“The whole world is bullshit.”
That statement pretty much sums up the gist of the Fi Scorpio id of INFJ. This theme is more or less seen throughout many of the literary works of some of the greatest INFJ writers and the fictional characters they create.
We have such names as Shakespeare’s Hamlet, Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Underground Man, J.D. Salinger, Bob Dylan, Roger Waters, and Nick Cave.
Well, let’s look at the most famous monologue from the mouth of the most famous literary character in history – Hamlet.
Yeah, the “to be or not to be” bit.
Here we go!
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, ’tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there’s the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law’s delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover’d country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.–Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember’d.
I’ll paraphrase for the Un-Middle-English inclined:
Why would anyone want to exist in this world with all its heartbreak, deceit, and injustice? Would it not be better just to die, and put an end to all this ungodly bullshit?
But, what prevents us from shuffling off this mortal coil (killing ourselves)?
Well, that we don’t know where we are going to go when we kill ourselves and since no one has ever returned from the land of the dead to tell us about it, this makes us just put up with the bullshit the way it is rather than to kill ourselves and possibly go to a land of even greater bullshit.
Thus, we are cowards on top of everything else because we aren’t willing to take the chance to see if there is something better.
Because, god knows, living here is highly untenable.
OK, there is more to it than that and you definitely should read Hamlet for yourself because it is truly one of the greatest works of English literature ever produced. It is a story to ponder. There are no easy answers.
If you don’t know anything about the story of Hamlet, it’s basically about this prince of Denmark (that would be Hamlet himself) whose father has died. That’s how the play opens.
Hamlet, a very sensitive and intelligent young man, is in a state of immense grief at his father’s death. He is normally a very active and studious young lad, but, due to his father’s death, he has been thrown back on himself and now is questioning the whole of existence. Things like the nature of women, the nature of the world, the nature of his uncle who has ascended to the thrown in his father’s place, his own nature and in short, just a bunch of shit.
Hamlet is DEFINITELY an archetypal INFJ character. I could hardly think of a more INFJ character than Hamlet. In short, if Hamlet is not an INFJ, I don’t know what an INFJ is. That’s how INFJ he is.
I mean, this is an Ni dominant type of dude. He spends all his time philosophizing and forestalling action. He ponders over the significance of each of the actions he could take in regards to the presented problem – he finds out that his uncle, Claudius, has killed his father and so now he should be moving to correct the farce of this murderer ascending to the throne.
Hamlet has suspected that “there is something rotten in the state of Denmark”, which means that when he finds out that his uncle has killed his father (from his father’s ghost), he realizes that he had known that all along deep inside. That’s the Fi id of INFJ for you – knowing something all along deep down, but, it’s not quite getting admitted into consciousness.
The tragedy of Hamlet is that precisely because he is so sensitive and philosophical that he cannot bring himself to murder Claudius because it might cause all kinds of other things to happen that are undesirable.
That’s Ni dominance for you – always pondering over what would happen if you did x thing.
I mean, if Hamlet were an Se dominant type, this play would have been over in about 5 minutes.
But, no, it goes on and on mostly in showing us the operations of Hamlet’s mind as he philosophizes about various emotional quandaries, which are in classical Ni fashion, extended to the whole of the world.
For example, Hamlet is disillusioned with his queen mother because she has so quickly gotten over her grief for his dead father (her dead husband) and quickly remarried Claudius as if nothing has happened. From this comes the classic “O frailty, thy name is woman” line from another one of Hamlet’s famous monologues which starts with his own deep emotions about this mother’s behavior in this particular situation and ends by extending this flawed character trait in his mother to the whole of womankind.
That is Fi id in INFJ. Negative emotions being used as a base from which to philosophize (Ni dominance).
Hamlet is basically an INFJ character in the throes of Fi id throughout the whole play. This means that the id has assumed control of his ego and is now running the show.
Hamlet’s character is basically taking his deep grief at this father’s death and using that as a base from which to slander and curse the whole world as a big stinking pile of bullshit that doesn’t amount to diddly-dick. And on top of that, he is such a coward because he can’t bring himself to just end it all. So, not only is the world a big pile of corruption and bullshit, so is he.
INFJs in the throes of the Fi id never leave themselves out of the accusation.
So, in addition to “the world is bullshit”, there is also the final conclusion of “and I am shit too”.
How generous of INFJs not to exempt themselves from onerousness in this whole charade!
And dare I say that all this negativity of emotional valuation is highly positive for INFJs?
I mean, yes, this is the positive version of the id for INFJ.
Because, there is also the other side of the Fi id for INFJ and that is the Pisces version of Fi.
And an INFJ can’t do shit from that place.
What I’m saying is that even though Fi Scorpio is negative in orientation, for INFJ this is a highly positive and productive negativity. It gets things done. It motivates.
For example, it gave Bob Dylan a whole career. Where would Dylan have been without his Fi Scorpio negative valuations?
Hey, just take what is arguably the first song that started the whole rock thing, Dylan’s song Like a Rolling Stone.
In that song, he is basically doing the same thing emotionally to the woman protagonist (Miss Lonely) that Hamlet does to Ophelia in the Shakespeare play – he psychologically penetrates her and bashes her around and basically reduces her to rubble.
How doth it feel my lady? To be on your own, with no direction home, completely unknown. In short, no one cares about your misery so you better learn how to live in the wake of your shattered innocence.
You see, much of the MBTI community seems to be under the impression that INFJs are some kind of rare species of angel that has descended from heaven with the sole intent of saving a suffering humanity.
Um, well no, because INFJs are human beings living the human experience the same as everyone else. And they are some deeply feeling and supernaturally sensitive creatures, but, it is this very sensitivity that can make them just the way it makes someone like Hamlet or Bob Dylan – by conventional standards – negative assholes. Or as Kurt Cobain said about himself in song of same name, a negative creep.
And it is precisely because an INFJ lives in THIS WORLD that they are this way. Because, yes, if they were in some other more perfect world, I don’t think there would be any Fi id at all.
It is possible that the id is primarily a reaction to incarnation in the earth realm.
It seems that it is INFJ’s special prerogative as a type to deeply experience the dregs and heartbreak of human experience so that they may express it in some way. Which means, that they are quite likely not to be nice, maybe even to be incapable of being nice (See Dostoevsky’s Notes From the Underground where this is the main character’s final realization about himself – that he can’t be nice).
And it is precisely this moment that an INFJ says to themselves “now, I will not be nice”, that they may actually be getting somewhere.
You see, this Scorpio Fi id I speak of is not here to be nice. That’s actually the other side of the Fi id I was alluding to earlier – Fi Pisces. Yes, when an INFJ is in their deep id, the id where they are totally helpless and full of love and compassion for all that suffers, that is when they are the nicest and most empathetic creature around…but, totally fucking helpless.
So, no good really.
Better to tough it out with the hell of Scorpio.
Here is where INFJs are going to be administering some stings. Waking people up. Tough love.
But, only if those people have the temerity to be wanting to get close to said INFJ.
INFJs, as a general rule, give people a wide berth. But, if you, of your own volition, for whatever crazy reason on earth, try to get close to one of these Fi Scorpio id INFJs, you gonna be in for a time.
Why?
Well, it’s the fault of the world. If the world wasn’t so damn heartbreaking, then, an INFJ would have no desire to throw poison and bile at it. And you my dear, are a member of the world, are you not?
First rule: No one is innocent.
Now, if we are talking Fi Pisces id of INFJ, that is a whole other story. Yes, that is where you will see some of the finest degrees of empathy and love for humanity. This is the very origin of the poetic impulse. Love. Unconditional love. “Trembling with tenderness”. An unbearable love and tenderness that makes one want to contort and dissolve.
We might see such people as the following on this Fi Pisces id trip:
Hey, you know what, just check out Nick Drake.
Listen to his music. I think that will give an accurate feel for an INFJ of the more gently melancholic variety.
Maybe, some Jeff Buckley too.
Eh, stock up on some Leonard Cohen too. Actually, just check out the song Hallelujah with special attention paid to the lyrics (Jeff Buckley covered this song. Coincidence? Me thinks not.) It’s a song about a realization about the nature of love.
Nick Drake’s albums seem to give the best feel for an INFJ Fi Pisces id with all other functions reduced to a minimum.
It’s gentle, melancholic, dreary, gloomy, slightly charming and whimsical, monotonous, borderline mute, and just gives the feeling of going downstream on some dark river trip that will eventually lead to total cessation and exhaustion of all impulses.
Ugh, the humanity.
Now compare those guys with Mr. Nick Cave, a much more Fi Scorpio id type of INFJ.
Feel the difference?
I’ll get more into this Fi Pisces side of INFJ id in another installment.
For now, I must take leave because this shit is getting too depressing 🙂
Fucking Leonard Cohen…
Oy vey.
If you need help with any of the INFJ issues outlined in this article, consider consulting with me. I have been helping INFJ’s since 2015 find their way in a world not made for them.
Since the world is shit and that we include ourselves, I wonder if when our cowardice is exhausted our last moments will sound like this: http://youtu.be/miLV0o4AhE4
It has the sound of Pisces Moon (maybe). I will let the wisdom of your words sink in. I apologize if this song is like handing out razor blades when we are already contemplating opening a vein from being overly Idified. This is one of the most beautiful melancholic songs in my opinion.
To be clear, I am not referring to being suicidal, but rather that moment when we truly shuffle off the shackles of this mortal coil and accept death as an inevitable release. In the song, she does not know what awaits but asks for protection from a celestial mother and asking for no tears from her mortal mother. She is in this moment accepting her fate. Or so it seems to me.
I can’t say this is Pisces moon stuff, but seems as if this might be something of it. It is present after you pass through the Scorpio moon of internal protest of the venom and poison of the world and the rottenness of it all including us. Here there is a letting up of all turmoil and releasing to the inevitable letting go of all earthly chaos and even the fear of the unknown is becoming more acceptable in these last moments. I don’t know, but I wonder if this is it.
It rings true to me.
Perhaps INFJs are not necessarily “descended” angels, rather they are “fallen” angels?
So, INFJs…
Ni Dominance is like the Freudian ego. (right?) Scorpio Fi id can be (are) negative fucking feelings, but positive because they drive the INFJs to do things, make things, change things. (And since ids are present at birth, and INFJs have both Pisces and Scorpio ids (???) they are heaven and hell in one package?) Pisces Fi id is lazy and loving – drifting peacefully. And an auxiliary for an INFJ is Fe or is that just dependent on the person? But wait, it is, right? -Cause all of the art that is resulted from sublimation of said crazy ass ids, is Fe, right?
Just some things I’m trying to clarify. I am trying so hard to understand all of this.
Thank goodness I don’t have a type! Phew!
Oh, lovely music. Thank you for sharing.
Perhaps INFJs are not necessarily “descended” angels, rather they are “fallen” angels?
Yes, like Lucifer, the “light-bearer”. With INFJs, it is always Heaven AND Hell. I see the Hell part missing from all the major descriptions. Just doing my duty to correct this fallacy.
Ni Dominance is like the Freudian ego. (right?)
The dominant function for any type is like the Freudian ego, yes. But, not just Ni dominance, any dominant function orients the ego in the way Freud used the term “ego”. I mean, hell, he came up with the term “ego” in the psychoanalytic sense. “Ego” is Greek for “I am” or “I exist”. So, the “ego” is the “I am” principle. What am I as distinct from world?
Scorpio Fi id can be (are) negative fucking feelings, but positive because they drive the INFJs to do things, make things, change things.
Yeah, more or less that’s what I’m getting at. I think I should also like to say that these “negative fucking feelings” have been devalued and negated in our current pristine culture, which is, ironically, why there is more soul sickness than ever. It is precisely these id-like feelings, which have the power to give birth to a very healthy culture such as Nietzsche noted in the Ancient Greeks due to their creation and celebration of the Dionysian and the Tragic. Shit, read the Birth of Tragedy. It’s all there. However, pretending that these things don’t exist is a guaranteed recipe for sickness.
(And since ids are present at birth, and INFJs have both Pisces and Scorpio ids (???) they are heaven and hell in one package?)
Yes, INFJs have an Fi id. There are two forms of Fi (by my lights) – the entire sign of Scorpio is Fi (what may be termed “hard Fi”) and Pisces, being a mutable sign, is ambiverse such that I assign the first half of Pisces to Fi and the latter half to Fe. So, the first half of the sign of Pisces represents the “negative” “deeper” and “passive” id of INFJ. So, yes, INFJs have the total Fi id package at birth. So, I hypothesize.
Are they heaven and hell in one package solely because of this combined Scorpio and Pisces Fi id?
No, they are most heavenly because of the implications of their Aquarian Ti in combination with their intuitive nature.
What this means is the Yeat’s quote from his poem The Second Coming – “The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity”.
Heaven is the lack of all conviction. Hell is passionate intensity.
Aquarius is the astrological sign that indicates The Angel.
However, I think the angelic is often poorly understood (like so many other things). Angels have no conviction. They are beyond all passion and desire. They don’t even have “feelings” in the sense that most humans think of those things. But, it is just because of this lack of feeling (or preference) that they are angelic. Myers-Briggs says about as much about the feeling function – it indicates “like” or “dislike” for someone or something, and hence, is used as a judging function to make decisions and arrive at closure on people, places, and situations.
An Aquarian (an angel) would not ask themselves whether they “like” or “dislike” some person, place, or situation, they would simply act according to the dispassionate and unconvinced “truth” of things. It makes no difference to an angel if they like or dislike you. They feel neither. They operate according to principle. If you call to them, they will come. But, with indifference and clarity.
And yes, I think that an INFJ has this particular struggle between the heavenly and the hellish worlds such that they might be the very sort of archetype that rebels against god and is cast out of heaven on that account. We must remember that angels do not have free will. Humans do. And boy does the latter suffer on that account. But, they are also “free”. A human is free to be out of the presence of god if they so choose. They are free to experience passion and longing and all manner of desire.
Angels are desireless. They lack all conviction. Hmm. Something to ponder.
And an auxiliary for an INFJ is Fe or is that just dependent on the person? But wait, it is, right?
All INFJs have auxiliary Fe. ISFJ is the other type that has auxiliary Fe. Those are the only two types that have Fe in the auxiliary position. However, since there are two forms to every function (by my lights), INFJs have more Pisces Fe (latter half of the sign of Pisces) and ISFJs haver more Cancer Fe (the whole of the sign of Cancer is Fe, by my lights).
Cause all of the art that is resulted from sublimation of said crazy ass ids, is Fe, right?
That is simplistically true, however, I gave the example of artist Nick Drake who I think is an excellent example of an INFJ who is making art that is almost wholly showing the Fi Pisces id of INFJ with all the other functions reduced to a minimum.
So, there will be some INFJs who have over-the-top Fe and others who show very little Fe. Over-the-top Fe often looks like a profusion of imagery being expressed either via words or sounds or…well, in actual images. Check out the visual artist Basquiat if you want to see an INFJ using hyperbolic Fe. It’s very colorful!
Generally speaking, the more an INFJ uses their auxiliary Fe, the more pleasing their expression will be to the general public. It will have a wider appeal. The more id-like their expression is, the more it will appeal to a small intimate few. Nick Drake, for example, is largely unheard of. He has that very quiet, almost whispered expression that you can barely hear. Very intimate and personal.
Thank goodness I don’t have a type! Phew!
Amen to that!
[An Aquarian (an angel) would not ask themselves whether they “like” or “dislike” some person, place, or situation, they would simply act according to the dispassionate and unconvinced “truth” of things.]
It is remarkable how close that is to teachings of desert fathers, who claimed one must reach state of passionlessness/dispassion (apatheia) as necessary step towards theoria (contemplation in Latin), highest state of mind one can achieve.
Are you saying you don’t have a myers briggs type?
And in that case, an INFJ born under Aquarius would…
(When pouring water is a sign of Air!)
PS: After longing for a long time I subscribed, and lit upon your Starling-locked notes. I tried the morning pages in earnest for the first time today (pursuant, of course, to other stars aligning… letters from a romantic friendship). Thank you for the clear advice.
PPS: I would be very interested to read your thorough reflections on the star signs, and more of the prose poems about other MBTI types.
You can understand yourself by looking at your self, or by knowing the other wanderers. If you devote your life to a technical explanation of your mother’s navel, it allows you to rot over in inaction. Her navel is hers. These things are blurry for her children: too close to see.
Well, that’s just great! I’ve already got Hitler and Bin Laden on my celebrity types page, now I’m a Luciferian fallen angel!?! Actually, Blake’s comment rings frighteningly true to me. Throughout my life, I’ve typically been angelically well behaved, and had a nice placid exterior. This is crap, really. Inside, all I really am is burning, passionate intensity, and I’ve frightened some people when it spilled out in my past. As I age, i realize that the more I accept that truth about myself and learn to express it, the happier and more confident I become. On another note, I’m a bit artistic, and write some songs and poems. Sometimes, it’s almost like I go into a trance like state, and don’t even know what I’m writing until I’m done. As I think about it, I have referenced fire and burning in a LOT of what I’ve written. And then, I don’t feel like I’m evil. There’s this feeling that I have that I’d be perfectly willing to die for the sake of others, just because they’re human, and therefore beautiful. Maniacs, us INFJ’s are.
Wow. Letting the flavors seep in…
Thanks for the article Blake.
It’s interesting that everyone you describe musically as an INFJ, I would consider INFP. (With the exception of Kurt Cobain) Maybe I simplistically prescribe melancholy to INFPs. But on that note, what do you think of Elliot Smith?
Also, do you think types resonates more with their own type? For example liking INFJ musicians would imply the person is more likely to be INFJ? Or is this assumption too reductive?
From my first impression of Elliot Smith (just watched two songs on Youtube), he strikes me as Fi Pisces id type of INFJ, similar to Nick Drake. Quiet, moody, pensive, dreary, beautiful, muted, tortured and so on. In that vein.
I don’t know if types resonate most with their own type. It probaly does depend on what type you are talking about.
For example, do INFJs resonate with their own type the most? Eh, probaly. I think I have noticed that INFJs tend to gravitate most towards INFJ artists. But, then again, I think a lot of the best artists are INFJs. And so doth everyone else, even if they don’t know it.
I think it is reductive obviously, but, so is this whole 16 types system. Can’t get away from that.
INFJs obviously don’t gravitate towards Miley Cyrus or Justin Beiber, yet, someone is listening to these people and making them famous. Don’t think it’s INFJs.
“Nice” is a running joke in my family. It is far and away my ESFP mother’s favourite word, and was quite probably one of the very first words I learned as an infant. Mum is a classic extravert in many ways: she mostly thinks out loud; usually in the form of a continuously running narrative on the day-to-day minutiae of daily life. Because she’s the only Extravert in our immediate family, her narrative essentially became a monologue – the rest of us introverts soon learned how to tune out the constant background chatter until it became nothing more than a gentle hum of Sensing factoids with the occasional Fi judgements thrown in.
My brother and I bond by poking gentle fun at Mum’s overuse of the word “nice”, which she used, I suspect to express her Fi auxiliary . To give you the general idea, here is a very small selection:
We had such a nice meal.
You look nice.
That’s not very nice.
The weather is so nice today.
I met a nice lady today.
Be nice children please.
If you’re very nice today you can have a treat later.
You must always be nice to others.
The downside for us kids is that the importance of being “nice” formed a major part of our early parental imprinting, one that we both struggle with to this day.
For myself, this served to accentuate the classic Ni/Fe dichotomy that so many INFJs struggle with in our society. My nascent Fe’s original prime directive was to project the illusion of “niceness” to the outside world at all times and I became very good at doing this. However, in my heart-of-hearts, a part of me has always known that my true self is actually not very nice at all (at least in the way my mother defined “nice”).
Cue years of inner conflict, codependency and passive-aggressiveness, before I finally began to accept who I really was. This in turn allowed me to gradually loosen up the compulsive need to be seen as “nice” all the time, in order to present a more authentic persona to the outside world.
Still a work in progress, I’m afraid (as I’m still generally described as a “nice person” by casual acquaintances) but I can now choose to turn off the niceness when it is no longer appropriate. It may be hard for non INF-types to appreciate just how fucking good it feels for us to be able to unleash a blast of genuine, non-nice, anger, frustration, criticism, despair or sheer outrage at this horrible, crapsack world we live in!
“but I can now choose to turn off the niceness when it is no longer appropriate….”
Yes. Yes! Me too. And we can either express it with extreme disarming clarity and eloquence or even not say anything as INFJs and let them feel the discomfort of the “not nice” dissipating off of you. That feeling’s not nice for them, lol!
Nice!
Stewart,
Yes, that pressure to be “nice” is quite familiar. These days I try to choose kind over nice. Nice is knee jerk relational soothing, but kind is not always nice. I think of being kind as a little more truthful, present, and authentic. I don’t always get it right, but I am a lot more real and less depleted. Like you, I’m also a work in progress. In fact, I should have my own orange cones because I’m forever under construction. Lol
@ Rita, “In fact, I should have my own orange cones because I’m forever under construction.” That is hilarious! Perfect! And yes to kind and not necessarily nice. I am rather distressed that it has taken me so long to realize the disappointing messiness I’ve been creating for myself with this form of Fe. And regretful that I’ve given so little time and effort to my creative Fe.
@ Stewart, I’ve had a similar experience with expectations to be ‘nice’ and the overuse of harmonious Fe, but have tried to explain twice and deleted. I’ll try to sort it into words, it just feels so pathetic.
These days I strive for “compassionate” instead of “nice”. Its similar to how you describe “kind”, Rita, in that being compassionate requires more present moment awareness and authenticity. It’s the perfect antidote to the knee-jerk niceness and allows me to express genuine emotions without getting caught up in them and overwhelmed.
When I left the UK for good to move to New Zealand, I found that accessing the compassionate mode allowed me to distinguish my true friends from mere acquaintances. When saying goodbye to a dear friend I felt a warm sensation arise in my heart, and I realized in that moment that I truly cared for that person. When this feeling was absent it signified that the relationship had been on a more superficial level. Over the years since then, the true friends have stayed in touch, whereas I can hardly remember some of the others!
Maybe this was an example of the positive form of Fi expression that Blake has been talking about, or I suppose it could be a higher form of Fe, or maybe even a bit of both?
Stewart,
You are a man after my own heart. No, I’m not flirting ;-), but I am gaga about the idea of NZ. I’ve never been there but have said that if I won the lottery or could find a way I’d move there sight unseen. Life should not exist above 80 (26C?) degrees. Well, unless you can spend your days sea side. It is beautiful there. It is the home of the creation of narrative therapy, which is a personal favorite of mine. I’ve read about the culture of independence but shared responsibility. I know I’m idealizing, but it sounds creative and good. Not so consumer driven. Right now, I’d live in a cardboard box in Seattle. Well, maybe not quite. I do exaggerate. Somehow my ENTP hubby does not seem so inclined. Darn it. Sun and heat have always dampened my mood. Reverse SAD! Give me gray skies and cool misty air any day. I might even don a red dress and flounce around! LOL!
“INFJs in the throes of the Fi id never leave themselves out of the accusation.
So, in addition to “the world is bullshit”, there is also the final conclusion of “and I am shit too”.”
You really know your INFJ Blake 😛
I finally get it.. It all starts with the pisces id.. It’s that shit which leads to all that pain, which, if you’re lucky, triggers scorpio id.. Pisces id is all those broken people i’ve loved.. All the excuses i’ve made for their selfishness.. In the hope that maybe it’ll help them see and be the people they have the potential to be (how vain!).. It’s got a lot of capacity.. Like Thom Yorke sings.. “true love waits in haunted attics.. and true love lives on lollipops and crisps”.. But, does that unconditional love really arise from a selfless place.. It’s not without expectation.. Is anything without expectation? It does not expect reflection, but, atleast some luminance to warm itself in? Is it so hard to just be a decent person? But people.. They take and take and take while you’re giving.. And then they fuck you over.. This pisces id makes me useless because it leaves me pining and withering away when it does not meet its equal.. How it longs.. Waiting in the shadows to be noticed.. And it never is noticed.. And it hurts more when it’s noticed but belittled.. When this has happened too many times.. You end up thinking.. What’s the point of it all? I’m not going to change anything.. i can’t be inside someone else and make them feel whole and okay.. And they can’t be inside me.. And most people don’t want that.. Cause it’s scary shit.. And then the guilt.. Who am i to expect or exact change? I’m not perfect and i don’t know it all.. I am selfish too.. The guilt.. The guilt.. So.. Just kill the heart in your heart and let it beat to keep you alive.. Let the paralyzing questions go unanswered.. Why can’t everyone just understand and love each other? Why should one man have what’s denied to another just because of the precise randomness of birth and fate? The unfairness of this world.. And that stupid little heart which can feel it all and can do nothing about.. It’s not meant to.. We are nothing but tiny letters of a celestial printing press rapidly clack-clacking ourselves into oblivion.. What’s our terribly tiny tale? There’s no better or worse or right or wrong.. It just is.. A story of self-destruction written by us but not written by us.. And then I can taste the bitterness.. The pointlessness and unfairness of everything.. And i am everything and nothing just like everything is me and so much more and so much less.. And then i am scorpio id and introverted intuition and i love and hate extraverted sensation and i am so much more and less than that.. But is it right to subject those who are busying themselves with the business of being happy with all this negativity? I can but should i? For now I will help them remain shiny happy people even when sadness threatens them with its shadows.. Guilt is a fuck all theme with INFJs.. And well also because I’m not always this cauldron of poisoned Veritaserum..
The underground man.. His brilliance and pain and self-loathing and self-absorption really spoke to me.. It also made me think.. Why most of what we end up admiring (in a deep sense) is just other people being different shades of us.. Is it really about connecting or is it about standing out to ourselves? Seeing the good in others, that we have a harder time seeing in ourselves.. But what about what isn’t good? When i read notes from the underground.. I was nodding my head and rooting for him all through part 1.. And i was so proud of being able to relate to this genius.. And then in part 2 i was like wait.. He’s annoying and vain and selfish and pitiable.. But the more i thought about it the more i realised that i am sort of all those things too.. There’s so much of ourselves that we turn a blind eye to.. Or accept as a fair enough trade-off for the pain we feel.. But is it really?
And i love some of the artistes you’ve mentioned here.. I think Leonard Cohen’s Avalance, from Songs of Love and Hate (man that album title.. Isn’t it like dark side vs light side? 🙂 ), is another Scorpio id song..
Jeff Buckley is INFJ? Should have guessed.. The way he sings “Love is not a victory march.. Its a cold and its a broken Hallelujah”.. And it’s interesting how his version of Lilac Wine is so very different from Nina Simone’s.. And also how Miley Cyrus recently sang it in her ESFP way.. We could do a whole analyse the type based on song covers thing.. It probably wouldn’t always make much sense though.. (PS : I find his dad, Tim Buckley, yummy.. His Happy Sad was quite something..)
Also.. Emily Bronte.. Is she INFJ or INFP? Wuthering Heights affected me.. Like really really affected me.. There’s a lot of id in that book.. But is it Fi or Ni id?
Wuthering Heights! It affected me as well. It apparently affected Kate Bush, who is an INTJ by Blake’s account.
“You had a temper like my jealousy; too hot too greedy. How could you leave me, when I needed to possess you? I hated you. I loved you, too”
Love on the edge of madness and obsession.
Digging up a corpse to have a moment with the object of your obsession . Testing the limits of your beloved. Obsessive pining that knows no boundaries and goes beyond death.
Well, whatever it is it is not driven from a place of rationality. It is all consuming and destructive and the collateral damage means nothing. Themes of revenge and humiliation.
It smacks of some Scorpio something anyway. It is magnified to the nth degree, so it is probably indeed id-ish.
My thoughts anyway. Blake, what say you?
My thoughts anyway. Blake, what say you?
Nothing to say on this topic. And I think I fucked up on Kate Bush assignment. Upon further consideration, I would type her as a enneatype 3 ENFJ.
Wow, that’s a change! When you have time, if ever, I would be most interested in your reasoning.
Blake,
I sure hope it was not these lyrics that I typed out and my twisted synopsis of a classic piece of literature that made you think otherwise about Kate Bush’s type. There had to be more to your change of typing. I never knew enough about Kate Bush or really watched interviews with her so I just assumed you were correct. I am not invested either way, but just curious. Anyway, Heathcliff loved the one only.
Frumpy uptight English teachers and staid librarians felt something from this work, so I suppose any type could find something intriguing in the work. Maybe kind of like straight arrow types are now obsessed with Orange is the New Black or Breaking Bad. Wuthering Heights is rather twisted and extreme and the characters somewhat selfish and reprehensible souls. Still, there is a very raw humanness in the work as I see it. Kind of like your extreme examples of type, maybe?
What always amazed me is that the very quiet, shy, and reserved Ms. Bronte (by most accounts) could conceive of such a story. Her main companions were said to be the moors where she took solitary walks, animals, and her siblings. She died at 30 without much life experience that is recorded. Many think she was an INFP. Could an INFP really conceive of such characters? They are creative and inventive, but this is some dark kind of craziness. Well, it is a mystery, because we can not know much about a person who lived 100s of years ago. She either had one hell of an inner life or she had a secret life of unsuspected experience.
Back to the point, I am seriously curious about the change of typing
Of Kate Bush from INTJ to ENFJ enneagram 3. If you don’t have time to go into it, can you describe briefly an ENFJ type 3?
This is surreal beyond belief – I literally just signed in to post a Wuthering Heights-related link (as I thought it would provide some light relief after all that heavy Scorpio shit), only to find Rita’s post on the same topic!
Anyway, I found out today that July 16 is officially known as “The Most Wuthering Heights Day Ever” by Kate Bush fandom. This prestigious event is celebrated around the globe by en-masse dance-offs to Kate’s classic work of art by ensembles of red dress-wearing wannabes of both genders. Check out this video for some truly hysterical hijinks:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s8jQl_zOKm4
Stewart,
That was awesome! I really did laugh out loud. Thanks for sharing that timely and delightful video. This is waking me up more than coffee. Hugs and smiles from me to you. 🙂
I actually met Kate Bush once in London. She was signing album covers for “Never Forever” and some of my friends and I queued for hours outside a record store in Oxford Street. Must have been 1980 (showing my age here!).
I remember that she took the trouble to briefly chat with each person, and when it was my turn she looked up with those big eyes and smiled so warmly that I felt my knees wobble!
It was love at first sight – I’ve been a devoted fan of hers ever since. Her music was like nothing else around at the time and helped me through some dark and difficult times in my youth.
I still have that signed album cover, but somehow I can’t quite see myself flouncing around in a red dress to Wuthering Heights…….
Rita,
Exactly my thoughts on Bronte.. So much melancholic love, hate and passion from someone who avoided much social contact.. From what her sister has said about her though, it appears that she was quite well versed with the ways of people in spite of her reserved nature.. Makes me wonder..
Even i’ve seen the INFP typing all over the internet.. It confused me.. I wasn’t very convinced.. So after i posed my question here i got thinking.. This book felt all id.. I thought that INFPs do have strong Ni id.. What would a writer in the throes of Ni id read like? Franz Kafka probably.. His work affects me deeply too.. It’s melancholic and heartbreaking too.. But it’s more about the elusive universal truth lying hidden behind the unbreachable veil of the bizzareness of reality.. That kind of writing is strangely alleviating in spite of being melancholic.. Because it’s still more black and white than gray.. Wuthering heights was anything but black and white.. It’s the most gut-wrenching gray.. Very Scorpionic as you said.. I guess most people type her INFP cause what comes through most of all in her work is Fi.. But people think of it as her dominant rather than her id.. We just happen to be able to acknowledge this id thing, thanks to Blake.. 😛
And i don’t know what Blake has in mind, but my guess about the Kate Bush being ENFJ thing is that Bush and Bjork seem to manifest as a continuum of the same type..
Stewart,
That was hilarious! The lil kid looking completely lost, half way through the video, had me in splits 😀
Love your fan story.. Must be really cool to have met an artist you admire and then continue to see them make beautiful music over the years..
Stewart,
Your tale of meeting Kate Bush is so cool. Thanks for sharing that.
Regarding not donning a dress and flouncing around, why not? That looks awesome. Not that I would likely do it either, but doesn’t that look like a blast? I admire these people for their fun loving admiration and mimicry of an iconic piece of musical art.
Piggie, regarding Wuthering Heights Scorpionic feel. Absolutely. However, I read that Emily Bronte collected tidbits and details about people she observed and held onto them. That sounds pretty INFPish to me. INFPs have a very good take on people. They use their powers of observation to collect detailed information about them, and often come off as shy. So, who knows what was at work in her deepest recesses and what was behind her Wuthering Heights masterpiece? I would say in those days, death was a spectre that loomed large and near to all people. The comfort level with death may have been greater than what we observe in today’s society. Maybe it was not an id function at all, but a collection of observed and intuited attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors of life and love in a heavily classed system. I don’t know. It was an intriguing piece of literature though.
Also regarding ENFJs, I’ve read Blake’s articles about ENFJs, but cannot figure out what some of their defining features are. They sound powerful, manipulative, and somewhat evil. The one self identified ENFJ that I know seems a powerhouse, and I believe she is capable of manipulation, but she seems to play within the framework of an established system and shifts things incrementally with the idea of what is best for all. I honestly believe her vision is for that aim in truth. I think I know another who was a mentor to me and I always felt she was capable of being quite the snake in the grass and manipulated groups and could and did certainly quash her enemies. I’ve never loved her, trusted her, but respected her brilliance and learned a lot from her. She was not one who would be trifled with, but loved trifling with the lives of others. She was rather fascinated by me and that was because I kept her at arms length. She has a thing about those she cannot completely induct into her version of the system. She was in a position to watch her flock/prey and manipulate systems to suck further information out of it for her aims and advantage. She has definitely burned through some ENFPs who were some of her biggest supporters until they caught wise, but with their more vociferous opposition, she made mince meat out of them. I just shifted out of her grasp. Interesting people these ENFJs.
Rita, I wish I was uninhibited enough to do something fun like that just for the sheer glee of it.
But that annoying Ni fear of losing control makes it so hard to be spontaneous. Thankfully there are a few Se-type activities where I’m confident enough to let loose once in a while. I’m hopeless at team sports as I can’ t catch a ball to save my life, but I am good at solo activities such as swimming, cycling and dancing.
But don’t you just wish it was easier for us Ni-doms to relax our habitual planned approach to just about everything once in a while?
Rita,
What you said makes sense.. Those times were dark, so maybe its more of a reflection rather than a creation of the id.. And I can imagine an INFP being the quiet observer and collector of impressions.. For all we know she might have had a tragic clandestine love story of her own.. Or maybe hers was the unrequited angle of a love triangle.. Hmm.. Will be funny if she’s actually an ISFJ or something.. Sometimes i find my urge to type every person i’m intrigued by kind of scary.. But.. Time to revisit this book soon.. Just for the feels..
One of my childhood friends is an ENFJ.. She’s quite a perfectionist.. Charismatic.. Very perceptive.. Kind and generous.. But only as long as you’re playing by her rules.. Things HAVE to be the way she wants them to be..
She pretty much micromanages any fun thing we do together.. It’s usually with the intention of creating the best possible atmosphere for everyone to enjoy themselves.. But at times it can be stressful for everyone to live up to her vision.. I was a bridesmaid at her wedding and it was one of the most anxiety ridden days of my life..
She can be manipulative.. But most of the manipulation is limited to getting what she wants from others.. I mean she wouldn’t manipulate someone into doing something that’s bad for them.. But she would push them into doing something she thinks is good for them even if they hate the idea of doing it..
She is also self-admittedly vengeful when scorned (she has Scorpio Sun too).. And quite judgemental of those she considers beneath herself.. She gives a lot of rope to those she considers equals.. But where she sees a lack of potential there’s a scary lack of compassion.. She also has this tendency to take on ‘pets’.. She takes on people who need ‘fixing’.. INFJs do this too.. But the flavour is different.. There’s a greater urgency to the way she goes about it..
When we travel together its great because she makes me do Se things i wouldn’t on my own.. It’s like she drives my Se experiences and there’s no fear of going overboard like there is with ESFPs.. Her interest in Se is more sensual than mine though.. She is very attractive.. She enjoys indulging her senses.. She cares a lot about appearances.. Sometimes social activities are more about competition for her.. Who can turn more heads.. Who can win this game.. Who is the better cook.. Who can spend more.. Who can dance better.. And she knows how men work.. Gives the best relationship advice..
In spite of all the differences we share a deep bond.. We both grew up together, dreaming of romantic ideal worlds.. It was nice having someone who understood that.. Reality has changed a lot about us in the past decade.. But those magical years will never be forgotten.. During our dark times we are there for each other.. There’s a vulnerability in her, which is not visible to anyone but those closest to her.. Sometimes it is annoying (Fe doms express and exaggerate their sorrows with a confidence i wish i had).. But the vulnerability always makes me hold on.. And she’s always adored me for reasons i cannot fathom.. She tells me i am “different”.. And i have this feeling that she’s also a little afraid of me.. Yes.. ENFJs are quite a handful.. 😛
Piggie,
Your description of your ENFJ friend was excellent and kind of helpful. The one ENFJ I mentioned sounds quite like yours. She is a wonderful human being and really cares with seemingly infinite energy for others. We are not close the way you are with your friend, but this was/is a professional friendship that goes beyond a shared occupation. We are quite alike yet oh so different. I admire her and she admires me. She trusts me as I do her. She is full of charm and she has more of a push about her than I do. She definitely has a competitive streak, but it isn’t all the time in all areas and it is not destructive. It just helps her drive and excel and since her aim is to help others, she is excellent in this capacity.
The other one. She is another matter. She does do a lot of good for others, but she also seems to delight in using people like pawns. Like all of us, she is a mixed bag, but her extremes seem pretty damn powerful and she has the energy and force to drive them forward with her minions following along and implementing her design. One thing they both have in common is that they win people easily to them, they are competitive, they are intelligent, driven, and they seem to always be in a position of leadership. I think they would be quite uncomfortable if they were not in control of some others, behind major projects, and the main decision maker (after heavily persuading others to be on board with their vision but making it look more democratic somehow). What amazes me is that both have over time consulted with me about my take on matters and actually applied what I said. They seem so sure of themselves and their insights, but both have complimented my “perspective shifting” and “intuition” as exceeding theirs in some ways. Their exact words. I felt honored, but maybe that was just their manipulation to induct me into their ultimate evil designs. 😉
Lunar was mentioning Hitler’s type. Now I’m wondering if maybe he was an ENFJ. I cannot fathom how people could find the man charismatic though. If charisma is a feature of an ENFJ, does Hitler have it? He convinced a lot of people obviously but there are a lot of uncharismatic yet convincing leaders who are not ENFJs. The two ENFJs I know are hardly Hitler and are not evil in their vision, but were they to be sure of another more destructive vision, I’m pretty certain there would be few who could stop them, at least in their domains. The one who seems slightly more diabolical was hell on a few who tried to stop her and she did it so well, I’m not sure they even know it was her who took them out or maybe they know better than to say anything because there is little convincing the convinced supporters of her. After all, they were once convinced themselves and would never have believed a report from others that this person was anything less than perfect.
Stories like yours Piggie, about ENFJ’s, is why I have an instinctive distrust of most dom- Fe (and some aux-Fe) users. The whole idea of that kind of manipulation is repulsive to me like few things are and gives me the strong urge to shut it down with harshness whenever I see it. Or at the very least, I will not be manipulated – I will be the manipulator. Must be an Fi thing.
@Lml519
I think I used to react similarly to Fe long ago. But Fe at the same time is often genuine. A genuine concern for the atmosphere and the general good. Fe can be used in different ways. I really dislike the “hiding true motive/controlling” version of it and when there is an extreme and conscious ease with this kind of usage some people probably do get plain manipulated for good or evil. However, good use of Fe is something I marvel at and appreciate.
I also noticed that people don’t always feel well treated by dominant Fi, experiencing it as ?random and per person philosophy? Oddly I have never experienced Fi as incomprehensible in any Fi user. But Fe users don’t experience it how we do it seems…. you can tell by the surprise/confusion on their faces.
Rita,
Your first ENFJ sounds like a healthy one.. The second sounds very interesting.. I’ve never worked with an ENFJ, but, healthy ENFJs, i think, can bring a lot of positivity to whatever they are involved in.. They naturally inspire confidence and have a very nurturing effect.. And they do not procrastinate.. Things always get done.. An unhealthy one, on the other hand, could take control to another level.. Personally, i don’t find ENTJs half as intimidating as ENFJs because ENTJs are straightforward.. Unhealthy ENFJs are more likely to pull those strings you aren’t aware you’re tied to.. Your description of the second ENFJ and her minions reminded me of Mean Girls.. How easy it is for someone with the power of charisma to manipulate insecure people into doing their bidding, to the extent that some of these people aren’t even aware of what they really think or want.. These ENFJs do have an eye for character and potential though.. I’m certain they respect you for what they see in you and probably know you’re not one to play games with..
Hitler.. Well.. It’s kind of the whole Mean Girls scenario taken to the nth degree isn’t it? To be able to and WANT to command a whole race.. I wouldn’t be surprised if he were ENFJ.. I haven’t read his autobiography or watched many of his speeches.. But he did have a very commanding presence and an intensity and vigour in his expression.. Hmm.. I wonder what Blake thinks of Hitler..
Lml519,
I think that’s the strength of Fi doms.. Their refusal to give up their identity and sense of self.. I find it very admirable.. It’s something i’ve had to learn to do.. And even now i fail frequently.. It is frustrating when i can see myself giving in to any sort of emotional manipulation..
At the end of the day though, I think it’s the intention behind the manipulation that really makes it benign or repulsive.. Being an aux Fe user, i know that Fe, by itself, is very in the moment and well-intentioned.. What i mean is that it cannot be negative on its own because it is not pre-constructed.. It’s more like a regulator.. It’s wonderful when it is combined with genuine kindness, love and concern.. It can nudge people into being the best versions of themselves.. It’s when it gets combined with something like twisted perception or a person’s insecurities that it becomes negatively manipulative.. And unfortunately it is impossible to separate Fe from the person expressing it.. What you see through Fe is, strangely, just as much the person itself as what you’ll see through Fi.. The difference being that Fi doesn’t force itself on others whereas Fe does.. At the same time some people enjoy having Fe forced on them.. I’ve seen XXTPs happily surrender to it and at times own it.. It makes them feel good for some reason..
And I’ve seen a live example of an INFP shutting Fe down with harshness.. It wasn’t pretty.. And unfortunately it left many people thinking that the INFP was “heartless” and “selfish”.. Clearly it was a case of the INFP seeing right through all the bullshit and refusing to be a part of the masquerade, but no one seemed to get that because the INFP did not explain her reasons for this refusal to surrender.. My friend asked me later whether there was something wrong with her and whether she was really as terrible a person as people thought she was and whether she deserved to be alone because she could not be fake like everyone else.. That broke my heart.. This world does not understand or appreciate Fi as much as it should..
Lunar,
“I also noticed that people don’t always feel well treated by dominant Fi, experiencing it as ?random and per person philosophy? Oddly I have never experienced Fi as incomprehensible in any Fi user. But Fe users don’t experience it how we do it seems…. you can tell by the surprise/confusion on their faces.”
I wouldn’t say it doesn’t make one feel well treated.. If i really had to pick a word though, i would say unreliable.. And that’s not entirely bad when you know to expect it.. I used to find it confusing when i was younger.. But with time i’ve learnt to understand the difference between Fe affection and Fi affection..
Fe is ever ready and ever present.. You know you’ll always get the kind of response you are looking for and you know you’ll be able to estimate the effect of your words or actions on the person by their response.. It’s easy.. But it doesn’t feel all that satisfying.. Only because you know it’s not taking all of them to be that way.. I’m not saying Fe users don’t feel deeply.. They do.. And their affection is just as genuine.. But it doesn’t take much for them to express it.. Which means they can express it even when they are not feeling it as intensely in the moment..
Fi is a waiting game.. You can sense it under the surface but you can’t touch it.. It comes out in unspoken gestures that can be a hit or a miss depending on how much attention you are paying.. To me, it is not incomprehensible as much as it is not always visible.. And those who have not been paying enough attention can be taken aback by it’s intensity when it strikes.. Fi has a depth which is a lot more satisfying when it is seen or felt.. But because it is unreliable, in its visibility not its intensity, at times its not always comforting.. And yes, for those seeking instant approval, Fi might not be their best bet..
To those who don’t know what to expect from Fi, it can be rather confusing.. Another incident involving an INFP comes to mind.. This was (is) a situation between two of my friends.. An INFP and an ESFJ..
INFP and ESFJ went through an emotional roller coaster ride together.. It ripped them both apart.. But they became solid friends and helped each other wade through the mess.. INFP played the role of listener (that’s a hard job considering how much ESFJs talk).. ESFJ played the role of sometimes listener/sometimes advisor.. Time passed and slowly but surely the mess cleared up.. They moved to different places with the promise of everlasting friendship and a vow to leave the past behind..
ESFJ had learnt her lessons.. She had made up her mind about whether what had happened was right or wrong and she knew they had been on the right side.. Being wiser now, she tried to move on to a new life in new surroundings, one in which the same mistakes would not be repeated..
INFP was holding on to the past.. Over analysing her actions and what she might have done wrong to make the mess happen in the first place.. Was there anything she could have or should have done differently? Could the mess still be fixed? All she wanted was to turn the clock back and undo the things which lead to the mess.. So, INFP was not in a very stable state..
ESFJ tried and tried and tried to keep in touch with INFP.. Sometimes INFP would respond and seem okay and sometimes not.. Eventually, ESFJ realised INFP was still hurting and wanted to help INFP move on.. ESFJ told INFP that just “talking about it” would help.. “Sharing makes things easier”.. INFP could not share.. She avoided talking about it because she was still processing all the emotions and the meaning of every single incident.. She needed to run over them over and over before she could express what she really felt.. And it would be a while before she could turn her heart and mind onto something else.. She knew ESFJ would not have the patience to understand this and would say something like you’ve got to occupy yourself with better thoughts or this is not worth thinking about.. So INFP went into hiding..
ESFJ was hurt that INFP did not value her friendship and concern.. ESFJ was hurt that INFP did not trust her enough to share with her.. ESFJ wanted INFP to be okay and was frustrated that INFP would not let her help.. ESFJ did not realise that only INFP could help herself.. That all INFP needed was time.. ESFJ has learnt from the past to shut people out when they hurt you beyond repair.. So ESFJ shut INFP out.. This ESFJ shutting someone out is not the same as the “Closed” sign at the cafe door.. This ESFJ shutting someone out is a cold cafe where the best coffee in the world won’t make you feel warm (lot of Scorpio influences in the astrological make up of this one).. So when INFP had sorted through stuff and felt better and came back to ESFJ, INFP knew something had changed but could not understand why.. She would’ve understood if ESFJ did the same.. But you see.. ESFJ would never need to do the same thing.. Fe or Fi it all comes from some place subjective.. We offer what we expect..
ESFJ felt like she had given too much and INFP did not deserve it.. INFP had done what it took to keep herself sane.. And all they have is a memory of a strong friendship which will not be again..
I realise this comment looks long and scary so i’ll stop now.. 😛
very illuminating response, Piggie, thank you.
yes, Fi can be hard to channel in a relatable way. There isn’t an instinctive desire to relate to the object, and in doing so, mold itself to be a form that’s more congruent with it. That’s how I view Fe.
I would like to hear more specific details about the instance you described, when your friend or acquaintance refused to go along with the bullshit but wasn’t well received. Was it just because she didn’t explain her internal reasoning and motivations, so it just seem like it was out of nowhere?
I know I’d certainly do well to unveil more of my inner workings to the world. Because regardless of whether or not people agree with my thought process, at least they can judge based on more accurate information instead of filling the blanks with all sorts of hideous misconceptions. And I can live with that.
Another great post on INFJ vs INFP differences popped into my mind. (I’d like to actually post this in the INFJ vs INFP threads, but it looks like they have been closed for comments?)
http://stuff-infps-say.tumblr.com/post/73450443428/infpinfj-social-distinctions-continued
It’s a great complement to the insights that Blake has shared with us, because whereas his goes into the distinctions in the deep psyche, this post outlines manifestations in outward behavior.
“Do realize that neither argument is perfect and both have their pros and cons. I’m (INFP) just stubborn and conflict avoiding. My mother (INFJ) has been able to get her way in situations through this, but has been burned in ways I could never imagine myself getting. I meanwhile, don’t get as emotionally hurt and in “wars” with people, but do have a much, much harder time getting what I want.”
Sorry if this is off track. I just found it to be such a fascinating gem that I had to share, about Fi vs Fe. Can’t speak for INFJ but the INFP perspective in this is spot-on for me. And ay, that’s the rub about Fe – as much as it makes life easier in some ways than Fi, it also has a capacity for vengeance and games that makes it vulnerable to (and arguably game for) reciprocal treatment. So, pick your poison.
Lml519,
That incident.. Well she had lost a member of her immediate family.. While they were in mourning a some people who cannot exactly be called well-wishers dropped by.. These people hadn’t bothered to keep in touch for years and had also caused a lot of complications in their lives in the past.. And suddenly they were pretending like they had the best interests of her family in mind and started offering suggestions and making decisions for them.. She also heard these people laughing and talking behind their back.. She is kind of the “black sheep” in the family cause she’s the only Fi user while the others are Fe users (according to me).. So the Fe users, were super touched by the actions of these people who randomly appeared to offer solace and support.. Even if they found it strange, which i am sure they did, they played along for the sake of peace.. They didn’t want to create a scene.. Suddenly they were being cordial and accommodating towards people they did not trust, at a time like that, when they needed to stick together as a family.. This went against every grain of her soul.. She quite obviously got annoyed and started being rude to everyone.. They thought she was doing it because she wanted attention and was asked to behave.. Eventually she lost her temper and exploded.. People had no idea where it was coming from and accused her of being selfish and heartless and what not.. She was left alone after that, at a time when she really needed someone to hold her.. Maybe if she had told others what made her react that way (especially the talking behind the back stuff), they probably wouldn’t have misunderstood her to such an extent.. I doubt they would’ve understood why she couldn’t just play along for the sake of peace though.. Fe doesn’t always get why Fi might want to stand in the way of harmony.. Communication does make things better though.. At the least it, creates an environment of trust.. When people feel like they know what the other is going through they’ll try to accept it even if they don’t understand it.. 🙂
And interesting article.. I have to say i resonate with the author’s mother’s words.. About it being “not really learning how to live”.. Err.. I sometimes do it to test myself.. See whether i’m capable of being the better person.. And also because i feel like there’s nothing that can be done to change what people really are.. I feel like there’s no point being mad at someone for being who they are (even when i am really really mad).. Cause nurture always influences nature.. The person might have done so and so thing because when they were 2 they had been ignored by their dad or mom when they needed the attention.. Or because they’d been too pampered.. Or because they’d been bullied when they were kids.. Or someone had made them feel like they were physically or intellectually inferior.. Or anything.. I feel like i have no real way of truly understanding what insecurities are driving these people and although it is fair to judge whether what they did is right or wrong in an objectively moral sense, it is not fair to judge them for what they’ve become because they could not choose what they went through.. In other words a person always has the option of doing the right or wrong thing but they don’t really have the option of choosing how they become the person who preferred to choose right over wrong or vice versa.. It’s a battle with myself, cause on one hand i might be furious or full of disgust but on the other hand i feel guilty for taking the easier way out (in my head).. All said, i wouldn’t go out of my way to be nice to them.. I would definitely let them know what i think, but in a very low key way.. And i would be polite and helpful but they wouldn’t get that special version of niceness reserved for the people who really matter.. They’d get the surface level fake niceness, which is their loss.. All this, just cause i don’t want to be part of what makes them a worse person, if that makes sense.. But i can be quite a monster if i feel emotionally “used” beyond a certain threshold.. I’ll make all the excuses in the world for a person till they do that one thing which went too far.. The person stops being human to me when that happens.. I can also be the most detached inflictor of pain when i’ve been hurt by a person i had “let in”..
Do you relate with her admission of holding grudges? And what exactly does “have a much harder time getting what i want” mean?
Yes, in my personal experience, communication goes a looooong way. And for Fi, I’d add picking your battles. Not saying that your friend didn’t do the right thing; but I find that all Feeling types can benefit from a reminder that other people can’t read our minds.
I wouldn’t say it is holding a grudge, so much as being so overwhelmed with the negativity associated with whatever happened, that I cannot bring myself to maintain “friendly ties”. This usually happens with people who I am not that close to anyway in the first place. Any heated conflict that gets kinda personal is a toxin that ends things right then and there for me. And it’s permanent; even if decades pass I will still ignore that person on the street.
Conflict is much easier with people that are in my inner circle and do not produce this effect.
Reading it over again, I’m not quite sure. A case study sure would’ve helped. But I suspect the original poster means in the context of social interactions. Fi doesn’t like to impose itself on others so it probably has a harder time getting people to act or behave in ways that’s pleasing to it?
“Conflict is much easier with people that are in my inner circle and do not produce this effect.”
What makes it easier?
I’d say it’s about the degree of familiarity that isn’t present in my acquaintanceships and more distant connections.
Actually, one of my ESFJ friends once mentioned that at work, he makes an active effort at self-disclosure (though he didn’t use that word) and getting to know his coworkers better personally because later on, it makes giving critical feedback and working through conflicts easier. This was fascinating to me and I definitely saw it as the product of an Fe-dominant thinking process. Would you agree with what he said?
In the past, I rarely made an effort to truly get to know people who I didn’t instantly connect with. Nor did I share much about myself beyond the superficial. It was all subconscious though and I wasn’t even aware of this tendency until I learned more about cognitive functions. In retrospect, this only made conflicts more difficult, but not sure I can really put into words why at the moment.
“Actually, one of my ESFJ friends once mentioned that at work, he makes an active effort at self-disclosure (though he didn’t use that word) and getting to know his coworkers better personally because later on, it makes giving critical feedback and working through conflicts easier. This was fascinating to me and I definitely saw it as the product of an Fe-dominant thinking process. Would you agree with what he said?”
Knowing someone makes it easier to know “how” to break good or bad news to each person.. If you know you might have to force a bitter pill down their throat, it would be nicer to make it easier for them to swallow it.. Self-disclosure creates a human connection. Anyone is more likely to look at someone who has told them a personal story with kinder eyes.. They are more likely to think you have good intentions.. We automatically like people who trust us.. Many sensors do anyway.. And knowing someone also helps in just picking the right combination of words.. Sometimes i’m surprised at how differently i frame sentences based on who i’m talking to.. Same story but different stress points for different people based on what interests them.. I also always say something uplifting after saying something that i know might cause pain.. I’ve done this even while arguing with people.. I give them the brutal truth and then say something very kind and understanding or point out a positive aspect of their character just to divert the focus away from the wound.. It’s like kissing someone’s boo boo after ripping the bandage off.. Ah i get why Fe seems so shallow 😛
So interesting to read these Fi experiences that are so different to Fi dominance. It is like Fi is a labyrinth for you guys.
I didn’t know Roger Waters infj. Thought he was ISFP.
Blake, thanks for the article and yet another reminder to be who we are (which is not always nice). I’d love to hear your analysis of what is at the root of this INFJ feigned niceness, anyway.
Is it (a) not liking and approving of oneself enough that like and approval are sought externally and/or (b) the “over”ability to feel the other’s pain and not wanting to “sting” them (the way the INFJ can feel so easily stung)?
Or something else?
I know one of my most helpful steps in evolution has been moving past continuing to play nice when it is clearly not deserved on the other side. I was only able to do this by starting to like myself first and then deliberately choosing myself anytime this situation arises (that is, being more okay with allowing the other to be unhappy than making myself unhappy).
On that note, why can INFJs evoke palpable dislike from certain characters (sometimes even before there has even been any verbal interaction)? Are there certain personality types who are more likely to react to INFJ in this way?
So infjs when “not being nice” are like hyperaware of it? It sounds somewhat difficult to live that way.
Does Fi id also explains why when infjs express a like or dislike it comes across anything but indifferent? Always seems very serious?
The whole thing of we are ALL shit/scum (everyone included as you write) is something I have seen intps do as well? Seems to be general bottom Fi stuff mixed with Fe?
There are so many articles about INFJ and their id, what about other types? Especially extravert types. Not trying to be ungrateful, and I respect that this blog is your creative process and not a service, just a suggestion because I feel the information about INFJ’s is getting a bit repetitive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOxJIQXTsSw
Doesn’t he show a bit of tertiary Ni lock here kind of like much less extreme version of what you taught us using Russell Brand? It seems more locked in than dominant Ni?
I dunno… I mean he is really rough on edges (Te somewhere in there??). Infjs always seem rounder even when scorpio.
Doesn’t he show a bit of tertiary Ni lock here kind of like much less extreme version of what you taught us using Russell Brand?
No, I don’t see that at all. He seems to have very homely and cozy Ni, if anything. Actually, I don’t really see any overt Ni from Waters usually. Actually, as he gets older, he seems like he turning into a regular Anthony Bourdain (good example of an ISFJ to me). Aww, how sweet!
I dunno… I mean he is really rough on edges (Te somewhere in there??). Infjs always seem rounder even when scorpio.
Yeah, Waters has some “roughness”, but, he is basically a sensitive, insightful, and egotistical asshole. Has all the hallmarks of INFJ to me.
INFJs and roundness? Well, that’s just the thing. INFJs are sharper and more angular than the xNFP type.
O, Lunar I don’t know, it gets so subjective these discussions.
One minute a person will look one way to you and the next minute they will look another way. You’re looking at all these nuances and shifting impressions. But, the way to find a person’s type is by static Ti typing. It’s that part of a person that doesn’t change via the feeling function, ie those little shifts and inflections and turns of the head and so on.
Like, who is Roger Waters stably across all his works and interviews and breaths and so on?
I tell you one thing that is pretty stable about Waters. He is known as a great lyricist. I vouch for that. A person that is a great lyricist has INFJ written all over it. This would also simultaneously tend to rule out ISFP, who are one of the least likely of all types to have great facility with language. If a person is capable of moving a wide number of people with language, chances are high that they are an INFJ.
That is a relatively objective phenomenon (if a person is famous for such a thing). How “round” or “rough” a person is are wide-open to interpretation.
For example, while I agree with you that Waters doesn’t strike me as having the “round” quality, you have said that infjs always seems rounder than someone like him. So, OK, who are you talking about? For starters.
@Blake
“But, the way to find a person’s type is by static Ti typing.”
I naturally go by vibe (Ne+Fi). Since that is my best tool. For an infp to Ti is like for an infj to type by using their internal sensations. So while I understand your point that in the final analysis I may be handicapped, I am not sure what I can actually do, not participate? How do I learn?
There is a big gulf between Nick Cave and Roger Waters in interviews. Nick Cave is very contemplative, nuanced. Roger Waters is swaggery, idealistic, anti-establishment, genuine, grounded. And just takes up quite a bit of physical space.
Infj has inner isfp, infj has SE, estp shadow, Fi id, etc etc, so maybe I am getting everything all cross-wired. But I just had the impression of someone not on the same continuum.
“For example, while I agree with you that Waters doesn’t strike me as having the “round” quality, you have said that infjs always seems rounder than someone like him….”…..
I would not use that alone to type someone ever so it’s just a vague impression. Little details sometimes stick out to me like that. I find that Nick Cave for example has a rounder quality. And seems to carry a burden. Waters just seemed more like forcefully pushing out his ideals, more Fi to Te with Ni in there. I don’t know how to change a vibe to Ti-truth.
However your counterargument that he is a great lyricist is good to me. Because I do often associate a difficulty in talking smoothly to isfps…. So if I were to just go on the voice and talking, it seemed to flow perhaps a bit better than I associate to isfps. It is a type I don’t know well from real life.
Q: I know you are busy, but if you could go a bit more into how you were able to determine infj for Roger Waters that is helpful to me. Only Fe moves large crowds?
I put the wrong link. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asFm7lA32k0
I have a question,, how can we differ between strong Fi in INTJ and Fi id of an INFJ since you said in the last article that id is stronger than the auxiliary function?
in other words how Fi can be different in different positions, Fi id, Fi auxiliary and Fi third function, your answer will help me to determine my real MBTI type I know I’m an Ni dominate type but I’m not sure about the rest,, thank you so much
I have a question, how can we differ between strong Fi in INTJ and Fi id of an INFJ since you said in the last article that id is stronger than the auxiliary function?
Check out this six minute clip from the movie Rodger Dodger where an INTJ (me thinks) waxes arrogantly and philosophically about the future of the male gender for recreational purposes. Seems to me to me to be a good example of Fi in the tertiary vs. the id position. This guy is not at all attached to his cynical prognosis, but, he is adamant about getting his point across.
This movie in general is great for watching an INTJ in action as he helps the main character in the movie read the sexual signals that women put off for the purpose of exploiting them so he can get laid.
I think this is showing Fi Scorpio tertiary in action with a Ti Aquarius id.
An INTJ can be very good at reading people psychologically with no emotional involvement whatsoever. Not true for INFJ. In order for an INFJ to do a similar thing they would have to be involved in some sort of empathic communion with the other person. They are simply not so cold and exploitative as INTJ is capable of being.
The basic difference is that INTJs think like a Scorpio (Fi sign) and INFJs feel like a Scorpio. Obviously, there is quite a bit of overlap between these two types and it can be hard to determine which is which in many cases.
Also, in the above clip, you see a resistance against using any Fe whatsoever on the part of the INTJ who is attempting to relate his point to his audience. You can see that his audience is trying to joke with him and each other and that he maintains a somewhat disdainful and removed comportment from their childish behavior (what he thinks is their childish behavior, perhaps). I think an INTJ will often make an effort to not use any Fe in their communication as if they seek to remove this element as much as possible from their demeanor.
So, there’s a ménage à trois going on with INTJ, INFJ, and the Scorpio sign. Is THIS why a Scorpio sign might be confused as to which type it is? Are there any other sign/type parallelisms in this orgy? Because I’m feeling violated with possibility.
@Blake – “The basic difference is that INTJs think like a Scorpio (Fi sign) and INFJs feel like a Scorpio.”
What a thought! That’s excellent, thank you.
Yeah I was looking at the lyrics. I think I might be wrong. Also the titles Dark side (of the moon) Amused to death etc
Lots of poetry
Also looked at some interview transcripts.
I guess in that Bourdain interview he was just enjoying chatting and Bon vivre
Although his lyrics aren’t inaccessibly metaphorical. They are very accessible.
No, his lyrics aren’t inaccessible at all. INFJs often have the gift of making the abstruse or difficult aspects of human nature easy to relate to for anyone. Roger Waters definitely has this gift as an artist in his best works. Hell, Dark Side of The Moon is one of the best-selling albums of all time and it essentially dealing with some very difficult sides of human nature. Dark Side of The Moon is probaly one of the best examples of an artistic statement that was able to take some of the darkest sides of human nature and make them palatable (and relatable) to the masses.
Rogers wasn’t the only person responsible for this success, but, he was definitely it’s key component.
INFJs are particularly gifted at being able to take something dark and painful and make it into something of a universal sentiment that everyone can relate to. This is not to say that most INFJs will do this at the level that Waters and company were able to do, but, if someone is able to do this, then, there is a high chance that I will think they are an INFJ after cursory and extended analyses.
I think most of the great poets were INFJs. Name me off a poet that has stood the test of time and chances are I will type them as an INFJ.
The same principle holds true for great lyricists. Similar facility, only in this case, it is words set to music.
I will go as far to say that most anything that can be agreed upon to be “poetic” in nature, whether that be actual words, music, images etc., an INFJ will have the most facility to be poetic in whatever medium they work in. And potentially, the most universally poetic, as in being able to relate in relatively simple terms an aspect of the human condition that moves a great many people. That’s just what an INFJ is naturally tuned into.
Of course, not all, or even most INFJs will manifest this in actual works that wide bodies of peoples will know about, but, they have the most ability and potential to do this of all types.
And moreover, it is quite often that an INFJ doesn’t have a choice in the matter – they must become an artist in order to deal with and express their pain. To put forms on their often unsought after insights into the human condition.
Or they could become a psychologist.
Or a philosopher.
But, they have to do something to deal with the crazy shit that they can intimately feel. And yes, a lot of this shit that they feel and experience has it’s origins in the Fi id I was referencing in this article.
Blake,
You touch on the very dichotomous (at the very minimum) nature of INFJs so beautifully. It is a nature that no one else seems to describe so well as you do. The Luciferian aspect (fallen angel) and all of that is so seldom recognized.
The societal lack of recognition of the darker aspects of humanity and emotion has struck me always as dismissive and terribly lopsided.
The music and literature you bring with the articles so often hit home your points and usually speak to something beyond the realm of description. Your descriptions alone are quite enough, but this extra layer is also delicious. Thanks again.
Thanks Rita. Yeah, I think it does help to bring in literary and cinematic examples to illustrate and buttress the points I’m trying to make. And it also might introduce people to a cool artist or work they never heard of before that moment! Win-win.
I just learned that in socionics, they have this concept of the id block which includes two functions. How well does it map to what you call the id?
I just learned that in socionics, they have this concept of the id block which includes two functions. How well does it map to what you call the id?
It don’t map too well. I believe the id block in Socionics consists of the dominant and auxiliary functions, so, obviously different things we are talking about here. Though, I do like Socionics quite a bit and have gotten some seminal insights from that system.
That system is so confusing. So many symbols and flipped nomenclature. I think I figured out that in socionics, id block= ignoring+ demonstrative/background functions. For infj, id block= Ne + Fi. Looks like the flip of the ego block= leading + creative functions = Ni + Fe.
I have the impression that they view the background function as a background process that is always there and deeply rooted.
Roger Waters reminds me ever so slightly of Jon Stewart in his political zeal. He almost seems even more zealous. Almost in an intj sort of way where you feel he could shred people who don’t share his views of who the culprits are etc. Like as if in his zeal he might completely forget he human element (Fe turned off). Jon Stewart doesn’t seem to ever be able to go there…. I know infjs can shred people but intjs can act like people aren’t even people sometimes. This guy Roger Waters has a bit more of that vibe than Jon Stewart. Jon Stewart is focused on bridging the gap, like he has to suffer stupidity while he advocates.
But then he sometimes seems more infj than intj precisely for all that darkness. Intjs can seem so much more ascetic in emotional expression even with all their implied disdain. Vibes….
Q: People attribute infj to Hitler. And he was described as nurturing to those around him and to children on the one hand and sadistic and enjoying to watch torture of “enemies” on the other hand.
So question can both be true or must it follow that the first nurturing aspect must be a shallow act? I feel I have a simple view of love/hate and don’t know how someone can do both of these and mean it…..
It is attributed by some. I can’t fathom it and would have to be convinced. However, I can’t bear the thought of research.
@TinyYellowTree,
yeah…. me either. What a case.
Lunar,
About Hitler: “can both be true or must it follow that the first nurturing aspect must be a shallow act?”
Who knows about Hitler for sure, but I would say it definitely in the realm of possibility and probably in actuality that both can be true. Most people have some degree of ability to compartmentalize emotions, behaviors, and such. You can find a lot of examples of this in the extreme throughout history and really in daily news. You can probably find smaller and less extreme examples in those around you or maybe even yourself to some degree. Like when your personal life is falling apart and your heart is breaking, but you go to work and you smile, perform, and answer the question “how are things going?” with “Fine, thanks.” Maybe in that moment, you are fine and not really lying because you have put the personal life on the back burner and are fully present and grateful for how well your work is going. Or you answer honestly from the framework of how is work going and leave out the parts that do not seem consequential to this enterprise or the relationship you have with this co-worker/boss/client. That is the lesser version. Hitler could be an extreme version.
So yeah, both parts can be true. In Hitler’s case, it seems there may have been that common mentality that you can see everywhere, “us” (the in group and the special) and “them” (the other, the less than, and in extremes – the subhumans).
Niggling thoughts….
In a Howard Stern interview, Rogers is asked why he has had so many failed marriages? I see no Fi id. Just a flat answer of the problem being in his selection process and chuckle chuckle. It seems very Te to me, vulnerable covered up by appealing to lapse in reason.
What about The Wall as the ultimate symbol of being “cut-off” a bit intjish?
Also… people speak and speak of his arrogance. I don’t really think of intjs as arrogant but people sure do seem to in general.
I can see WHY infj fits, but how does one rule out intj? What is the process? Intjs can also be poets.
Blake, can you give me a way to reject intj?
even entj
in his interviews (2006 BBC, Eric Ripert..) he shows a lot of concern with universal Fi themes, it isn’t deeply personal in an id-like way but in a much more consciously sorted Fi way. equity, war, political lies, schmeducation, …
When asked how he comes up with this songs, he says that it might start with playing around on an instrument, or, a political or philosophical idea etc. Very intellectual sounding.
I can see how infj would fit, but not how one can be sure that intj cannot fit.
In the convo with Ripert I thought he was isfp because I was sensing a bath of conscious Fi and Ni. Well the other type in a bath of Ni and conscious Fi is intj.
I’m wondering how the id manifests in the form of the thinking functions. I mean, I can understand how feeling and perception functions would translate as they don’t necessarily rely on, well thinking!, but as the id is present from birth, then how does it relate to the forms of te and ti at that time, and what might this id look like in once the brain has developed ?
the understanding of the Fi id in INFJ has for me really explained a lot of stuff i experience. Yes, INFJ without Fi just seems ridiculous, as it seems to be the undercurrent of everything else. I never understood those who said when deep feelings arise INFJs just need to wait until the feelings have dissolved and then turn to Ni to resolve any issues. How can I bypass feelings?! That’s a big ask. So to engage Fe made a lot more sense and is fully practical, fully workable. Personally I don’t like being an INFJ. My few close friends are INFPs and I always wished I could be so emotionally grounded and pleasantly aloof to things in my environment as they seem to be. Being an INFJ in this world seems tough. I wish i could switch it off, stop absorbing,stop seeing and feeling everything and everyone else around me. and I wish I didn’t have this alluring and simultaneous heart-breaking id thing that is always there in the background waiting to lead me down a path of torturous eternal heartbreak that has no resolution. But I have trodden my foot in these deep waters so that I could know what was down there, what it felt like, how deeply I could love, and although i found no solace, what I have found is that heart has opened, the rusty, bolted doors have twisted and broken at the hinges and this door has fallen away. I seem to have a greater capacity to see and feel the other, any other person from a much deeper place,a much truer place because I’ve felt a little of the sorrow of this human condition, what its like to experience love and separation and aloneness.
I feel it’s best just to walk the other way when the id is pulling. That’s what I have learned- Best just to do something Fe, as Blake has so graciously revealed to us – talk to someone, do something normal, superficial, take a walk, have a coffee, and just one simple thing – close the id door and walk the other way. it’s an easy and quick decision to make. the id path is a road to nowhere even though it will make you feel as fully human as you could ever feel.
So yes, Thank you Blake for your guidance on this.
You’re welcome 🙂
I’m wondering how the id manifests in the form of the thinking functions. I mean, I can understand how feeling and perception functions would translate as they don’t necessarily rely on, well thinking!, but as the id is present from birth, then how does it relate to the forms of te and ti at that time, and what might this id look like in once the brain has developed ?
In a nutshell, INFJs are born with strong and susceptible feeling and end with developed thinking. You might say that Ti for an INFJ is akin to the philosopher’s stone. It is the end of their search. So, thinking, in toto, is largely the end stage process of an INFJ. Highly developed INFJs show a facility for introverted thinking and even extraverted thinking.
The way thinking relates to the Fi id of INFJ can largely be seen in the line from the Yeat’s poem The Second Coming: The worst are full of passionate intensity while the best lack all conviction.” I think an INFJ often starts out at the former and arrives at the latter by much trial and suffering.
INFJs often start out with much conviction and passionate intensity in their youth and eventually burn through all this stuff to arrive at a place of calm detachment.
INFJs when young are often VERY SURE about what is right and wrong. They have strong feelings of one-sidedness for or against. They emotionally identify with certain stances and positions they take on issues.
This is less true the more an INFJ develops. They become less sure about what is right or wrong. And so, this could definitely be the beginning of the thinking function. Thinking lacks deep conviction. Thinking dispassionately looks at both sides of an issue to arrive at a balanced measure of truth. And thinking can often see the merit in both sides of a position.
Forgot to mention (because most of the things I mentioned were more Se type activities) that I write the morning pages, following Blake’s advice, meaning I write 3 pages of whatever comes to me without pausing to think or analyse or reflect (no Ti!), and then I close the book. Poetry also if it comes to me is I find a fantastic way of expressing and transforming the fi id. Or I just get a box of crayons and a large sheet of paper and just colour.
and I get what you’re saying about using the id energy to take action, to turn things around, to get of of being helpless, but personally I think the task is to be with that inner pain, that helplessness of the pisces id your refer to, to really feel it sometimes, go into it and find strength in the vulnerability, and inwardly surrender, acting from that place rather than from some kind of aggression against and away from that.
and finally I don’t know what kind of INFJ id this is, but I like it!:
“Dance, when you’re broken open. Dance, if you’ve torn the bandage off. Dance in the middle of the fighting. Dance in your blood. Dance when you’re perfectly free.”
― Rumi
An INFJ needs noise canceling headphones, and a playlist, and to be left alone while the music soaks in and salves the soul. It is restoration. I don’t know how I would survive without music. Musicians are my saving grace, that I may be soothed and be able to move into Creative Fe.
Thought I’d share this song that I use as a quickie reset, if I have very little time to quiet myself.
https://youtu.be/kWzuLAHnGBQ
TinyYellowTree,
“An INFJ needs noise cancelling headphones, and a playlist, and to be left alone while the music soaks in and salves the soul. It is restoration. I don’t know how I would survive without music.”
Absolutely! The only thing I’d disagree with is: “Musicians are my saving grace.”
Music is my saving grace, but musicians are quite another matter for me. I find I must separate the art from the artist and indulge one and avoid close association with the other. Of course, I’ve only known ISFP musicians. Lovely people and highly attractive, but more so from a distance. I find that I’ve grown quite far sighted in my old age. LOL
I guess I should have said ‘music’ just because I have very little real time experience with musicians, like no boyfriends, just passing musical events. I value their art. And yes, swoon at their ability to move me, but mostly I am absorbed by the music filling me. I could see falling for someone just because of the way their music made me feel, but I fall easily for soulful hearts. And by fall I mean admire and adore from a distance, being married and all.
He shows conscious sublimated Fi ness ….
But shows unconscious inferior feeling in communication…..
He shows more flexibility than intj. More Ne? Ne id….. He threw away a whole degree due to one last credit because he has enough Se to know he can pursue a new avenue. Ne Id entrepreneurial strength.
I think this dude is entj. Explains everything.
🙂
Dude…………
He does have something on same continuum as Chef Ramsey, Mick Jagger……
He is dark and SENTIMENTAL and a “badass face”.
If entj cannot write lyrics, then this dude is intj….. Only thing that makes sense.
Listen to The Wall sometime. That is mostly a Waters solo album in terms of writing (even though the rest of the members of Pink Floyd played on it). The Wall is pure INFJ. Not INTJ. Definitely not ENTJ. The reason this dude builds a wall around himself is because of all the harshness of the world starting with his father’s death in WW2 when he was a little boy. This is an INFJ theme. INFJs often build walls of stone around them in order to protect their very deep and sensitive emotions.
Rogers is the exact kind of INFJ I talk about who is a healthy INFJ. He has EXPRESSED voluminously and eloquently his pain and heartbreak. He has largely come to terms with the world via Fe expression.
Plus, he is British. He has that typical British dryness and harshness. I won’t argue that he has a rather dry and cutting British sensibility.
He is also kind of snobby and elitist. I think many INFJs spend a lot of time trying to hide how snobby and elitist they truly feel inside. Waters doesn’t. I think at this point in his life he feels fully justified in letting it all hang out. He’s like “Hey dude, I wrote The Fucking Wall and Dark Side of The Moon. Fuck off.”
Ok . I will keep trying to see that. 🙂 I came to see it clearly with Annie Clark even the id moment on the radio interview. Jeff Buckley was scary obvious. Nick Cave was really clear too. I am still struggling with Riger Waters.
Blake, could the Fi Id also account for the INFJ dark sense of humour?
Roger Waters dry British wit is one example, but it is also there to some degree in the lyrics of the other INFJ artists. I see it most of all in the works of Leonard Cohen: his wry observations on life and love serve to gently soften the edges of the dark and bleak subjects he writes about in his songs.
Blake, could the Fi Id also account for the INFJ dark sense of humour?
Yes, Fi Scorpio absolutely = black humour.
@ Rita
Yes. I thought about it afterward and I can see both could be possible. For ex, most people love their kids even if before kids they couldn’t stand kids. So you can love what you think is your tribe and despise what is not your tribe. Also love can turn to hate before you are even aware of it.
That is the suckifying part about some kinds of “love.” Maybe it really isn’t love if it can turn so easily to hate. What is love anyway? I would say respect beats love about any day. Maybe not in the immediate warm fuzzy floaty “falling” in love kind of way, but in the long run and on a regular basis humanity might be better off with a little less love and whole lot more respect in their interpersonal exchanges. Kurt Vonnegut: “love may fail, but courtesy will prevail.” Simple, but I like it and see it as fairly true.
Hi Rita,
Lovely afternoon, yes?
I see you differentiating between different kinds of love and suggesting that the love so closely related to hate is perhaps not love. And then, you ask “What is love anyway?” May I ask what you think love is? And, I understand how general of a question this is, because, well, it’s meant to be.
Thanks for playing…
“What is love anyway?”
Yeah…. don’t ask me I got no idea really. Every such concept will look completely unreal to me on a regular basis.
Well Erika,
I will take a deep breath and do my best. “Love is a many splendored thing.” LOL! Or maybe, love is a many splintered thing.
Anyway, there is obviously all kinds of love that people feel and display. There is the romantic, the platonic, the chivalrous, the devoted,the parental, the protective, and so on. Love can go unrequited or it can be shared and expressed and returned. Love is or can be either felt and/or it can be expressed through word and deed. There is self love, other love, love for art, love for humanity, love for God, and love for a child, a dog, a garden, a place, or a love of learning . It is a band aide word that covers the multi-directional aspects pretty incompletely. It can heal or it can be an excuse for injury. It can be gentle, warm, and expansive. It can be hard, self serving, and projected and exclusive and singular. It is so many things that accurately defining it is hard. Unlike respect, which can also be multi-directional. However, if respect is utilized and expressed properly the ebbs and flow of such a misty swirling emotional concept as love can be made more whole and functionally effective. Respect for self, respect for the other in heart, head, deed, and word can go a long way. It is the element that too often is missing, in my not always as humble as it should be opinion, to heal what ails the world. Am I there? Not even. I only try but it is what I have found that works best if love is to flourish and not flash and die and be replaced by hatred or exhibited in an us vs. them mentality.
In short, I don’t know. These days I pay more attention to respect is all.
Rita, you have no idea how much i love and respect your comment 🙂
I think of love as benevolent goodwill, but it doesn’t have true direction. It just radiates and pours if you let it. It is more a fuel/energy source than a container. Therefore, something like respect is a good container or funnel to channel love.
Respect as a channel, without anything to channel (e.g. empty gestures), is probably just as useless.
Prax,
I like your comment. It is yin/yang I guess. Love has never been hard for me. It is just there. It is something I don’t even think to address, but structuring it and containing it for useful purpose and moderating some of the spilled love effect from others…well, that has been my challenge. I’ve seen love act like gasoline on a floor that gets ignited. Sometimes it is can be like an inert gas too. At least the container (respect) even when empty does no harm unless a disrespectful person trips over it. That’s on them. I agree it may not be particularly useful by itself. I see the two working best together, but if I had to have a preference for one over the other – I’d choose respect. Love is a passion of some sort and that is necessary. Directing and structuring that passion into something purposeful is the challenge (as I see it). Maybe it is like a Te minimum for me. I don’t know. I see both the positive and negative effects of love on a daily basis everywhere around me. Structure in the form of respect seems to be so often missing. Respect may not be sexy, but it is so beautiful when that aspect gets put into use.
Piggie,
Lol! Here’s to respect and love. I’m cheering you with a cup of coffee.
By the way, I found the exchange about ENFJs highly satisfying and enlightening and you helped me to solidify my understanding of this type. Thank you.
@ Rita
Yeah. I especially agree that for INFJ, they already have that well of love in their Fi id, so their main tool should be their Fe to structure all that energy.
Respect, as with many successful structures, do a good job at self-perpetuating, meaning it can help build up better systems, a better world, etc. Though I think without the benevolent goodwill aspect, what respect can turn into instead is something that just holds up the status quo. e.g. “Respectability Politics”.
I don’t really wanna bring up equity/social justice talk because that’s a big can of worms (esp for infj haha!), but that’s what this reminded of a little bit.
You can tell people that respect should be used more often, but you know.. the world.. is probably going to misuse it. Tell people what tool to use and they still end up using it wrong or shoving it in places where it don’t fit. lol
*At* Rita,
You say some very interesting things. Love has never been hard for you, eh?
“Love is a passion of some sort…”
I would like to disagree with you here. I do not see love as a passion at all. And actually, I like to compare love to what Blake keeps repeating – “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”
It’s what we search for all of our lives, because it takes a lifetime. So, the question is, what is a lifetime? That probably just depends on each of us. Our development. Are you a present motherfucker? Or do you have your head in the clouds, waiting to die. It just all depends…
Sorry, for some reason this site brings the profanity out in me. I swear, I’m a sweet girl.
Anyways, I would like to inquire about why you feel love is a passion of some sort. May you continue, please?
Prax,
I hear you about respectability politics. Ugh! Also, you are so right about handing people a tool and find that they then misunderstand and misuse it. I am highly aware of that one. People can be so daft (me too), but overly concrete and black and white in their thinking that I can definitely relate to what you say. I groan at all of the times I’ve observed that very thing.
If I were to explain it to a very concrete thinking person on a very micro level, I’d use the work of John Gottman to illustrate it. He talks about a 5 to 1 ratio of positive sentiments or respectful expressions to negate the effect of 1 negative statement. It seems the human brain is geared to privilege the negative for survival purposes. We depend on paying attention to negative or threatening data to avoid danger. Love gone rotten will send off alarm bells and cause people to do things like push, pull away, or dig in. Another way to put it, they do fight, flight, or freeze as if they were in the war zone. The 5/1 ratio of positive to negative causes what Gottman refers to as “negative sentiment override.” So, if a mostly loving child or spouse suddenly snaps at you, you don’t go automatically to the war zone, but pause and recognize “he/she is stressed out because __________” and you recognize this little outburst is a bid for assistance, understanding, or something more neutral than the person is just attacking you out of nowhere so you gear up with your defenses, armor, and arsenal of emotional weapons to volley back their way. But as simple as all that is even on the very small scale, people muck it up. Hey, “I complimented him 5 times yesterday and only insulted him once, yet he is still not speaking to me
Whoops, I accidentally hit the send button. Or my dog did. I think that was a bid from him to be walked! 😉
Well, when you inquire about the compliments vs. negative messages or feedback, a person will describe some very hollow sounding expressions of gratitude or superficial compliments. Then you ask what the negative statement was and it will be a doozy! “I told him it is no mystery why I don’t want sex with him, because his penis is too small and he is a weak and worthless pig!” The 5/1 will certainly not override that kind of negative sentiment. It is hard to bounce back from that.
Erika,
Regarding “love is a passion” disagreement. It may be a matter of semantics because so often we associate passion with the romantic and sexual. I mean it is sort of an emotional driver to action. Maybe like fuel a kind of fuel. It is a kind of energy. See what I mean that love is hard to define and explain because it is one word that is supposed to cover a plethora of emotional human energy, emotion, and expression. Too much is asked of the word “love” perhaps. Still, it is behind of so much of the stuff we humans seem to cherish, live, and die for.
I am secretly delighted if Rogers is infj. I find him interesting in part because I thought he could be entj:):)
Infjs of stellar maze, question: how unusual an infj does it make Rogers that he 1) was a bully growing up so he claims (well even that is hearsay in the sense that he could just be saying that), 2) liked sports growing up
I know a male infj who beat someone up in high school, but he did it to put someone in their place who had been a bully. Different. The way I interpreted it, he really got overwhelmed by witnessing the constant bullying he had to do something. The idea of a young infj bully is interesting to me.
From wikipedia, “Though he was a keen sportsman and a highly regarded member of the high school’s cricket and rugby teams,[13] he disliked his educational experience; according to Waters, “I hated every second of it, apart from games.” Is that unusual for an infj to enjoy the sports so much?
One more thing… he studied architecture first due to some aptitudes test that he took whose results suggested this would be a good choice. What kind of a test would this be and what kind of results would suggest architecture???
He seems high on energy. I find that fun. When asked why he built the wall on the Howard Stern show, he pretty much flew out of his seat to imitate an annoying audience member:) Funny:)
The fact that he turned to suing his fellow band members…. is that unusual for an infj? Very aggressive and power wielding?
He sound so energetic. He nearly got a degree (short just one credit) in architecture, had started working some job related to that, and was also on the side doing some music.
So I’ve been debating between infj intj entj and settle for infj in this way:
He shows too much flexibility in conversation to be intj. Itjs aren’t super flexible in conversation due to their need to eliminate from consideration what they don’t want to pay attention to without having Fe to soften that tendency or hide annoyance.
If you look at photographs of infjs as a collective, what you see is people who seem to embody being human in a timeless way, who say “hello” in an intimate inviting shy way… especially 20 year old infjs. If you look at photographs of entjs as a collective, what you see is people who seem open to life, ready to seize it, give it to me, I can handle it, I smile etc, almost carefree in a sense due to their sheer ability.
On that axis, from the interviews and his youthful photos, Rogers seems to fall into the infj side. :):)
A thought just popped into my head.
INFJs and ISFJs both have Fi Ids. So, I assume that ISFJs’ id would also a Scorpio/Pisces component. However, would it be different for them? Would Pisces still be the deep id or would it be reverse?
Yes, ISFJ would be the other type that has an Fi id. However, for them it is reversed – Scorpio is deep id and Fi Pisces is the positive and lighter manifestation of it.
But woe to anyone who crosses an ISFJ in the throes of their deep Scorpio id. The best illustration of this dynamic that I can think of is from cinema in the movie Amadeus (one of the best films I have ever seen). It’s about Mozart and another composer that deeply envies him (Salieri). On the surface, Salieri pretends that he is on Mozart’s side in the conflicts he has with the musical authorities in the Viennese court, but, he secretly wants to utterly destroy Mozart and succeeds in doing so by pseudonymously commissioning him to write a requiem mass.
So, Salieri’s character is ISFJ. A very beautiful character in many ways, but, a hopeless mediocrity who cannot understand how Mozart is able to compose such transcendent music, while he who has dedicated his life to god so that he may be able to write music to celebrate god’s glory is totally eclipsed by this profane Mozart.
Also, I must note that F. Murray Abraham’s performance in this movie as Salieri is THE BEST PERFORMANCE by any actor in any movie that I have ever seen. It is an absolutely moving and transcendent performance of a character that loves music so much but cannot express this divine glory that only he hears in Mozart’s music. He so loves each of Mozart’s compositions, but, must destroy him.
Such pathos. Such beauty.
This movie is utterly moving to me. And it tells us something about this dark Scorpio side of human nature that F. Murray Abraham so wonderfully depicts in this wonderful movie.
Very tragic. Very moving.
A man who is virtuous and has worked hard to get to the position of court composer in the city of music, Vienna. He has devoted his whole life to god so that he just may be a mouthpiece to celebrate the glory of god through music. A man of deep feeling and a responsible man. A devout man.
And then Mozart comes along and makes this man of god dedicated to destroying this true mouthpiece of the divine simply because god chose Mozart (a profane child) instead of Salieri who has made such sacrifices and worked hard to be where he is.
So, he turns against god’s creation and decides that he will destroy god’s creation. And all while keeping a smiling and gracious face on the surface.
Wicked shit.
See the movie if you want to see what an ISFJ in the throes of deep Scorpio id looks like. I can think of no better example of it, nor a more moving one.
Did you mean woe if you cross an isfj? I saw that movie, and thought it was intense in a way that goes over my head:) so perverse:):)
Yeah, that’s what I meant. Fucking type codes.
Blake thanks for the mention of this film and sharing your take. What you said makes so much sense.
Salieri is an ISFJ in the movie Amadeus and he is opporating straight out of his id state.I love that film and F. Murray Abraham’s performance was top notch. That was quite a display of the toxic soup of passive aggressiveness that seems to be lurking under some ISFJs. It was just ratcheted up to diabolical levels. The sacred and profane that needs to be balanced is at war because the denial of one for the preference of the other. To do so causes an opposing overblown reaction and is projected outwardly onto an “enemy” instead of being acknowledged and addressed from within. Quite powerful on multiple levels this film. Maybe time to revisit it. Thanks for the reminder of a favorite film.
Can this id be soothed and addressed in an honoring manner to avoid its destructive nature? Does the id need to be starved and neglected or do we feed it? If we feed it does it just grow fatter and greedier? We can’t feed it exactly what it wants or it will destroy its host, but is there some nutritious replacement much as you would replace the cookies and candy a toddler wants with nutritious fare like produce. So, in the case of an ISFJ, how would they manage this destructive id? You always say that INFJs need to employ Fe and ISFJ shares Fe, but if this is the answer, how might an ISFJ go about uniquely utilizing theirs?
Well, there are a lot of questions here and you may not have time to address them all here or perhaps you may be planning a future article/s about this. If you can only answer one question, I’d ask how an ISFJ may utilize their auxiliary for their own brand of magic? For instance, what might Soliari have done differently to avert the overthrow of himself by his id?
For instance, what might Soliari have done differently to avert the overthrow of himself by his id?
You know, it is interesting, there were some beautiful moments of true rapport and friendship between these two characters in the film. Like, for example, I found the moments where they were collaborating on the requiem mass together quite touching, even though the reason that Salieri had commissioned the piece of music to be written (in diguise) was for Mozart’s funeral (O, the irony), but, still Salieri in a sense is the one who can really understand Mozart’s music. He feels Mozart’s music as if it is god speaking to him.
So, anyway, that last scene where Mozart has collapsed from exhaustion (because of trying to write the requiem mass while also writing and performing another commissioned work, The Magic Flute) and Salieri takes him back to his house (Mozart’s house) and they have some very intimate moments together and Mozart asks Salieri if he could help him finish the requiem mass. Salieri is humbled by this request. He says he couldn’t because Mozart is on a different level of musical understanding than him. Anyway, I get quite an intimate feeling in watching Salieri as he struggles to understand Mozart’s dying dictations to him. It is during this (almost) final scene that Salieri tells Mozart that he is the greatest composer known to him. You can sense a love between these two men. Something beautiful.
You know what Salieri could have done differently is have been a true friend and disciple of Mozart. Salieri had a unique understanding and feeling for Mozart’s music, though, he couldn’t make music on that divinely inspired level. It was partly because Mozart was such a infantile child (at least as portrayed in the movie) that he was able to make music that was close to god or inspired.
Personally, I think Salieri had a very beautiful and refined character in this movie. He just didn’t have genius. He was a very talented and interesting person, in many ways superior to Mozart.
He could have genuinely helped Mozart as he said he would do. He had the political influence to help Mozart gain influence in the court. Mozart was arguably one of the first artists that made art in the Romantic sense (as a mouthpiece of the divine). Salieri could grasp this and saw the inferior understanding of the official artistic deciders at the court, but, simply because Salieri desired so much to be the one that was the mouthpiece of god and that Mozart was in every other respect besides his music, an uncouth and infantile child, Salieri decided to smite God’s creation. He basically decided to destroy and profane god through his creation out of a selfish desire to be the vessel for the sacred music that he could hear in Mozart’s compositions.
And there is also a certain narrow-mindedness and propriety in Salieri about what he thinks the form of this genius that he hears in Mozart’s music should take. It certainly couldn’t be a man like Mozart (childish infant) that could make such sublime music.
So, the higher id of ISFJ is the Fi Pisces one. That is positive id for ISFJ. This involves being “truly nice”. “Truly kind”. “Truly compassionate”. You name it. ISFJs are capable of beautiful sentiments and impulses.
Their achilles heel is very much this mutinous Scorpio id impulse. Um, think of Judas secretly betraying Jesus. I think that pretty much sums up an ISFJ in this deep Scorpio id.
There is something very profound about ISFJs that is hardly understood.
Blake,
Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response. I was very genuinely moved by your words. Your words had music and heartfelt meaning in them. I am genuinely grateful for helping me to understand the difference.
All your words were helpful but these helped me to understand their particular battle:
So, the higher id of ISFJ is the Fi Pisces one. That is positive id for ISFJ. This involves being “truly nice”. “Truly kind”. “Truly compassionate”. You name it. ISFJs are capable of beautiful sentiments and impulses.
Yes, they are. At their best they are unbeatable in their capacity to care for humanity. They are princes and princesses of service and devotion in these roles. It is a thing of beauty. Maybe the current Pope would be an example of this. I don’t know. I’m neither Catholic nor religious, but there is something beautiful about that man as I and many others see him. Perhaps Eleanor Roosevelt would be another example. Jimmy Carter seems to carry a continued vision of providing service to the common man. Whether one likes his politics or doesn’t, he seems sincere and to care in a world that doesn’t give a flying fig outside of making it look good and polished. At their worst, they are quite poisonous like a sweet voiced Nurse Ratched. Not that that character was probably a twisted ISFJ, but her sweet faced and voiced outer self did not match her control freak, competitive inner self. She couldn’t tolerate anything out of her neat and tidy framework. Well, we may differ as to these possible ISFJs or my examples of their possible expressions, but these people do seem to include what I imagine is the best of an ISFJ and in the fictional character’s case — the worst.
@Rita
You should let Blake answer the whole Fe for isfjs question, but I do want to mention that I have noticed that SOME isfjs need to express VERBALLY and (usually in quite some detail as to what happened) how they feel to a confidente. They really benefit from a nonjudgemental 3rd ear (like for ex, if the conflict is between them and one other person, they need to talk to a third person). They want to just unload those intense feelings and slowly work the stuff out.
Infps tend to work things out on the inside and really SIT with the feelings until they “place it” and makes sense. I don’t know if isfjs do this. But since Fi is in their id… it will just be a lot ?scarier or wait more painful? for them.
Salieri’s envy is something I see to a milder degree in istjs…. Like they do find it irritating if someone seems to be cruising by or grabbing luck with finer tuned antennas or talent where they worked so damm hard. But they let it dissipate on the inside. That envy is contained and turns into a quiet sense of disappointment….my impression… Probably all way off Teehee
I don’t see ISTJs as envious or resentful deep inside. Irritable perhaps. Grumbly and misanthropic, sure. But, ISTJs are pretty much what they appear to be. Which kind of sucks. I mean, can’t they cover up what they are to make it more palatable or something. Gee whiz.
No, all kidding aside. I see ISTJs as one of the more above-board of types. Pretty honest and forthright about the things they see..not that they see much…but, they are honest about it.
ISFJs have this whole other complex layer of covertness and secrecy via the two forms of the feeling function. ISTJs don’t do that shit at all.
@Blake
“Like, for example, I found the moments where they were collaborating on the requiem mass together quite touching, even though the reason that Salieri had commissioned the piece of music to be written (in diguise) was for Mozart’s funeral (O, the irony), but, still Salieri in a sense is the one who can really understand Mozart’s music.”
Very interesting. Makes me want to rewatch..
You’ve been making think about the expression “to kill with kindness…..”
Actually everything is mixing in my head in loony ways:) because I just watched a Herzog film where a warden described giving those sentenced to death their last meals, which to me is a very disgusting thing about death row.
I struggle to understand isfjs. Infjs make more sense to me due to their special ability to make themselves “seen”. I mean they can reveal “glimpses” when they please and do so beautifully in a way really well suited to whoever is there. I love me some infjs:)
Isfjs are truly kind as you describe especially to their children. But they have these aspects such as telling you very insulting and rude things kindly. Or cooking you a meal at all times no matter how other things are or whether you asked for it that you feel almost devitalized rather than revitalized. I’ve also seen things where an isfj sees some convenient/cheapish reason to end a relationship and just does it, to me it looks like betrayal. Then when it’s convenient to start it up again, the kindnesses start over. These are just the undertones….
Devitalizing rather than vitalizing.
This Salieri story is like some crazy deviation and exaggeration of this thing where “to your face” they are just kind and servant. They can’t do otherwise.
I think that is probably just a personality clash with you, because you feel the pull of “obligation” coming from ISFJs when they use Fe with you, maybe in some way intruding in your Fi sense of self by trying to get a reciprocal action out of you.
I imagine for many INFP, this kind of social obligation can feel like a “trap”.
Like maybe Si => Fe is a very gravity-like feeling, bogged in memory, detail, the past. While Ni => Fe from INFJ at least sometimes feels like floating/sucked up into space (more future possibility focused, or abstract) so it’s closer to your preference of freedom to be yourself?
So while other people may find Si => Fe grounding, comforting, familiar, and predictable, you will experience it like a tedious drag/anchor from which you want to escape.
I am mostly making things up, but this is how I process things: via impressions. lol
@Prax
I am not sure how bad a clash it is, but it is a clash of some kind and I think I am just overall a difficult person:)
I do find Si plus Fe grounding because it is like a mother of sorts and very smooth and tangible. That post was me talking about a particular vibe I feel from Isfjs.
Well I have one in my family do you have one in yours?
I don’t believe reciprocation is the problem.
Imagine watering a plant and pruning it so much that you go too far. I feel that way around isfjs sometimes. It is nurture for sure and that is very sweet. But sometimes it is too much like it seems their own need at some point.
Ah. I sound really mean.
My mother may be ISFJ. My sister may be too. They are supposedly the most typical of the types for a woman to be, so it would make sense if there were. My impression is that they are nitpicky but a bit ever-suffering in their service to people. (An overall virgo vibe, maybe.)
You are explaining it like smothering in an oblivious-to-your-actual-feelings kind of way, that maybe it serves their own interests but using you as an outlet. I know you want to be nice about their overall “good intentions”, but to me it still sounds like you don’t like it because it feels controlling. That a certain reaction is expected of you that you don’t know how to give or want to give (and then maybe you feel bad for thinking this and being rude lol).
I don’t think you sound mean or ungrateful, even if you worry you might appear that way, but I am pretty aloof about this stuff.. haha. I think it’s easier just to take it as mismatched ways of communicating. A lot of the INFP I know like sitting around thinking fondly about their loved ones with only vague notions that maybe they should be actively showing their loved ones how fond they are of them, performing routine maintenance on their relationships. Fe is very good at doing routine maintenance to make sure relationships remain intact, while Fi is probably more content with their feelings being crystallized and at least intact in their minds and therefore don’t seem as reliably reciprocal. That kind of thing probably leads to a lot of Fe-Fi miscommunication.
@claire1091348
My few close friends are INFPs and I always wished I could be so emotionally grounded and pleasantly aloof to things in my environment as they seem to be. Being an INFJ in this world seems tough.
I keep seeing some infjs that say this:) And some infps wish they could be infjs since we strive to understand as an inner drive…. that is never satiated, and you guys just seem to understand so much better and then be able to sometimes leave a mark that utilizes the knowledge (more useful). Being aloof is kind of sucky. To me it’s a weakness FLAT OUT. So many times I notice a building I have driven past each day and can’t believe others who say it was always there. Or, things don’t feel REAL like they are actually there, including people. Things get lost. Or style or influence, how does one do this???? There was a dish washer at home that it didn’t occur to me to use till after living 2 years there…… this is even with kids in the house… but the worst form of aloofness is when it involves those people we are trying to understand….. just terrible.
Love is an energy that motivates you to do well by others tend to them let them grow share moments value them value their dreams value them for who they are etc. or even leave a piece of cake for them. It can be love of your kid or love of your fellow mankind. Love is what lets you appreciate those things that when you lose a loved one you miss those things. When you lose a loved one you don’t rack your brain so much you know what you loved about that individual. You loved THEM. This is universal. When you see all the disasters on this planet it is very upsetting because we are all the same as far as love goes. When people freak over all Muslims as if all people in an entire country could be one way so different from us it is really sad. Where is the compassion.
On a daily basis what is love? I think that is actually a sort of different question….. I don’t think love is minute by minute. That is where the totality of who you are where you live what you inherited from your family who it is you love comes into play. It becomes more about intelligence of interpersonal connection at some point. Can you be good to each other, can you truly witness the other, help them grow or at least not hold them back. Can you do this effectively?
Also everyone can love a person but not be able to be loving at all times. Or respectful at all times. Whatever word we want to use. It cannot be at all times. Not possible. Or at least that is a very high standard. And love is not always the answer etc.
You know when one says to parents “be good enough”. That kind of thing. Well same in other relationships, especially past the crazy lust phase:) in romantic relationships.
Love is that part where you know there is good enough and feel cherished. But there needs to be a back and forth feedback cycle.
@Piggie
Unreliable is a great way to describe Fi thank you for putting it so simply.
It often disappoints Fe users because it causes them pain to give a stroke and the Fi user is all not knowing what to do to give a stroke back, well you know it might also cause Fi users pain. What Blake said in the culture of like article… People just want to Receive the like of others=Fe. To varying degrees. I mean Fe can be annoying when it is too reflexive without understanding but to receive warmth and connective glue=yes for most people.
I think it is chemical. On my good days I do the Fe thing with a flow (I mean nothing like all you Fe users). But on bad chemical days I am consumed with a feeling unrelated to the person in front of me and it is wearing me down. I have nothing left to give. You guys are more giving. And I don’t know why:)
Your example of the relative speeds with your infp and esfj is very good. There is truth to Fi being slow and inappropriately timed. And this is so even with inferior Fi. I just watched a video of an estj prof giving a motivation speech but something in the reference to her personal life hit a sentimental spot and her feelings just welled up during her and tears came out. But she pulled herself together and completed the speech. However she looked sad as she continued. Fi kind of can well up like that from deep and then lingers longer.
Fe is more cerebral when it is the connective glue aspect. It is a type of intelligence accompanied by goodwill and a good feeling. I wish I had it:) Fe amazes me.
Fi is sometimes also what you would call reliable. Picture the Fi of say an istj. They stand by their word. They have integrity. Often similar in an intj. Intj love can be an act of utmost responsibility and “fair mindedness”.
Maybe it is because of that “perfect amount” Blake alludes to.
Story: when I realized someone I love is nfj I thought oh no….. They will give up on me and I will lose them. I was thinking about the Fi Fe conflict. They won’t see my Fi and suffer (since we all love Fe ) then give up. It hasn’t happened yet but I fear it. Two worries: the Fi is boring to their Ni and their Fe hurts. This has happened before. We are unreliable. It is true.
“But on bad chemical days I am consumed with a feeling unrelated to the person in front of me and it is wearing me down. I have nothing left to give. You guys are more giving.”
I think i understand.. I feel that way at times too and i just switch off.. And Fe feels like a burden during that period..
I do find Fi very reliable in the sense that i can trust what it says and there’s a permanence to its effect.. The difference is comparable to watching an easy happy movie vs a thoughtful and deeply moving movie.. One doesn’t demand much from the viewer and it might leave you with a burst of positive energy but is most likely to be forgotten in a day or two.. The other isn’t easy to absorb and might not be comprehensible on days you aren’t feeling up to it, but has the ability to change the rest of your life if you catch it on a good day..
Hmm.. I don’t know lunar.. Personally, i haven’t let go of both my INFPs.. They’re both girls.. It was magic the first time we spoke.. It still feels like magic every single time.. I’ve not been bored by them this far.. And yes, we have had some conflicts in the past which were caused by too much love, if there’s such a thing.. All of us have a hard time admitting our fears, but when we do, things fall into place.. I try to be more expressive than normal to let them know that i know how they feel.. It makes things easier.. And there ain’t no way i’m letting them go.. I don’t know about male-female dynamics and other NFJs but that’s how it is for me 🙂
@Lml519
Interesting link you shared.
I relate to that infp and it is a bit scary to me that if someone is being nice to me they could be simultaneously disliking me deep inside. I would get really paranoid, but probably also thankful that we can keep on pretending… hmmm.
About holding grudges… I have trouble with definitions. There are two Fe users in my family who announced to me they don’t hold grudges when I apologized for something. So I was like okay. My bad.
Well, they have brought up the thing way long after:( . So it is true that often people won’t forget. And I think Fi Fe there is no difference about that really. We are feelers we get hurt and we remember getting hurt, we hold a grudge easily.
What I would say though about Fi, is that once as an Fi I have worked out my feelings I think I let it go. I go so inward and just dissect the feelings to pieces and imagine like crazy being the other person (probably completely inaccurately) and just come to a really neutral place feeling wise even though the journey to that point is awful (why IFPs often look way too distracted). Especially if I value the relationship I will do that work. Fi is our MAIN process. But it is so ridiculously slow the process because one has to go inward and sit with it. I don’t have that Ni knowing. I have that Ni id do I really know it thing instead but eventually I force it to come to a rest because I can still settle the feelings somehow by looking at them. But what I have noticed about Fe users is sometimes they deny existence of Fi inner feelings to others and they aren’t truly letting it go they are just letting it build up inside. Well this is just sometimes.
Actually… the letting go of feelings via Fi exploration can take a loong time and so Fi sometimes can’t be bothered. Has to be that the relationship matters.
So holding grudges is one of those expressions that I feel can be seen in many ways. Holding it in the moment (that day) or over a long period of time deeper down? Is something deep down even an actual grudge? Etc etc. Does a grudge that comes from refusing to do the work count less than an active grudge etc. on and on?
I don’t really think Fi for sure trumps Fe for holding grudges. Feelers be feelers getting hurt:) But in the moment, I think Fi looks more grudgy probably:)
@Lml519
I could relate to your comments. Fe looks like a superpower for getting what you want and still looking good and having the blessing of others. I would like 2cups of magic Fe potion:)
I think you are idealizing it quite a bit, but I understand why. Just remember every function makes somethings very easy and other things very hard. Nothing is a magic bullet. Except for the auxiliary 😉
@Lml519
Ah I broke my own 7 day self ban on day 1….
Beebe says Fe= affirming, validating, relating
I know these 3 things are universally enjoyed by people.
I think that is why I idealize it. To have Fe in top 3 is really awesome:) But of course then you don’t have Fi whatever that is good for.
I mean Fi and Fe take care of some of the same things anyway. Sometimes I try to turn an Fe value into an Fi value. I do the hmwk to make it an Fi value. But to freely easily give warmth in the moment is so difficult for me. That is where all the hmwk in the world seems to not make a difference. I am really stuck with the expressive part. Fe does something else that I can’t imagine being able to do. Someone is in front of you is down. An Fe-savvy will say something really quickly that has a great chance of making the person feel a bit better. Especially if done with understanding not too reflexively. That is amazing! To be Fi and sit there and wondering what to say…. and be so slow with the expressing.
It’s alright….. Fi has its own merits too. I think Fi means you don’t have to have a definition to think through something. It is a thinking process of some kind that doesn’t use the typical logic. It is interesting.
I don’t really know what you mean by your last paragraph and I don’t see the strengths of Fi related to anything about thinking….I think you’re just referring to how Fi takes a long time to process things.
It’s actually bewildering to me that you favor Fe so much over Fi. Like, it’s like you think that Fe automatically means this glowing adoration from everyone around you.
Eh, maybe that’s what it looks like. My Fe user friends are definitely very well liked. But that’s also cause they go out of their way to like others. Distribution of energy in a wide but shallower sense. I admire that a lot sure and I’ve learned from them quite a bit. But I also notice the trade offs.
It’s said that Fe users have less intimate friendships and I think that’s quite true, based on my observations. “What is Fi good for” is subjective and my subjective two cents is that I’ve had some incredible friendships and relationships cos of my Fi dominance, and they have been very mutually nurturing and deep in way that I just don’t see typically happen in other relationships. The kind of bonds that breathes love and meaning into life and carries you.
That and people trust me fairly easily and confide in me. Particularly those with strong Fe, funnily enough. I think its partly cos they know I won’t blab.
Oh yeah, that’s the other thing about Fe. It’s very gossipy. Which is a natural byproduct of a “we feel” mentality.
That’s why I’m very careful and selective about what I share with strong/higher level Fe users. Facts you share about yourself have to be tagged with an explicit request for confidentiality otherwise they are entered into the public database of people knowledge from which the Fe user may disseminate tidbits to another. It’s not necessarily malicious; sometimes they share something about someone else to relate to an experience you’ve had, but I’m pretty strict and obsessive about my privacy by nature.
I’d be lying though if I said I don’t enjoy indulging in the delicious gossip from time to time. K, end tangent!
@Lml519
Hi, no, actually the being liked is not that important to me. Well I do want to be liked by the ones I like. That is very important to me. But just to be generally liked by all I don’t think about that.
I know I sound like I favor Fe over Fi. You know what? I think I don’t see Fi a lot because it is who I am. And it is hard to me to understand it.
Okay sooooo……. what is about Fe. Well I have an important relationship with an Fe inferior person. This person gets into a desperate situation where he begs for confirmation of love (like he will go insane if the confirmation isn’t there he feels lost and actually gets locked into that state (Fe grip)). It is so incredibly sad to me that I just get bewildered……. and he senses NO help from me whatsoever because well I don’t deliver. Fi seems to be of no help:(
So I guess that is the deep reason behind my Fe admiration. There are Fe-savvys that could take care of this person in probably 5 minutes. Situation resolved. People feeling good. That is the magic of Fe for me. Just magic. Also Fe allows you to “read” people. But Fe is actual reading in real time. I have an accuracy problem all through my life about what people are actually going through.
I do think of Fi as a “kind of thinking” process that is interesting. I told Blake once that Fi to me is like having lots lots of “alignment rods” in my head. All day long everything’s distance to the relevant alignment rod is sensed. It is like a valuation by comparison to an ideal. I have lots of these rods. It is very intricate. This process is refined but if someone asks me it comes out “good” or “bad” when turned into language so I sound like a simpleton, so it is actually very difficult to describe inner life. Because I am not putting good or bad labels on everything. Rather I am constantly adjusting ideals and distances from ideals. About everything. All day long. The ideals can be pieces of understanding. It is imagery with inner sensation. Si works in there somehow. Okay, for example, there is metaphorical sliding going on. I sense some ideal, and move a slider left and right on what is before me to see if there can be a match or if there is a mismatch, how do you adjust the whole etc etc. Does this resonate with how you experience Fi (I would LOVE to hear)?
One thing I “think” about almost any free minute is a few people I care about (this is NOT about feelings or love when that is what I do it is some kind of insatiable curiosity/obsession?) what is it like to be them. I keep adjusting these impressions to ideal impression of who they are. Like the ideal is the best impression I can make of them (I refine the ideal) then new impressions come in and they get compared to the ideal. Etc. Lots of measuring distances in a sense. This feels very thinking at times. I know I was able to use Fi in math for example. As well as Ne. Fi would prime me to pick up on beauty, elegance, form. In the final analysis I would have to then use Te and Ti. But Fi and Ne could get me started quite far.
So Fi is a kind of thinking that uses no language. I think. Anyhow let all the corrections descend upon me.
Lunar,
Your description of Fi seems to perfectly describe what the introverted judging process looks like.
As for me, I don’t know that I can provide you a mental, insider’s look at how I experience Fi in the day to day. Like you said, it is just who I am so I don’t really think about it that much. Thinking about it is a strenuous exercise because it just gets so meta.
I dono, I experience it as a pure burst of emotion. Like when Blake said in a few articles back about how INFP’s are happiest when they give freely, I can totally identify with that. And for me it’s most connected with gift giving. The times when I’ve poured my heart and soul into a gift, which usually makes use of my artistic and creative abilities, are the times when I just felt like there was a well of bottomless and infinite light within me. That would be in the positive.
In the negative…instant, swift, get the fuck away from me repulsion. I don’t even choose the reaction, it just happens. For instance, I don’t watch shows like House of Cards or Game of Thrones (trying to change my mind on the second). Sociopathy is not entertainment to me. This is just an instinctive conclusion, and clearly it’s not based on the legions of accolades these shows have collected.
As for your personal relationship with someone who’s Fe inferior, may I give you a suggestion…If you know this is a pattern to be expected in this person, prepare in advance what you will say in this situation. Better yet, put it in writing. <—-That's typically where I find my Fi comforting/reassurance gifts to lie. Or if you want to deal with this in real time, like I said, just script it in your head. Something that's honest but that will also provide the appropriate comfort. If you take enough time to think about it, you will come up with it. And if you feel comfortable, I would also advise touch (laying a gentle hand on them.
@ Lml519
Yes introverted judging:) I was always able to relate to Ti even though I can only take it in small doses. I think Ti is very different but there is some kind of internal alignment involved in Ti as well if I remember from the descriptive definitions.
I might have to go with the scripting since the other stuff doesn’t count in the moment. Rehearse something till it feels natural or somehow make an anticipatory bubble to help release the feelings freely. But with prior internal practice. Like a robot. Not natural like Fe. I just shut down in these Se ish confrontations so it can only come out imitation style.
Well, Lunar, just remember robots aren’t “natural” because they are fed programs by other people, not because they took the time to prepare their own. My suggestion isn’t all that different than preparing for a test, an interview etc.
The key is more just about feeling comfortable. And with more practice and experience with different situations you’ll figure it out. But you can’t start with the mindset that whatever you do will always be inferior to a cognitive process you don’t prefer because that’s just self-inflicted poison, you know?
Before I learned about Myers Briggs I subconsciously scripted pretty much everything related to social situations, until it just became second nature to me to navigate them and people.
Any female INFJ musicians/artists Blake would add to this article?
Hope Sandoval of the band Mazzy Star. Very Fi Pisces id vibe coming from their album So That Tonight I Might See You, most of it due to her.
Lunar
Hi. I think it’s interesting how our types see each other and it’s funny how we can more easily see the good in other types more than our own! I would say that my friendships with infp’s, well sometimes I there Fi causes them to appear a little distant personally as well. Not so much face to face but during the in between times,if we don’t see each other for a while. I think keeping in touch is a little difficult for them? but I know that they do care deeply and its just the way they are and sometimes they really surprise me. Bu it it did take me a while to figure this out to begin with! I think I admire the fact that they can just be contented to be alone for like weeks if necessary! it’s like they don’t really need anyone else, they are so content in their own company. I guess that’s more what I meant by being pleasantly aloof, whereas I’m always trying to balance the need for solitude and the need for some kind of human interaction.
Fe obviously seeks to please others, maintain and create harmony but that can also cause us to become perhaps inauthentic in trying to keep others happy.
But I have to say that my infp friends are like kindred spirits to me, we just get each other on a very deep level. even if they don’t understand or know what to say to me sometimes, it doesn’t matter to me because I can see and I know that they have genuinely listened and that’s the important part. I can turn to them and they will always genuinely care, authentically. Just their presence is enough….
Hi Claire,
yes. I am the kind of infp that struggles to see the good in my type. So when infjs want something the infp has it just really surprises me. I always think…. are they just saying that? Like it is hard for me to imagine that anyone would want this emotional orientation to reality. I experience work life like some kind of mental rape. Come home traumatized. Then it is time to turn on nurturer role and people don’t feel nurtured (no Fe). I just want to run away, but there is no time left in the day, it’s time to hit the sack. Guess it is Ni id too. I am always waiting for some avenue where there will be a purpose, but it is always time to go to sleep the day is over.
Hi Lunar,
I think we are all seeking psychic (mental) harmony and so naturally we are drawn to types which manifest that aspect which perhaps we admire ourselves or feel we are lacking. For me there’s a fascination, a learning that goes on. A different perspective, like we can experience briefly what it’s like to see the world through their selves. So I guess I’m drawn towards INFPs because my Fi Id is so strong.
When I read both your comments the following things came to mind (and as a reminder to myself): I think we have to be careful not to use MBTI to deconstruct ourselves to the point where everything we feel is just given a label, like, oh that’s just the Fi / Ni Id or whatever, and then brushed aside when actually these feelings may be trying to tell us something, pushing us to change or acknowledge something (internal or external). Means no matter what filter they are coming through, they have significance in themselves.
For me MBTI is like knowing what type of car you’re driving and having the manual. You have the manual so that you know how to operate the thing. But you are not the car , you are the driver. I know I’m not some lunatic (well some of the time), I’m just an Aston Martin (sorry couldn’t resist) and there are lots of other Aston Martin’s on the road so it all becomes very impersonal. and then I can see all the other cars on the road and I know that each one drives differently and it all fits together like a jigsaw puzzle. It’s not ‘them’ it’s just their programming, and it’s not me either.
But yeah, their are types that absolutely baffle me sometimes by the things that come out of their mouths (ISTJs and ESTJs in particular). It’s like I stand there stunned sometimes, and I’m sure they feel the same about some of the stuff that comes out of my mouth too! It’s like we are looking at two different dimensions of reality!
@ Claire
The infjs in my life are all very important to me. Why? It is a phenomenon.
I even think Blake is infj (I used to think he was enfp then entp lol) but his words just stick with me… just go in to my brain somehow. It was the fact that his words just go in that made me change to the infj impression. I kind of changed with Roger Waters for that reason. I couldn’t see the infj in him but I could feel it. He leaves you with an impression that goes in deep.
Infjs keep mattering even though often I don’t understand infjs. It is like I understand them and I don’t understand them. There is an infj in my family that I think about every day. She does not know it I hope, because maybe it would weird her out. But every day I think about her…..
Infjs have this thing of “being known”. Like the names pop off the page. Claire, Rita, Piggie, just pop pop pop. What is it?
And then the infps also have a certain feel. You can feel Lml519, Olivia etc. Just typed words but so much feeling nonetheless.
Okay…. digressing
@Prax
You also have your own feel:) And I wish I could put it into words:)
You feel really CLEAR:) Something like that. It is like when you drink coffee in the morning and it bursts through the mental fog. Your words feel like that clean buzz:)
“I think we have to be careful not to use MBTI to deconstruct ourselves to the point where everything we feel is just given a label, like, oh that’s just the Fi / Ni Id or whatever, and then brushed aside when actually these feelings may be trying to tell us something, pushing us to change or acknowledge something (internal or external). Means no matter what filter they are coming through, they have significance in themselves.”
Brilliant insight Claire. I agree with this so much.
MBTI is a lot of fun, and it’s fascinating. But it’s important to not reduce everything that we think and feel to an exercise in categorization, because it’s not so far a leap from that to having a deterministic and disempowering view of situations. To say, I simply cannot do XYZ because of these four letters. To blame failures and shortcomings on seemingly unchangeable aspects of your nature. I find that I have to be careful not to let myself to fall into this spiral thinking, because it ultimately leads to the conclusion that I have no agency over my life.
If MBTI leads me to not pursue a risk for positive change or an opportunity to learn that I would otherwise take, then I’ll disregard it in favor of my own instincts and reasoning.
Blake,
After re-reading the Id articles you’ve written, and seeing that you acknowledge both the dominant and the auxiliary functions as balancing and regulating the Id impulses, I was wondering how the dominant function (Ni works with the Id)? I feel clear about the use of the auxiliary Fe, but how does Ni function here in its automatic way?
Also, any suggestions on how to deal with strong emotions as they arise in the moment? I’m usually not able to grab a notebook or have time and space to start Fe ing at that time. It’s like I just have to sit in this energetic pile of shit for hours before I’m able to process it in the right way.
Oh, and I’d love to hear your views on the other ‘shadow functions’ in the INFJ (Ne, Te, and Si)!I know you’ve written a little on engaging Te and about the despair of Si, but it would be interesting to hear how they would commonly sabotage us and on whether we should or are even able to integrate them in a healthy way?
And in addition to be insightful, I enjoy you for being so hilarious and ruthlessly honest and upfront in your opinions. It’s very refreshing!
@Lml519
“What is Fi good for” is subjective and my subjective two cents is that I’ve had some incredible friendships and relationships cos of my Fi dominance, and they have been very mutually nurturing and deep in way that I just don’t see typically happen in other relationships. The kind of bonds that breathes love and meaning into life and carries you.”
That’s cool:)
I know how this can be. Maybe my situation at work/home is not very good I have lost touch with this due to continued stress.
What is Fi good for? I cannot answer that for anyone else or make you believe me that that unique INFP orientation is a beautiful thing in action. I was raised by an INFP, so maybe that is why I love you guys so much. My mother had a lot to teach me and she has at her best a very ethical orientation. She is very strong and yet she is vulnerable. I always noted that we come at things from opposite places but we often end up at the same destination. Her most endearing aspects are her ability to understand another’s point of view and take an interest in them and consider why that person is the way they are. She has a natural psychologist nature. She observed me and could read things I did not even know about myself. She allowed for my natural proclivities. She adores animals and nature and is very down to earth and one of the least materialistic and most upright people I’ve ever met. She has serious integrity. She is certainly no saint, but as I told her when she was admiring an ISFJ and said “she is the long suffering type” and compared herself to that standard and said she admired that person’s ability to hang in there supportively through thick and thin in a bad relationship with rotten children as if that is a good thing. I said, “she’s a martyr and martyrs are boring.” Hey, I was young and did not know how to moderate my impressions with lovely tact until later. She in some ways is more idealistic than me. She was strained by being a mother and sole supporting adult and her life was not an easy one (it seriously wasn’t at all), but still she persevered with her ideals intact. At her worst, she could be overly nit picky and extremely critical, but her heart is one of the purest of any type I’ve ever known. That woman could survive solitary confinement and not ever budge on her principals. I was the only one of her children who could tell her hard things without her getting terribly butt hurt and defensive. We had a special relationship because I was born far behind the others and was “a functional only child” with a single mom. I’ve had no problem forgiving her of her flaws, but the others hold on to the injuries they sustained because she was a stressed out single mother who was stretched beyond her capacity. Anyway, Fi is her strength and Ne is her flexibility to navigate the outside world. Believe it or not, an INFP stressed out mother can be rather harsh, but somehow she never scared me. The others cannot say the same. She has strong feelings and sometimes strong judgments. She also was that adorable creature who could not figure out how the keys went into the door, stopped at green lights, and was at times was like Mr. Magoo (sp?) as she is the world’s worst driver who is distracted by clouds that look like elephants. 😉 The wrecks piled up behind her, but she must have angels on her shoulder because she has not had a wreck in my lifetime.
I don’t know if any of this relates to you INFPs or not, because you are all individuals and may express yourselves differently than my INFP mother. This is just the tale of an INFJ daughter of an INFP mother who did her level best with more challenges than any parent should ever have. I know, at least Lunar is a mother, and I hope this perspective offers something of what an outsider who has a very close association with an INFP who can see in one of your kind or what you bring to the table to those who are family or friends. I could list her many negative traits too because we all have them, right? The thing that most stands out to me as I face the near end of her life is that her Fi helped her to make some very ethical decisions without compromise when most people would have folded for self preservation. She was not vengeful in situations that were seriously unfair. She knew where she stood and would not slide her moral compass to equalize matters. If it was wrong, it was always wrong. Period. On that point she would not budge. She has a stubborn strength that I’ve rarely seen in any other person.
I don’t know a lot of INFPs, but the ones I know definitely deserve gratitude in a loud and pushy self serving world to remain the observant, listening, moral, and gentle souls they are. I’m not making you out to be saints or martyrs, because you can be pains in the butt in your own way, but you are in some ways sent from heaven and never forgot your word to keep your soul intact. It is humbling really and makes me just a little ashamed at my wicked and violent thoughts of retribution and swift justice. Luckily, my thoughts are far more violent than my actions. Maybe I can thank my INFP mother for that? I don’t know. I really don’t. I am a lot different than my mother, but in some essential ways we are pretty alike and I think that is not just nurture.
This is truly a lovely comment, Rita. And I don’t know whether you have ever expressed what you did above to her, but I bet that it means a lot to your mother that you see her. And by that, I mean your understanding of the circumstances which constrained her, your forgiveness for any pain that she inflicted (perhaps unwittingly), and your recognition of the goodness in her.
The thing for me though, is that, yes, I have some deep down sense of being sent from heaven. (Although, I would never project this knowledge outwards, because who likes a moralizing, holier-than-thou shrill?) But I never chose to be an angel and the more I turn my eyes on the world the closer I get to shedding my wings. Not because I’m tempted by the darkness, but only for the sake of survival. As far as values are concerned, is not survival the ultimate value? (Do you ever feel like this, Lunar?) Why should I be so moral and have such integrity, in a world that is so bereft of it? In fact, if such a worldview only diminishes my survival, and won’t inspire an accompanying reverberation in the outer world that incites change, then why and how is it *so much better*?
Forgive my glum ruminations. I blame it on the pointed presences of Saturn & Uranus in my chart. 😛
@Lml519
I do feel like survival is high up there in value yes and that is kind of hard with Fi + Ne at times although Ne can spot opportunity or at least give a fresh push. The follow through is rough. It can feel a bit joyless to get down to business in the “real world”. And there is no steady vision….with that damm Ne:)
I don’t feel sent from heaven at all though. I am not more moral than others or say I don’t necessarily do what is best for myself or others more than others?? I cause harm sometimes. I think the way I cause it lacks bad intention or active agency often, but I am not sure always. And besides then I have the bad thoughts sometimes…. I still struggle to understand in what sense infp=moral. It is hard to see your dominant process. I think of Fi as constantly reacting to every moment , impression, and assessing everything all the fucking time. I wish it would quit:)
@ Lunar
Maybe it’s the Te or something you feel that seems clear! Maybe it’s because I am.. a little bit mean! haha
I’m gonna just come out and say it since it seems to happen a lot and I keep holding back on my keyboard: INFP seem notoriously bad at “reading” people. I get some sense that they think they are good and they have a lot of empathy (try to put themselves in another’s shoes), but I think… …The conclusions are often questionable.. Hahaha. It doesn’t help that INFP (maybe enfp too lol) people can be so scattered in their conclusions. INFP kind of have a it’s “oh i really feel THIIISSSS” but then “OH BUT WAIT!!!” innocent shock at some new info.
INFP usually look at things through their self-centered lens. Not self-centered in a bad way, but in that Fi is a self-centering perspective where the rest of the world is always seen in relation to them (which may be why some perspectives always seem changing.. because INFP are often exploring and moving about mentally themselves). You guys “walk in people’s shoes”, but with your own feet. I think Fe, especially with INFJ is a lot more out-of-body. They actually take on the other person’s body as well, which probably gives them more uncanny insight into people, but it can also be seen as creepy or manipulative/invasive. (and then if mixed with Fi id, becomes like injecting poisons or drugs lol)
With dominant Fi, because it’s always in relation to yourself, it may not always be accurate, but it is authentically yourself. There’s an honesty to it that a lot of people appreciate. It’s a very personal and special kind of care when a person realizes they are getting it from an Fi-user.. like it’s been personally wrapped and gifted from the heart. I think this is what Blake means when he says INFP are probably the purest angelic lovers.. haha. You probably have a hard time expressing what all those feelings and impressions are in words even though you feel them very clearly, but I think there are a lot of people who appreciate how Fi manifests in just its basic aura. With INFP, the Ne brings it out as quirky or deep geeky enthusiasm/love over something, which has an endearing aura around it. It’s probably hard for INFP to appreciate their own endearing preciousness unless they see it in a fictional character or something (and even then, perhaps they will deny it unless exact side-by-side comparisons to themselves are pointed out).
I have told my friend to just let her love and enthusiasm in things overshadow her neurotic worries over being embarrassing or an inconvenience to people. Maybe that will help validate your way of life too!
Hi Prax
I have definitely gotten the impression that people think I cannot read people so I am sure you are right about that. Basically people are always going “what the fuck?”
I try really hard not to share much of anything now in real life. I share a lot here but in real life I have learned to just seal. Besides what I think often happens is I have an inkling that is about to be something correct. But then it doesn’t progress to anything correct. Or, in any case it is completely useless because of the “what the fuck” phenomenon. People never get anything from me anymore that is actually from the inside….
@Prax:
Something like this.
HE TALKS SO SLOW. I keep tuning in and out hahaha!
But yeah, it seems like it correlates well with what Blake talks about too. Fi being some polluting force. Though Blake doesn’t so much call it false feelings, but more suffering thrashings.
Triggered Ni 6th to me seems like paranoia/conspiratorial thinking (thinking something is truth leading to reactionary feelings and thoughts). lol This leads to weird twists on reality. There’s some semblance of truth, but it’s really warped, like getting lost in a parallel world or down a rabbit hole. I think this is where the “WTF???” reactions from others come from.
It’s probably too hard to deny Ni 6th thoughts outright since it’s a bit self-affirming when confirmation bias starts happening (just as it’s hard for conspiratorial theorists to give up their pet theories), but maybe it’s easier to just treat it as an amusing “what if” scenario. Bring it back up into the world of Ne, where it can be played with for fun instead of as “real”.
I think in that form, it’s easier to share your thoughts and be yourself. (Many people will take it as very imaginative/zany/creative!)
Similar to how INFJ can’t just deny their feelings of misery and euphoria outright, but bringing it into the world of Fe through the Morning Pages or some other expressive activity also becomes their healthy outlet.
Be the best of your bad self. lol
@Prax
“Bring it back up into the world of Ne, where it can be played with for fun instead of as “real”.
I think in that form, it’s easier to share your thoughts and be yourself. (Many people will take it as very imaginative/zany/creative!)”
None of this sounds like fun. Honestly if all I am is a blind fool I rather not partake.
Maybe it’s just that no one really wants to work with their auxiliary to work on their id. lol
It being fun or comfortable is beside the point. It’s work and personal development.
Do I want to use Te to work on my terrible Ti of just sucking in information uselessly and endlessly (and probably causing stupid pedantic fights with others)? NO! But it is the only way to free myself. I have to.. put this Ti analysis and information.. to use.. in the world.. Mind you, I personally hate “work”, so the thought that I have to do something with all my amassed “knowledge” or “potential” one day stresses me out to no end.
I assume INFJ wanna keep all their poisons and embarrassing pure selfless pisces feelings to themselves too, but here they are being told they should go express it somehow through Fe. I am sure they scream about how not-fun this is too and muse about how nice it would be to be dead or a robot instead of actually using the magic of Fe.
You are self-aware about these traits in yourself. If you don’t want to partake, that is your choice, but the world does appreciate being inspired or looked at from strange new lenses that INFP can give. And you’d probably appreciate it too because then you wouldn’t be feeling so mute (perhaps it will become more like secret whisperings and winks–which strikes me as very INFP aesthetic haha).
Anyway, Blake probably reads this and dies on the inside knowing what his forum will turn into and thus delaying it but knowing by delaying it all the comments on his precious insightful articles get flooded by this kinda talk.. so I will stop responding for a while! haha
You assume correctly, Prax, as most INFJs would rather die than expose our excruciatingly shameful and embarrassing Fi secret-selves for all the world to see. Check out my user icon (if you can see it) for a typical INFJ reaction to the very idea!
And yet, and yet, if INFJs are too afraid of displaying some authentic Fi emotional honesty, our Fe will never rise above shallow projections of “niceness” and our unusual giftedness will be competely wasted.
Regarding what Prax said about INFPs being notoriously bad at reading people and their self centering lens. That was a great line you shared, Prax, about “they walk into other people’s shoes in their own feet.” My mother always says, “If I were her, I would ______________.” She needs to process through her “I”. However, where I see them being good at reading people is the care and concern they have with the individualized “other” and honoring them by sorting through the details, mapping them over time, and remaining open and curious. It is not in their conclusions where they are great, because they are often changing. They can get sidetracked by one piece of data and change it all. It is in their processes of allowing the unfolding and hanging in there to decipher the other person’s patterns and proclivities. I think they read emotion in real time rather well. They pay attention. It is just their conclusions or deductions are often off the mark as to the root or cause of the emotion. They personalize things so by always comparing it to themselves or other things which skews the outcome. It is in dialogue that they do well with that clarifying thing they prioritize. They are often great with underdogs and patient with the vulnerable that others may dismiss. ISFJ’s are often this way too, but an ISFJ will often over function for the vulnerable and keep them there, which is why I snapped at my mother’s idealizing observation of the “long suffering” woman. I saw this woman and knew she was feeding on and perpetuating the negative cycle that was going on in her marriage and family of grown dysfunctional children who treated her like a doormat. She was a victim and she reveled in some ways in that. An INFP is no victim despite efforts by others to victimize them and their strong silent capacity to endure suffering. INFPs know who they are and know where their parts end and the other people’s parts begin in some ways. In that they are quite strong. They just over idealize others and then find themselves wanting and then later when they realize the human frailty of another they are so very disappointed. From rose colored glasses to mud covered glasses they go.
As for reading people, in real time dialogue and exchange they can do a good job of noticing nuance and detail and reporting just that and inquiring as to the meaning as they and the other person work towards an understanding together. In the real time processing they can be very good when they maintain that open curiosity. They can overthink later and get stuck in detail and distracted by one little thing that changes the whole thing or opens the can of worms all over again. Then they personalize it and begin self doubting and comparing themselves and putting themselves into the scenario and extrapolating all kinds of conflicting possibilities. It gets to be a muddled mess and then they feel confused with “what about this?” or “this?” ….. On and on it goes.
Oh yeah. Don’t I know it. I am surrounded by INFPish people (and have a very INFPish fictional character–this is actually how I gained most of my insight on the type, I think.. because I process the cognitive stack of an INFP through him and it is a wild ride lol)
What is seen as authentic and honoring for some will seem selfish and scattered to others. They just have to live with that possibility of personality/priority clash. I think most INFP mature to figure out who is worth their time or not on that level, even if it leads them through all sorts of cringe-moments.
I think INFP (maybe every type? haha.. it’s just them I mostly deal with though) are very resistant to how I give advice to them since my conclusions are often “final” (they are very self-focused on their own compass and always open to “what-if”) and probably scream a little internally every time, reluctant to be held down to one view.
OH WELL. THIS IS JUST HOW IT IS. EVEN IF I AM RIGHT. I JUST HAVE TO FIND PEACE IN MYSELF IN MY OWN RIGHTNESS RATHER THAN EXPECT ACCEPTANCE FROM OTHERS. (infj probably feel similar on some level. Maybe it’s an Ni-dom thing.)
Prax,
That is interesting that you have an INFP fictional character you use in your writing. I would be most interested in your processes and how you came up with this character. Did he evolve organically and then you recognized him as an INFP from that place of observing patterns that were emerging or did you design him from the framework that this character will be an INFP and start from there?
I know the comments are moving away from the original subject, but I was very intrigued by your comment. Creative processes are always interesting to me.
Ooh, I saw this comment while reading backwards!
I usually end up not seeing posts unless I look through old articles because I don’t subscribe to everything. I am also realizing that subscribing even to one or two articles leads to a mudslide of email updates. >_> I don’t know which fate is worse.
Onto the question even if off-topic..
I start most of my characters off as an idea and build upon them, then they start acting out patterns of their own. I start thinking of them as real people with wills of their own that I don’t quite “understand” just like I wouldn’t real people.. but then I work backwards to get inside their heads and aha! I suddenly work out their thoughts and mindsets.. how they cognitively process things. I think this is an Ni thing where you mirror-image the world (or character/person) into your subjective mind and start pulling strings and looking at the different angles of that hologram copy and things suddenly make sense.
For the INFP character I’m thinking of in particular, I took one of those online personality tests as if I were him and got INFP. Read up a bit, forgot about it, then continued on with his story for a couple of years where he makes what I assume are bad-logic wacky choices (of course HE thinks they had rhyme and reason). Then I later checked back on MBTI stuff and was really pleased how well the INFP archetype reflects the way he processes!
He was actually a character I “deleted” because I found the backstory too stupid (he was the “good/love-capable side” of another character). I revived and revamped him into another project because I needed a minor nobody kind of character but didn’t want to create “new” ones, but I ended up developing him a lot. The idea I developed him around was “a being who feels justifiably guilty for existing” and playing with whether he is redeemable or not, whether he is “allowed” to still find happiness. You’d think that would be a more INFJ kind of character, but no. It’s just INFP with major depression among other issues. lol
Thank you, Prax:
That answer seemed in keeping with a guess, but I wanted confirmation because I did not know for sure. I appreciate hearing about your process.
I haven’t written much fiction, except for some scenarios written for students to act out as they are processing therapeutic dynamics. For them, I give bare bones essentials for them to fill in. However, I write far more back story and scripted dialogue that emerges overtime just for me. I include motives and undercurrents. I suppose the process is similar but on a small and limited scale.
I figure all writing and life has an element of fiction to it though. 🙂 It depends upon the angle and lens from which you view. If I wrote fiction, it might be a play. I don’t know enough about theatre though, but “all the world is a stage and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances……”
Anyway, your answer is most appreciated. I have more questions that I would ask you if I could, but will leave it off here.
@Rita
Wow. What generosity in your post. I won’t write much because I have been falling into a raw state (the joy of having a voice inside you should not listen to) and have chosen to take a decent posting break but I have your comment now to ponder. Thanks for the glimpse into your mother.
Yes infps can be harsh as mothers and as family members. Te grip is hideous. We seem stranger than isfps as well I “think” I have noticed.
The “blind” aspect is kind of a painful thing…….I sorta always knew it….people have tended to think I am loony tunes but you know how can you tell you are mad if you are mad? Intjs that’s how. Sometimes I don’t want to try anymore to put the whole damm thing together anymore.
God knows what I am doing to the kids. God only knows.
@Prax
“OH WELL. THIS IS JUST HOW IT IS. EVEN IF I AM RIGHT. I JUST HAVE TO FIND PEACE IN MYSELF IN MY OWN RIGHTNESS RATHER THAN EXPECT ACCEPTANCE FROM OTHERS.”
I like you, you offer light clearly. Caffeine buzz.
But can’t write more… just had to make sure to say that before long break.
Prax,
That last line contained something of how both types self talk to soothe frustration that our impressions were not believed. We kind of engage in shouting at ourselves a little. It isn’t really shouting, but just a strong expression with clear emphasis. LOL! Well done.
Kevin Gates to me is the epitome of a Fi of in Scorpio – this type of hard hip hop is the only kind of music I can listen to and be productive – that or meaningless clever and good beat hip hop that’s just high energy and materialistic but for me it’s motivating in an unemotional way – a lot of people say it gives them a headache but I lose my productivity and sink into an unfunctional Fi Pisces state when I listen to mellow music. Never was able to categorize it specifically like this before– I would just say “productive” and “motivating” or “unfunctional.”
I can relate to that, Marisa. I prefer upbeat, high energy dance music for maximum productivity, preferably with a deep bassline and an infectiously edgy tune. We have a radio in the laboratory at work and I like to keep it tuned to one of the dance stations, but if there are others working there I can’t crank up the volume too much.
If it was solely up to, I’d install a decent sound system and play banging hardhouse or techno all day, with some 70’s disco classics thrown in when I need to slow down a little.
If one of the older scientists tunes into an easy listening station, my productivity tanks and I soon start yawning and feeling sleepy. Sad songs are even worse – they just make me depressed and morose!
I’ve always been strongly affected by music of all types: I couldn’t bear to live in a society where it’s forbidden; like some of those extreme fundamentalist regimes.
@Prax
I’m gonna just come out and say it since it seems to happen a lot and I keep holding back on my keyboard: INFP seem notoriously bad at “reading” people.
…..
I have thought about this since you wrote it….. I can’t keep posting here but wanted to address this point because I reached more clarity about it….you struck a nerve I think:) I have not stopped thinking about it.
On the one hand I can see what you wrote is true. Hence it really shook me up. Ouchy in a way you Ni doms might not relate to.
On the other hand I can see you are missing something. And this is it…. infps don’t claim to read thought process and peoples’s psychological tricks and all that sophisticated stuff do they? If we do we probably shouldn’t. I have really strong Ni moments that kind of overwhelm my abilities. It leaves such an impression on me and I know something is telling me something but I don’t know WHAT. I can get the exact same kind of Ni sense repeatedly with the same individual and then I really will start to really try and understand. And I don’t fully trust….. I don’t fully trust any Ni type knowledge or anyone except as a recipient of this screaming Ni from injs that always seems very illuminating. Are you guys real??
So…the more I interact with someone, the more time I spend gathering the pieces, feeling out the elephant, the longer I do so. There is not an end as I never see the elephant. Rita is right that what our Ni does is somehow with lots of time passing and without ?content? No Ti no Te. Hard to describe.
I think we are using different languages. I think infps claim to know how people “feel” on the outside. Maybe that is arrogant, I don’t know…. Then they spend their entire life trying to figure out how that person must feel like to themselves on the inside and that part is very hard. Imagine that we try to do this without even having masterful Ni or choosing Fe. Just Ni operating in the background. We do Not try to see other people’s mental constructs. That goes over our head and isn’t quite what we have set out to do… We just try to imagine how they might feel to themselves. We assume everyone must feel a certain way to themselves and can’t stop trying. This thing we do is so “wordless” so silent and heavy. So if you understood how much we try it is very dismissive, but maybe you don’t understand how much we try? Some of us have fear to reveal how blind and lost we are, how much we are just looking at just how the hide on the foot of the elephant feels. By the way this simple description is all I can handle. I don’t do complicated. I have a simple mind.
Our Ni is like a locked box. We cannot articulate what ends up in there. And that equals pain very much like your screaming capital letters but much more painful. Why painful? Because it is locked. Makes one mute and frankly “light” and by the wayside. I have been contemplating the purpose of the infp and I think it may have to do with with projecting an “aura” of I don’t see anything, your truth is just as valid as mine, but if you cross a line, then I do see you. It is like an alarm system. So it is like a projection of open-mindedness with an alarm system, so you can’t be a total scoundrel and get good reception. I get that as a useful “archetype” or projection. However in day to day stuff that sounds overly moral, blind, pointless and it is not how I experience myself to myself. To myself I just experience a certain malaise all the time. Hard to explain…. I cannot read minds for one but I do sense how people “feel” on the outside. The gap between feeling them but knowing what they are thinking takes a lot of work. Lots of Ne work. And frankly Ne doesn’t really work for that. I can be very anxious because of this. I have to let go and switch modes and do a different type of Ne. So I do. Self preservation.
I write a lot of garbage, one of my sins really. But part of me knows that to articulate something in that box is like a week’s worth of effort, and then I will need to discard it most of the time. A true knowledge that is perfectly valid will emerge from time to time and I wish that I would trust it. Instead I have a very strange relationship to whatever emerges because it was so hard to flesh out and if I share it it could get dismantled with tremendous speed like in one minute. So much work and immediate trampling.
In the presence of mental trickery say (harmful or harmless), we somehow become aware of it. People who like to play with self presentation or who are extremely cunning, our Ni box is getting so much junk in it probably originating with Fi hurts. Each Fi hurt generates some kind of undeveloped Ni ping. I believe they have no large context. There has to be a huge amount of time passing to get the context and a willingness to do so. And it does hurt to see things not fitting together.
Probably the greatest pain for an infp is to feel like their is trapped insight that is inarticulable. I have learned to leave it there. I know that Ni protects me somehow. And pushes me to integrate. Ne does not make me feel less mute but allows to add pieces to the mystery rather than guess the picture. The picture will come in another life.
Holden Caulfield would you say is epitomizing the Fi scorpio id infj drama in fine fashion?
I reread Catcher in the Rye this spring. I Found myself chuckling (at least through the first half of it) in understanding of his personified internal dialogue regarding phonies (bullshitters) etc. My wife wondered how I could be laughing at such a story . Salinger’s character’s voice resonated with my inner thinking (mostly unspoken because I found such expression can be a downer for most people). So I had moments of laughter reading the thoughts and words of Holden responding to his world. I tested as infj in high school (boarding school) 25+ years ago. didn’t think of MBTi again till 3 years ago or so. Anyway infj creative thinking is my favorite flavor chewing gum. Thanks Blake for writing your brave insights down for all to consider! It has made a difference for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Crazy
Holy shit! This Hamlet analysis is INCREDIBLE! I’ll take all of that you have to sell. If you have thoughts about other fictional characters of other types-???? So good.
Hey, a question about “INFJ nice”. To what extent do you think that is driven by some kind of fear (not sure what function if any might be powering it) that the INFJ will destroy the world, Kali-like, if they drop the nice routine and unload? Do you think it’s fair to say that INFJ people often feel guilty if they stop being nice and have some kind of emotional explosion? I’m curious if “guilt” lives in a particular function, in your model, or if that is the wrong way to think about it.
Hey, a question about “INFJ nice”. To what extent do you think that is driven by some kind of fear (not sure what function if any might be powering it) that the INFJ will destroy the world, Kali-like, if they drop the nice routine and unload?
Yeah, remember Hitler?
Do you think it’s fair to say that INFJ people often feel guilty if they stop being nice and have some kind of emotional explosion?
Yes, I think that is fair to say, which leads me to your next question…
I’m curious if “guilt” lives in a particular function, in your model, or if that is the wrong way to think about it.
It lives in the deep Fi id of INFJ the most. Fi in general (not in any particular functional position) is the accumulator for all possible feeling states, but particularly feeling states that could most probaly be termed “feminine-negative” in nature – sadness, fear, guilt, hatred, compassion, cooperation, unity, merger, and love. Feelings that arise out of sense of “attachment” to another or others.
Anyhoo, yes, I would say the feeling of guilt is a very common dynamic of the INFJ deep Fi id, which basically means that an INFJ has this Fi Pisces thing very deep in their nature and since the id itself is “negative” in orientation, the function that is there will usually operate in a very primal, unconscious, and atavistic way (especially deep id).
So, an INFJ will often feel a deep and abiding sense of guilt that is not really amenable to rationality. There is something inexplicable and deep in the id that acts as a primary motive for action, but, that is shrouded in the depths of the inchoate. The id is very strong and hard to control. The ego acts as a reigning-in function to the id.
An INFJ will often feel driven by all kinds of seething emotional impulses deep down. As I have said before, the best way for an INFJ to deal with them is simply to express them. To let it out. Being “nice” is the very thing that an INFJ feels deeply compelled to do, but, which in the final analysis they may be least capable of. This is the crowning realization of Dostoevsky’s Underground Man – that he can’t be nice. That is the way he finally sums up his dilemma. It’s kind of deep paradox of the INFJ type who is in many respects most equipped of all types to be heaven’s little angel.
An INFJ can be too nice, too yielding, too sensitive to others to the point of self-immolation.
It is their point of greatest weakness and negative temptation. I think the story of Jesus Christ is the very story of an INFJ operating from this place of Fi Pisces id. To take on all the sins of humankind. To so feel for humankind that one is willing to die to expunge all the sins of humankind. And to forgive your enemies and the ones who strike you down. To turn the other cheek when one is slapped in the face. To succor the weak, the miserable, and the suffering. To die on the cross.
That is all highly INFJ thematics from this very place of the deep guilt of Christianity. It might be argued that Christians invented guilt (sin) and also the concept of forgiveness.
Suffice to say, an INFJ is very tuned into these very Christian concepts via their deep id inheritance. It is also the very things that threaten to destroy an INFJ in the direction of the greatest ego disintegration possible…via this Christian guilt, love, compassion, tenderness, mercy, etc.
An INFJ in this deep id state feels guilty (complicit) in all this horror and suffering they see and feel in the world in their lowest moments. All the sadness, suffering, inhumanity of humanity. And they look at themselves and say “I am guilty too”. Why? At the very least, for some supposed sins of ommission rather than commission. They will judge themselves very harshly in this state. And blame themselves more than anyone else.
They may think “Hey, aren’t I supposed to be Jesus Christ?”
I don’t know if that answers your question, but, there it is.
Blake, you have such a clear insight into INFJ mechanics… It’s disarming and alarming but undeniably accurate. Your articles and the discussions on StellarMaze have ruined all other MBTI communities for me!
As far as INFJ in the id, I think this is where a little Ti can really do wonders. There is something so calming in the capacious emptiness of rational thought, if nothing else just as a panic room from the Fi storm brewing up all around you.
@Blake – thanks. This is a really good comment. Many of your comments are really good. But this one goes into especially funky places.
Oh my, I relate so much to what you wrote about that INFJ guilt! I’ve learned to not take it so seriously these days- to at least have enough distance to say, Oh you again. It feels so terrible, but I know from experiencing it one million and one times that there is more going on inside than just that terrible guilt feeling. Leaving the Christian tradition I grew up with was very important in all of this. But I remember being about thirteen and feeling like an absolute moral failure because I never experienced a burning-bush- Joan-of-Arc-voice-of-God type vision. I was thoroughly convinced that I was going to hell. So dramatic!
Hi Jane,
Guilt is definitely a big “thing” for many INFJs! I’ve rewritten some comments I made on an earlier discussion (https://www.stellarmaze.com/fi-in-infjs/), as they seem relevant here as well:
I’ve also struggled with negative feelings of guilt in the past.
It used to take a number of forms, including feeling guilty because I don’t do enough for those less well off than myself.
Another type of guilt (and the associated shame) which plagued me from a very young age was a sense of not deserving anything good because I was a horrible person. I believe this started because I once heard a priest explain that God could read our thoughts and knew every sin that we had ever committed, and would punish us severely for each little crime. What a terrible thing to say to impressionable young children!
It took me years to shake off that nagging feeling of having my thoughts constantly being monitored by a punitive deity. Eventually, I was able to dispel the pointless worrying and sense of shame, thanks to my developing intuition (and perhaps some tertiary Ti logic). It reassured me of the following:
a) If there was such a being as God, then he or she made me who I was for a reason, and that should be a matter of pride, not shame!
b) If God didn’t exist, then all that guilt and shame was utterly pointless!
From that point on, I started to “own” who I was instead of being ashamed for simply existing. It still took quite a few years before I fully accepted myself, but the process of coming out as gay to my friends and family was a major turning point in my early twenties.
Another milestone was learning about Jungian type. I can still remember the amazing feeling of validation that hit me when I first read about INFJ’s. Suddenly all the pieces of my life story began to fall into place and make sense.”
There’s you just waltzing into people’s existences and being a tell-all. 😉
I’ve always been addicted to that Hallelujah song.
I read your Ti id in the INTJ article to the INTJ sitting next to me. You got his attention so there must have been something there. 🙂
I could tell he felt “got” – which is rare, and I know it was appreciated. He explained the “into the infinite” thing to me.
Oh, he mentioned not voices, but, “…it’s math that is like music.” I know that the math-is-god concept has appealed to him at times. I can see that. Why not? Pythagoras?
And I’ve seen your flag on the marble arch
And love is not a victory march
It’s a cold and it’s a broken Hallelujah
Hey Blake,
Kevin here. I’ve always been a huge, huge fan of Jeff Buckley, and I thought you might be interested in one of my favorites of his that’s not as cliché and perhaps even more emotive than Hallelujah. It may serve as a better representation of Jeff Buckley as an artist, since it is one of his original compositions, after all, in terms of musical and lyrical content. It was also released posthumously. Not sure if this would still be Fi Pisces id, though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO0svGjVEP8
And c’mon. If you want to illuminate an example of Fi Scorpio id, you gotta go big or go home. The following will enlighten you to the genius that is Mikael Åkerfeldt and his band Opeth. I was wondering what your thoughts on Mikael might be. He seems to be an INFJ with pure Ni and Fi. At least, that’s how he comes across in interviews. And this, honestly, is perfectly reflective of his music. Disclaimer: there are death growls in the following work; it definitely is an acquired taste. But, I know you’ve listened to Tool and the various works of Mr. INTJ Maynard James Keenan, most likely including Ticks and Leeches, so this will hardly be a surprise for you, Blake. Other commenters, however, might be taken aback on first listen. But, when does any complex work ever sound great upon first listen? This ain’t no fucking ESFP shit.
But definitely not something to be played at work. Who am I fucking kidding, all of you fucking INFJs out there have Fi Scorpio id. You guys can fucking handle this shit. But, before you write it off (if you are so inclined), give it a chance to sink in. Discover what the lyrics actually say. Let the death growls become an aesthetic coloration of the work, rather than a distraction from the art (this happens automatically over time throughout repeated listens). Feel the utter intensity and pure darkness of the Fi. Let the anger and aggression sink in. Fuck the world and anyone who doesn’t understand this work; they haven’t suffered as we have:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VQzMyAdHoY
Oh, and if you were doubting Mikael’s artistic prowess and pathos, or if you were questioning the presence of Mikael’s Fi Pisces id, here’s another work of his – a great contrast to “The Leper Affinity.” Heaven and Hell in one package? It certainly does seem like it.
Astrodienst recently posted this great article “In Defense of Scorpio’s Dark Side”, which seems highly relevant to this discussion. The article can be found here:
http://www.astro.com/astrology/tma_article160906_e.htm
Thanks for sharing, Stewart!
Well written and insightful.
Yes, much appreciated, Stewart!
Some years ago I read a book where taking care of those gone bad and hurting humanity was simply and swiftly ended with the sentiment, ‘Better luck next life’. And I related so much with this that I use the term when it appears someone needs to be taken out. And taken out quietly, like in the article you shared, with spies and assassins. Just done without fanfare, without taking out thousands of innocents as well. The book if anyone else is interested is ‘The Initiate Brother’. Or maybe no ‘the’. And what I said may not be exact, but is the gist. In fact I think I may go reread it…
I think scorpio may also have ‘keep your own council’ so deeply imbedded in terms of this understanding of darkness that I have very much trouble expressing my thoughts on the matter. It is like something in me is adamantly saying, DON’T say that out loud! I’m working to overcome this, somewhat. Might have something to do with being burnt at a stake some lifetime ago. Funny how that could be seen as tying in with better luck next life… even though blinding fear rather than an understanding of what is actually harmful has caused loads of unfortunate casualties. Scorpio knows what is actually dangerous and knows as well the consequences in taking it upon themselves to deal with it. Crazy odd how scorpio’s discernment is feared and frothing vengeance is applauded. Sometimes scorpio makes a mistake and says part of the whole, and of course the whole is nigh impossible to say, so it will always be part, and part is risky.
Stewart I love the article. Here’s my question, can an amoral statement be objective? Amoral is neutral? So if an amoral statement is made to a person who in not in neutral then it’s up for interpretation? Therefore, as Tiny Yellow Tree stated above
I think scorpio may also have ‘keep your own council’ so deeply imbedded in terms of this understanding of darkness that I have very much trouble expressing my thoughts on the matter. It is like something in me is adamantly saying, DON’T say that out loud! I’m working to overcome this, somewhat. Might have something to do with being burnt at a stake some lifetime ago. Funny how that could be seen as tying in with better luck next life… even though blinding fear rather than an understanding of what is actually harmful has caused loads of unfortunate casualties. Scorpio knows what is actually dangerous and knows as well the consequences in taking it upon themselves to deal with it. Crazy odd how scorpio’s discernment is feared and frothing vengeance is applauded. Sometimes scorpio makes a mistake and says part of the whole, and of course the whole is nigh impossible to say, so it will always be part, and part is risky.
Amoral statements seem to be incredibly risky but they are something that internally seem so incredibly objective. Can an infj make a scorpio moon id amoral statement and it be interpreted as so? Is it possible to make an objective id statement? An amoral statement seems like the most objective statement that could be made, right? It has no judgement attached, right? But, because for an infj, a scorpio moon amoral statement comes from Fi/id can it truly be objective? Or is it just a different kind of objective fact based statement that’s not based in Ti? Or is the combination of the two a more holistic perspective? Ti fact and scorpio moon psychic knowing combine for both sides of the coin? Throw in a little Ni and this is at the root of an infj’s fear of trying to communicate their thoughts and feelings? As Tiny Yellow Tree wrote so brilliantly above “the whole is nigh impossible to say, so it will always be part, and part is risky.” I would love to hear everyones thoughts and suggestions on this.
Yeah, it is so very hard, almost impossible, to share what I’m really feeling or thinking that maybe I never have, at least with another person. Allusions, stories or metaphors are about as honest as I can manage when I actually need to share something about myself. Evasions, platitudes or outright lies when I don’t, or can’t, but still need to convince others that I’m OK when I’m really not.
Maybe a function in the Id position is actually the purest possible manifestation of that function in the psyche, the alpha function if you like, present before all the others and therefore preceding consciousness itself?
Maybe it is even our Soul? The lunar symbolism strongly supports this conclusion, now that I’ve finally made the intuitive leap.
No wonder then that the lunar Id is so personal and powerful and primitive and profound and lots more p-words I can’t think of right now…….
Of all the Starling articles I’ve been enjoying the past few days, this one stayed with me the most. Thank you for your amazing content. If I remember correctly, in another post you mentioned that having a Scorpio moon equals having an Fi-auxiliary function. If this is the case for an INFJ, would it make them more at ease / familiar in the ‘Fi domain’? Possibly soothe the tumults of their Fi id?
I have a Scorpio sun sign, but am not familiar with the difference between sun and moon signs. Would a Scorpio sun also equal implied fi-aux?
If I remember correctly, in another post you mentioned that having a Scorpio moon equals having an Fi-auxiliary function.
No, I didn’t say that. Scorpio = Fi. Moon = id. So, a Scorpio Moon would be analogous to an Fi id rather than Fi auxiliary.
I have a Scorpio sun sign, but am not familiar with the difference between sun and moon signs. Would a Scorpio sun also equal implied fi-aux?
The difference between the Sun and Moon is sort of like the difference between the auxiliary and the id respectively. The Moon brings out the the more Dionysian side of the sign that it is in and the Sun brings out the more Apollonian side. Roughly speaking.
However, if you were an INFJ and had a Scorpio Sun in your chart, I think it would just tend to highlight the Scorpio id that I speak of in this article. So, no, it wouldn’t really be like an auxiliary Fi placement.
Basically, any major Scorpio placements in as astrological birth chart brings out much of the INFJ nature whether one is an INFJ or not. I think if I had to assign one sign to INFJ in total it would be the sign of Scorpio.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Lp5lroVTc
I find this interview so fascinating on so many levels….
there is some kind of 2 different planes for the interviewer and interviewee.
Legendary singer-songwriter Leonard Cohen dies aged 82
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/nov/11/leonard-cohen-dies-aged-82
Ah noooooooooo!
https://youtu.be/wI48PS3m59A
This song and many more… Famous Blue Raincoat… and the list goes on… have been profound pieces of me. But this song most of all. May love lead your way, Leonard.
He wrote a song one month ago. “I am ready lord” something like that is in the song.