OK, fellow Stellar Mazians, the time has come to reveal THE TRUTH that I have burning inside me – THE TRUTH about Russell Brand’s Myers Briggs type.
Basically, it’s quite easy. There is only one right way, one right answer and that is THE ANSWER I’m about to reveal to you silly unenlightened ones.
Because let me step it down a notch so that you can understand the shit I’m about to be laying on you.
You know how I started out the last article by making an allusion to the nature of Mr. Brand’s over-amped tertiary function and how this was a clue to typing someone that is in the throes of this crazy shit of the particular nature of the function that is in Mr. Brands ACTUAL tertiary position…(um, yeah)
And you know how that crazy cocksuckling thing is in a loop with the preeminent dominant function whose nature is all subjective and shit.
Wake up earth dwellers because I’ve been through some shit and I’m here to tell you that you need to be aware of the dynamics that is functioning on the other side of this reality.
Well, so anyway, let me come back down to earth a little bit (Like Mr. Brand should have done at some point in the proceedings).
So, yeah, I don’t know that this is overtly obvious to y’all, but Mr. Brand is a somewhat classical case of an ISFP in the throes of tertiary temptation, which, in his case, is ramped up to the heights of heaven.
He is also a bit of an atypical case as well (which is why I included him in this little challenge) because it is rather unusual (in my experience) to see an ISFP this amped up over this crazy shit of the Ni tertiary loop. Yes, it is a bit unusual. But, instructive for the sense of continuums.
Because while Brand is somewhat atypical in the extremes that this tertiary looped Ni dynamic has gone too, he is still quite discernable as an ISFP type within the crazy (ENFPish? ENTPish?) maelstrom he has created around himself.
If you watch about a minute of the video I include in the last article it is pretty clear (to me at least) that this is THE DYNAMIC that is going on with him.
Yes, you can go off and get yourself all confused and running through all the functions in different orders until doomsday.
But, it is really rather simple. I like to keep things simple.
Realize first that Brand is a rather unusual character. You don’t see many of his ilk in the everyday compartments of life.
Notice that he is rather overbearing and insistent in his manner of speech.
What is he hammering on about?
Why are the people around him (his interviewers) sitting there rather unengaged and well, rather lost, or at a loss.
While he, unperturbed and undismayed, carries on with this VERY IMPORTANT POINT that you all need to get in order to be freed. Saved. Cast out of your shackles. Etc.
My friends, it is really quite simple. THE ONLY Myers-Briggs/Jungian function (there are only 8) that does this sort of thing, that speaks this sort of language, is the introverted intuitive function. It is THE ONLY ONE.
Why, it is THE ONE. In all senses. O, don’t get me started on THE SENSES because that is the one thing I was trying to avoid. No, THE SENSES is a motherfucking illusion. You need to get past that shit and into the ONE TRUE REALITY.
Well, I don’t know if it is as clear as day to you, but, to me (one who has been to the mountain) it is quite obvious.
O, you poor ignorant earth dwellers. Someday you will see (if you listen to me and get into my brand) what it’s all about.
Because it’s so hard to say what it’s all about.
Goddamn it, can’t you just see it! I’ll make you see it!
Maybe if I talk loudly and passionately enough you will pay attention!
I’m on fire with this reality of all realities, the unity, the place that all roads lead to!
O, and what about the tertiary position? Have you heard of that crazy shit?
O yeah, that’s the position that makes a mouse in a lab experiment push a lever that delivers a sugar fix until that mouse in the lab experiment keeps pressing that lever that is delivering that sugar fix until it dies.
Yeah, that’s the tertiary for you. Death by the heights. Death by being dragged into thinner and more rarified atmospheres until you swoon and pass into a fainting fit.
Or while you are still cognizant has you spouting off to other people the untrammeled truth of a land that only you understand, that only you have been to.
I’ve been to the promise land and mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the lord. I have seen THE TRUTH.
Problem with this little here ole tertiary function is that it can become filled with hubris and arrogance and exclusivism.
I am the chosen one. I am the messiah that has been the ONLY ONE to glimpse the truths of THE DIVINE.
If you don’t listen to me that is your own fault. Woe to the ignorant, yo.
Anyway, dear earth dwellers, that’s it in a nutshell. Let those who have ears hear.
This, my dear young ones, is the manifestation of introverted intuition in the tertiary position (looped) with Fi on the other end of the loop.
Can’t you see it? Shall I speak louder? Can’t thoust hear me? O, pity.
It’s a pity because I had no plans on quitting talking anytime soon.
THE TRUTH is eternal and will not abide by any man’s earth-driven time tables.
So, I will go on proclaiming my truth no matter who heareth it. I will go on preaching my doctrine no matter who liketh it.
Too bad if you are not ready. Your time will come. Then, you will see THE TRUTH of these things.
Meanwhile, prepared to be severely annoyed and tested. But, I cannot taketh responsibility for such things as thus.
It is the way of the Lord.
Abide!
Or be on the side of the wrong.
Anyway, I must leave you now with these unpalatable truths. But, you will see in the final analysis that is hath been for the best.
This world is an illusion created by THE 5 SENSES.
So, deal accordingly, yo.
Peace. Me out.
“Why are the people around him (his interviewers) sitting there rather unengaged and well, rather lost, or at a loss.”
exactly!!!
“one who has been to the mountain”
stop it!!!! :):):)
Laughing so hard now!!
What a brilliant, hilarious way to illustrate what you mean!
It’s funny how an ISFP becomes so contemptuous of physical reality in the grip. The thing they are supposed to be swimming in and making art out of.
In fact, an Ni-Ti looped INFJ seems to become contemptuous of Fe in the same way. In my moments… khm.,.years of looping I would be looking down on all those people talking and having fun with each other if is was without any DEEPER MEANING, for socializing itself. While Ni-Ti-ing to figure out nature of things was what a really deep person did! (cannot say I graduated from this completely, though).
So, do you think that being contemptuous and/or dismissing of your secondary is characteristic of all types in the grip?
And a sideline question, would an ENTP in the grip be on this constant rollercoaster of events and parties and new hobbies and stuff, desperately avoiding any permanence and, God forbid, any peak into their own world?
I wonder about this stuff. I’m pretty damn sure I’m an INFJ, and I don’t know about this Ni-Ti loop. For me, I’ve been frustrated with the shallowness of the world, yes, but I’ve spent more of my time being really effing jealous of all those people having fun, wishing I had a goddamned clue as to how to join in, and being pissed that I can’t seem to do so. ESPECIALLY regarding romance and sex. I don’t like sitting still and waxing philosophical, I’m kinetic as hell. I feel like a caged beast, banging my head against the walls of this “magic Ni kingdom” that feels like a prison to me. Anyone else think this? BTW, I don’t look like a philosopher, either. I look like it should be easy for me to join in on “the fun.” I was a successful college athlete, and I’m in better shape now than I was then.
Now that you mention it I should admit I have had these thoughts too.
Yes, actually contempt most likely grows out of powerlessness when one has tried hard and still haven’t achieved what you wanted. These two are sides of the same coin. Contempt might be a compensation for perceived failure to share in the fun. You probably haven’t gone that far yet, but I quite certainly subconsciously chose to take pride in my Ni-Ti, because, well, it feels better than the realization that you cannot really fit in.
You might have a strong war going on between Ni and Se, hence the “caged beast” 🙂 Some people have it manifest through addictions, like overeating to take away the pressure of overthinking, some with obsession with fame and success, and in your case it is probably directed at the socializing aspect.
It also might have to do with the fact that a certain level of maturity is required to reconcile the contradictions within the psyche (which every type is made of). At some point it seems either-or: going deep with Ni and Ti or socializing and being “shallow” through Fe, whereas a well-developed INFJ will have it all smoothly combined. Like the ability to share insights in an accessible, even funny way and getting people to resonate with you.
So I suspect this guy was going through life getting involved in quite a bit of Se mess, with lots of stuff going wrong, and then BAM – he discovers the sweet Ni as a wholly different layer of reality! But since he still thinks in either-or dichotomies, he favors it over Se and gets himself deep in the metaphysical without grounding in reality (probably as a means to escape from his real-life mess, just my guess.)
The next step would be to realize that Ni should be used not to ditch Se and its problems, but to use it in the sensory world to achieve fulfillment as opposed to escape. But that takes time.
It is a mind thing. The senses is just mind. Or to put it in another way it is just another thing to go to, and going to anything will cut you off from the eternal source, that is right there in the central nothingness. Oh God I’m doing a Russell? Ni or whatever it is, let’s not think too much of it, the point distilled is that it’s no good to be caught up in beauty, or what you consider beauty, or you will miss out on all the rest.
Haha!
I just can’t accept that Russell Brand is an ISFP ……:( but this was fun, and funny
I just can’t accept that Russell Brand is an ISFP ……:( but this was fun, and funny
Well, that’s what counts 🙂
indeed :))
I don’t know whether it’s that I was formerly around too many people like this in my life or what but he didn’t actually annoy me as much as he seems to have others on this site…
I think someone mentioned this guy had/has? drug addiction issues. Does use of certain drugs lead to predictable shifts in the MB functions? Like can you predictably say if such-and-such type smokes pot, they will have x response, if another type drops acid, they will have y response, etc.?
Damn…
My quick guess was ENTJ or ENFJ:
– getting energy from interactions,
– intuitive flights of fancy,
– thinking rather than feeling???
– coming to quick conclusions rather than keeping an open mind.
Have you seen him flirting? He’s won awards for things like stud of the year. Doesn’t seem like an introvert thing to me. He doesn’t get the exhaustion that introverts get. BTW, maybe he is enneagram type 7 – loves the sound of his own voice. But he is also 2-like in that he is overbearing and intrusive.
Blake, are you enneagram type 6? Your perspective seems to be opposite to the mainstream MBTI position, which is a classic 6 contrariness.
Most MBTI people would say Jimi Hendrix is an I, but you said he’s E.
Most MBTI people would say Russell Brand is an EN, but you say he is IS.
BTW, I reckon I’m an INTP, and it perfectly fits standard MBTI analysis, but maybe you would say ESFJ – unimaginable!
Have you seen him flirting? He’s won awards for things like stud of the year.
Are you telling me an ISFP can’t flirt or be a stud? C’mon now. I didn’t know that, but, if anything that just confirms that he is an ISFP type rather than deny.
Yes, I will agree with you that ENFJs might take the cake for studpuppies of Myers-Briggs pantheon. The men of this type are often lady killers.
Blake, are you enneagram type 6? Your perspective seems to be opposite to the mainstream MBTI position, which is a classic 6 contrariness.
I don’t discuss my type in any regard, but, I will say that I think enneatype 6 is big copout in terms of possessing any clearly defined traits besides the phobic/counterphobic dynamic. Actually, if anything an ISFP would fit that dynamic very well as I think much of the time an ISFP goes with the flow of the system and such, but, wait until they feel pushed to far in one regard or another via the inferior Te (the system of society). They will go from being slightly phobic and under-the-radar to being a totally committed revolutionary that wants to bring down the system. However, most of the time, and as a general rule, I think ISFPs fit the bill on being a phobic and somewhat dependent type, dependent on the external organization of the system, and they just sort of plug themselves in somewhere and go along with their job, their business etc.
Read this article on introverted feeling that I wrote to see what I mean. It discusses introverted feeling in relation to extraverted thinking (it’s opposite) to arrive at some definition of the often reactive psychology (sometimes violently reactive) of introverted feeling.
Most MBTI people would say Jimi Hendrix is an I, but you said he’s E.
Um, yes, I recanted on that one due to a couple of convincing comments. See here. I add an inline commentary within the body of that article as to why I changed my mind.
And I am willing to change my mind if I can be convinced! It’s really the whole process of attempting to arrive at the answer of type that is interesting, not the final result so much.
Most MBTI people would say Russell Brand is an EN, but you say he is IS.
Perhaps, but, for starters I do not know what most MBTI people have said about Brand because I don’t look to what other people have said about a person’s type in order to arrive at my opinion. Which is not to say I am adverse to other’s opinions, it’s just that I don’t as a habit look to see what other people have said before I come to a conclusion in this regard. After all, they may be wrong. And I don’t want to be preemptively influenced before I can look at a person with fresh and uninfluenced eyes. There is such a thing as confirmation bias in that you start to see what you expect to find. I seek to eradicate that as much as possible from my typings.
Inarticlate introvert – NOT!:
“Um, yes, I recanted on that one due to a couple of convincing comments. See here. I add an inline commentary within the body of that article as to why I changed my mind.”
Sorry, I didn’t see that. So you now reckon Hendrix is ISFP? Interesting possibility. I reckon Bob Dylan was ISxx, but Hendrix was INxx. Dylan tended to write concrete stuff like Hurricane and Mr Tambourine Man, whereas Hendrix tended to write abstract stuff like Purple Haze and Little Wing. Of course, that is not very direct evidence. Just makes me wonder.
Flirt? He slimes everyone in contact with him, he calls himself a “sexy narcissist.” I like him, because I see something decent beneath that schmarmy nature. But to say he flirts is putting a shiny varnish on it. He is downright tacky! Maybe I’m a prude and don’t know what stands for flirting, but it is kind of cheesy and obscene in my estimation. Maybe that’s a joke, but somehow with his sexual addiction which I highly suspect is real, it does not come off!
Let’s all go work our auxiliaries ( and do our minimums!)!!
Makes sense!
Wired ISFP definitely overall fits his “image”, I think.
No, I think his image is ultra-extrovert. Actor, disc jockey, womaniser, politician.
Well, my first impression was ENFP or ESFP, so I’ll be happier if I am the one who is right.
But I think it can be possible for him to be a really energized or wired (on drugs) ISFP to cause this type of attitude.
^ I meant “of ESFJ” lol.
I see what you are getting at and also my misunderstanding, more even than you mentioned.
Though I think I have some understanding of the functions, how they behave in different places is still a mystery.
And I might better learn to listen to the smaller voice saying Brand believes what what I see. There is a damn good chance he has Ni. And the other small voice that said his eyes are not warm and dancing like an ENFP. The ENFP’s eyes are intense in a different way. They are intense because they see you.
One difficulty was that the one person I know who I think is ISFP talks slowly. He can speed up when he is passionate about something, has thought about it a lot, but not near so fast and fluent an Russell Brand who feels so adept. It seems like what I see as Ne, an ability to pull things as needed from the ether just may be well developed in his case?
And of course the ISFP I see may not be what I think he is either.
The Russell Brand video didn’t bother me much . Maybe cause I’ve seen so little of him or I just get along decently with ISFP’s, dunno.
I don’t think he was being exclusive or that he was the only one getting said divine messages. He was trying to say it is there for the finding by anyone and everyone. He does ‘see’ it though and feels he must spread the message to those that haven’t found it yet though, so I that could definitely feel like being talked down to.
And when I said his speech was confident, I was thinking of… how to explain? Yes, Fe comes across quite confidently, but I am shaking in my shoes, unless writing it, and even then, self doubt is pervasive. Even things I write confidently don’t get posted half the time. Doubt.
Whereas it could be that extroverts feel more confident in their ability to mingle and express themselves, but maybe the speech isn’t as confident? I don’t know. Seems they are confident [compared] to me.
I noted his hands shaking though…
Maybe you could throw me a bone and list some more ISFP’s not lost in the loop?
Excellent deduction Blake and a very good challenge. At first I thought ENFP, but he’s not an effective enough teacher, caring not a jot about his audience. His delivery is very fluid, which foxed me at first, more ENXP ish I guess, but no eye contact. He reminds me too much of an ISFP guy I know that preached about the environment; he committed suicide. I hope the TM works for Russell.
I can see why Blake is going with ISFP here, and if all I had to base my opinion on was the set of videos in the last article, I’d probably think the same. But as an unlucky Brit, I’ve been exposed to a lot of Russell Brand and I’ve always seen him as pretty much the definition of an ENFP, albeit one with a perhaps rather weak tertiary function. I think TE does show up, though, in his very strong ability to articulate his (scattered and not very substantial) thoughts. I can’t imagine an ISFP being this articulate.
I know he projects very strong FI, but he comes across as someone who’s discovered the beauty of FI and has embraced it to the extent that’s it’s become fairly authentic rather than just a show. I see FE in his ability to understand very quickly what the social dynamic in the room is (see the video below), but he strikes me as someone who’s discovered the gift of his auxillary function and is using it to the max – in defiance of social expectations rather than in ignorance of them. So, I see him as a rather healthy ENFP, albeit an unusual one for sure.
Anyway, I thought I’d post this video as I think it shows a different side to the man to the videos Blake posted in his last article. It’s also a pretty funny.
Doesn’t seem P to me. He comes to quick conclusions.
Hahaha, He got a bit ENTJish in this one kind of how ISFP’s can get, but way more open. I still agree with you though.
Yes, he actually seems almost ENFJ-like in this video. He’s like a combination of all the ENFPs and ENFJs I know.
I can’t imagine an ISFP being this articulate.
He isn’t particularly articulate, which is the very thing these fucking tool newscasters are making fun of him for in this video.
Particularly that blond bitch with her stupid facial expressions as if she could pretense to some form of mocking intelligence.
Anyway, Katie, Brand does not have Fe very much in evidence. If he was an ENFP he would have mopped up the floor with these tools. Like, if he was a Stephen Colbert or something truly Ne dominant.
Why?
Because Ne genuinely does not care.
“Go ahead and make a fool of me. You’re just giving yourselves rope with which to hang yourself with.”
Yeah, so Russell does not come off as particularly articulate in this video. But, he does come off as more likable.
However, this does not change my impression of him as an ISFP. If anything it enhances it due to him being more low-key and making jaunty and sensational asides about sex and sexy boots and such. I see more Se in evidence in this video.
Hmm, I disagree, but nevermind 🙂
LOL!
So very Nietzsche-ie but not.. Ni-Fi vs Fi-Ni.. 😀
@Olivia
“He got a bit ENTJish in this one kind of how ISFP’s can get, but way more open.”
Yeah! I’ve seen ISFPs kind of act suddenly like ENTJs in terms of power and seeming insight. Like they can actually be really good disciplinarians or sports troup leaders for example.
I think that is what that was.
Actually it could be that he is just being a poker, poking people. I can never figure out if that is the entj inside the isfp or just the isfp inside the isfp via Se. Like poking is shadow stuff or not. I do know though that isfps sometimes like to poke at others.
Blake nailed it, he is indeed a very crazy ISFP.
It’s also interesting to notice that he also has a pretty nice Te, which means that he can go on rambling about this crazy shit with an impressive level of conviction for an ISFP. At the same time, he fails to create legit rapport and understanding (Fi). He’s also somewhat of a stud and womanizer (damn, he was married to Katy Perry). Pretty interested in altered states of consciousness (like drugs, sex, meditation and so on).
There’s no way on Earth he would be ENFP or ENTP. I’ve met mystical ENFPs and ENTPs, and they do not sound like that at all. That is Ni for sure, and it’s tertiary Ni.
Yes, ISFP. I’ve met them too deeply to miss one.
Damn, I’m perplexed. I couldn’t see the Ni overdrive that was under my nose, I suppose because on planet INFJ Ni manifests so differently – facepalm. But that’s all good and I’ve gained a valuable insight from Blake’s reveal. What’s perplexing me is the argument that RB is ISFP. Two of the people I’ve been closest to (my mother and my ex-partner) were ISFP – or so I thought – and in so many ways they were almost the polar opposite of Brand.
Others have mentioned the ISFP struggle with verbal expression and this is one of the characteristics that helped me type my people. I agree with Blake that RB is not particularly articulate – he has verbal diarrhea which is a different thing altogether and the more agitated he becomes the more he appears like the sorry victim of a cholera attack. ISFPs in my experience are the opposite; they have verbal constipation and the greater the stress they are facing the harder they find it to say anything at all. Then there’s Brand’s interest in metaphysics. Ignoring the content, he clearly enjoys abstract thinking which comes across to me as very un-ISFPish. ISFPs live in the moment and can’t really be bothered with pondering the meaning of life, the universe and everything. I’ve experienced their Ni coming through in brilliant flashes but have never, ever seen it stuck in overdrive like this. Blake does say Brand is an atypical ISFP (he’s probably an atypical everything) but it still doesn’t compute for me.
Then there’s the whole ISFP hidden depths thing. I’m drawn to their cool vibe and Russell Brand, to my mind, is the epitome of uncool. ISFPs are secretive; Brand blabs incessantly to any passing audience. ISFPs tend to have a calm, gentle, compliant exterior but an internal fascination with disorder, with the dangerous and the forbidden (which of course makes them the kind of complex beings INFJs love). But retaining self-control is important to them. My partner had a fascination with drugs and a pretty heavy drug habit when younger, but said what had interested him was the challenge of ‘being able to do drugs well.’ i.e. enjoying the experience whilst retaining better self control than his friends.
ISFPs can be very flirtatious and seductive, but flirtation and seduction by definition involve subtlety and nuance; these are words I doubt anyone would apply to Brand’s lecherous style. Imagine Brand playing the Comte de Bastide in Dangerous Liaisons. Is sex addiction (in many ways a numbing of or attempt to escape from the senses) something we’re likely to see when Se is in the auxiliary?
Russell Brand is incontinent, in the sense that he seems unable to keep anything in and this, to me, is diametrically opposite to your average ISFP. Are ISFPs the type to publicly announce their new heroin addiction or to invite interviews about their sex addiction?
I’m even struggling on the basic introversion/extraversion question. As Katie points out, Brand, does not always come across as lost in his own world, disengaged from those around him. It’s true that when he rants he avoids eye contact, but I come back to the point that his rants have a manic quality and Brand (of course) is open about being bipolar. Are we seeing his ‘normal’, healthy (healthier?) persona during these appearances? The Australian psychologist Dorothy Rowe argues that in the final analysis the threat of annihilation of the self is perceived by introverts as disorder, chaos and loss of self-mastery and by extraverts as rejection and abandonment by others. So, is Russell Brand more concerned about his personal gnosis per se, or about it being a tool with which to gain and retain attention from others? Is he more concerned about formulating ideas that could make a difference or about receiving a constant supply of attention, good or bad? To me he comes across as extraverted – awkward, but extraverted.
My head is spinning. The light bulb went on about Ni, but looking at each type holistically rather than function by function, Russell Brand seems far removed from the vibe of an ISFP. I’m wondering whether I’ve taken a wrong turn about ISFPs and consequently mistyped others. I’m wondering whether I even understand introversion and extraversion. What a fun, fascinating and infuriating puzzle.
Well put Karen 🙂
I would have thought that it obvious to everyone in the world that Brand is the quintessential example of an extreme extrovert.
Regarding his incontinence, I don’t think it is as superficial as that. He seems to believe that we are living below our potential and so he’s kind of aggressively pushing the boundaries to trigger an enquiry into our potential. That’s where the “mission” thing comes in. It’s not that he is off in his own la-la land and not aware of others. It’s that he knows the others are living below their potential and so he is ironically tuning out their disinterest and blasting away, hoping that something gets stirred up. Something like that.
ISFP…. Isn’t Bob Dylan an ISFP? Very unlike Brand. Dylan is unassuming and denies the label of being “spokesman of his generation”, whereas Brand is out there and would love that label, but he would include everyone in it.
@Katie – I’m glad I’m not alone in my confusion 🙂
@Martin Gifford – I don’t think RB’s ideas are superficial. My comment about incontinence relates to his inability to resist deluging the world not only with his ever-changing philosophies but also with the most minute and sordid details of his private life … non stop. He has no boundaries and believes his dramarama is genuinely captivating. His ideas are quite deep, but his behaviour is about as shallow as you can get.
From what I recall Blake believes Bob Dylan is an INTJish INFJ. And although I can’t see Russell Brand as an introvert I’m trying to get my head round Blake’s thinking on this as there’s always method in his madness isn’t there?!
Many people who are questioning Russell Brand being ISFP are biased toward the MBTI’s common sense. I think most ISFPs have a lot of struggles during their lives: self image and self steem issues, sensory addiction, academical failure, social awkwardness, agressiveness and so on. They are the most dyonisian type: they are always struggling with the opposites (the sensorial and the spiritual, for instance) and with society’s demands, since all modern societies are apolonian.
Now, this basically means that ISFPs can come in infinite forms. They can be sweet, fragile, non-verbal, artsy and cool, but they can also be murderers, marginal, jokers, rebels, mystics, cocky sex fiends, drug addicted, vain playboys, or pretty much everything. They can be annoyingly ordinary, but even when they’re ordinary they have an unique flavor.
Russell Brand is not ordinary. In my view, he’s a portrait of an ISFP who digged deeply into his uncounscious (Ni and Te) and tried to make himself whole. The chaotic behaviour isn’t a signal of unhealthiness: it’s actually a by-product of the contact with the inferior functions. He still struggles with his Te, but he seems to have conquered Ni, and that’s very uncommon for an ISFP. It’s beautiful, in some sense.
Hi Lucas
“They are the most dyonisian type: they are always struggling with the opposites.” I’ve noticed that as well, and the struggles you describe them wrestling with. I’d go so far as to say ISFPs tend to become self-absorbed with the paradoxes in their nature, occasionally to the point of obsession.
“Many people who are questioning Russell Brand being ISFP are biased toward the MBTI’s common sense.” I don’t think I understand what you are saying here.
If ISFPs can come in so many varieties, what in your experience are their defining characteristics?
Karen’s question: “If ISFPs can come in so many varieties, what in your experience are their defining characteristics?” That question is the one that constantly plagues in the human typing puzzle. The question about even the basics of introversion and extroversion are also mine. The Dorothy Rowe information about the perception of introversion/extroversion: the threat
the annihilation of the self = disorder, chaos, and loss of self mastery for introverts; the threat of rejection and abandonment for extroverts. Oh, that’s something I have never been exposed to and very helpful. So, I’m left with same question as you about Brand. “Personal gnosis” or about a need to “gain and retain attention from others.” He seems to want both but his primary motivation seems to be gain and retain attention from others. Or at least, it seems that is where it started. He mentioned something early on about not wanting to be invisible and anonymous.
Do ISFPs really want so much personal fame? Or are they more like George Harrison who “didn’t want to be a star, wanted just to play guitar?” There are many famous and performing ISFPs, but do they usually want to be personally famous or famous only for their art? I always thought it was the latter.
Lucas and Karen,
about ISFPs being the most Dionysian, I thought that may be ESTP or ESFP. I would say ISFPs have a heavy dose of that but don’t they also regularly exhibit some Apollonian features too? I mean, with the exception of the atypical flavor of a presumed ISFP Brand, aren’t most quiet and under the radar even if they are a little or a lot outside of the box? They don’t necessarily show flagrant hedonism, even if they have a strong drive that way. Wouldn’t those who show large scale hedonism be the most purely Dionysian? Didn’t Blake describe ESTP as the most purely sanguine? Aren’t sanguine people pretty Dionysian?
Darn, more questions than answers. To get very basic, is not the first letter of MBTI usually indicative of the overall energy type you can expect from a person? Or isn’t it most of the time at least? I do not get the idea that Brand ever enjoys being alone from all the reading I’ve done about him through the years, but since I don’t know him and some of it was gossip about him, that may not be so. Do I have to throw away everything I ever learned to do MBTI typing? Maybe so. That’s okay, but I’ll admit frustration and discomfort with not knowing.
@Karen
Like all the other types, ISFPs have a pretty specific vibe, but it’s hard to describe actions, patterns of behaviour or common features that would apply just to ISFPs. I think most of them fall under the stereotype: non-verbal, sensual, sponteneous and trying to fit in at all costs.
@Rita
In “Psychological Types” (if you’ve never read it, I’d highly recommend), Jung dedicates an entire chapter to Nietzsche’s dichotomy between apolonian and dionysian. In this chapter, he pretty much associates Dionysus with the sensing-feeling functions, and Apolo with intuition-thinking functions. I personally disagree with this association.
In “Gods and Goddesses in Everyone”, Bolen describes Dionysus as following:
“Ambivalent. He was [is] nurtured, mothered and fathered by Zeus. Preferred to be with women and often came to their rescue. Women liked his influence, while men reacted strongly with ambivalent feelings.
Dionysus was close to nature and women, familiar with the mystical realm and feminine world, often an unwelcome and disturbing element, a cause of conflict and madness, “the god of ecstasy and terror, of wildness and the most blessed deliverance”, mystic or murderer, divine child (specialness of person or destiny), actively repressed in men, regularity and constancy were foreign, shaman, psychological androgynous, capable of major emotional shifts precipitated by minimal events, focused on the moment, dancing and lovemaking were especially important, intense, spontaneous, sought full sensual experience (all five senses), tantric yoga advocate, individualistic (not a team player), non-competitive, wildly promiscuous or celibate, erotic nature easily evoked, impersonal in lovemaking, sex experience more important than conquest, needed to leave behind the divine child image and become the hero. Rescued his mother from Hades.
In Greek mythology Dionysus was the only god who rescued and restored (instead of dominating or raping) women, who represent diminished earlier goddesses, and whose people and worship had been conquered. “By ‘old boy’ standards, the Dionysus man is likely to be either too feminine, too mystic, too counter-culture, too threatening, or too attractive and too fascinating.”
Although Se-dominants are undoubtedly the wildest types around, they’re also perfectly adaptable to any enviroment or culture. They lack this “lonely mystical wanderer” quality that makes Dionysus so disruptive and anti-patriarchal societies. Dionysus is a tribal god, and in my view ISFPs embody this archetype more than any other type.
I think it’s wrong to associate Dionysus with hedonism, because there’s a lot of Ni in dionysian archetype, which means that the essence of Dionysus is the paradox. It’s the ideia that the division between the opposites (sensual and spiritual, pleasure and pain, birth and death, and so on) is just merely a trick played by Apolo, and at the ultimate level of reality there’s an underlying unity.
Hey Lucas, that was an awesome answer! Good job!
Basically, I agree with everything you said, with a few additions and one point of slight contention.
Let’s recap with what you said in bold:
Like all the other types, ISFPs have a pretty specific vibe, but it’s hard to describe actions, patterns of behaviour or common features that would apply just to ISFPs. I think most of them fall under the stereotype: non-verbal, sensual, sponteneous and trying to fit in at all costs.
Absolutely. Very hard to describe a type based on patterns of behavior that are common ONLY to that type. In Brand’s case, I was basically saying that he could ONLY be an ISFP based on two things: Ni and the tertiary position in classic loop. It seemed to me in Brand’s case, that this dynamic of the Ni function in classic tertiary loop was writ so large that from this hyperbolic dynamic, I could deduce that this guy MUST be an ISFP. ISTP is out of the question of course because they don’t really do this at all due to Ti dominance. Anyway, so yeah, agree with you here.
In “Psychological Types” (if you’ve never read it, I’d highly recommend), Jung dedicates an entire chapter to Nietzsche’s dichotomy between apolonian and dionysian. In this chapter, he pretty much associates Dionysus with the sensing-feeling functions, and Apolo with intuition-thinking functions. I personally disagree with this association.
I too disagree with this association. The Dionysian archetype is not best characterized in Myers-Briggs functions by simply opposing the sensing-feeling functions with the intuitive-thinking functions.
As you go on to say, Ni is very much involved in the Dionysian archetype, although, that has nowhere been said, that I’m aware of. I think this shows a misunderstanding of Ni, especially, the INFJ/ENFJ version of it.
It also shows a misunderstanding of Se. More on this with your latter comments.
In “Gods and Goddesses in Everyone”, Bolen describes Dionysus as following:
“Ambivalent. He was [is] nurtured, mothered and fathered by Zeus. Preferred to be with women and often came to their rescue. Women liked his influence, while men reacted strongly with ambivalent feelings.
Yes, Dionysus was very much a god of women. Women worshiped him. Why? Because he had women psychology, but, he was a man. He wasn’t just feminine. He blended the masculine and feminine in a intoxicating way. Much of the “rock star” archetype is modern day Dionysus. Check out the band The Doors and Jim Morrison for a good example of what this looks like in relatively modern parlance. Wild women, golden copulations in the streets of LA, being torn to pieces by women in sexual and chthonic frenzy. “Ride the snake”. “There’s danger on the edge of town”. In short, just check out Jim Morrison to understand the Dionysian. He is basically a guy that consciously attempted to embody and recreate this very archetype through his music with The Doors.
Morrison was branded a disturber of the peace, an inciter of riot. There was his famous arrest in Miami where he was arrested and accused of trying to start a riot.
Basically, rock stars are idols of women worship because they unleash and unrepress sexual feelings that are laying dormant in the society. Rock stars whip women up and get them hot and excited. And if that rock star is not careful he will be torn to pieces by these very women that love and worship him. The Dionysian loves women but once he activates women’s sexual nature, all holy hell can break lose. This is the very thing patriarchal men are afraid of, which is why they have “ambivalence” towards the Dionysian. There may also be some envy there because the Dionysian man has a way with women that no other type really has. And he really gets to experience her nature as well, as opposed to merely control her.
Dionysus was close to nature and women, familiar with the mystical realm and feminine world, often an unwelcome and disturbing element, a cause of conflict and madness, “the god of ecstasy and terror, of wildness and the most blessed deliverance”, mystic or murderer, divine child (specialness of person or destiny), actively repressed in men, regularity and constancy were foreign, shaman, psychological androgynous, capable of major emotional shifts precipitated by minimal events, focused on the moment, dancing and lovemaking were especially important, intense, spontaneous, sought full sensual experience (all five senses), tantric yoga advocate, individualistic (not a team player), non-competitive, wildly promiscuous or celibate, erotic nature easily evoked, impersonal in lovemaking, sex experience more important than conquest, needed to leave behind the divine child image and become the hero. Rescued his mother from Hades.
In Greek mythology Dionysus was the only god who rescued and restored (instead of dominating or raping) women, who represent diminished earlier goddesses, and whose people and worship had been conquered. “By ‘old boy’ standards, the Dionysus man is likely to be either too feminine, too mystic, too counter-culture, too threatening, or too attractive and too fascinating.”
Exactly. All highly on point.
Although Se-dominants are undoubtedly the wildest types around, they’re also perfectly adaptable to any enviroment or culture.
Here is where I have a slight contention. I do not think that Se-dominants are the wildest types around. The title of the “wildest” function around would definitely go to Ni.
I do agree that the polarity between Ni and Se is the most Dionysian axis. The struggle between those two opposites are what I think the crux of the Dionysian is, mixed with a feeling emphasis over thinking.
What people seem to forget sometimes is that Se is pretty conformist despite all its skin deep wildness. Ni isn’t. Ni will take things to the farthest extent. Ni is more to the point if we are talking true rebellion, individuality, and non-conformism. And its approach to the sensual realm can be characterized as “extreme”, such that an Ni type can know no boundaries when it comes to “getting it on”.
Dionysus is a tribal god, and in my view ISFPs embody this archetype more than any other type.
I pretty much agree, but would add in there ENFJs as embodying the Dionysian archetype even more characteristically, but, it depends on your interpretation of the Dionysian and what you want to emphasize. Perhaps, ENFJ would be the more Roman version of Dionysus.
And don’t forget INFJ! Yes, they can be quite the little Dionysian. And pretty consciously too. Jim Morrison was an INFJ. Yes, he was. I would say that INFJ is the type that is most balanced between the Apollonian and the Dionysian nature.
I think it’s wrong to associate Dionysus with hedonism, because there’s a lot of Ni in dionysian archetype, which means that the essence of Dionysus is the paradox.
Yes, I agree vociferously! I think it is a distortion and oversimplification to think of the Dionysian as The Hedonist. That’s a rather shallow interpretation that misses the core of the struggle you allude to.
Man, good work dude! Awesome answer to Karen and Rita!
Lucas,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. By the way, your description and use of language are beautiful. Yes, to reading Psychological Types. No, to the Bolon. I shall look into it.
Perhaps the reason typing can be so difficult is not in the variety within a type, but because a variety of types exist in people. Their expressions vary within the proportion to which they allow some of the types to express themselves or what is brought forth when in contact with others. Each interaction between just two people brings an ensemble with it. No wonder introversion is for some of us preferred. That is a whole lotta people and energy to sort out.
Oh, from your statements, I can absolutely see why you see Russell Brand as an ISFP. From this description, he is quite Dionysian and is quite intriguing. I agree with you about your statements about his “chaotic behavior” not being altogether unhealthy and somewhat “beautiful.” Yes, I see that too. That is why I said I could see him attempting to go up brain rather than Lizard brain. I see a lot of resilience in him, but still think there is some extreme unbalance and hope that his explorer nature does not burn him out or do him in. Someone mentioned his shaking hands. I had not noticed that specifically, but I noticed extreme shakiness nevertheless. His limbic system is too activated too often it seems. That leads to break down in body and mind. I don’t like to see beauty destroyed, so I hope he finds a marriage between peace and activation.
@Blake
Ni-doms and aux can be wild, but true wildness is Se domain, which is something that tires Ni too fast (unless they’re on drugs, because that turns everything upside down). My mom is ENFJ, and she couldn’t be farther from Dionysus archetype: I think Fe-doms are too concerned with social structure to let their wild side come out. Yes, she does have a disruptive knack (and she was fine to let me explore whatever I wanted at a very early age), but she herself is pretty much a society-oriented woman. Most Fe-doms I know are indeed society-oriented.
Se-doms are also society-oriented, but those rare ESxPs who are trying the wild side for real, wow, it’s just unbeliavable. Their presence can be so disruptive and frenzied that they could indeed be the shaman of an spiritual orgy with drums, a fire pit and animal sacrifice in the heart of an ancient florest.
INFJs can be dionysian, that’s right, and I think they are even more entitled to this label in modern socities, because their art often disturbs our semantic mainstream with the symbolic.
But in group sessions (orgies, improvisational theatre, dance circles, fight clubs, shamanic rites, and so on) they’ll have troubles embodying Dionysus spontaneous energy without drugs. Dionysus is the master of all the performers, and INFJs struggle with performance (in a Se fashion).
@Rita
Yes, absolutely, a variety of types exists in a person. And not everything comes from personality type: there are also complexes, archetypes, astrology, and so on. Typology is a field that pretty much no one cares, so I think we are lucky to know at least a bit about these things.
English is not my first language, so I’m sorry to express myself in such a boring and childish way. I swear to Dionysus I’m a great brazilian poet 🙂
Dear Dionysius, Lucas!
You express yourself in a “boring and childish way?” If that is the case, I’m a dunce, as English is my first language. I have little trouble believing you’re a great poet in Portuguese if this is how you write in English. Amazing.
Regarding the Fe thing, that sounds right. I think Fe restrains the wild to a large degree. I may be wild in my head, in writing and even in momentary action from time to time, but I conduct myself with manners and decorum most usually. That can be exhausting too, but to do otherwise is going against the grain and unnatural and disrupting in social circumstances. Even when pushing towards a change, INFJs will generally utilize emotional intelligence of group dynamics and not wreak more havoc than will be helpful to long term goals. It is a collaborative function as I see it, anyway.
Regarding performance, it would take a lot for most of us to make a steady diet of that. It is not the smooth process that it probably is for people with a heavier dose of Se. It must be rehearsed, visualized, embodied, and studied. Perhaps INFJs have enough to utilize it organically in some spontaneous spurts, but probably cannot be counted on the way people with Se can do it.
@Rita
It’s always comforting (and sometimes startling) to discover we are not alone in our confusion, isn’t it?!
Who would have guessed Russell Brand would have generated so much debate about the first tenet of MBTI, introversion vs extroversion? It feels it should be an easy aspect to type, but here we have someone who appears to be an off-the-scale extrovert (just look at that video clip you posted of RB with the egregious Westboro Baptist Church lot), yet apparently types as an introvert.
I’m glad you found the Dorothy Rowe piece helpful. 🙂 She writes a lot about introversion-ambiversion-extroversion, arguing that understanding where we sit on the continuum is vital for personal growth and creating a meaningful life. Quite a bit of her book The Successful Self is devoted to this. Here are some snippets about the fundamental differences between introverts and extraverts (extroverts).
“When I use the word extravert I mean experiencing your existence as being a member of a group, as the relationship, the connection, between yourself and others. When I use the word introvert I mean experiencing your existence as the progressive development of your individuality in terms of clarity, achievement, and authenticity.”
“To extraverts the external world seems more real than the inner world, while to the introvert the inner world seems the more real.”
INTROVERT OR EXTROVERT? – USEFUL THINGS TO CONSIDER
1. You are asked to explain why you did something. If you always have an answer — sensible or not — you are probably an introvert. If your response tends to be, “I don’t know, I just do things”, you are probably an extrovert. Faced with a problem, introverts tend to think for some time before acting. Extroverts prefer to get started.
2. Your day is planned; something happens to disrupt it. If your reaction is one of anxiety and confusion, you are probably an introvert. If your first thought is, “How delightful and stimulating”, you are probably an extrovert.
3. Extroverts want everybody to like and approve of them. Introverts want to win approval from a small group of people whose opinions they value.
4. Extroverts want to achieve in order to be liked, respected or acclaimed. Introverts feel that achievement is important for its own sake.
5.Which of the following matters to you more? Your relationship with other people or a sense of personal development, control and organization? The former suggests you are an extrovert, the latter an introvert.
6. Introverts fear chaos because they feel that they will shatter into pieces, while extroverts fear being abandoned and rejected because they feel that they will disappear, They will look in the mirror and see no one there.
The following quote struck a chord with me about Russell Brand:
“Extraverts who talk a great deal do so because talking usually ensures other people’s attention — good or bad – thereby reassuring the extravert of their sense of existence. Non-stop extravert talkers, unsure of their existence, believe, ‘I talk, therefore I am.’ Compulsion to share their thoughts may mislead the extravert’s audience into believing they are a deeper thinker or a more ardent believer than they actually are.”
The more I read and watch the stronger my conviction that Brand is an extrovert, which then raises the question whether we can accurately type someone as xxxx or yyyy because they share the general vibe of that type, despite being its polar opposite on one axis. If we were concluding Brand is INFJ (yikes) or ENTP, i.e. essentially ambivert types, the introversion/extroversion question wouldn’t be so perplexing, but my understanding is that the ISFP personality tends toward marked introversion.
@Lucas
I can only second what Rita says about your wonderful, lyrical English! Wow. You’ve given me lots to read and think about regarding dyonisian and apollonian archetypes.
“I think Fe-doms are too concerned with social structure to let their wild side come out” Yes, I saw this in my ENFJ ex husband; there was a tension between his wilder tendencies and his need to present himself to the world in a more conventional way. The latter always won in the end, and he resented the fact it did.
ISFP. harrumph grumble grumble and harrumph. He’s ENFP.
One can see how this very same dynamic comes up, not because of some existential Ni driven perspective, but because talking endlessly in order to bring about the world the individual wants is the only tool they believe they have. He has will and he has vision, but no power. What else is he going to do except jawjack?
Not unlike the dynamic @blake describes with INFJ’s (Your Throne Awaits article).
Now, me continuing to argue that Brand is ENFP, THAT’S some Ni “I’ve been to the mountain and seen the truth and won’t ever be convinced otherwise” shit. 😉
ENFPs are not at all like this. They cannot talk like this and specially not with this kind of vocabulary.
I’ve met one ENFP who was mystical, and he wasn’t at all like this. He had the sweetest humour I’ve ever seen: he was never obscene, edgy or agressive. It was a light and sweet kind of humour, but still very quick, funny, creative and off-the-box. Ne and Fi humour. Not Se. I’m not saying that all ENFPs are sweets (I’ve met darker ones), but I just don’t see Ne-dominance in Russell Brand. I think his unpredictability is secondary Se.
When he talked about mysticism, he was serious and objective, but he never went on full mode (like saying that there was one ultimate reality beyond senses that pervaded everything). Although he was a very well-developed yogi, he wouldn’t go on rambling about enlightenment with this heavy and prophetic tone. This is Ni.
Lucas, what about ESFP’s though? I think he’s an ESFP
I don’t think Russell is ESFP.
You see, there are loads of ESFPs in the “alternative circles”, so to say, specially female ones. Most youtube yoga vloggers are ESFPs: they make amazing asana performers, very kind, sweet and sexy personas, charismatic entertainers and so on. They are crazy and fast. But they’re also very aware about their craziness, and still pretty much grounded. When they talk about mysticism, they’ll often not use Ni, because it’s too hard for them: they’ll use Fi. ESFPs rarely come across as heavy, specially in public settings. Se-dominance was described by Jung as a perfect adaptation to the enviroment. I agree with that. Se-dominants are fine and dandy in their skins, and just the fact that they are interested in holistic thinking shows an impressive degree of Ni development. If an Se-dominant could talk spontaneously about the “ultimate reality that gives birth, sustain and destroy the manifested realm of experience”, damn, he/she would have conquered the inferior function. Think of an Ni-dominant who is a master sex performer. Tricky, right? Because it would be incredibly hard for a Ni-dominant to master advanced body-consciousness techniques. They can be decent in lovemaking, even good, but there’s a limit. It’s too much Se for them, and it would demand a lot of time in Se-mode. They like it and somehow want it badly, but they will not go until the end of the line.
It’s true that ISFPs rarely come across as talkative, specially in public settings. And this is the reason why I think Russell’s presence is so disruptive. I think his exploration of his uncounscious made him somewhat able to manipulate his uncounscious functions (Ni and Te) along with Se spontaneous energy, but it’s still quite chaotic to watch, specially because he presents himself as an entertainer, joker and unpredictable man. This puzzling quality is pure ISFP, in my view.
“Particularly that blond bitch with her stupid facial expressions as if she could pretense to some form of mocking intelligence.”
Just so you know:) I enjoyed that deliciously. You see! Infps aren’t THAT nice:)
I’ve been noting for years that Micah (sp?) has got some strange energy emanating from her and the grimacing you alluded to. She is always irritated I swear. In this video she actually seems less irritated than usual.
What made me want to slap her is when she so condescendingly stated she did not know Brand and was not familiar with pop culture. It was mostly the WAY she said it, as if he was beneath her. Additionally, if you are legitimate and are going to interview someone, wouldn’t you think it’s good practice to…. I don’t know, maybe? Hmmm? Do a wee amount of research!!!
@ Rita
You know I assumed that’s what she said and then I kind of just deleted it in my brain because it didn’t make sense someone could talk like that about a guest, who is sitting right there. It is pretty rude. And kind of weird.
Here is Russell Brand doing a fantastic job interacting with some of the most obnoxious and toxic people around — the Westboro Baptist Church people. In case you have not heard of these people, they are a lunatic church group who seem to have a one negative note message. They interrupt funeral services of soldiers and shout “God Hates Fags.” This seems a more grounded Brand, in my opinion. Strangely enough, he seems to have something of a softening effect on these hateful people too. I live in a state where these guys rear their ugly heads a lot and they are usually much more venomous and vitriolic than they are here.
https://youtu.be/OBA6qlHW8po
That was a fascinating watch Rita!
If I were typing Russell Brand on this alone his adroitness and skilful mockery of himself and the WBC would convince me he was ENTP. The moderate side of his personality seems to come out when he’s dealing with people he (understandably – these guys are loathsome) sees as inferior and can safely and gently take the piss out of in front of a compliant audience. His most manic, aggressive, disengaged rants erupt when he’s being interviewed by articulate establishment figures in front of a divided audience. All of which reinforces my conclusion that we’re seeing the extrovert’s need for approval and fear of rejection. Saying “I really like you” to this odious pair was another tell.
Did anyone else notice the height difference between Brand and the four gay friends he brought on? The way he stood behind towering over them reminded me of other people’s comments about his messiah complex.
Karen,
I’m glad you liked it. He is always animated and physical and high energy no matter where I’ve seen him, but this seems to be around the time a more authentic Brand emerged. I believe that was after a few years of sobriety and before Katy Perry and the later more intense stuff on his. Even when he was being interviewed by others, I remember his demeanor being quite liked this.
You think he is seeing these people as “inferior?’ I am certain he saw their message as inferior, but I don’t think he saw them as inferior. He seemed to have that SP in the moment thing they have. He was impish, clever, playful, humorous, quick, and non-defensive. His “I love you” was delivered with childlike sincerity and applying his universal value of honoring the human worth of another. It was not heavy, it was just light and true and in the moment. At least this is how I see it. To me this is Brand at his best.
I will have to consider what you say about the environment and the circumstances. I thought it was a moment in his evolution where he struck his most authetic note, but maybe it was just a matter of circumstances. Regarding towering over his friends, Brand has always been a space invader. He is elegantly awkward in that. It is part of his appeal and his ability to delightfully disrupt. He does move about like a court jester and an impish dancer. It does look like an ENTP in some ways, but they do not seem so flowingly physical as he does. At least I don’t think so. I see ENTPs as more like St. Bernard puppies in movement (not in their slobbering). I also think an ENTP would be hard pressed not to show more disdain and more barbed retorts than Brand did here. I would be hard pressed to deliver that much openness and apply that much kindness to these people. I may value those things, but to deliver them in real time with sincere warmth, would be a Hurculean effort for me. For Brand, it seemed the right note of lightness, humor, and charm.
Karen, just like you, I am having a hard time with the ISFP thing too, despite how well constructed the arguments. I can only settle with SP. It’s as close as I can be moved at this point. I don’t mean to be stubborn, but I just cannot see how this can be. Motivation is my thing and I cannot find an alignment with any primary introverted motivation of the variety you mentioned and we discussed before. Those were helpful descriptions. Thank you for that.
This exercise was fun and I’ll leave it there and maybe pick it up in the future when the pieces coalesce and click into place.
When discussing Brand’s emergence of a more authentic self, I meant to say it was before Katy Perry and his later more intense expression on some of his Trews videos. Oops.
@ Karen,
I amend my statement and I think you are right; Brand does see these WB people as “inferior” on some level. That may be why he can treat them so respectfully. They are no threat to his ego. It took me a long time to put all the pieces together and watching more videos side by side. I was slow in doing this and made the mistake of wanting to credit the best in him. You were on to something there.
@Rita
“Brand does see these WB people as “inferior” on some level. That may be why he can treat them so respectfully. They are no threat to his ego.”
Yes, that’s what I concluded. It’s sad Brand’s need for attention is so dominant he seems able to behave in the endearing way we see in this clip only when completely confident about his own superiority.
I agree also about his Mansonesque eyes and space invasion. The chilling thing to me wasn’t the way he stood behind the gay guys, but the fact he seems to have deliberately chosen people of the same height that he could physically dwarf. Brand is 6’1″ and those guys must be about 5’6″. Lining them up and standing over them made him look like a puppet master. Could be coincidence, but I suspect not. Call me cynical ….
Karen,
“Puppet master.” Lol Perfect description in my mind. I think that is kind of how he conducts himself in the world. He is the only real thing to him and everything and everyone else is to be played with for his amusement.
Karen,
His puppets must be perfectly responsive to his aims and properly adore him or they get this:
https://youtu.be/UD37RMvZC24
He’s a petulant child here who needs a nap.
Hi Blake, I’d love to hear your thoughts sometime on how NI in ISTPs manifests, particularly when it’s in overdrive. My brother’s an ISTP and I’m always trying to figure him out. He’s very laid back most of the time, but sometimes he goes into a mode in which he becomes hyper critical of everything – similar to how an INFJ becomes in their ni-ti loop but with less of an intellectual flavour… When he’s relaxed, his NI manifests really nicely as a sort of down-to-earth wisdom, but when it’s in overdrive, it’s incredibly annoying. Anyway, probably a topic for another article, but if you ever have time to comment on this, I’d appreciate it. Thanks!
Hi Katie!
Let’s save it for another article. There is only so much I can focus on at one time. Yes, I think “hypercritical” might be something an ISTP could get into. Many of them seem to be misanthropic in one way or another.
One thing is for sure. An ISTP will not be a florid and extreme as someone like Russell Brand because of their Ti dominance, which keeps them pretty well rounded and temperate. It is pretty much the difference between Scorpio and Aquarius. Scorpio is a sign of emotional extremes, Aquarius, quite the opposite. An Aquarian can be infuriating for their lack of emotion and subjective investment.
In other words, An Aquarian can “lack all conviction” while a Scorpio can be “full of passionate intensity”. That’s a reference to the Yeat’s poem The Second Coming.
So, an ISTP in the throes of the tertiary Ni will not have that “passionate intensity” because the tertiary loop always occurs in the context of the dominant function, and in the case of an ISTP, their dominant Aquarian Ti prevents them from getting passionate.
Make sense?
It does, thanks 🙂
Damn, this is exactly what i thought ! ISFP makes perfect sense – i should have posted my answer before the revelation from you, Blake. When i saw your comment that this guy is in the grip of his tertiary function, what i did is – checking our which types have the Ni as their tertiary function. And when i saw that on top of tertiary Ni, ISFP has also a dominant Fi, then it was completely clear to me!
By the way, Blake, I was really disappointed last time by (what seemed to be) your “dismissive” tone towards Russel. I thought to myself “does he really not see that Russel is just speaking the truth ” even though in his own overexcited manner? But now i see that you know 😉 However the dismissive tone was due to HOW Russel is trying to communicate the true reality and not due to WHAT he is trying to say. Makes me heppy 🙂
I can be a slow learner, but I think I finally have it. Yes, to ISFP. I had to let all of the data brew and steep and could not help delving more into information (e.g., his writing and more observations about Mr. Brand. Perhaps the reason why ISFP was not so obvious is because something did not seem congruent. It seemed off. Well, in a way perhaps it was. Perhaps Russell Brand seems such an odd type for an ISFP is because he was not one originally. His history of trauma starting in childhood and years of drug use to numb his psychic pain and take him away from awful circumstances, changed his brain permanently. Yes, he has given birth to an ISFP on his way to healing. It is as real and true as if he had been born with it. He is a fascinating person. My logic could be off and many will say it is so, but this is the way I make sense of it. Or perhaps Blake and the rest of you are astute enough to recognize ISFP underneath the overlay of hyperkinetic, vociferous extroversion that replaced his inborn ISFP that would be more recognizable. I’m not sure which way it goes for him because we have no way to test this. However, ISFP is there. I can see that.
Blake,
Yes, I understand now. I could recognize a lot of ISFP in him and I understand what you meant by the loop, but it is just SO much more expressive and constant in this man than I’ve ever seen. His eyes always are so Charlie Mansonesque. I was never arguing against it or your logic of typing, I don’t think. I just could not completely accept it until I could look into it holistically as well as just intellectually. There is a LOT about him that I recognize from my personal ISFP contacts, but none were ever so energetic all the time. Hard to believe that the ones I know/ have known could have been even more disregulated and unruly than they are/were. I know knowing a few ISFPs doesn’t count for complete knowledge at all, but these people have made some of the most major impacts and impressions on me of all types, so I needed to suss this out from all kinds of angles that I normally wouldn’t. Sorry for taking up so much space in this exercise. It was more than a little fascinating. Thank you.
This exercise has been enlightening about the way types can express themselves in unexpected ways. It has been said that typing a person with a mental illness does not work well. I do think Brand displays some serious Cluster B traits, which cover up his ISFPness or his ISFPness emerged after serious trauma and jacking with his brain through drugs, recovery, serious excess, and meditation. Obviously, I don’t know him and have never met him so I cannot diagnose him, but I do think something quite unhealthy lurks in this man still.
In many of the videos I’ve seen of him, he is at his best and most relaxed and gentle and humorous when he has the “upper hand” and has a sense of control. When he is being interviewed and the interviewers aren’t succumbing to his attempts to woo, high jack, and mesmerize he becomes more and more tense and will ping pong between schmarmy charm and dismissal and rotate between compliments and insults. Also, the stuff he spews as the truth all the time does seem to possess the zeal of a man on a mission to convert people to — what? enlightement, his “revolution” (what is he actually proposing?), or to him? It is always unclear and seems to be shifting.
The space invader thing that he does I thought was part of his “act” to disrupt and disorganize in humorous fashion. However, it carries through to him being himself even in more serious interviews. It is somewhat predatory. It is somewhat disgusting to me. He frequently stands or sits too close. He touches people without their permission and far too familiarly and affectionately without having met them before. He took off one female interviewer’s earring and invaded her space and touched her throughout the interview. She was obviously bothered by it and not enchanted as he had hoped. He has no firm boundaries that I can detect. His comedy tour Messiah Complex may actually be a reality underneath what we are seeing. Instead of Russell Brand Enlightened Man, I’d say he is Russell Brand Emotionally Disregulated Man.
I wish him well, but think most folks would do well to keep him only on the television screen and not get within 10 feet of him or take much of anything he says too seriously. I understand he is entering into politics. That should be interesting. Isn’t there a Chinese curse that says “may you live in interesting times?”
I don’t understand where you’re seeing the zeal of a man on a mission. I see a devilish yet charming bloke from Essex mouthing off a lot. lol
Yeah, I can see that more with some of the other videos that have been posted, but, that impression only goes to confirm ISFP for me, not to depart from it. In other words, in some of these other videos where he is more laid-back, I think ISFP is easier to see.
Actually, the more I watch of anything with Brand in it, the more the ISFP impression is confirmed. No matter what video he is in. This only tends to confirm some stability to my typing method. At least as far as I am concerned.
The video I posted of Brand and which was the only one I saw prior to posting seems to be him at his most preachy and over-the-top. I purposely only watched that video to show that typing a person from a video montage such as this can be stable if one approaches typing in the way that I do.
I saw the ISFP dynamic at play in that montage regardless of all the “noise” that was overlaying it and was actually the reason I thought it would be an interesting typing challenge. I didn’t think most people would guess ISFP. I’m aware of that. But, nonetheless, I present it to you as such.
And with a certain simple reasoning that we don’t really need to get confused about. What does Ni look like? What does the tertiary in loop like? All that stuff that Brand is talking about and hammering on about in that video I posted are Ni-type things. The tendency to tertiarial looping is one of the best ways to identify any type when this dynamic is present.
It is obvious that Brand is doing this “big-time” in the video I posted. Ni. Tertiarial. It has a characteristic feeling to it. Annoyance is one of them. Insistent emphasis. Locking in. Looping. And so on.
Yes, in other videos I have seen since then, I have seen other sides of Brand. However, none of them depart from ISFP, and moreover, many of them show his Se auxiliary (his sexiness or devilish charm) more in evidence.
I don’t want to speculate too much, but, it may have been that Brand was more balanced when he was younger. But, I don’t know. All I know is what I see.
I see ISFP archetype through and through. Sometimes more balanced. Sometimes more excessive. But, still, same type pattern.
Oh yeah, I’m not trying to argue that he’s not an ISFP, I can see how he is one for sure. I just don’t really see the zeal and intensity that much.
Olivia,
The zeal is in a lot of videos out there. He talks about “a revolution” and such a lot. He is what you say also. The thread that flows through all that I see is his need to verbalize and be noticed. He is even dismissive even of his closest allies when it is their turn to talk by turning his back, interrupting, and smiling or making interactive faces with the audience. Being noticed seems to be his biggest driver. He is a very interesting fellow and lots and lots of people seem to be charmed. I can see why, but there is a zeal at times about him to spout the truth that looks at times like a cult figurehead. Maybe that’s just me. I always see him as someone who needs to be center stage in all matters. Where does the performance end and the man begin? Does he know?
@Rita
I share your concerns about him. I see something like Charles Manson in him although softened in the sense that he seems to have an outlet which is probably good. I see him as often needing to be the center of attention in a dominating way. It seems lacking in the interpersonal dept. perhaps it’s the forced extroversion that explains it however. That is what I hope because then perhaps away from the public eye he is more centered. Perhaps this is just persona.
Lunar,
You are far kinder than I am. I think this goes far beyond persona. That space guzzling thing and verbal and physical domination is a sign of something deeply and scarily unhealthy in my opinion on just a pure observation level. On a personal level he gives me the heeby jeebies due to bad experiences with this type of unhealthy ISFPness..
a more honest picture of brand in convo (rather than the persona vids under analysis so far):
https://youtu.be/GEc1qeD7UQc
also can’t say I see much value in speculating on a person’s mental state from this kind of distance (& bit sick at the idea of telling people to ‘stay away’ — ugh). bring me a sane man I will cure him, etc.
Ben,
That is fair, I was the one who suggested people to “stay away.” My actual words were, ” I think most folks would do well to keep him on their television screen….” I also said I could not diagnose a person I don’t know and have never met. These were my impressions and there is plenty of room for me to be wrong. You assume I am, so go with that. It is a subjective thing after all. His humor and personality can be quite enjoyable and he does have a lot of charm. There is a lot here to make me suspect something darker for people in closer interpersonal relationships with someone who displays some of the traits I’ve observed in this man, but I am not trying to tell you what to believe. I shared my perspective and I’m perfectly fine with being wrong. As I said before, I hope I am. He has a lot that is pretty golden about him too. We all get ugh alerts. I gave you one, so Brand gives me one.
It’s a common thing that people do not recognize health when they see it. They prefer to criticize it and neglect the value of said person, probably this give them some sense of superiority while promising that they themselves can simply ignore spiritual attainments. You’d do well to remember that it’s on their good will. Even a guy like Jesus has been known to get so angry he’d drag and throw people outside, giving them a thorough trashing while at it I bet. In a world like this, everyone is superior or inferior to another, and finding your place in this arrangement is one of the greatest treasures there is, if not the greatest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egRO9WjrBOQ
If I had just seen this video, I wouldn’t even be able to imagine isfp.
Well, don’t use your imagination. Imagination is one of the things that gets in the way of seeing THE TYPE. No imagination required.
His expression of ni is kind of absurd- I don’t mean necessarily negatively because there’s some kind of attraction about it, but as a ni dominant it just seems perverse? Ni without being put to use by Fe or te just seems like wasted energy.
Is this what it looks like when an infj gets in a ti loop? Yikes
I cannot speak for others, but the only times I’ve been like this man are when I was: drunk, in extraordinary amounts of grief, or have picked up the overblown contagion and trauma of the two ISFPs who were quite like him. I can count only 2 times in my life where I’ve shown such aspects. One was quite recent and all three aspects were involved. 🙁 Otherwise, I don’t think Ni dominants look much like this. Honestly, most ISFPs look nothing like this on any regular basis.
Ni-Ti is more like reductionist, critical, and obsessive nitpicking through and pursuit of the data (Ti) in order to support and verify the insight of Ni without the awareness or use of the action function of Fe, which moderates and makes these other functions useful and somewhat manageable.
Brilliant! The tertiary is the teenager among the functions, isn’t it?
I always did recognize a familiarity about Russell. He has similar looks to me, of sorts, similar forehead and lanky build.
ISFP? That’s good. Can’t have too many of them. He’s a lot more talkative though and I’d prefer to be quiet because anything else, even dying to speak about these amazing things, is gonna get you killed.
Someone else called Russell an enlightened celebrity. It made me laugh but who knows, a minute into the video and it’s clear he’s quite the intelligent character. Maybe not enlightened, but maybe more advanced than I had thought.
I enjoyed this! I love to hear a spirited talker and see how people react to it.
He’s got a blazing fast mind! So do I and suffer some minor speech impairments at times for speaking too quickly. I used to be self-conscious about it, and so withdrew further.
Ok. To me its’ pretty clear. ENFP.
Why?
1. Russell Brand is renowned for having problems with Si (stability/stableness/consistency) ENFP has Si in inferior position.
2. Has had problems with being amped up on Ne so much that he has lost track of Si balancing…this has caused him to be overly focussed on spiritual matters/concepts/ideas (Ne)
3. His focus on talking about Si (5 senses) a lot has to do with the destruction that an unhealthy Ne dominance has had in his life. Si gives you a focus on health and looking after your body. Russel has had a lot of issues with drug addiction and not taking care of himself.
Ne needs validation in the world because of its’ extraverted nature (like all extraverted fucntions). Russell has lived off Ne validation via crowds of admirers and people affirming its’ cleverness for a long time. This comes at the expense of Si (slowing down/making self feel comfortable..at ease)
4. Russel plays with Si people like they are a toy. He uses Si to destabilsie them in conversation and then throw NE ideas at them.
5. He’s clearly EFP, because he uses Fi and wields it like a sword (not as a dominant function. Fi could not say half the stuff he says if it was in the dominant role)
6. Clearly his focus of attention is, for the vast majority of the time, outside himself. This is the key to understanding that he is a dominant extravert. He is constantly responding to stimuli outside himself and then throwing Fi wisdom at that object.
7. Russels insistent and passionate expressions of what he believes in are expressions of Fi. clearly (as a dominant Fi user myself) I can be like this when I feel I have found truth and purpose that I believe will heal relationships wih people. Fi also focusses on internalness…turns focus to inside ourselves as being the solution to our problems… he espouses that Vices such as Greed, Pride, Lust are what causes the worlds problems. Fi alsone does this.
8. In interviews he clearly is 5 steps ahead of anyone else… this is Ne. Not Ni. Ne is alert to the moment and jumps from one thing to another at speed…making huge assumptions and then backtracking or sidetracking and coming back around. He uses your reaction to then make more intuitive assumptions and control the space. This is how he treated that News Reporter. He used Ne (detecting her inner motivations with aux Fi) and realised she had made a negative (distancing) judgement about him. HE uses Ne to find a quick and novel response in the moment.
9. Russel has suffered from bulimia and self-harming…all traits of someone feeling detached from Body (Se/Si).
10. Russell is clearly a type 7 in Enneagram temrs (like a huge number of comedians)..probably and 7 wing 6. Type sevens have problems with gluttony (mental/conceptual/physical). What we are seeing in these videos is actually ‘mental gluttony’… an attachment to ideas. These ideas he has collected about spirituality and capitalism etc are these attachments.
11. The focus of his Te learnings has been focussed on what is important to his aux Fi. Fi is focussed on spirituality / individualism and purpose. Thus his Te is limited to topics tht he has found personal interest in.
12. Being forced into being a part of the Fe world of talkshows and promotonal circuits has caused hsi Fi to react in a strong way against it. Im assuming that always having to be PC wherever he goes has been taxing…and his recent focu on expressing personal insights and values has been a reaction against that…thus it comes across strongly.
13. Tertiary Te types often want to be know as experts or appear to have some personal authority on matters. He is trying to express his Te insights to thw world via Ne (fun, novelty)…which is really the only way he interfaces with the world.
14. Being and Enneagram 7 means that underneath he fears being useless/incompetent. Thus he is overcompensating for this by tryiing to appear knowledgeable.
15. Enneagram 7’s have lost their sense of healthy detachment from the world…they cling to things/idea/loved ones in an unhealthy fashion…this is evident in ENFP’s having Si in the Inferior role (they feel detached from the real world/people)….thus they either cling too heavily to things …or they appear completely detached…but they cant find the middle ground. Russell is either TOO intimate and personal..or TOO rational and detached. Aux Fi and Tertiary Te.
and I could go on….
late reply. but I had to get it out!
C, After the consensus here was that RB is an introvert, I gave up the MBTI forever because it made no sense any longer. It will be interesting to see the response to your post.
This guy is not an ENFP for the simple reason that he’s clearly using some form of Ni, so he cannot be an Ne-Si user.. he is also clearly not an Ni-Se user so must be Se-Ni.. an unhinged ESFP could still be plausible, but not ENFP..
I still don’t get why he >must< be an Ni user, just cause he's going on about spiritual stuff? That doesn't mean anything necessarily. I'd definitely still say he's an ESFP over ISFP if he has to be an SP type.
Im sorry, but I can’t see how anyone gets Ni from watching stuff like this…
One of the best examples of dominant Ne ive seen..very quick witted. creative. outside the box.Future oriented. In the moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUDzBdh3LXo
Not sure how anyone is getting anything else from him.
Olivia + Piggie
Agreed! ESFP is more likely… and would at least explain the Saviour complex with Ni in the Inferior.
But the inferior is more likely to be projected on others and reacted against than claimed for themselves imo..
He’d have to be fairly screwd up in the head for that to happen and it would typically come out negative… and he seems to be treating it pretty lightly… and sees the irony in it himself.
Why it must be Ni.. hmm.. I dunno.. it’s ze conviction.. never in my life have a seen an Ne user speak with conviction about their observations.. they speak with conviction about the conclusions they have drawn from their observations.. what you’ll hear from an ENFP or ENTP is going to be thinking or feeling conviction not Ne conviction.. Ne is just random detached floating around.. ya see.. it’s the introverted function which is going to make personal sense out of something.. this guy has Fi+Ni conviction.. this is what Blake was talking about when he explained the meaning of intensity in this context..
And the video.. I agree he’s quick witted but so are ISFPs.. Ne humor is more quirky and less concrete.. with a feeling function it becomes kinda goofy.. this was more like Se Fi humor I’ve seen in my ISFP friend.. he’ll take in whatever is being thrown at him and own something personal in a very witty way.. it’s not goofy.. more of a bite to it.. lunar used the right word.. sassy.. that’s what I see in brand.. and he enjoys making people feel uncomfortable.. my ISFP friend claims to get a kick out of doing that too.. so I dunno.. I’m not saying he can’t be extraverted.. but he’s surely an SFP.. too many edges.. not round enough to be NFP in my opinion..
Piggie,
I agree with that about N humour being less edgy/sharp/harsh… whereas S types are trying to find how far they can push/nudge you…to know where they stand boundaries wise.
They get a rise out of pushing your boundaries a bit.
There is a definite softer humour with Ne-Fi/Fi-Ne and Ne humour is aimed at revealing hidden patterns in the context…so theyre less interested in directing factual observations and more interested in you getting the meaning underneath…or ‘putting two and two together” for yourself. Less direct.
He does talk a lot about actual tangible experiences .. things he has seen/witnessed from a Feeling perspective.
hmmm….def got me thinking. Thanks for your insights! I will continue to ponder.
—
I have another angle on this that could help illuminate…but I need to sidestep into talking Enneagram. Im not sure if Enneagram is respected here… but Ill throw it into the mix.
I think it can define aspects of Russells “intensity” in another way.
Enneagram theory breaks down peoples motivations in life into SEXUAL INSTINCT, SOCIAL INSTINCT and SELF-PRESERVATION INSTINCT.
We tend to prioritise one of these (dominant), use one (secondary) as a ‘utility’ to meet the priorities of the first one, and the last one is ignored or just outside of awareness (like inferior / called blind spot in enneagram)
Russell is clearly a SX/SO/SP type.. (SEXUAL as dominant and SOCIAL as secondary in the ‘stack’ and blind to SELF PRES)
HE uses the SOCIAL DOMAIN to assert his SEXUAL (Fi if you will) DOMINANCE.
quote:
“SX/SO Description
(Life) Motivation: To impact others, question assumptions, challenge convention.
This is the type that exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy. They may identify so strongly with whatever they’re involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it’s purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They enjoy pushing other’s buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression. It’s not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they’re able to support with heartfelt conviction. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it. While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability. Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this subvariant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.
Energy: intense energy expressed outwards, assertively
Mindset: “If I can maintain position and inclusion in the group/world, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity.”
Blind spot: Likely to neglect their desire to build their sense of personal value, accomplishment, and security of place with others for the sake of their primary concern of seeking intense connections and experiences, in average-healthy levels. May not have an awareness of the body’s need for food or sleep, or of the need to accumulate wealth for reasons of security, or of the need to manage time or resources to establish an orderly lifestyle.
Examples of sx/so: Madonna, John Lennon, Yukio Mishima, Robin Williams, Drew Barrymore, Richard Simmons, Elvis, Bono, George Michael, Sinead O’Connor, Joan of Arc.”
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/118168-resource-thread-instinctual-variants-stackings.html
Note: TO IMPACT OTHERS, QUESTION ASSUMPTIONS, CHALLENGE CONVENTION
Doesnt this sound like RUSSELL BRAND? Wanting to “start a revolution”?
Im an SX/SO myself, so I know what that stacking feels like.
If you read the descriptions of the SEXUAL instinct (from the link above) you can see that it manifests in any person… as an ADDICTION TO INTENSITY…a COMPETITIVE/ALPHA instinct..much in the way that two Lions may fight to be the leader of the Pride and therefore get the prized Lady friend to mate with. ITs a “salmon swimming upstream to mate” kind of instinct. All or nothing. If I dont get to plant my seed…then Ill die and float down stream to die or die on the battle field. Its primal survival stuff coming from an insecurity in that area. Thus it expends ALL its energy to succeed as if its’ life depended on it. Theres no self preservation there. The instinct is not only applied to mating, but any ‘projects’ or ‘personal interests’ they have…they approach it with the same intensity.
This can be found throughout everything Russell says…he has been entranced by the distortion of his own SEXUAL instinct and the other instincts have gone my the wayside. SOCIAL and SELF PRESERVATION are left out of conscious awareness.
This is the narrowing of consciousness that he speaks about that happened in his earlier life.
If you’re still interested after reading all that, you can following up the ideas im putting forward here..
this is a description to the SEXUAL SEVEN Enneagram type from Beatrice Chestnut (best descriptions I’ve ever read)..
http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-forum-enthusiast/579906-seven-subtypes-acccording-beatrice-chestnut.html
Even if you arent into Enneagram…you have to admit that that description pretty much nails RUSSELLS type.
heres another description..for SEXUAL/SOCIAL Type Seven.
“This subtype has a lot of energy, crazy, intense energy and this energy is going to find a way to manifest. This subtype of Seven can have the biggest extremes in behavior and with material success in life. With the self-pres instinct last in the stacking they aren’t afraid of taking risks, so they sometimes become very successful, as in the case of rock stars, but they typically also take too many risks, look for too many easy ways out. With the self-pres least developed, they can become dependent on others to add a much needed stabilizing element to their busy hedonistic lives. They have many of the same issues and share many of the same problems as the other sexual first subtype with regards to relationship addiction and have even more dependency issues then the sexual/self-pres. They can lose focus and drift similar to the social/sexual subtype and their high energy can likewise be draining for others.
With this subtype, you have drama mixed with mental energy. What separates them from Fours who they might resemble superficially is their planning and future orientation. Their drama and intensity is focused on what they are going to do, not on what has happened. They are usually blind to their past, moving forward and not looking back.”
again…nails RUSSELL to a T …imo.
…..
so the reason I still have ENFP in my back pocket is that in Enneagram terms, those who are driven by the sexual instinct tend to be more IDEALISTIC/IDEALISTS…and those who use SELF PRESERVATION tend to be more REALISTS/REALISTIC. its not clear cut…but when is this theory stuff ever!?
The IDEALISTS of MBTI are the NF’s
who focus on Transforming PEOPLE as INDIVIDUALS and whole SOCIETIES.
http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/idealist_overview.asp
vs..
http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/artisan_overview.asp
thus its easy to think ENFP for me…but im still open minded.
Would love to hear your…or anyone elses thoughts.
My brother is a definite ISFP and he “rhymes” with Brand in a much less manic presentation. Very similar Ni and Te. He has a superficial extroverted charm that he can use to great effect (he’s a performer), with a quick-witted verbal dexterity, but it’s definitely something he “switches on,” whether on stage or socially. It doesn’t convey ease in normal person-to-person interactions. In his natural private state his words are slow and inward unless he’s emotionally defensive. On the rare occasion he gets drunk, he tends to do a version of Brand’s happy nose-tweaking Puck amok act.
Hey Stuart! You and Stewart both have an ISFP brother.. the coincidences! 😀
C,
That’s some super interesting information you’ve got there! Yes I think your theory of Brand being sx-so-sp makes a lot of sense.. definitely explains a lot of his outward behavior and drive..
But ENFP.. something just doesn’t sit right.. it’s the lack of Ne.. wouldn’t we see and hear Ne if he were ENFP.. hmm.. I still see too much Ni Se (Si id) from him to say ENFP.. since you’re suggesting type 7 for him and 7 is primarily an extraverted perceiving type, that leaves us with EXXP.. but.. I’m just wondering.. would a 6w7 sx-so-sp also behave similarly? There would be an even higher tendency for addiction in them since they need to rely on something external? And there’s a certain Brand type whininess in unhealthy type 6 that I can’t imagine in a type 7.. ISFP seems like a 6w7 type.. lol.. I’m not sure.. what do you think? but this is great stuff 😀
@Stuart
Wait.. was that you who spoke about your brother having a deep interest in the crafts and you guys visiting a crafts museum during a family trip? And I happened to file that memory under Stewart? 😛
C,
The information you shared was very helpful about E7 SX/so/sp subtypes. The motivations seem right on as far as I can tell. ENFP does not seem right because of his space invasion tendencies and poking at people for attention in the way he does though. The aim in RB’s case seems simply to be stimulation and acknowledgement. It isn’t about the ideas or even his feelings so much as the need achievement of personal stimulation and acknowledgement by any means available. I would consider ESFP with ADHD/addictive/ and borderline tendencies. Kind of Marilyn Monroe on crack-ish. He is a force of nature! Blake suggests that his rapid fire spewing of the truth is Ni tertiary. Who the heck can say for sure? The enneagram subtypes seem really spot on about motivation though.
Here is a video with the gorgeous Emily Blunt (I wonder about her type as she is a favorite of mine). If you all don’t care to see another video of him, one of the comments below the video states that RB acknowledges discomfort when he is not the center of attention, which is pretty obvious but shows evidence of his self awareness. He is exhausting and off putting but kind of lovely too. I root for his well being, while hoping for strong fortitudes for those who are genuinely close to him. 🙂 A fabulous disaster is this man, at least as I see him.
https://youtu.be/Pnx-N7lsgrY
@Piggie
No, that was the Kiwi Stewart! *My* ISFP brother’s allergic to museums, so there. Totally different. 😛
Piggie,
I credited Stewart with Stuart’s Shakespeare quote on another comment thread. I will try harder in the future. We art to boogie with Stu after we art full of Stew. I am trying to remember an easy way to differentiate. Supposedly mneumonic devices help, but evidently I suck at creating them. 🙂 Anyone have a good one? Do they ever help any of you?
It is probably easier to take note of their spelling. It just gets confusing when they are writing back and forth together. Nice names though.
Stewart is the original English spelling of course, Stuart being the medieval French transliteration that got adopted by the Scots. I was once delighted to hear a Parisian girl attempt my name and come out with the original Anglo-Saxon, phonetically perfect. (Sort of like Stiyye-waart.)
The other fellow figured out how to add an avatar, so I guess that helps.
Rita,
Ooo I liked the Emily Blunt lady.. I love her accent and she’s got a nice sense of humor.. it’s the first time I’ve seen anything of hers.. she seems STPish?
And that’s a lovely mnemonic.. I think I’m gonna have ‘I don’t want no tutti frutti, no lollipop, come on baby just rock rock rock’ playing in my head when I see Stuart 😀
I suck at remembering the mnemonics themselves.. the only ones I have managed to remember since childhood are ‘I before E, except after C’ and ‘Every good boy does fine’.. I don’t think they even count 😛
Stuart,
I’m curious about the ISFP-INFJ dynamic.. Socionics claims that ISFPs are the benefactors and INFJs are the beneficiaries in an ISFP-INFJ relation.. is that what your experience has been? I have an ISFP friend, but we don’t hang out much so I haven’t really been able to observe what our interaction is like..
I’m not sure I understand the socionics relations or how they map over… My brother’s a couple of years younger. Broad strokes, I’ve observed that he needs my attention and I don’t need his. I get enchanted by his Se (music) productions, they feel light and expert and lodge in my brain (or thrill me live). I have felt compelled to help him be more himself– this has often taken the form of giving (requested) advice or helping think through the structure of an emotional issue, particularly social ones; also quasi-logistical things to do with his career. Or me listening to a great deal of Ni-Te talk. It nearly always feels like there’s a ludic quality to these exchanges which I buy into to a lesser or greater extent, like I’m giving advice or painting a question to its corners, and it is the text, not the subtext, but at the same time the text isn’t really why we’re doing it. I guess that’s the occluded Fi reaching backwards for expression.
There’s a neat dynamic where it’s as though I can upload to his Ni. Like I can gather some Ni stuff and shoot it his way, and he’ll spin something personal and artistic out of it, make it concrete, which on my worse days (most of them) I would never think or deign to do. He really likes including me in his projects and feeling like he’s giving me opportunities to be expressive.
Occasionally he’ll say something maddening like “that’s where I disagree with math” and I have to very quickly find a creative way to derail my emotional response.
I have an ISFP friend (really my partner’s friend) who I get along with quite well but who I feel would similarly tax me if I were who she relied on for emotional support. Our interests don’t intersect much but that doesn’t seem a problem, I think there’s a kind of unspoken emotional comfort. She has a very clear– I don’t have the vocab– energy body? One I can sense directly, which doesn’t happen much.
Stuart,
I’m not very well versed in the concepts of socionics either.. i got intrigued by Blake’s mother-of relationships.. this was the link I read about socionics benefit relationships :
http://www.socionics.com/rel/bn.htm
The small p and j assignments would get flipped everywhere to get the MBTI equivalents..
And your relationship with your brother sounds collaborative and elder brotherly.. different from the picture that link painted for me.. but then sibling relationships are bound to be governed by additional/other rules? what does Ni-Te talk entail?
With my ISFP friend I feel like a cheerleader most of the time.. I love his Se skills too.. i do this thing with him where I record some really silly random notes on a guitar or ukulele and send them across to him.. and he uses them as inspiration to turn out the most gorgeous tunes and sends them back to me.. he’s not very wordy.. but he gets what I say, even if he’s not always interested in what I’m talking about.. the only thing which kinda grates on my nerves is the Si driven motivation behind many choices.. I wonder what ISFPs find annoying about INFJs (Fe-Ti?)..
Annoying? Moi? As you say, it’s complicated by the sibling thing, but in our particular case he gets annoyed by my caution, my passive aggression, my unconcern about the costs of getting along, my tolerance for hierarchy, my lightly held opinions (which he also values, whether he knows it or not), my drive for correctness. So basically Fe-Ti, yeah. I think if he met me for the first time he’d write me off as promiscuous and unaccountable (by personality). My feelings probably seem unmotivated to him some of the time (like I find Ni id confusing), and conversely I have a hard time taking Si seriously except in the dominant position.
By Ni-Te talk I mean, as a pale reflection of its INTJ analogue, stuff like the boring planning of invisible schemes, as if in futile love with the idea that a different business structure will solve flagging sales. I.e. a new *minutely detailed* way of seeing the same three pieces, different from yesterday’s and to be replaced tomorrow, will make them equal five or twelve. It never comes to anything unless directly realised in Se (like a “new way of singing,” a “new way of pitching,” etc… there have been a lot of those). I guess that might be Ne superego too.
Cheerleader sounds right, too.
Thanks for explaining about the socionics relations, I was having a hard time making them square.
Found this numerological analysis of my first name here:
http://www.first-names-meanings.com/names/name-STEWART.html
I’ll let it speak for itself, but it does sound freakily like an INFJ description:
“Meaning of name: Stewart
Etymology : From a surname which was a variant STUART.
Origin : English
Who is he?
Such a charming and endearing personality, Stewart , is tactful, sensitive, emotional and intuitive! He is both extremely shy and tender hearted, and is inclined to forget his own ego for the benefit of others. He is endowed with an active imagination, and his daydreams are in coherence with his master number 11, leaning towards altruism, innovation and utopia. Mother Theresa could seem a little self-centred in comparison! However, between fantasy and reality there is a gap that Stewart isn´t always capable of crossing, and so he will often live at the vibration of the number 2, a lower octave. This could make him passive, nonchalant or even lazy, cooperative as always, but relatively dependent on others. Faced with the harsh realities of life, he may be tempted to take refuge in a “fool´s paradise” such as drugs or alcohol…
Such an unselfish soul is a rare and precious thing: he is likely to be valued by others for his helpfulness, generosity and his understanding of the meaning of true friendship. As a child, he is fragile and needs to be showered with love and affection, as well as stimulation and encouragement. His school reports are likely to be peppered with remarks such as “he has his head in the clouds”, and “a daydreamer”…
So it would be a good idea to help him to keep his feet on the ground as well. His emotional and sensorial powers would be less abstract if he chooses to direct them into a hobby that he is passionate about, such as a musical instrument. On the same note, taking part in a group activity would equally be very beneficial to his development, going some way towards satisfying his aspirations with regards to friendship and solidarity, and he would give the very best of himself.
Away from the warmth and protection of the group, he is like a fish out of water… coincidentally enough his astrological sign is very often Pisces; with Neptune is his ruling planet.
What does he like?
He likes people, friends, strangers and everyone in between; although he remains paradoxically very shy. Peace and quiet is essential to him and he is willing to go to great lengths to achieve it, using diplomacy and grace. Nevertheless, if the 11 is expressed (life Path Number, day of birth or if he was born under the sign of Aquarius), he could reveal himself to be passionate (social), impatient, brutal and even fanatic, with the desire to crush anything that gets in the way of his ardour. Romantically, he´s a knight in shining armour who understands the language of nature, as well as that of a woman´s soul, so similar to his own. He seeks synergy in a relationship: unity and paternity are essential values, in his eyes.
What does he do?
With 29 as his active number there could be some disruption to his emotional life as well as a tendency towards excess (strange or confusing situations), the creative aspect of this number favours success. Moreover, his ambition is to find meaning in his life, without necessarily considering the financial benefit.
Hence he could choose one of the following professions: artist, decorator, hairdresser, florist, activity leader, occupations in connection with the media…, in relation to the human being (medicine, law, justice, counselling, parapsychology, religion…), in one way or another related to travel and overseas travel, and anything that will allow him to make the most of his innovative mind…”
Stewart,
You just answered Shakespeare’s question: what’s in a name? A Stewart by any other name wouldn’t smell so sage. 🙂
The part about overseas travel sounded quite like you. It is a great name.
Now I’m wondering if I missed out on my true calling in life as a hairdresser……
My name was originally supposed to be Stuart, after some movie actor or other that my film buff father liked. But my ditzy ESFP mum got it wrong when she officially registered my name!
I kind of see the sassy thing that I see some isfps have. Kind of like between sassy and relaxed (alternatingly). Then for whatever reason he is also really hyper and into discussing ideas. I never would have guessed isfp which is why I loved this challenge.
Stuart,
Would you believe I have an ISFP brother too! Haha. He’s a lot more subdued than Russell and also a performer/musician/artist.
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Piggie,
Yeh. If he is an ISFP – it would make more sense that he was a 6w7 sx/so…. but my brain cant make that fit right now. There are just too many other flashing lights that pop up when I try to make that work.
interestingly ..there is a fair bit of Russell in the SEXUAL 6 description too..
http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/366066-sexual-sixes-according-beatrice-chestnut.html
Im definitely coming around on the Se front. I am seeing very little real philosophical/abstract thinking the more I look at him talk .. although theres a lot of “out of the box” thinking that could be more about xxxP than anything I guess.
I’m seeing that he uses ‘archetypes’ and ‘metaphorical/symbolic’ talk as a means to attain Se attention (Ni only to serve Aux/Dominant Se interests)…. and he contradicts his own point by saying that you need to focus on God/spirituality…but drawing attention to himself at the same time….as if he was a messianic figure come to earth to tell us all the truth (i AM Se!).
He sees the physical world as a place of imbued mystical symbolism (Ni seen through Se)
If it were the other way around …. Ni dominant/aux would priotritise the idea first…and only use sensory information to further those ideas. This isnt what he’s doing. clearly
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Rita,
Yes. I agree that if he’s a 7 sx/so then ESFP makes the most sense. It seems like the best explanation for the ‘hero/saviour’ complex…and the attention seeking front to the world.
Have a look at this very Se statment …(and sx/so)
https://youtu.be/gL7JRj3ZBJE?t=50m50s
WARNING CRUDE/LUDE/SEXUAL CONTENT
Couldnt be said any better as a statement describing how Se tries to find a ‘state of grace’ merging of the senses with the physical environment…the earth. the universe.
Also… on Blakes good thoughts on Ni spewing truth. I wonder if the SEXUAL INSTINCT in Russells type creates a ‘metaphorical’ sexual encounter wherever he goes. As an Fi dominant with SX/SO subtype, I tend to be much more expressive of my Fi feelings than a lot of Fi types I meet. ..I notice that I have to reign myself in a lot as my natural compulsion is to divulge self. With low SELF PRESERVATION…if find it hard to not ‘pour myself out’ in conversation.
This could explain why Russell spews out Ni perceptions (and Fi content) more readily than many others…SX/SO energy wants to ‘plant its’ seed’ into something of worth and originate something beautiful out in the universe (a big bang if you will).
– On the yt clip you linked to –
It seems he’s trying to assert his dominance over the female guests… in order to ‘reveal to the herd’ that he is the dominant alpha male…and worthy of the prizes that go with it….but the reality is, SX domain is actually born out of the core fears of the type. So an SX 9 or 3 or 6 would fear rejection from intimates…more than in the arena of SO.
So in a way, you could explain Russells focus on SOCIAL ARENA to expres the PHYSICAL NATURE of his SEXUAL ENCOUNTERS could be to allay his fears of any REAL / ACTUAL spiritual/emotional union and the vulnerability of giving himself over to the power of someone who can see into the real him they see in private.
C,
Exactly my thoughts on his Ni being subservient to Se..
And I found your explanation of how sx/so can make even Fi types feel the need to be expressive very interesting.. lol.. I can actually sense your intensity in the way you type your comments.. 😛 I had never paid much attention to the enneagram before this.. but it looks like there’s a lot to be learnt there too..
Haha. Yeh I can get pretty intense! haha… hows the weather where you are? lol
The Enneagram helps fill in gaps that MBTI doesn’t explain. For me, MBTI is good at pinpointing manifestations of behaviour….whereas Enneagram is much better at giving the ‘big picture’. the Why…motivations of a person to utilise their cognitive functions.
I think if you take the core of Enneagram theory back to its’ origins and then go back to Jungs mystical origins….theres a lot of common ground….it seems that modern psychology and the need to ground such esoteric insights into a model that is more widely palatable has created a sort of stiffness and immovable quality that I see people trying to break free from.
Like Blake is trying to do when explaing more complex understandings of type behaviour.. In some ways, these typing systems are trying to define very complex, yet infinitely simpler phenomena that is hard to explain. Like theres a fascinating mystery there that will never be explained through the prism of our own limited cognitive processes… or an systematised model.
“it seems that modern psychology and the need to ground such esoteric insights into a model that is more widely palatable has created a sort of stiffness and immovable quality”
Absolutely agree! This is, to a large extent, what prevents me from taking up psychology ‘professionally’ in these modern times.. there’s a lot that can be understood or done to help ourselves and others as long as we aren’t trying so darn hard to pretend like we aren’t dealing with human beings.. i can’t imagine talking to and writing about people like they are interchangeable objects (although I can understand why this is required).. sigh..
Oh yes.. everyone seems to be glimpsing bits and pieces of the same core from different perspectives.. and through perspective this core has made itself unknowable.. thank god for the unsolvable mysteries.. how dreadfully boring life would be if it were all known.. 😛
If a type might be revealed by its tertiary does it mean that it’s harder to type well balanced or idk harmonious person? (or person with good usage of auxiliary)