure from Blake, I did not necessarily mean he reveal his type. To do that might not be wise. I just meant some little personal tidbits. An age range that is in reason, a favorite guilty pleasure, or a part of the country he lives in. Just something that humanizes him a bit. It doesn’t really matter and it is his choice. He has his reasons. If we choose to get naked and reveal our faults and vulnerabilities while he remains behind a one way mirror fully clothed, that is our choice.
oh haha. yeah. I didn’t mean like cult or anything like that:) and we are mindless groupies, but I did wonder if there is Ne (or Fe?) mobilizing strength at display. Personally I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t get much out of if for learning’s sake and didn’t enjoy discovering that there are others who are into this too. I’ve loved it.
Lunar,
About your description for ENTP or ENFP, you said that Blake’s writing is “hilariously irreverent” which would point to ENTP and that you see ENFP when you consider how serious he is about his work without being too attached. I see ENTPs capable of taking their work very very seriously indeed. Despite their external levity, they are sharp and committed cookies when they are invested, well utilized, and at all valued. I gather this from talking to some on line and being married to one. I am co-owner with an ENFP and she seems absolutely flippant (she’s not) in comparison to the ENTPs about business. I get no sense of ENFP from Blake. They also seem to be pretty openly disclosing to a degree, which Blake is not at all (at least on his site).
By the way, I am not suggesting he is an ENTP either. I just meant that he has more of the flavor of an ENTP than he does an ENFP to me. I still maintain he is an INFJ, who is the least likely to be who you think he is. 😉
Okeee, so the recording reminds me of various people: my brother who is esfp or enfp (he tested enfp), an estp who has an online youtube series, and, …. Marc Maron.
Really reminds me of Marc Maron, from a pure speaking style point of view (completely ignoring content actual person).
Interesting. So, which recording reminds you of Marc Maron?
An ESTP is the shadow self of INFJ, is that right? Lucas states that INFJs should grow towards ESTP. I never heard that before, but that is a fascinating observation, Lunar. Hhhhmmm. I will check that out later. I don’t know what that may mean in terms of Blake and typing, but it is interesting.
Is Marc that white guy with warm blonde or maybe has strawberry colored blondish or lightish hair?
I just know him from radio.
the affilioabide recording.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL3JLR_D3H0
estp and entp talking
Oh, I tangled Marc Maron with the ESTP who discusses types on You Tube. What is the ESTP YouTubers name? I was looking for his videos but there are so many done by so many people.
marc maron does wtf
OK, here’s my two cents. I think Blake is an infj and nothing screams it more than his article INTJ ID Ti part 1. It is by far my favorite article on this sight because I feel like Blake reveals himself and all his Fe glory. He shows his passion and his deep love and appreciation of an unbelievably tragic story of Nietzsche. He holds nothing back and its fantastic. Also if you read the Bob Dylan gemini infj article, I think Blake shows some of the same style as Dylan in some of his articles. Also, no one has the ability to step into another person like an infj. The fact that he can write as a different personality says infj all the way. Read this part of the article on Bob Dylan and see if it reminds you of how Blake words thing sometimes.
Also, I want you to notice a characteristic way that INFJs use language. Notice the song, Queen Jane Approximately. We have a two words that are a proper noun and then as a little afterthought the word, “approximately”. The same thing is done with the song, Positively 4th Street, except in this case, the afterthought is used as a forethought. It’s not just 4th street, its positively 4th street. This type of thing is a totally INFJ thing. Dylan was a genius at being able to take a relatively pedestrian phrase and make it into this evocative coupling by adding one word. That’s a genius thing to be able to do.
The article also says this
The definitive vs. the descriptive. Introverted thinking vs. extraverted feeling. INFJs have a gift with using this axis in a back-and-forth, alternating manner to articulate the perceptions they are receiving via their introverted intuitive dominant function. Extraverted feeling leads, but introverted thinking follows as a natural opposite reaction. And INFJs need to not let it be the other way around. Or they will come to a standstill.
You know what go read the whole article for the full effect of what I’m seeing. Just my opinion.
Michelle! I have to say this…. just YESTERDAY, I was saying to my hubby… you know it’s the TI id of an INTJ article that gets me. I think you almost have to be infj to write it….. It is the most astounding article to me of the entire stellar maze. The Ti in the emotional content spot. And his whole description of it just made me think he is genius. Embodying a thinking concept. Etc. Crazy stuff. I felt like I was on drugs reading it.
I kid you not:)
Michelle thanks for your insight on this. The Ti Id article was as powerful as was the recording about INTJ. It was after reflection from the deep impression these pieces of work left on me that I surmised he is an INFJ. I joked with him that he has an INFJ sun with ENTP rising and an INTJ moon or something like that.
Also, since most INFJs here concur with Blake that we are selfish and many have suggested that is why we clutter the websites about type. Blake also suggests using Fe by writing or acting in the world. Well, Blake’s Stellar Maze site would be a fantastic example of this, no? The fact that most of his writing is about INFJ, but he removes himself just enough by making it mostly about women to identify the self without getting too caught up in the Fi Id of INFJ and because some degree of removal from ourselves is the only way INFJs seem to be able know ourselves. It is like reading a book with your nose pressed to it – it seems pulling back helps us to see and have perspective. So, writing about INFJs in general terms using the opposite gender and gathering clarity from responses from INFJ readers may unselfishly meet this selfish drive brilliantly.
So no one is detecting extraversion on the recordings? Maybe I’m wrong. I just thought I was hearing this complete ease at being the one that is doing the talking (which I know it IS a recording), but I thought there was a great ease there.
Yeah, extroverted feeling. One common all over the Internet thing that is said about INFJs that I believe is true is that we are the introverts who can seem extroverted. You would swear up and down that I am an extrovert when I am giving a presentation. You wouldn’t recognize my soft spoken, meek and mild looking self at these times. What you don’t see is the preparation, mental rehearsal, internal worrying dialogue, studying, and planning beforehand or the utter collapse at first opportunity afterwards. I am not saying that Blake did any of these things, but an INFJ can certainly extrovert beautifully.
The Ti in the Id recording. His response after he described the movie A.I. mirrored identically my own response to it. A lot of people flippantly spoke about what a flop that movie was and I was moved beyond words. I felt that I had been knifed and the wind and hope went out of my sails for days. That movie lingered with me too and to talk about it, I would have choked up just the same way.
Rita, infjs don’t usually come off extraverted to me. But that’s just me. But fairly smooth and inviting and warm more often than not.
Well Lunar, I think that is because you are astute. Most people only see the masks. My favorite therapist is an INFP. She has a way of allowing people to unfold, accepting, clarifies, and respects and honors the individual. She leads from behind to help people grow. It is an organic and gentle process. Tell me again how being an INFP is a useless way to be? Well developed INFPs are gifts to the world.
You may have had a different impression of Blake if he was giving a presentation in person. You may have seen or felt some cues that would show you whether his extroversion is true or not. Maybe most other people would not detect what you would in real time. Maybe?
Anyway, keep in mind that he mostly writes and has a few audio recordings about some information that he is passionate and knowledgeable about. In my mind, were he an ENFP or an ENTP, he would probably do more videos. If he were and ENTP/ENFP he would likely start on a site like his and then get bored or distracted or the site would turn into something completely different or be abandoned. He digs in deeply uncovering multiple variables to more thoroughly uncover or reveal MBTI truths as he envisions them. Also he is responsive to his readers questions and open to insights and may adjust but usually does not discard his premises. You said yourself that he starts with perspectives. Isn’t that the INFJ way? The INFJ lead function is a perspectives function.
Anyway, he stays private and mostly directly hidden. Yet he seems to have been spending a lifetime gathering data, information about people, enjoying books, poetry, music, and philosophy. All that points to introversion in general for me. Specifically, his interests seem most INFJish to me.
That is how I see it, but types can be argued from all angles and are. My INFJ may be your ENTP. They really aren’t worlds apart in some ways, so….. I could actually live with that. I already said I see him as an ENTPish INFJ. That is something else that makes me think Blake is an INFJ- he talks like that. He sees other types even in a type. I had automatically began going that way in my view of types too. So, when he wrote in the way I think, it just cinched me sticking around and made me pretty darn certain he is an INFJ.
Hi Rita, cool about your infp therapist. And your point about there being only 2 recordings is so true. Wish there were more:) Also you are an infj. I would think that gives you an advantage perhaps in infj detection so maybe you are right. So another way to say what I was saying would be that in the recordings alone, which are only 2 in number, he shares characteristics of speaking that I associate with both entp and estp. (exxp in general). There is overlap.
I must disagree, respectfully. Blake is very clearly an Ni and Te user to me. No Fe. So, INTJ. I’d bet money on it 🙂
Lml519 , can you give an idea of how you arrived at this. I am interested:)
Lunar, I feel like I’m sinking into a warm bubble bath as I read it. It’s sooooo good. It has all the things that make me gush. Okay, enough of that, I don’t want to be accused of being a groupie.
Rita, after I posted, all I could think was, who else is as obsessed with infj but another infj. I love your thoughts on this,
So, writing about INFJs in general terms using the opposite gender and gathering clarity from INFJ readers may unselfishly meet this selfish drive brilliantly.
Well said!
Thank you, Michelle. It is good to know that my taking over the comments was not completely irritating as I had feared.
Lunar, thank you for joining me in the discussion and fun. You always bring some interesting analysis to type discussions. I admire your Ne openness when searching for answers.
Lucas: “You see, that’s the funny thing about creating a virtual debate-based space filled with INFJs. Suddenly we’re all naked in the wilderness of collective unconscious trying to run away from our personal hells of action and embodiment. Isn’t that lovely?” — Perfect description of what we are all doing here. It is shamefully lovely and narcissistically avoidant 🙂 Well, I think that fits too.
Now, I must go leave this warm bubble bath and turn on the needle ice spray, dress and go out and do real world stuff. It has been a stellar journey through the collective unconscious in this bubble bath with you all!
Ditto Michelle’s comment that it is nice to know that the littering with comments hasn’t gotten too annoying. Obsession much?
I slept on it. After listening to the two recordings carefully, I think Blake is exxp. The energy I detect is extrovert energy. In the recording he sounds more like an extp, but I’ve also heard my exfp brother use a “harder” tone when donning a “teacher voice”. Not sure how likely that is here. I mean the voice in the recordings definitely sounds more like your stereotypical ti- slow and deliberate and “hard”. So entp, assuming Blake must be an intuitive. This entire time I’ve assumed that Blake must be an intuitive individual. It would be hilarious if all along he was a sensor and he is estp or esfp. The joke would be on us. Doesn’t seem terribly likely. So entp (with a close second guess of enfp).
And a third fun guess of estp:) Lol.
And a fourth guess that perhaps the extraversion is not extraversion but NT-style confidence (but not NF). There is a “hard confidence” in the voice.
So, does Ni dom+Fi tertiary=Fe esk Te. In the INTJ article, Blake definitely expressed his Fi feelings about Nietzsche. I guess what I’m asking is when an INTJ expresses a deep Fi mixed with Ni, does that resemble an Fe expression. I recently have considered my sister to be an INTJ. I’ve always felt like she was Ni dominant and we have a lot in common but we are also very different. She is not mutable and she doesn’t really care too much about accommodating other people. Even when she knows, she going to end up alienating herself by sticking to her own procedures. She makes life very hard on herself, it seems to me, because she won’t compromise….accommodate other people’s feelings or ego, whatever the case may be. She would rather be right than liked. Does that sound like an INTJ. She gets her feelings hurt because she KNOWS better ways of doing things but she lacks, what seems to me, an Fe ability to communicate these things in a softer mode. Then friends and coworkers end up not respecting her opinion, even though she is right, [she is right most of the time] because she’s so linear. Or maybe thats her Te superego [if she’s an infj] over compensating for her own insecurities. I’m trying to understand the different functions and how they look in different positions. I think I can see why you would say Blake has a Te expression over an Fe because he sometimes comes across as matter of fact, which to me is Te. But, take a look at the first paragraph of this article.
I’m going to stop beating around the bush here. I like to keep things as simple as possible. The INFJ and INFP types are so often confused with each other that I felt compelled to once and for all state what the primary categorical difference is between them, at least, by my lights.
The first sentence says he’s not going to beat around the bush. That’s Fe preparing the other person for some cold hard Ti facts. Then he is very strong in stating once and for all, only to be followed by, at least by my lights. Again, to me, that’s Fe softening and making his very strong bold statement palatable. I talk just like this. Maybe I’m miss understanding how Te expresses itself but I’m under the impression that Te just tells the truth no need to explain. You either like it or you don’t. Maybe he is an INTJ that has learned how to use a dash of his Fe superego in his writing to make it more palatable. Or maybe he’s just an INFJ that has learned to express himself openly and honestly in his writing but still understands how to use Fe to smooth over his passion and intensity. Or maybe I’m completely wrong about all of this.
As far as Blake being extraverted, hum…..I think an extrovert would make video recordings not just audio. And I think an audio recording screams infj. We like to be hidden but heard. Gosh the Wizard of Oz just popped in my head. Let me hide behind this curtain and pretend to be something I’m not, but still be the wisest person in the room?? I don’t know I’m rambling at this point.
Yeah no. I have to say you make good points:) I gave up on Blake’s type it’s really confusing when you don’t know the individual. It’s much more challenging.
Blake’s Se minimums advice was amazing. It works… makes an infp feel less neurotic. What I want to know, is, regardless of the type he is, how did he come up with this “minimums” concept? I don’t remember reading about anything like it anywhere. I mean I guess it comes from the ignoring function. But I don’t remember the ignoring function ever described as a special key to unlock a greater potential.
Although I cannot say for sure, my guess it is his own. After much study, he likely let it percolate and received it via Ni and used Fe and Ti to express, define, and refine it. Maybe not all in that order. Anyway, I am pretty sure it is his own take on MBTI and thought it would be helpful to others as well as himself.
Hi Rita, are you doing the Te minimums? Do you notice a greater psychic balance from it?
In my case, the Se minimums seem to trigger counter Ne flow that can carry me for hours. Not sure how it works, at times it feels more chemical than anything else. Right after a dance workout, I go into a flow state that is efficient compared to my other states. It doesn’t match efficiency of the highest order I suppose. But it is my personal best.
I think I had such a mini intuition in the back of my mind long ago in my 20s. I remember my istj mother trying to make me feel self-indulgent for going to the gym. I’ve had guilt wrapped around with taking time out for exercise ever since. But now it’s gone. I think of it as healthy now:)
I would like to know the 16 versions of minimums. For one, I’d share it with my intp husband immediately. And my kids one day.
In person, it is much easier to type.
For example, I am sensitive to Se as in it feels to me like a push and I am unable to push back unless I’m in some freakout mode, but those freakout modes are usually not in response to Se exactly I don’t think. So I can tell Se versus Si with relative ease. The Se push doesn’t feel the same way as steely Te. Although they have similarities.
Well the push is best detected when the person in question is a body moving talking in the same room. We have must all have antennas for this or something.
Agreed, that is a more holistic way of connecting with the person and not turning them into a collection of parts. We sometimes sound to me like this: his Ne is his accelerator, his Ti is his fuel line, and his Fi is sputtering and squealing when he applies his Te (brakes). Obviously, that is not a type or an exact analogy. It is just if I stay there too long I lose clarity and connection to the shared humanity and individual person. That may just be me though. Trust me, I am not throwing out these parts as non-essentials – they are important. I think I prefer thinking of the parts as a collection of characters.
My Fi id for instance, is a wounded rejected needy mewling dirty infant/toddler. I have met her at the bottom of a well as deep as an ocean trench – I have walked in as my own loving parent and picked her up and loved her and told her she was safe. The injuries and scars remain and are tender and this part has PTSD 🙂 but she has some functionality and is not so likely to lash out with endless needy awareness. I am only half joking about the part with PTSD, but it is something quite like that.
Anyway, Blake’s response to A.I. may be awareness and identification with some injured child part of himself – regardless of type and position of function. Like Michelle said somewhere no one gets out of childhood without wounds. We are all simply complicated beings. Blake is Blake and he has a type. We can agree on that!
Oh holy Mother of God! I have to go. Crap, I’m going to be late. My own damn fault and yours for being so interesting. Lol!
Rita, I love this. You are so right. I too think of myself like this. Many times I nurture that little girl inside me with as much parental love as I can. Somewhere I read about a therapy, I think its called internal family analysis, or something like that, where it talks about the different ego states of a person and relates them to an internal family system. SOOOO interesting!! I think of the different functions that way. I agree, Blake is a person and we do sometimes break it all down to different functions and I have thought about how I would feel if people were discussing me like this. CRINGE!!! Sorry Blake!! I mean it as a complete compliment. You’re so interesting!!
Rita, this: “My Fi id for instance, is a wounded rejected needy mewling dirty infant/toddler. ”
That is really interesting because I have a close infj relative who seems to have this as one of her internal family. What is interesting is that Fi and dirty don’t mix much for me, but I can see that it does somewhat for her. Our relationship has evolved to where I can understand this about her. I tend to explore internal states as my mode of operation, but I think for her it can seem so “icky” “needy” “psychologically unsound” something like that. It’s just a coloring to it that I don’t associate to dominant Fi so I wasn’t sure at first what was going on.
My Ni id must have a similar coloring in the eyes of others. What I don’t get though, is you seem aware of this Fi id as entity inside you kind of, whereas for the life of me I cannot figure out my Ni id. I have not made acquaintance with it that I know of.
Michelle, yes! Sorry Blake 🙁
Michelle, I will try a 3 part description:
my ego is the accepting adventurer
my id is the part that apprehends reality in fearful distortion…. shoot maybe we have made acquaintances and perhaps i know you too well….. shoot
my superego is (I wanna say reality smacking me in the face) the snapping fingers that make me snap out of it…. i really don’t know
Lunar, I can understand the confusion on the infj Fi being, well, I could describe it very descriptively but it makes me want to cry to talk about her that way, lets just say how Rita described it is accurate. For you Fi is the best of you. I can’t understand how Ni can be a negative, but your description above seems accurate. And yeah, the superego is that parental judging person. Well, in the right dose is a motivator, too much is a judgey bitch. At least in my head….. This is how I described in a different comment, I had a very stressful weekend and when I got home, weeelllll, let’s just say I indulged my Fi/Id/inner child, who was on the verge of a complete meltdown, with pizza and chocolate. I mean, I devoured 3 pieces of pizza and a huge candy bar in like 10 minutes. It was not a pretty site, afterwards, I started to say mean things to myself like, “I can’t believe you ate that. You’re getting too fat, You’re never fit into your summer clothes.” etc. Thats the superego over correcting my out of control Id. Anytime we get out of control or over indulge in something that should give pleasure {Id is also referred to as the pleasure principle} that’s more than likely your Id, the judgement of being out of control is the superego. At least thats the way I understand it.
The minimums part seems psychology based to me. The understanding of the ID and superego and how they each play and important role but a small role. Like in a movie, how a character with 5 lines can define or change or enhance a two hour movie. If a person can be defined as having three parts to make a whole. Then the ego is in the middle {what I called empathy in a different comment] Id is on the emotional side {compassion or light or love or yin] and the superego on the other side[judgement, dark, contempt, yang]. A balanced whole person will have just enough ID to be compassionate and just enough superego to be productive or logical. You can also look at it from an adult in the middle, child would be Id and critical parent superego. The pattern is the same. I think the really cool part to me is that he really looks at all 8 functions to make the whole MBTI system work. I never liked MBTI until I discovered another website where it was discussed as an 8 function system instead of four. Reminds me of color analysis, I used to be obsessed with it several years ago but I never fit into on season. After the discussion on here, I reluctantly, took another look and discovered I do fit into a bigger 12 or 16 system. Yaaaayyyy!! I fit in!! It happens so infrequently that I have to celebrate!
Michelle, This 3 part description (empathy, compassion, judgement) fits so well for infjs. Since your id is Fi, superego is Te, ego= NiFe.
I hate typos.
We are all sooooo much more than the sum of our parts!! Ok, I’m done……I think
lol:):)
Lunar,
It sounds like you have some familiarity with the Ni id after all, no? Like Michelle said, these things are too painful to go into deeply. I simply gave you the Clif Notes version that has none of the texture and only the surface of Truth of meeting your Id. I did not go directly there on purpose, but it has been a thread that has popped up throughout the course of my life and through relationships, writing, conversation, emotional ups and downs, therapy, and providing therapy for others — I found this locked in the 33rd basement floor this feral child resided and instead of running from her, I stepped into her from within and without. I won’t go into details, but let’s just say William Blake was quite right when he wrote”The Road of Excess Leads to the Palace of Wisdom.” Or maybe the old adage, “all roads lead to Rome.” I finally learned the hard way and arrived kicking and screaming to the realization that there is indeed “power in vulnerability.” I actually started saying that phrase to others about 10 years before I heard of Brene Brown. Interestingly enough to she and I are the same vintage. 😉 Sometimes, I think there are synchronicitous cosmic awarenesses that surface when the time is ripe and the individuals and populations are ready. So, there it is in a nutshell as best as I can or will explain here.
Michelle, Internal Family Systems Therapy is something my former clinical advisor brought up to me when I started referring to parts of people and used the phrase to describe a client’s “inner firefighter” who surfaces and instead of simply putting out a trash can fire, he goes all Carrie Nation and uses his hatchet and biggest firehouse and destroys the room and the family residing there while in this mode. I still haven’t studied the system, but I did find it intriguing and wonder now if the originator of this therapy system was an INFJ.
“power in vulnerability.”
This deserves a second post
Michelle, I regarding Typos. I hate them but leave them while cringing. My writing is full of them. I would do better to use a laptop rather than a phone or tablet. Going back and reading them before pressing reply would help, but I am not writing a research paper or submitting something in pristine form for all time’s sake. It is the meaning rather than the delivery that I keep reminding myself that matters. Letting go and trying to flow. I won’t critical parent you if you don’t critical parent me. Let’s not do that to ourselves either. Deal?
That’s a deal I will definitely make!!
🙂
OMG! “I regarding typos.” Ridiculous! Cringe laughing.
Blake,
I hope you are not too bothered by this string of discussion about your type here. I started it and I take responsibility for that. I think we put your parts back together again. 😉 That was unfair to discuss you without your permission. Are you offended? Or did you enjoy it and laugh and nod at times while shaking your head at other times? Feeling guilty but know that the intent was innocent.
speaking of…. infj is totally possible for Blake:) I can now see that too. Basically the less I tried (like when I gave up) the more I understood that I personally can’t tell type from writing:)
But I’m done with the endeavor of typing Blake.
What about the Supine temperament? I relate to that one the most, and type myself as an INFP
http://interpersonal-compatibility.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/supine-temperament-strengths-weaknesses.html
this is does really in depth about the temperaments: http://www.erictb.info/temperament1.html
Supine is just a variety of Phlegmatic as far as I have been able to ascertain. I do not recognize it as a separate temperament/humor.
Are INFJ’s and INFP’s both social chameleons? Do they both kind of change the way they speak when around different people and pick up energy and basically copy it and let it influence their mood? And if so do they have different ways of/reasons for doing this?
Also you’re so right, honestly the way people speak about functions just makes me quite confused and lost, and talking about it in terms of temperament and astrology is so much clearer to me! 🙂
Blake you need charts for your things it gets confusing. look at my chart I had to make:
http://solarcat.strawberryink.ca/images/stellarmaze.html
Labels subject to change depending on how compelling I think they are lol.
None of the astrological signs are concrete because I don’t know how each type is assigned a mutable or not as their dominating/healthy orientation. A lot of them are random guesses and I also ran out of time haha. This is like a bad sudoku puzzle.
@Prax
lol:) that’s Te!!
Your chart is so cool, Prax!
I’d been meaning to do something similar, but (as usual) my Ni’s best intentions were drowned in an ocean of Ti-procrastination. My Uni friends used to call this “faffing around”.
That’s why we need INTJs: to get shit done!
I’ve printed off your chart to study at my leisure when I get home from work. And yes, I admit I’m a full-on Astrology/MBTI nerd to get so excited over this…..
I am glad you find it useful if you do! I am still making changes as I figure it out, but I get tired and just want straight answers.
Were I a more rigorous a person, I would try to figure it out on my own based on random intuitions and Blake’s commentary littered throughout the site, but alas!
I am actually a pretty flaky person and my efforts come in spurts. I would rather just sit around reading and thinking about all the information but my soul hurts for organization. lol
That’s true for all types with dominant intuition: INFJ, INTJ, ENTP and ENFP. We’re all slaves to our fickle mistress’ bipolar whims. One day we feel enthusistic and full of inspired energy, then the next day the pendulum swings and its all we can do to drag ourselves out of bed!
I noticed that you’ve already updated your chart to show Sagittarius as the sign associated with INFJs dominant Ni instead of Leo (which belongs to INTJs)
Yes. I found a comment by Todd and a some of Blake’s comments listing some stuff.
My soul is not going to find peace until this is complete.
Why didn’t someone else.. do this first.. I am in pains. lol
Prax,
Wow! That is some Te excellence right there.
Yes! We are so “typist” lol:) Teehee.
I can’t remember where you wrote that infps need constant reminder of impression. But I get it now. I think that is why long distance relationship was hard for me but worked so well for him (infj). When we’d meet up again I’d make quite a big deal out of meeting up again. Whereas he was probably close to his desired frequency which explains the lack of inconveniencing himself in any practical ways. It’s the impression I have now. You see things in a new light and are just glad you’re not together anymore. A little girlfriend on the side in between masterpiecing is what that one evolved into. Yuck.