Now, I have recommended for INFJs to use the Fe auxiliary like a motherfucker. It is the very function + position that will save the INFJ from a hell of introversion ala the Ni-Ti loop, or the lesser known, but equally important, Ni-Fi loop.
However, pure Fe expression has its own problems. And in any case, it is not pure because all functions are in the context of Ni in the INFJ makeup.
So, I want to introduce you to a concept known as maintaining Te minimums.
Fe and Te constitute the category known as extraverted judging functions. Fe is the auxiliary function of INFJ. The auxiliary function is where a type has the maximum ability to use something. INFJs have the maximum ability to use Fe to formalize their Ni intuitions in feeling values that everyone can understand. One of the spheres where Fe values most predominate are in the arts. So, an INFJ has one of the greatest potentials of all types to express their Ni visions and insights via artistic activities – writing, painting, musical composition, dancing, gum-chewing etc.
Te, on the other hand, most predominates in business and industrial activities. It is not concerned with the expression of human sentiments. In business activities, the expression of feelings is usually kept to a minimum. Business is concerned with getting stuff done. Order, efficiency, deadlines, schedules, allocating, delegating, expediting, filing, faxing, and fucking over. Functionalism.
You could say that Fe is form, while, Te is function. Form follows function and function follows form.
INFJs generally loathe pure Te-type activities. And in general, they would do well to stay away from the business, industrial, and corporate worlds as much as possible.
However, once an INFJ is on firm footing in establishing Fe flow in their life, they should come back round to that Te world in this new Fe context. Context is the key. Because if Te were the context that an INFJ had primarily established themselves in, they would be some of the most miserable creatures in the industrialized world. But, if they have learned to make Fe the context, they then need to use Te within it. And remember, if you are an INFJ, everything is ultimately in the context of your dominant Ni function.
But, INFJs do not use Ni, rather, they are oriented by it. They use Fe. And within this context of Fe usage, the INFJ needs to maintain Te minimums.
Anyway, let’s say that you’re an INFJ that has discovered the power of Fe use for your type. Maybe you will get a book called The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron that has just the very thing a blocked INFJ needs – Morning Pages.
Analogy
Morning Pages is all about using Fe in an Ni context.
The author of this book has a simple requirement for unblocking yourself:
- Every day, first thing in the morning, get up and write three pages of stream-of-consciousness writing.
That’s it.
This activity is the very thing that will unblock an INFJ locked in the Ni-Ti loop of endless consideration and forestalling in action.
But, INFJ often needs to take an action to get out of their crisis of inaction and to not use thinking to solve the problem. That is the problem. In large part.
So, these Morning Pages are an Fe activity. You just write whatever comes to you, without stopping or censoring yourself, or worse, not doing it at all because of x, y, z and other letters of the alphabet that an INFJ will invent just for the occasion of explaining why they cannot do such a simple activity.
So, you just do it. Action. And if the INFJ wants to they can spend the time during Morning Pages writing 3 pages of why they feel this exercise won’t work. Or they can write that they are not in the mood to write. Or that they have nothing to say. That’s fine. Just write “I have nothing to say” for three pages.
Pure Fe. Just express in words whatever the fuck you want.
Now, here is where this Te minimum thingie comes in
If you will notice in the above statement for the simple requirement of doing Morning pages there are some directives. Those would be the Te things. Yes, like directions for doing something. And it has been kept to the bare minimum in the Morning Pages instructions such that we don’t even really notice it so much.
But, yes, we have the instruction to do these Morning Pages every day. That is a frequency measurement. How often will I be doing said activity?
Then we have the instruction to do this activity first thing in the morning. That’s a sequencing instruction. We don’t do it in the middle of the day or right before bed. We do these pages first thing in the morning. OK, not too bad so far. Fine.
Finally, we have the instruction to write three pages of this stream-of-consciousness writing. How much of this writing are we to do? Not two, not four, but three pages. This is a quantity measurement.
These three things – frequency, sequence, quantity – are all exclusively Te things.
Once all those criteria have been met we have carte blanche to do whatever we want within the scope of this activity. You could write that your mother is an angry cat who licks up your daddy’s irresponsibly spilled milk at every lapping occasion she gets. It doesn’t have to make sense or be linear. You just have to show up first thing every day and do your Fe thing for three pages.
With Te minimums in place.
Do you see why it is important to have some bare guidelines for this Fe freeform expression? Fe and Ni by themselves are like spiders on acid. They can create the craziest most far out things but there is no uniformity, consistency, and pattern to it. No template. Each time Fe sets out to create it will come up with something different. And this is a very great gift if used in the proper context. Such as being an artist, creative writer, etc.
It ain’t great if you are in accounting or brain surgery.
Those professions call for heavy use of Te, which means doing the same thing the same way every time. We are not going to be getting creative in accounting.
An INFJ should be looking for Te minimum and Fe maximum. That is really the balance that an INFJ needs to strike in action. We don’t need to bring up Ni because all these functions are in the context of Ni. When an INFJ uses either Fe or Te (or anything else) it will implicitly be in the context of Ni.
This means that the INFJ Fe expression will tend to be very free-form and crazy. As a matter of fact, the term “stream-of-conscious” pretty much nails Fe in an Ni context.
So, INFJs will be happiest in their lives when they stay as close to this context as possible when picking careers, relationships, living setups and so on. INFJs are basically bohemians in spirit.
But, if an INFJ doesn’t just want to be a dilettante who dabbles about in artistic mediums but actually wants to create something that can endure, they will have to learn how to rein themselves in.
To take the most natural expression of INFJ, let’s pick the medium of written expression. INFJs tend to make the best writers around, especially in creative writing of some sort.
But, if they just write when they feel like it, when they feel inspired, they ain’t likely to produce that much output. Hell, they may never produce anything at all because they have such high standards for expression. This is where their Te superego is running more towards a maximum. It begins to take over Fe, the latter of which, in its pure form, is just about unedited and unchecked flowing expression.
So, it is important that the Te is not too much either. That will choke an INFJ in another way of over-perfectionism and adhering to external standards too much within their medium of expression.
There is also the concept of gateway Te – having some bare minimum Te in place before the INFJ gets started out of the gate, so to speak. An INFJ will often set about to doing something but block because they don’t have any idea where they are going. They don’t know when to stop, what the right amount was to put in their creative expression. They will come to a standstill once again, now this time from an extraverted function (Te superego), rather than an introverted one such as Ti (tertiary temptation).
The INFJ will start to look at what they are doing from an outside objective viewpoint and lose the impetus of what they were expressing, which often has its source in highly subjective foundations.
So, don’t get too carried away with the Te. But, you gotta have the bare minimums or else you will give up in the futility of being lost in a sea of confusion. That’s the Fe expression in its purity. A sea of eddies, currents, swells, drifts, bubblings, swoons, storms etc. All highly unpredictable.
A little Te goes a long way for an INFJ on their sea of unpredictability and in the exploitation of their innate gifts of emotional expression.
Metaphorically, an INFJ has to sojourn via the sea. Therein lies their happiness and bright destiny.
If they dam up the sea and hold it within, they will be unhappy. The sea will turn into a putrid bog (which they will be sunk to the bottom of).
But only a fool would set out onto the sea without some idea of where they were going, how long they would be going for, what to do in case of x, y, and z scenarios, and with the basic vessel and tools necessary to traverse the unpredictable currents.
But, INFJs shouldn’t make it too complicated. I advise INFJs to have the bare minimum of these things and that is all.
Otherwise, they are in danger of overthinking it before they even set out of the gate. They choke themselves with over-preparation. Over-provisioning. INFJ can make Te into a thing-in-itself just like they do with Ti. Actually, that would be their Ti making Te into a thing-in-itself 🙂
Also, knowing when to stop is important too. An INFJ may go to the other extreme of opening up the floodgates and go on and on and on. They don’t know when the journey is at an end. From the Morning Pages example above, the journey is over after 3 pages. It’s important to have a quantity measurement of how much of what is going to get done.
Basically, an INFJ needs Te for starting and stopping. They will say “I will start at this time and I will end at this time. In between I will do this much of it. I will do it again on Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday.” Rinse. Repeat.
Even though I highly advocate Fe for INFJ it is not an excuse to do whatever they want whenever they feel like it.
With a little Te it is possible to make the most of Fe. In reality, these two functions work in tandem. These are the two functions of extraverted judgment. One implies the other similar to how positive space implies negative space in a picture. They rely on each other for their mutual intelligibility. Darkness is not intelligible without the concept of light and vice-versa.
For example, if you had a painting that was pure white, there would be no painting at all. But, if you had a painting that had a dot of black paint placed somewhere on the white background, you now have a painting. A highly minimal painting no doubt, but a painting nonetheless. Now there is intelligibility of both the white and the black, whereas, with the white painting there was intelligibility of neither. The black dot adds the barest contrast to make us aware that there is anything there at all.
Well, I hope you get the picture (heh).
There is no Fe without some Te, even if the latter’s presence is reduced to almost nil.
How should an INFJ assess what the bare minimum of Te necessary in any given instance is?
Ironically enough, they have to use their feeling to determine that.
More next time.
Featured Photo Credit: Ken Teegardin
If you are an INFJ who wants to get some Te minimums into your life I offer consulting services.
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Creepy. CREEPY!!!! I was feeling down today and my bff asked me if I was writing so then I went to the grocery store and got more yellow notepads and wrote. And a few hours later I’m sitting here in the dark thinking about Chipotle and then I think, God maybe I should try that The Artist’s Way thingie for the thousandth time, and then I mindlessly go to stellarmaze.com and I see a new post and it’s about Te minimums and I GASP LIKE OMG HE FIDNA DISCUSS MORNING PAGES FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME IT’S A SIGN! ?!?!??!?!
Anyway I already e-mailed you that I miss you. It’s your voice or something.
-M
Yeah. This is how The Artist’s Way synchronization works )))
Blake, love it, thanks.
We learn by opposites, it is said.
You just gave us the parameters (Te) to keep rocking out in true INFJ fashion more efficiently. Thanks again, Cowboy.
Good. It’s something I got but have never managed to implement. Thanks.
Just one question: big pages, small ones, or whatever I feel like?
It’s not the size of one’s page that matters, but, how one uses it 🙂
If you read my morning pages dude! All about stagnation and beavers damning shit up and cooperating with the beaver so it works for both of us. I just looked up the word sojourn today. Holy fecking intuition batman. I am floored.
And as it happens, sometimes I was writing two pages or one, or three and a quarter… and a couple days I didn’t manage… and now I see.
See my randomness, randommess, all or nothing chaos.
You are beautiful and incredible! Thank you!
Blake, why do you hold such interest in INFJs ? At least, you write about them more so compared to other personality types. What about INFJs make you want to write about them?
The reason I hold such an interest in INFJs is because they are interesting. How do you like that circular reasoning? Boink 🙂
Or perhaps it may be that Blake is one of us, don’t ya think?
😉
Alright, in a few sentences in what way are INFJs interesting to you? Why isn’t it the same for ESFJs for example? Why not write about them like you do for INFJs blake. It’s just that it’s blatant for all to see that INFJs seem to be your favourite to delve into .?
It’s just that it’s blatant for all to see that INFJs seem to be your favourite to delve into .?
So? Have I committed some crime?
OK, you got me. I like to write about INFJs.
There I said it! I feel so much better!
Thanks.
I think it is common knowledge that INFJs are highly interesting as a type. I mean, everyone and there grandma wants to be one, right?
Why isn’t it the same for ESFJs?
Because they aren’t as interesting. Not as much stuff to say.
But, you’re right, I have written about every other SJ type except ESFJ. What the hell am I doing?
OK, here’s a riddle for you. Which famous painter seems to have painted almost exclusively the ESFJ type in his paintings?
Are we having fun yet? I can’t wait to hear the replies!
Even though it has nothing to do with this article. That’s how frivolous I am!
Kandinsky.
Nope.
Norman Rockwell.
No. Think corpulent women. With a high degree of lymphatic development.
Rubens. Ew. Just ew.
Going by the last clue, Rubens.
Yes! Rubens it is. And ESFJs like Rubens sandwiches too.
I only recently discovered this very thing in my own life, but couldn’t quite explain the magic of it. As usual, you clarify things brilliantly. My work/job is creative – I design toys – and I find that my Fe, unchecked by Te, is totally useless. Fe is truly wonderful in my day-to-day work-life, but as you’ve said, a bit of Te is absolutely necessary to keep this ship on its course. Otherwise, I’m all over the damn place: too many ideas, too many projects, too many design options. It’s distracting and sometimes totally debilitating. (And maybe it’s worse for INFJ women?) But when I make a tidy little plan for each work-day, I can direct my Fe, get my job of creating DONE. It really does feel satisfying going about life and work this way! INFJs can really get messy inside the head. And using Fe irresponsibly just leads to wanting to do ALL the things. And that, of course, is crippling in its scope. But with a touch of Te guidance, as you’ve said, we can override our tendency towards perfection, and give some much-needed focus to the otherwise willy-nilly ramblings of our hyper-creative minds. (Incidentally, my life an artist drastically improved once I adopted the motto, “DONE is better than perfect.”) Te really is a blessing used this way. Thanks for your always brilliant insights, dear Blake.
One question: I’ve heard it said that INFJs like an orderly outer world/environment. I know that I do. Things are best when they’re minimalist, clean, and organized. (That doesn’t mean we always keep things that way, but you know, we prefer it.) Is this a Te thing? Or…? In any case, the more orderly my physical environment, the more functional my Fe seems to be.
I’m exactly the same with the ‘outer order, inner calm’ thing. And like you, I’m curious about it.
Haha “done is better than perfect” will set the world free, and it IS a Te thing, most definitely, however it’s a Ni-Te thing. Go ask an ISTJ or an ESTJ if done is better than perfect and their head would surely spin off, leaving a bloody mess for you to clean up. Reason? STJs don’t differentiate done from perfect (and vis-a-vis). Reason? No Ni. There is no refining factor for them. If it’s done, isn’t it perfect? (or right, or whatever). They wash their hands, take the credit, and roll on. Now ENTJs I think have a semblance of the difference, but their Ne makes it hard for them to downshift into perfection. They just want it DONE at all costs, however they may, privately, acknowledge the end result could have been better when faced with external evidence after the fact (oh, ahhh, Hi, Napolean) Perfection implies esthetics. Esthetics is Ni. How do you know something is perfect? You just know. Ni. Just. Knows. It’s a feel for the temperature of the room. Which is why the room has better be nice, calm, minimal–organized. If you auto-pilot this, you’re dom Ni, and as Karen SO BRILLIANTLY figured out, you can use Ni as an anchor for anything you want, even a self-predicated disassociative state (SO frickin brilliant). Karen, do you really think you use this to “support my [your] circumstances rather than my [your] true nature”? It seems as though the essence of your abilities stems directly from your true nature Ni, and your primary function Fe. Why else would you be so concerned about how the less than stellar circumstances could negatively impact the rest of your family? You could have fallen apart. You didn’t. People needed you. You figured it out, and hovered 30,000 feet above your body, looking down, without eschewing the conclusion that you’d have to employ Te like the person-off-the-street, desperate hire situation that it was for you. I would say your true nature allowed you to define your circumstances, and dabbling in Te when it works for YOU is just a circumstance of your true nature. It’s so awesome that you shared your story ????
I have no idea why there are ????? at the end of my comment. What my iPhone meant to say is, “Karen it’s so awesome that you shared your story!!!” Thanks, iPhone haha 🙂
Niki, I’m fascinated by your explanation of the outer order thing. Yes, when the room doesn’t FEEL right we just can’t settle.
Do I use Te to support my circumstances or because it’s a facet of my true nature? Hmm. It was a latent skill I worked hard to master and I can’t imagine not having it at my disposal. Perhaps I found that easier than some because I grew up in a very ordered home (not a brilliant INFJ environment in many ways, but I’d observed discipline, structure and routine at close quarters ). However, given free rein I do utilise Te less frequently simply because there’s nothing about it that entrances me. Te is the boring plate of greens, the early night, the spoonful of cod-liver-oil, the sensible shoes. Te is like Herberg’s ‘hygiene factor’ – not really noticeable when you get the balance right but infuriatingly obvious when you don’t! So, I can’t be on good form without Te but the only time I gain real pleasure from it is when I’ve overindulged on Fe and Ti. Then it’s a welcome contrast.
The question Tim raised about type being affected by environment is such an interesting one, isn’t it? My 20 year old daughter is an ENTP but far from having the famous ENTP wanderlust, she’s working hard at putting down roots. I’m sure this is because life has already given her a surfeit of novel experiences, albeit often distressing ones. I suspect that with time and more stability she will at least partially revert to her type.
Oops Tom, not Tim. Apologies Tom (and to any Tim reading who’s wondering what on earth he said).
Karen, it’s almost like your Fe was less than impressed by the lack of creative INFJ brilliance in your childhood home, and possibly even disappointed by feeling like you needed a more emotionally stimulating environment than the meat-and-potatoes, sensible shoes-type household that your family fostered…but…Ni still stored everything. Dominant Ni said, “Sorry Karen’s Auxiliary Fe, I know this is leaving you wanting and possibly a bit resentful, but I’m just going to hang on to this boring and orderly worker-bee way of doing things…you know…just in case we need it someday. I promise that I won’t say another word about it.” And low and behold, there Te was for you to call on when you needed it. And it was still as drole and unsatisfying as you remembered, but just as useful (kept in its place). It’s a super cool strategy, again, thanks so much for sharing 🙂
Me too. I also like a minimal orderly environment.
I have rules of engagement with Te which by and large work well. 15 years ago I decided to appoint Te as my ‘Office Manager’ and it’s turned into a long-standing and generally thriving relationship.
I had a senior corporate job (fortunately in a comparatively creative function), a young child with a life-threatening illness, a toddler, and a soon-to-be-ex husband who spent every day in a drunken stupor because he couldn’t face our son’s prognosis. If I sank too, we all sank and there was no way I was going to let that happen, but the paralysis was awful. In the hospital other parents coped by keeping themselves busy, helping on the ward and trying not to think about the future; I coped by journalling, reading, researching and coming up with ten different plans for ten different potential futures … all the things INFJs turn to. And entangled in everything was this dilemma; if I don’t transform myself into some super-organised being whose life revolves around structures, timetables, checklists, routines and deliverables (and of course in my mind’s eye, organised was not enough, only super-organised was acceptable) everything will fall apart, but if I do I will lose my very essence. It wasn’t that I had poor organising skills, I just didn’t like using them unless it was to achieve something that excited me and I knew my pattern; the more stress I was under the more I resisted the mundane and the dreary.
The idea of actively drawing on Te came to me whilst browsing an article on dissociative identity disorder. What if each function had a distinct personality and I could use them like a support team, accepting that Ni would remain my dominant or ‘true’ personality. Was it doable? Would it help or would it tip me into insanity? It was worth a try. And for me it really did work.
I can best explain by anthropomorphising the functions and describing them as employees of a small business. I’m the CEO (Ni) and I love to hang out with my Creative Director, Fe. We’re a great team, we innovate, we produce stuff, we’re synergistic and we have fun. My Communications Director (Ti) makes us sense-check what we’re working on. We can’t do without her but she tries to dominate and has to be kept in check. Meanwhile, the three of us in a room (Ni, Fe and Ti) are so focused on our pet project of the moment that we can’t be bothered to pay the taxes, get the cleaners in or buy more coffee.
That’s why I appointed the Office Manager (Te). Te is responsible for all the routine stuff no-one else wants to do and Te enjoys it. I don’t get a buzz spending time with Te but I do get a sense of satisfaction as we plough through things and that brings peace of mind, which makes my creative time with Fe all the more enjoyable. So I meet up with Te a couple of times a day and we … get … stuff … done. Te is instructed to turf us out and turn off the lights if we’re still beavering away at a stupid hour. Te is also instructed to call me and tell me to get my backside into work if I’m in a slump, lost in my own thinking. Te has learnt a great technique for motivating me – “I know you don’t want to tear yourself away but most of the stuff we need to do today requires your body more than your mind, so while you’re driving to that errand or we’re filing those papers, you can immerse yourself in thinking. (Te is boring and compliant so doesn’t demand conversation from me). I’ve also learnt that spending an hour with Te is a very good way of recharging after a bout of Ti’s nit-picking.
Te has another important role – liaising with my events planner, Se. Se wants to see me out and about networking and attending social events, as well as throwing the occasional party. I had a rocky history with Se until I got Te more involved. Se would come up with all these fun ideas and then I’d avoid the party because I hadn’t bought a dress, or I’d cancel the picnic because I hadn’t organised the food. (Those weren’t the real reasons of course, but they were plausible-sounding excuses) Se was sick and tired of me complaining how overwhelming things were. It was painful having Se berate me about the consequences of hiding. I learnt that pairing Se and Ti was disastrous. They would waste weeks trying to locate the perfect gift-wrap without buying the gift. Se and Te, in contrast, are a dynamic duo. With them on the case it’s so much harder to find excuses to isolate myself. Yes, the travel arrangements have been made. Yes, the food is cooked and in the freezer… I might still rail against socialising but I’m ten times more likely to enjoy it.
What I’ve learnt over the years is that willingly letting Te tell me what to do and make me do it keeps the show on the road and all of my functions happy. But Te knows that I need to do it in short bursts. A fortnight immersed in accounts risks the miserable gatecrasher Fi barging onto the premises. And at the end of the day I’m secure in the knowledge that I (Ni) have the final say, that I manage each of these functions, not the other way round, and that if I occasionally feel like closing the office and curling under the duvet to do nothing other than ponder on life and universe I can, just because I am the boss and they are not.
Reading through what I’ve written I’m struck by how exhausting and contrived it sounds. Perhaps that’s because of the analogy I’ve employed, as strangely it’s not. I don’t have to consciously think “Oh, today I need to get Se and Te together”, it’s become second nature. And there are periods it goes out of the window, but I’ve always returned to it and it’s helped me through some of the toughest times of my life.
A couple of years ago I was intrigued to see the writer Gretchen Rubin (author of The Happiness Project and I’m pretty certain not an INFJ) describe a similar approach.
“Do you sometimes feel as if you’re two people? For a long time, I struggled to identify the metaphor to describe the tension between my two selves—between now-Gretchen and future-Gretchen, between the want-self and should-self. Is it Jeckyll and Hyde? The angel and devil on my shoulders? The elephant and the rider? The ego, the id, and the super-ego?
Then in a flash, I saw how to think about the two Gretchens, and how to think of myself in the third person, as a way better to understand myself and direct my actions. There’s me, Gretchen (now-Gretchen, want-Gretchen), and there’s my manager.
Who is my “manager?” Well, I’m like a fabulous celebrity. I have a manager. I’m lucky, because I have the best manager imaginable. My manager understands my unique situation, interests, quirks, and values, and she’s always thinking about my long-term well-being.
I’m the boss, and I don’t have to take my manager’s advice—but on the other hand, I pay my manager to help me. I’d be an idiot not to pay attention.
These days, when I struggle with something, I ask myself, “What does my manager say?” Often it’s very obvious to my manager what course I should follow, even if I can’t decide (weird right?). It can be a relief to be told what to do; I agree with Andy Warhol, who remarked, “When I think about what sort of person I would most like to have on a retainer, I think it would be a boss. A boss who could tell me what to do, because that makes everything easy when you’re working.”
My manager is the executive who works for me—very appropriate, because my manager is part of my executive function. There’s no need to rebel against my manager, because I am the boss of my manager. (Not to mention, I am the manager.) Out of freedom, I can accept her instruction.
My manager reminds me to follow my good habits: “Gretchen, you feel overwhelmed and angry. Get a good night’s sleep and answer that email in the morning.” “Gretchen, you say you have no energy, but you’ll feel better if you go for a walk.”
My manager stays compassionate. She doesn’t say things like, “You’ll never be able to finish,” or “You’re lazy.” She’s comforting and encouraging, and says things like, “It happens,” “We’ve all done it,” and “Enjoy the fun of failure.”
My manager stands up for me when other people are too demanding. She insists that my idiosyncratic needs must be met; just as Van Halen famously insisted on bowls of M&Ms backstage, with all the brown ones removed, my manager says, “Gretchen really feels the cold, so she can’t be outside too long.” “Gretchen is writing her new book now, so she can’t give a lengthy response to that email.”
She makes claims on my behalf: “Let’s figure out how to get you what you need,” “Let’s throw money at the problem.” On the other hand, she doesn’t accept excuses like, “This doesn’t count” or “Everyone else is doing it.” She tells me uncomfortable truths. I can’t sneak anything past my manager, because she sees everything I do.”
Awesomeness! Your share is truly helpful.
And your son is in my heart.
Thank you for sharing this, Karen.
This makes me wonder again. Could our personal development process (individuation?) involve some sort of reconciliation with our shadow functions? Karen’s use of Te is not just “a dot of black paint.” As a result of using Te to such a degree, is she now less of her true INFJ self than she could have been otherwise? I get the sense that she is now more developed as a person than she would have become if, say, she actually had someone in her life who was a Te embodiment for her. When our environment challenges our personality type, what does it really mean to our personal development process? A challenge to avoid or a chance to embrace? If that depends on our attitude, what exactly is that attitude that makes all the difference?
Morning Pages sounds great, but letting Fe excited is not enough for me at all… I need Ti to come in there, pick an Fe articulation at a time, and give each a definite and concrete shape. I actually do journal writing the first thing in the morning, but I primarily use Ti then to expand on one idea at a time (I pool Fe articulations throughout the day “as is” without editing). That calms my soul more than anything.
I seem to have this root desire to have my Ni eventually manifest itself in real tangible form that I can see and touch. For that, I need to follow through what Fe articulated by employing both Ti and Se…
I love this response. I also function something like this although I had never named them until I learned about being an infj. Now I sometimes say to myself get out of ti mode or I’m getting caught up in fi. But I recognize the different functions and what role they play in my life management. Unfortunately, my te manager goes on long vacations and things can spin out of control quickly.
TinyYellowTree
Thank you. I am touched by your kindness.
Tom
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Interesting. I was in a relationship with an ENTJ for several years and found it luxurious to be able to spend less time working with my own Te, less time having to be the responsible adult. Although I’ve learnt to harness Te (and Se) I revert given half a chance. I hate driving but as I have to do it I’ve worked hard to become the best, safest driver I am able. Given the opportunity to employ a chauffeur I’d gladly never drive again. Same with Te. I’m always conscious of living in a way that supports my circumstances rather than one that reflects my true nature.
Michelle, yes those pesky long vacations! If I actively use Te daily she turns up for work; if I don’t she disappears in a sulk. Glad to know I’m not alone.
Yes, I see what you mean and I can relate. I hate driving myself but when I do have to muster up the energy to drive, I am usually happy that I did it, patting on my own shoulder with praises, etc. But I would not volunteer to do it again. (Same with socializing that my ESFJ wife often drags me through…)
This was brilliant! Thank you so much for sharing 🙂
“Basically, an INFJ needs Te for starting and stopping.”
O so helpful to hear. Parameters, guidelines, goalposts oh my:-) I am re-inspired to do the morning writing exercise; great book. I feel ive spent a life time or two naturally resisting projected starting and stopping points and everything in-between. I don’t/didn’t know why really (could rarely articulate it to the satisfaction of the authority of the moment or more importantly myself); just didn’t feel right – I could color in side the lines but then my picture would look like yours and would not feel like mine. Anyway, self defining with Te gives the rebel without a cause the ability to call back the projected rejection of projected and ill fitting containment. Or something like that:-)
Nice to read your fresh work again:-)
Thanks
Good article as usual, but I guess my Ti is wondering a few things now:
#1. The first thing I felt reading this article was the unease of the idea of “bare minimum.” It doesn’t sit well… Not clean cut. How do we let our Fe decide what “minimum” is? Fe has a strong tendency to override Te’s dictate as to frequency, sequence, and quantity. Can it contradict its own urges? If it can, from what source? Ni? Could Ni be deciding for Te instead?
#2. Can Te ever truly be “in the context” of Fe, in the first place? Would we usually not say “in the context” to mean the ones in the lower stacks? What would be the difference between “Te in the context of Fe” and “Ti in the context of Fe” for INFJ? They should be different in some ways, shouldn’t they?
#3. One more… I agree that a “contrast” is always implied in these things, but could we not then argue that the best balance for Fe would be to allow Te to completely counterbalance Fe? Instead of bare minimum Te, we would then want Te and Fe at 50/50? (… at which point our personality flickers with INTJs’?)
Don’t mean to come across critical – I like your article – I just like to explore a few details to understand it a bit better.
Thanks.
@#3. Gods no!
TinyYellowTree, yes, I hear your Fe reacting to #3. Now, how does your Ti elaborate this cry of Fes for Fe (or Ni)? Or do you resist going further down your stack?
#3. 50/50 fe/te is awful. Te gets so out of control and rigid that no one can do anything correctly including me. I don’t have this issue much but my isfj husband can fall into te superego and be impossible to live with. Maybe dominant si has an influence but I can be incredibly perfectionist with too much te, especially of myself.
Interesting Michelle. Rigidity and perfectionism, however, can’t be directly caused by merely having too much Te, though, I don’t think (healthy ISTJs and INTJs handle their Tes). It could be a trigger for INFJ, but the root cause seems to be more than just Te. Just thinking.
I would think te auxiliary is very different than te superego. I can only speak from my personal experience but if I try to communicate through te I usually sound like a drill sergeant or I wield ti facts like a sword and destroy people. I also end up in tears because I have lost all my composure and feel out of sorts. It is a terrible place for me. It’s my version of a temper tantrum. Completely different from my usual quite fi id crying I do alone in my bed. Too much te meltdown is very extraverted and ugly. This is my experience with a te overload. I’m far from an expert. I will say this, when I first started to learn about Myers Briggs, our family was going through and had been going through an extended period of very intense stress and my husband te superego was so out of control I thought he was an istj until I found this website and realized he was trapped in this function most of the time. These are my thoughts on this I could be way off base.
What she said! I kin. I need to think about it more before going into it, but wanted to let you know, Michelle, how embarrassingly accurate I found this.
And Tom, can you reword your question about elaborating this cry? So far my answer to your question on resisting is both how can I resist being fully my functions and damned right I resist. If you can be clearer, maybe I can too.
TinyYellowTree, no problem. What I meant was simply: why do you/we resist the idea of 50/50 : Fe/Te? Yes, I know we are just that way as INFJ; Fe comes naturally. But I’m just taking further what Blake implied, which is that we actually depend on Te for our Fe to function (or for that matter, I gather this then should apply to any other shadow functions for the rest of our own functions), as it gives Fe a contrast we need to identify and utilize Fe. (Hope that’s what he meant.) Then, what is it for us to stop at, say, 95/5 : Fe/Te? Why not 50/50 : Fe/Te? Wouldn’t it be better? In other words, why do we prefer 95/5 over 50/50 in the first place?
What is it that gives this imbalance/preference? What is it that makes 50/50 somehow uncomfortable for us? (I guess I should be asking this to Jung instead…)
I’m relatively new to the theory of personality type. Just wondering out loud. I’ve talked too much – I’ll stop here. 🙂
This floating in space, spinning and finding, grasping and writing needs time. Loads of time and reflection and gathering. Honestly, I’ve thought about your question for a while now, and my thoughts on it are is still a massive, convoluted pile, much of it thick with old dust.
Why do I resist Te? Why when it is aimed at me, asked of me, do I growl and bare my teeth? And then I get angry because I am doing, but there is just so much that can always be done.
It is the sand. The desert sand will cover all that Te. And one day it may blow away. And something beautiful might be revealed, a stone city, carved out of the mountain and an enormous garbage heap might also be uncovered. And both are Te. The art, the culture, and everything discarded in our constant endeavors, but imagine that garbage pile, and that rock city, the things will learn from these, two thousand years later.
We as people do what we want to do, or conversely, we resist the hell out of everything everyone else wants us to do, and in doing so, we throw the baby out with the bathwater. We see Te as requirements of our time and space and energy [and we only get so much and most is spent pondering, 95/5], and we drag our feet and make ourselves sick and cringe and cry and revolt. Because we had it, and in proper measure, as children, we naturally chose what mattered to us to do. We were trekking along just fine, a little messy but fairly functional, and then the expectations of our adult world, and everyone else’s preferences hit us like a motherfucking semi, and we are having trouble getting back up, cause it just comes around the block and smashes us again and again.
You say, why can’t we have 50/50? Because we were not meant to do everything we or anyone else thinks up. We are meant to think about what we do. We are meant to ask ourselves if we really need to make every little thing, or get it done, if we really need to weed, or if we are killing the bees, and do we need to interfere with things we don’t half understand to begin with? Oh but we do regardless.
To be here is to devour with Te, and every move we make is a trade. Our wonderful and ridiculous selves for pieces of our paradise. And if we look around, someone else is making much of it cheaper and faster than we ever could because we strive for godly perfection.
And there are so many of us, and so much done, and often very thoughtlessly. So my Te in greater amounts is not needed. This is not to say I don’t find some things worthy of making, in fact it hurts not to, but it is that our Te is meant only to be enough to make what matters most to us, not to fritter tirelessly but to focus on something done as well as we can do it. And this requires our using Te in measured quantity for ourselves and those we love, and what we see as important enough to contribute energy to, sometimes, because expectations of Te are an endless suck and Fe will give freely…
And Fi is pissed, so pissed we’ve let ourselves be eaten up by other people’s Te, abashed at some of the fruitless results. Because not everything needs to be done or should be. There are endless ideas, but not every one of them is destined for glory.
Jesus is coming, look busy! No! Jesus is coming, so put the kettle on and brew some tea, exchange ideas and more importantly listen, and think a bit before we bulldoze.
Te as a means to our creativity has been overrun with Te as better get that paperwork done, and you can have the tidiest house, and do that for her and this for him and your well will run dry and you won’t have done what you came for. Overwhelmed, even what will help is hissed at.
So 95/5, because coming to an understanding of what matters will reduce what actually needs doing by 45%.
I did not go into Te as self discipline, as it will help us and is crucial, but others here have and very well. I was asked why I resist.
TinyYellowTree… Seriously? Isn’t this why INFJs are the most endangered type? We lose our Ni authenticity when we stop and reflect upon all so colourful Fes, which we have given in to stop, turn back, and start to admire ourselves. Stagnant Ni bears no fruit that freely could nourish, not just our own, but also all the others’ souls.
So why stop at Fe? Why not let it come down all the way further? We have the gift of Ni+Ti that could generate the hottest and brightest heat and light to the world. We have the gift of Fe+Se to let this radioactive words out to the world, while taking in much needed fresh air to keep our nuclear introversion going. Why hesitate to run our whole life-threatening but so rewarding processes? Why are we breathing so so shallow? Are we in the midst of having an orgasm from our typological masturbation?
Sure, our Ni + Fe gifts us with wonderful imageries to play around with. Let’s not get carried away treating them as if they are the end in themselves. We need to let our Ti do its work, to carve out from this marble stone the prophet, who actually speaks sense to the world.
All you said here is that you just like being INFJ at the expense of INTJ. You just needed to pen one sentence, which does not speak much sense to the world…
It’s fine to let the spider go wild on acid at first – yes, let it run and amuse us. But we’ve got to interpret the meaning that it left behind us through our Ti, put it in the linguistic form pleasing to our Se, so we don’t just throw the footprints of spider at the world to our own amusement.
I’m actually sorry coming on a bit harsh. Hope you have a generous heart to take my Te or Fi or whatever going wild here. I just don’t have what it takes to appreciate the modern art. 🙁
I think the reason you asked your questions in the first place is because you do not listen.
My point, in one sentence: I strive to create with Fe and Fi and Se and Ti and yet I find myself drowning in expectations of Te to the point that I’ve come to reject anything that looks like imposed order, as it feels a constant distraction from my pondering art, even knowing a littleTe is required to succeed in my few chosen endeavors.
I am telling you I am broken in places, I’m stumbling and I’ve a long way to go.
Modern art?
TinyYellowTree, my sincere apologies. I feel awful, really. I asked you a question and, I was plain rude. I understand you have your process that you need to go through. I respect that. I am truly sorry.
I’m afraid I just inadvertently demonstrated what an INFJ’s Te explosion looked like. It’s been a tough week for me, still trying to shake the aftershock of my own supernova last week, which I mentioned earlier in response to Michelle. I’m sorry.
I have only read bits and pieces of Blake’s articles, and I think I get what he is saying when I am reading it, but I can’t quite keep the form of what I took away from there for very long. It’s not his fault; it’s how my mind responds to this style.
Blake’s articles have substances, but the form is loose and free. To me, this loose and free form he utilizes gives the image of a matrix with gem still embedded in it. They are not pieces of finished jewels, set, and packaged all ready to be worn (thus, harder, at least for me, to retain in my memory). Now I understand that he is doing this on purpose to let it flow. I think I get the point. But I also feels that we’re not supposed to stop there.
I feel that there are two separate steps for INFJs. 1. Let Ni all come out through Fe. After that’s done, 2. Let Ti sculpt it to a glorious Se. In both of these activities, it is our Ni dictating and commanding. Ni is always there providing the context to everything we do. What comes out as a result is, however, still a “system” that is obviously built by hand in the end, but strangely do not look artificial at all. It bears a depth of substance that embodies its innate power, namely, the ideas that actually and immediately change the way we behave, because it both touches our heart and show the exact path to follow. I think INFJs have the ability to pull this off.
Blake, of course, is not obliged to do 2. for us. It’s his website, so he can define the scope of his work as he sees fit. I’m not complaining at all.
I feel more and more that these INFJ struggles and confusion come from a root confusion of two separate steps above into one. We struggle with Te, Ti, Fe, Fi, etc. and get so confused… The very fact that we are so self-conscious of our functions while we are using our functions does not sound right to me. It’s like trying to coordinate a few dozens of muscle groups in my right shoulder and arm and hand and fingers and try to send nerve signals in specific synchronized order to effect picking up a coffee mug to my mouth without spilling anything on my lap, while also paying attention to the eye movement and thermo-sensory around lips (oh, don’t forget to keep the pace of your heat beat. And your lungs – keep it going). You get so aware of our own inner workings to the debilitating level that we get frozen in place. And you suddenly see a young child walking over, pick the coffee mug up in question, give you an insidious grin, and start pouring the contents over your lap… While we ask ourselves in disbelief how in the world he just did that so flawlessly, we immediately get pulled away to respond Se crisis developing and start the muscular sequence to deal with the burning sensation on your loins…
Yes, modern art. When we stop at step 1, I think whatever we produce look like modern art. When we follow up with step 2, I think we get classic art, that touches our soul and bring us on our knees.
Tom, it happens, and while my Fi got a bit bent, it is alright now. I tore into someone months ago with the sword of an infj and damn. I realized not for the first time that I can be devastating, and the worst part was that I had feared he would do it to me.
Lately I’ve been struck with even more instances where I should watch my mouth, and be aware of Fi’s presence, lest I really regret what I say. And I try so hard, so it came as a surprise that I was still messing up so much.
Studying here, I am seeing, as you say, my muscles, and a veritable puzzle, and I will take it apart and play with it, but I don’t fear seeing the functions laid out like this. I love it. Because my Fi is oozing and spurting, for lack of Fe release and seeing this, I can fix it. I’ve been shown where to start. We are learning a new language. If we keep at it, it will become automatic and we won’t be scrutinizing every tiny action and nuance.
As it happens, thinking on our Q&A, I was given another reminder that not everyone is going to understand me, clear as I try to be and if I am going to write, I need to be okay with that. Not okay with negligence, but okay with misinterpretation. It is unavoidable with people having so many different perspectives and being in so many different places in life.
And that brings me to Blake’s gems. His writing is step 2, or… it reads concisely. I see Ti and Se magnificence. For you maybe it reads more like impressionism? His writing to me it is like Dali. Is Dali modern? I don’t know, but it both inspires me and brings me to my knees.
I think as you read his works whole, and more, it will come clearer. I’ve studied this for around two years before finding Blake, so while I am still having aha moments left and right, I am not as confused as I surely would have been in the beginning before the functions focused somewhat.
Still things drift from me, I know the feeling. Some days I have a grip and others I can’t hold it in my head at all. Persistence is key for me. Sweet dreams.
TinyYellowTree. Interesting. Yes, Blake’s writing could be those, but whatever that might be, it is cut out into a jigsaw puzzle… I often get the urge to shuffle the pieces and reconstruct it. But again, it’s all good. I’m just observing how people have different internal processes in more concrete terms. In real life I am very isolated from opportunities to share and discuss a topic like this at this depth, so I am learning quite a lot both from his article as well as comments from the readers.
True – persistence is key. I have absolutely no problem being persistent.
That’s brilliant!
So far the Te I’ve experienced made the use of Fe so much “safer” and more “efficient”. My anxiety level dropped because having less choices can be paradoxically freeing.
So thank you Blake !
Thanks Michelle.
That is amazing to me… Te overload that you mentioned perfectly describes what I went through last week at a gathering of 30 people or so I was a part of. I didn’t realize in the midst of my talk, but I was pushing everyone to a very uncomfortable place. When the reception was blank (no comment), I felt so awful at how tactless my approach was and it set the downcast mood, which still lingers now.
The subject discussed there was very close to my heart, and I think about it all the time, meaning that my emotions are already attached by the time my Ti is involved (that seems to be what kick-starts and drives Ti in the first place for me). As a result of spending much time refining the thoughts, truths that are now in my hand are usually sharp, and when I share them with others, they comes out so easily along with the emotions behind them… It is as if my Te is just an embodiment of a marriage of Ti and Fe in one. But this Te seems to have a will of its own, and I am rather scared of what it is capable of doing. I have so much I need to learn.
On this issue – Te superego – which article of his helped you?
Thanks.
Oops – I used a wrong “reply.” The above is in response to Michelle’s comment on Mar 8, 4:02pm. Sorry.
Tom I can empathize with you on letting your passion for a subject get out of hand in a social situation. It has happened to me many times. If you read about sagittarius rising which is an implied position for infj’s, you might recognize some of that behavior comes from that energy. Sagittarius sometimes can be tactless and overly passionate. It’s sometimes hard for me to tell the difference until I have quiet time to analyze the situation. As far as which article helped me, all of them and many, many other sources. I’ve only known about myers briggs for 2 years, before that I studied the enneagram. In the last 2 years I’ve study all kinds of resources. The first thing I read about was a brief understanding of Freuds version of id,ego and superego. That lead me to read about ego states from a therapeutic viewpoint. The id is called the child ego state, superego is referred to as the parent and the ego is called the adult. I read about transactional behavior analysis therapy. Somewhere along the way I discovered I was an infj. I hardly recognized myself in the description where they use only the first four functions. That box was way, way too small for me. When I found a website that talked about using all 8 functions and they assigned archetype to each function I started to pay more attention to being an infj. Then I discovered this website and I started to become more conscious of the individual functions and how they affected my behaviors. I like to think of it as now I have a language [actual words] to call my behavior instead of just an intuitive knowing. When I feel emotions now, I have a certain amount of safety that I can name the function and recognize the behavior that goes along with that function and I don’t feel so out of control, or at the mercy of my very strong emotions [scorpio moon]. For me, scorpio moon is always active. If i use Fe in the appropriate way, it’s like a soft rain. It allows my pisces sun or Fe to have depth and insight that amazes me sometimes. But, if I lose my Pisces, scorpio moon becomes like a hurricane. If I try to suppress it, it grows into a category 5 hurricane. Which if I lived alone and never had to be around people, it would be like hurricane that stays over the ocean not much destruction. But when a level 5 hurricane hits land, well complete distruction of everything in its path, including the hurricane. This is a way I would describe what happens to me when my Te superego gets fueled by my scorpion moon {fi}. I’m the hurricane other people are the land and I destroy all of us. And afterwards……it takes me days and sometimes weeks to get over it. Now that I have a language it becomes easier for me to recognize where my behavior is going and I can walk away from a situation and put myself together. I have been doing that for a long time, but inconsistently. Now that I have something to call this eruption, I can feel my Te explosion coming on and I literally say to myself, ” Te explosion ” and I walk or sometimes run away. I would rather have a week of rolling around in Fi misery than a 5 minute Te hurricane. It is my least favorite place to be. I know this is long but I hope it helps.
Thanks Michelle. Yes, this is helpful.
I don’t quite know how to interpret typology in terms of astrology, but I see that these frameworks help us to step out and observe our own mental processes while we are in the midst of the processing. It’s quite remarkable. I stumbled upon the typology a few months ago, and it was far more than eye-opening to me – I just couldn’t stop welling up. It’s like an orphan finding out that you actually have a living family.
Are you aware the very process where you start losing your Fe and which eventually triggers the birth of a hurricane? Does the trigger reside on land where people are or in the ocean where you are all alone? When your hurricane shift its course to the ocean or turn prematurely into a stationary high pressure instead, would that still bring satisfactory closure for you?
Blake could you express your thoughts about how a relationship between an infj4 female and an enfj8 male would turn out? I’m curious. I feel it would be an extremely intense relationship due to their personalities. Thank you 🙂
The INFJ would do their INFJ door slam thing and the ENFJ would punch a hole through the door and …
Yeah, it’s intense.
But what about the good parts? How would they connect with each other? I’m asking because I’m an infj and I have a pretty hard crush on a guy who I’m pretty sure is an Enfj and I feel its mutual but we’re both sort of feeling it out.We have this awkward but intense sexual attraction/chemistry thing going on but I’m not sure if an actual relationship was to happen,then how it would work out; or whether it would work out at all.
Blake, I emailed you with a question, and you responded but I am getting Mailer Daemons each time I try to reply or compose… so, in response, that sounds awesome, looking forward to it, and you are so worthwhile and welcome.
Hopefully the mail issues are short lived. No idea if it is on my side yet. Not so savvy.
They should be fixed now. The problems were coming from the mail server via my host. Try to email me again. If it doesn’t work, I will definitely have to look further into it.
Okay, doing so.
I like to think that Fe means consideration for others. Just a simple generosity. I encourage others to do their work then I won’t have to :-))
Do you think the same concept would apply to other types who are stuck in their loops? Like INTJs should utilize Fe minimums in order to help guide their Te?
Yep, the math is the same all the way round 🙂
The math is the same all around except that Te and Fe are sort of things you can do willingly, but Ne and Se are harder to willingly do?
Maximum Ne with minimum Se, how do you will that??
Thanks Blake. makes sense.
As for Se min with Ne.. Sounds like for an Se minimum would be to stay grounded in reality. Like explore all you want but make sure to build in a food or bathroom or exercise break. lol Perhaps let your mind wander within the confines of nursing your coffee and when the coffee’s done, move on? Something like that.
Considering this, so an INTJ feeling stuck would benefit for having maximum Te and minimum Fe in his Ni context?
I like that Fe-minimums imply that you should acknowledge other people exist when going through with your plans, probably greeting them when you see them or reciprocal smiling/showing facial expressions so you don’t come off as a jerk that everyone will wish to impede. A touch of audience awareness, probably.
Like these things should be obvious, but I think a lot of INTJs don’t realize being “nice/helpful/presentable” to people would be “useful” (e.g. it’s more effective if people will cooperate with you because they like you). I also have an INFJ friend for whom “Te-minimums” (e.g. deadlines, start-and-end points) was not really obvious as a strategy/skill to make life easy until later in life.. so I guess this is sort of a blind spot for all types.
And even though I say this like I understand, I don’t really know how to implement it in my own life in a way that I am not too lazy/won’t find too irritating to pursue. 😀 It’s a stubborn blindspot.
OK, Fe minimum is (sadly) “People”. But this doesn’t help me at all. I thought that the Fe-minimum strategy would help INTJs stuck because they don’t have a long term goal set yet. I’m struggling with not having that. Do you have any opinion on that? Thanks for the reply.
It probably in this case means “make sure your goals are useful for others/that people will like what you’re doing”. And to ask people their opinions! (Yes, I know this is horrible and I wouldn’t want to do it either LOL)
I myself am kind of going through life at a bare minimum, just making sure I have enough money to save up, but haven’t executed any of my bigger grander plans and projects yet (always stuck in pre-planning stage). From what other people have said, it seems like if I started even without planning everything out yet, they will support me in some way or even help out with admin and critique, but I am.. .. stuck with no wanting to really relinquish control over to the opinions of others. So that’s where I am stuck.. so maybe I should.. JUST DO IT.
Are you Leo?
In response to tiny yellow tree 3-11 2:18
Yes, yes and yes!!!!
The outside world has so many Te expectations of me. I use to judge myself so harshly because I would get overwhelmed by other people’s needs and my inability to get everything done to my utopian vision. As this Te discussion has gone on I’ve come to realize that I’m using a function that is so far down the stack that I feel like, no wonder I can’t get this right all the time. This is so far away from my higher functions. I’m much better at using Te as an internal manager but I have kids and they require me to be a Te external manager. Finally, compassion for myself in this area. Yay, another part of myself integrated ????????. In fact, I do a damn good job using a function that is so incredibly hard for me to access.
Thank you, verily.
Tom
I read your post several times on what triggers a hurricane and can I get closure without destruction ( I think that’s what you’re asking). I think both questions are highly intuitive inquiries. On the surface I can get triggered by other people’s energy or a heated discussion or countless other reasons, especially when I was younger. But, I now realize that reactions that are that powerful, hold a much deeper meaning. I have worked very hard for many years connecting those kind of reactions to things in my past. I believe that anything that causes that much pain or discomfort or anger or any other emotion that I feel is always related to something else. Everything is connected. Which brings me to the ever desirable and yet sometimes so elusive closure. Again, on the surface level, I know and use many coping skills to alleviate and release my emotions so that temporary closure occurs. But I also know until I dig deep enough to make the connection between the past and the present I will continue to get triggered. This is how I personally HAVE to do things. Everyone’s different. So my need to uncover every truth about myself may not be necessary for you to get closure. I really want to encourage you to listen to your intuition. when I was in my 20’s I used to think my intuition was only the light bulb moments but as I got older I learned to pay attention to subtle pauses that lasted only a millisecond. That’s when the universe opened to me and I started experiencing spiritual and emotional growth in ways I never thought possible. I hope I haven’t over answered your question. I love the conversations that have been inspired by the article.
Michelle, yes, that was indeed what I was wondering.
I thought, suspected, and searched for a long while a causality of my tactless “explosion” into the past (along with other infirmities that would require a spreadsheet to capture in full). I think there are indeed a lot of things from the past, which still dictate from their forgotten graves my perceiving, processing, and acting of the present, but upon understanding this typology theory, I started to think the causality rather lies in the here and now of our type, embedded within our very structure. You have it, I have it, and it seems a lot of other INFJ do have it. Blake writes about it, but I need more edge to what I have gathered so far.
I’m beginning to see something, and I’m suspecting that there is a hint in an act of abandonment. Have you ever felt a state of mind where you feel like your entire functional stack just got shuffled into some other completely foreign type? It happened to me a few times, each lasting for a few hours. It usually occurs when I am physically exhausted to an extreme. Something happens when I’m pushed to the extreme that turns OFF a switch in me. I then gain a whole new level of peace and calm that are beyond belief. How was I able to live this far without it?!
There is something that is always ON in my system, and I suspect that it is at least providing the fuel for my explosion. It manifests as “worry” that is there constantly, and I am usually tense physically and mentally. I am so used to it all my life that it does not bother me like the noise inside an airplane, but, when it is OFF, man… The sheer beauty of the silence that emerges is so breathtaking.
Yes, I’ll keep listening to my intuition. I can’t help it. I understand that feeling of the light bulbs that last very short while. I try to capture them all with thousands of journal entries that keep growing every single day. It is just so encouraging to know that I am not alone going through these experiences.
Thank you.
Tom
Wow. I know those moments of complete peace and calm after being driven to the edge. It has happened only a handful of times in my life and each has been profound and unforgettable. It normally lasts 24 hours and then vanishes in a puff of smoke. I’ve never even got close to summoning it at will. You?
It is profound and unforgettable. I’ve only a handful of the experience, and I know the specific circumstances. The first one was the most intense, and it did last for more than a day. The level of inner peace and confidence was so profound that someone came over specifically to tell me how he noticed it and was impressed by it. But the fact that I was feeling it as “intense” meant that it would not last long, and it did fade away and I was back to normal.
No, unfortunately, I can’t summon it at will. I don’t think it’s something we can summon while we will it. That’s why I want to affect it indirectly but preconditioning. For that, I need to understand what it was and establish the causality…
So yes, that sounds just like an orgasm. Our existential orgasm, that we are having issues achieving…
Typology analysis is like studying instructions on how to have pleasure. Te explosions, etc. are our being frustrated at ourselves how it’s not working yet (or premature ejaculation for men – not implying my circumstances just fyi – that accompanies a degree of pleasure but is always met with silent disappointment from the world and self-censure that immediately follows it). Masturbation is like our getting pleasure for ourselves while leaving the world bewildered at the sight of us performing it (our fellow INFJs are probably the only ones who find it stimulating and get tempted into joining the act…).
I look for that orgasm, but I don’t want to just settle with self-pleasure. I want to connect with the world, and for that, I need to enhance myself, which is possible without compromising (and no, I’m not referring to the size of our equipment). It is about refining ourselves to be “desirable,” primarily meaning, relevant to the world, the majority of whom do not operate from Ni.
What I am beginning to notice is that, as long as we are fiercely looking for that orgasm, it will fiercely escape us. I feel we need to abandon this very effort chasing after it. But I don’t know what I am really noticing here… Ni is talking; Ti is struggling. 🙁
I’ve had similar profound and transcendent experiences in the past. The circumstances which triggered them are astoundingly similar to those described by Michelle, Tom and Karen: a period of intense and prolonged physical, mental and emotional strain; usually triggered by outside circumstances (such as work pressures). The stress builds up over several days (or sometimes weeks…) until it is almost unbearable; and then all that pent up energy is suddenly released in a burst of transcendent awesomeness. Words are wholly inadequate to describe the experience, but I can say that these transcendent moments have been the peak experiences of my entire life.
The “enlightened state” typically lasts anything from a few minutes to several hours, but on one notable occasion it stayed with me for nearly a week, gradually fading until I returned to (more or less) baseline consciousness. This happened in 2003, and was triggered by a series of intense life circumstances over a prolonged period. Much of what I felt and perceived during that time remained with me even when I returned to “normal”, and I was forever transformed by the experience.
It is my belief that this specific type of transcendent awareness (often described by other INFJs and INTJs) may actually be a result of our dominant Introverted Intuition operating at its highest level. Ni as a dominant function is often strangely unavailable for conscious access. Perhaps it is off exploring parallel dimensions, or is fully engaged in its background mode as a psychic Operating System. However, at times of extreme crisis, maybe Ni is forced to intervene before we disintegrate utterly. Like some all-powerful but aloof deity, Ni appears from nowhere to miraculously drive back the forces of chaos and save the day.
Once the crisis is averted, Ni then may decide to hang around for a while to help return order to our community of inner sub-selves. For a brief period, Ni is fully present and therefore able to share a small portion of its shining awesomeness and profound insights with the feeble masses, before it disappears once more into the blue yonder.
As a coincidental aside, I am currently going through a similar stressful period brought on by intense pressures at work and home. Yesterday, I almost exploded under the massive psychic stress, but managed instead to put out a request for urgent spiritual help to the Gods/Aliens/Magic Faerie Spirits/Giant Spaghetti Monsters/Whatever (collectively referred to for convenience as the PTB (Powers That Be)).
Today, as if by magic, all the dramas and urgent work deadlines are gradually disappearing of their own accord and with very little effort required on my part. My stress and overstimulation has been replaced by a state of relaxation and calm reflection. Nothing as profound as the 2003 experience I described above, but exactly what I needed at this time and place.
Incredible how simple it all seems now – if only I could remember to do this again in the future before my stress hits crisis level!
Hey Blake! I’m interested in your starling/membership site thing, but I’ve never heard of Memberful and I don’t know anything about it and can’t find any reviews, so I feel a little hesitant about giving it my CC info. (This is not about you – I hope that’s clear.) Is there a way to pay Memberful through PayPal, or can you share some information about why you picked them for your membership program? Or anyone else out there reading this know anything about the service? Thanks!
Hi SeeTheElephant, If you google search “memberful reviews” or “memberful safe” there is quite a bit of information that comes up. How did you conduct your research?
Michelle, I find your response pretty rude: it isn’t weird to ask for clarification on credit card safety. I’m essentially a professional researcher: if I can’t find something, it’s because the information isn’t there, not because I’m a moron who can’t google correctly. There are NO client-end reviews of the service in the first four pages of results, only hits that start with people who use the service to make money and become increasingly distant and SEO-y. I checked out their social media mentions (same) and then I politely asked Blake for clarification. Is that enough research for you?
See The Elephant said : Hey Blake! I’m interested in your starling/membership site thing, but I’ve never heard of Memberful and I don’t know anything about it and can’t find any reviews, so I feel a little hesitant about giving it my CC info.
Blake’s response: Hi See The Elephant! OK, first of all Memberful is not the one doing the payment processing or storing of your credit card data. This is handled by the payment processor Stripe. They would be the company that you would want to research. I have researched them and I think they compare very favorably to Paypal. Memberful chose them as their payment processor, which is actually one of the reasons I decided to use Memberful to provide the functionality for subscriptions to Stellar Maze.
You can read here that Memberful does not handle sensitive credit card information and that they chose Stripe for that.
So, neither Stellar Maze, nor Memberful, have access to your credit card information. It is the same with Paypal. When a person donates or purchases a consultation from me using Paypal, I do not know their credit card information, nor, to be honest, do I want to. It is a big responsibility to store that information securely and these big payment processors have to have the best security around.
So, just for the record, I do trust both Stripe and Paypal for the secure handling of credit card data. And so do many other people.
I hadn’t heard of Stripe until recently, but, all the research I did seems to point to them being at least as trustworthy as Paypal, if not moreso.
@Blake – perfect. Thanks for clarifying.
No problem 🙂
Ok full disclosure, I’m indulging in a little devil’s advocate behavior. Apologies in advance…
After reading Blake’s post, reading the comments section (whoa, so mind-blowing), then reading Blake’s post again, there seems to me to be a disconnect between Te with the benefit of latent Ni that INFJs and INTJs have, and simple Te that other types use without running everything effortlessly through Ni. At least, that is the disconnect that I see between Blake’s thoughts/advice and some of the thoughtful musings in the comments. These are two very different Te(s). Ni is the most important thing, yet it seems sort-of overlooked. It’s as if it’s just there, so we can ignore it, like the nice person that always shows up for you so after awhile you take their presence for granted, however unaware. And it seems as though INFJs take Ni for granted more than INTJs do. Or, if they’re not overtly taking it for granted, their definitely QUESTIONING its validity, constantly, I suppose due to tertiary Ti, which by nature, questions everything. And I don’t think dominant Ni likes to be questioned, or rather, it seems to ever-so-coolly ignore the questioning, because it knows its place as King of the Motherfucking Mountain in both of these types, and it knows its a gift to whomever is lucky enough to have it. So it’s kind of a self-imposed backlash with Ni-Ti. Ti wants Ni to make SENSE, and wants everything Ni just knows to make SENSE; and Ni looks up, yawns, and goes back to napping, because well, Ni is totally above the law, and its knows it.
Dominant Ni is like a honey badger—it takes what it wants. Google “mentalfloss honey badger” and tell me that isn’t Ni. Honey badgers don’t give a rats ass what they know, what they find, and whether or not you like it. So, if you’re dominant Ni, that’s who you are, like it or not, it’s up to you (but not really at all). So being someone that doesn’t care whether or not you can figure yourself out is kinda tricky when paired with Ti, who for the love of everything NEEDS all things to make sense, especially at the root of everything–one’s own self. So the frustration of the needs of Ti vs. the autonomy and overall devil-may-care-intelligence of Ni is expressed through Fe and it’s pretty dark. But this, in my opinion, isn’t caused by Fi, Fe, Ti, Se, Si, Ne….nope…it’s caused by Ni being interrogated…and not MFing liking it. Ni’s like, “don’t you get me by now?”
Flip side is the INTJ. Everything in life is presented through Ni, just the same as INFJ, but it siphons down to Fi. The Fi function is domineering in it’s authenticity. It is what it is, it is self-affirming and it’s Fi’s way or the highway. Go find an ISFP and ask them if they think they are attractive?, talented?, artistic?, and have a gift they are freely bestowing unto the world, you’re so welcome, btfw? I bet every dominant Fi (feeling/perceiving) would say “ummm, obviously I am on all counts, and you’re so welcome, btfw.” But, most importantly, Fi seeks stalwart loyalty and validation of intentions that only has to make sense to Fi. It in no way has to make sense to other people, and it will not make a case for itself, because why the fuck would it ever bother to do that, thankyouverymuchforasking?
So Ni strokes tertiary Fi right—Ni is a special gift, and Fi loves to be the one with the special gift. Then Fi says, “Thanks Ni, for validating me. I know you’re always spot-on, and I don’t need to justify you or explain you to anyone else. If someone looks at me weird, or questions me, or not-so-secretly wonders how I know what I know, that’s their fucking problem. I love you, Ni, thanks for keeping it real.” And with that, INTJs present their self-proclamations that have subsequently been self-validated as, “Thanks for playing, everyone else. This is what works. ” And they do this, generally, in a cool, calm, collected, and yes, organized fashion, because they’ve gotten the answer from Ni and the self-affirmation from Fi and they simply act through Te. But to them, the action is just happenstance. In their minds, it’s already done (which is why they come across like people who live alone on their own islands–and love it).
So it may be easier for INFJs to contemplate using Te at will (then discarding it when you’re finished) if it’s done keeping Ni at the forefront of the mind’s eye, and not skipping over it like the girl next door for other sexier, more complicated pursuits (like Ti and/or Fi). INFJs get very nervous about using any function regularly that will make any demands on the endless scope of their fascinating minds and creativity. And they should get nervous about anything could jeopardize them to the core–however that is NOT caused by dabbling in Te within the context of dominant Ni. Ni-Te is pointed toward the outside world just like Ni-Fe is. They are both concerned with leaving their own, individualistic, tantalizing mark on the world; as Blake said in some earlier post, “in different ways and for different reasons, they end up in the same place.” Even the most talented artists have to meet deadlines. Imagine if Kurt Cobain, Jackson Browne, Bob Dylan, Tom Petty and Neil Young had all said to themselves, “fuck all those lyrics and chords running through my head, it’s to much of an imposition on my creativity to write them down.” And then, imagine if they had written them down, but then thought, “the idea of showing up at a recording studio at a certain time on a certain day and playing tracks over and over again until some douche record executive is happy with the cut is kinda gonna ruin my chi. And don’t even get me started about how much I hate doing press. I guess I’ll just sit on all these songs, keep them in a box, someone can read them when I die, if they even care.”
Nope, they all used a little Te (and probably hated it) to get their incredible art into the world. And, they got to manhandle every interviewer they came across (mentally, that is) for bonus points. So, I dunno, Te isn’t such a horrible thing, but I’m a little biased, LOVING all those guys.
Blake, I’m on my way over to sign up for your Starling blog. So cool you’re throwing down with that project. Your insights and the discussions that ensue from them are reasonably incredible. Does this make your members Agent Starlings? So would that make you….yeah, nevermind 🙂
In other words “just do it”. I love how parental this sounds. It reminds me of telling my kids to clean their rooms and they being teenagers, give me every excuse under the sun on why they should not have to clean their rooms. They should not have to be bothered with such insignificant things as cleaning their rooms. Te is the parent of cognitive functions.
And does that mean that the ALL knowing Ni is just the bratty teenager of cognitive functions………….oh my god, that is truer than I’d like to openly admit. Well, I did get called that by many when I was younger. Some adults really do not like to be told the cold hard truth by a child.
🙂 Yes, Michelle, I think you’re right on all counts all though I’ve never thought of Te and Ni in that way (but I don’t have kids so that’s probably why). Ni is the teenager that is both warm and icy in its interpretations, coupled with using the truth as a weapon with reckless abandonment just for irony and poignancy. Yeah, pretty much a bratty teenager.
So, I think for INTJs Te is the manifestor. Ni knows, sees, takes, etc, Fi gets the validation from Ni it needs, Fi TRUSTS what Ni is telling it without question, so then, the action/decision/whatever is complete. The rest of the world sees everything an INTJ thinks and feels THROUGH the use of Te–the manifestation, which, again, comes across as so frickin decisive and somewhat “already over”, because it basically is. An INTJ is content to leave the room with everyone else in some state of abject confusion after he’s said or done something….because, well, the others will just have to wait and see, won’t they? They’re so stoic in their conclusions, it takes some groundbreaking new information/perspectives to move them, which they’re happy to do (but it better be good stuff, or they’re liable to look up 10 minutes into a conversation and say “Oh, I’m sorry, are you still here?”) But other than that, Ni-Te is The Big Show for an INTJ. It’s the manifestation of the destination that their Ni intelligence and Fi authentic convictions have concluded is the best course of action.
For INFJs, using Te I think is (or should be) more like the vehicle that gets you to The Big Show, not the Big Show itself. Ni sends reams of unadulterated conclusions and feelings to Ti, which Ti then questions/analyzes, because that’s what Ti does. I think it’s super bad to try to stop that, Ni needs a personal-schematic-value-system to interpret its massive amounts of data; and auxiliary Fe appreciates the filter of Ti.
Otherwise, INFJs would be some mutant of an INFJ (Ni-Fe-Ti-Se) and an ENFJ (Fe-Ni-Se-Ti). The ENFJ can go all willy-nilly with their feelings and the feelings of others and really put them selves into the world, no filter, then can click into auxiliary Ni to feel out the situation and hone data after-the-fact. And with Se as their tertiary they can just find a happy hour and not deal with things right now if they don’t feel like it (seriously, must be nice). They can turn off Ni and easily go to Se if their feelings are out in the world and getting trounced. INFJs and INTJs absolutely cannot do that, and even tertiary Ti won’t be able to figure out a way. But dominant Ni is quite a spectacular trade off, even if it doesn’t come with an in-case-of-emergency “Off” switch, so how does an INFJ work within their schematic and use Te without compromising their core, and their core’s core (and without the inevitable DON’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO MOM/DAD!!!! that comes with any parental figure)? I think (think) this was the basis of Blake’s post…
The black car. You ain’t getting to The Big Show without it. So, Ni is who Ni is, Ti questions things, hones things, validates and works the puzzle of Ni, and it’s manifested through….Fe. WAIT WTF.
Ni-Fe has to be the manifestor of an INFJ’s Ni intelligence and Ti convictions/analysis that have brought the INFJ to some conclusion that they feel is the best course of action. Te is just the black car that picks up Ni-Ti from the private airport where Ni-Ti obviously lands (obviously), and literally takes them to the arena, where Ni-Fe manifests. And just like the black car is gonna take you wherever you want to go, so is Te for an INFJ. And just like the artist ditches the car at the back entrance and heads toward the stage to do his/her thing for the crowd, so does Fe. The black car does not follow the artist onto the stage. The car is never mentioned (not even in the liner notes). Not the car’s credit to have. An integral part of the process? Yes. A defining part of the process? No. If Ni-Ti have formed a symbiotic relationship that allows Fe into the spotlight…well, no one in the crowd ever wonders (or cares) how the band physically got to the stage, if you know what I mean.
Ok, yeah, I’m still thinking out loud here….yes, Te is the parent, driving their teenager to some school event—a parentally driven vehicle for the child, in a way. But, maybe there shouldn’t be a parent/child attachment with an INFJ using Te, which is why forwhateverreason I used the black car thing, I think. The difference is unlike a parental moment (like driving you’re kid to the event whilst going over rules, curfews, etiquette, more rules, changing the curfew to 1/2 hour earlier, changing the curfew to an hour earlier, etc.), then ultimately a little sadness when you watch your child walk walk away from the car, and cry all the way home (my mother, at least) Te for INFJ should be more of an autonomous vehicle. No emotional attachments, no expectations, no demands, no judgments, just a sexy black car to get Ni-Ti where it’s deemed it wants to go. So parent Te at best should be a super, liberal, hipster that takes you to summer festivals, doesn’t care if you smoke weed occasionally, lets you switch your college major 147 times, and totally trusts your judgement, or something like that 🙂
I remember an INTJ telling me “just do it” when I was struggling with a project. Just that simple.
Niki
To borrow someone else’s phrase “that’s like a spider on acid” but in a word, yes…….
I’ll have to read this, oh I don’t know, like a couple of hundred times, but my first intuitive impression is “true dat”. My 17 year old would die if he knew I just used the phrase “true dat” lol!!!
And lucky ENFJ’s to turn off their Ni. Just occasionally. Although, sounds a little scary too. I sometimes wonder what it would be like to be able to accept things at face value. Simple I would think, but simple mindedness makes me cringe.
Read it again and that is quite an interesting web you’ve got going on. Thanks for sharing.
Niki just got your post from 12:19.
Wow I want a Te mom like that ????. Yeah, I get what you’re saying. Te needs to be parental but free range parenting. Lots of space.
The thing you wrote about the intj using fi to validate Ni with complete trust is so interesting for me. That sounds amazing. I’m not sure I know any intj’s but I always think of Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory and I can totally see where you’re coming from. I sometimes wonder if infj’s have any trust for the other functions.
I don’t know if I think of Ti as constantly questioning Ni. That seems more like the opposite Ne. If Ne is any and all possibilities, then I feel like the questioning or doubt that it creates feels more like Ne interference. I always think of Ti as factional proof for my Ni. I live with 2 isfj’s and they have inferior Ne. I’ll use my daughter as an example, I can ask her not to do something and sometimes she will continually ask, “can I do it if this happens or what if that happens or what if this person does this, what if that person does that” can I do it then. It can be very hard for her to accept the boundary because she gets overwhelmed by so many (what I perceive as) Ne possibilities. No one really talks about Ne’s effect on an infj. I think that Ne creates doubt in my Ni knowing and then that triggers my need to indulge Ti for proof. Ti facts always feels like validation for my Ni. Then if everything is in balance (not getting caught up in Ni-Ti loop) Te can step in and drive us to the Fe manifestation. I don’t know, I’m thinking out loud too.
Still thinking here. If fi validates Ni in an intj and Ti is factual proof for Ni in an infj, then Ni and Ti can learn to trust each other. Right? So the dominant and tertiary can act as a unifying process in both types using different functions.
Apparently my mind is not going to shut down anytime soon and I could do all this thinking in my head but what fun would that be. In an earlier post I used my isfj daughter as example of Ne inferior function. If I give her a black and white boundary she can sometimes get lost in possibilities of when the boundary could change. This is an innocent questioning. She’s not trying to find a way to rebel. But for me, Ne possibilities equal doubt. Sometimes my daughter’s questions will trigger doubt in me. I’m wondering if anyone else has this experience with doubt. If so, is it an internal Ne thing or is it brought on by someone externally questioning you. I get that being a Ni dominant that people are going to doubt me when I give an answer based on just knowing something. But maybe that’s exactly what I’m saying. Other people questioning my Ni creates doubt and if I don’t have my Ti proof then I get really upset and have to go to bed and do some serious Fi crying. (Insert crying emoji here). Lol!! I guess what I really want to know is how do you all handle other people’s doubt. And do you have any nurturing ways of helping someone who gets caught up in a Ne inferior function? What could help someone transition out of this. I’d love to hear your opinions on this.
Michelle, Wow! I need to re-read all your insights about 177 times too to fully process 🙂 but my first thoughts are yes! absolutely Ti needs to trust Ni in an INFJ like Fi trusts Ni in an INTJ, and it can happen flawlessly. The way I figured out how tertiary Fi (which I never really liked) interacted in a positive way with Ni was basically to read about the personality types that use Fi as their dominant process (like ISFPs). Since Ni is, by definition, a constant, and I realized I didn’t analyze through Te, but only acted through Te, I needed to figure out Fi, and what it needed, basically, to calm down and shut up. And I think you are so on-point about doubts brought on by Ti (but I need to seriously curl up reading what you said about Ne, Ti, etc, all night, it’s so fascinating). The most unnerving emotion for an INTJ is Ti (at least this INTJ). If I’m in Ti, questioning, doubting….because it’s so personal and, due to Ni…it’s inevitable that it could become a referendum on everything Ni knows, which is, the core of myself. And that’s very unstable. But an INTJ’s Ti is like what?, 6th position?… so they do well to get out of that space as quickly as humanly possible. But, INFJ, it’s 3rd function, the function of rest as self-validation, so it shouldn’t be ignored (and probably can’t so why try?). So what strokes Ti? What are the things Ti really needs (and wants)? How does an INFJ use their Dom Ni to give their tertiary Ti what it wants, to free the space and ACT through Fe (using Te if necessary as the vehicle). And what does Ti need after the action of Fe to validate that Fe did the right thing? (INTJs go though this with their respective top 3 functions too). That probably looks a little different to every INFJ, but that’s OK, because Ni is an infinite well of insights and knowledge and ANSWERS and it is, at the end of the day, always there. I think figuring out your tertiary’s desires, and then giving into them, is kind of unlocking a Pandora’s Box, but anyone with dominant Ni has the tools at their disposal, whatever those tools look like to each individual, because dom Ni IS Pandora’s Box, and of course, knows it. Ok…I’m gonna go back and read your post again. This is such a freakin fascinating conversation 🙂 🙂
Ok, hang with me on this. I’m going to put everything we’ve said aside and come from a different perspective. Then see how things look.
I’m going to start at the beginning which as an infj we would think the beginning would be Ni, but I have to start with my inferior function Se. Se is how I bring in information. Without Se my Ni would have nothing to process. Se is like a vacuum for my environment. It sucks up everything. Color, sound, smell, energy, feelings,thoughts everything. If we could pause time Se would make a room empty to me because it would suck everything up. When Blake talked about infj’s having active introjections, that equals Se to me. This Se process is why infj’s are so sensitive. There is no filter between us and our environment.
Whatever or maybe I should say EVERYTHING gets internalized and fed to Ni. Ni then starts to process all of this and form impressions. In an earlier post I said I would like to be able to turn off my Ni occasionally, Now that I think about it, it’s not Ni I would like to shut down its Se……. As Ni is processing it’s telling me about the people in the environment(Fe?). I think this is an automatic process for Fe to be involved. It seems like my Ni impressions are always about other people if they are in the environment. If I’m alone then I kinda feel like my Fi and Ti (my personal feelings and thoughts ) are processed through Ni. I’m going to share a personal story to give an example of how this looks in real life. I have a social worker friend who was trying to help me find the right school placement for my daughter. My friend suggested a certain school and immediately I intuitively knew it was not the right school (Ni). I don’t know why or how I knew I just knew (Ni). When I started to explain that even though I knew nothing about this school it didn’t seem right. My social worker friend didn’t understand why I was dismissing her suggestion (her perception) without even researching it. My Se then sucked up all her emotions ( most of them negative in some way) and my Ni/fe told me to go along with her and research this school to accommodate (fe) her feelings. Long story short, the school was not the right fit and we both moved on. This scenario gets repeated with me constantly because of Fe’s need to accommodate. Now if I had stuck with my Ni impression and extroverted my Ni truth, I could have been perceived as a bratty know-it-all teenager (Ni working through Te? Ni cant extrovert anything). I’m guessing an intj in that situation would have just stuck with their Ni truth and not worried about how the social worker friend felt. As an infj, if I had dismissed my friends feelings and stuck with my truth I would have internalized all of her emotions and my Fi would have been activated. Also, her doubts in my Ni truth activated my Ne doubts of, maybe she’s right, I don’t know anything about this school. Maybe I’m being unreasonable or close minded or rude and dismissive etc. etc.etc. That Ne activation would also activate my Fi id and I would have internally, to myself, become the worst human in existence (Fi id). But, I decided to use my Ti and investigate the school. What my Ti did through the research was quiet my Ne doubt and validate my Ni knowing. I was then able to express(fe) my Ti findings, proving to my friend that my original truth(Ni) was accurate. And I did all this without getting sucked in Fi. Which I never want to happen (it’s no fun in there). I guess I could also say that Te was activated in the process because I had to schedule meetings and meet deadlines for paperwork. Wow. That is probably more information than you would ever want to know about how my brain works. If I can keep the right amount of each function it works beautifully. I will say this though, I very much wish I lived in a world where my Ni was valued for the gift it is instead of always having to prove its worth.
I’m baaaack. Not only are you all learning more about me than you would ever want to know,we are also learning that one post is never enough for me.
Niki, I was thinking about what you said about Ti’s (tertiary for infj) need to be satisfied. How to make it stop asking questions I think is what you said. Or maybe you said how does Ni satisfy Ti questions. To me that doesn’t seem to connect. I don’t think Ti questions Ni and I don’t think Ni questions Ti. Internally, I trust Ni. I know it’s real and I know from personal experience it’s right almost all of the time. So I don’t have an internal need (Ti) to question it. I think the need is triggered from outside doubt (Ne?) taken in through Se and activating Ti to prove Ni correct. I guess, because everything gets processed through Ni that I can connect Ni as the activator of Ti, but it feels like the root of questioning starts with Ne activation brought on by outside doubt. So for an intj, Ne activates Fi. The best way I understand Fi is it searches its own structure for similarities going on in its environment. Once it locates a similar experience it analyzes the feelings that goes with that experience and then applies it to the current situation. So Fi needs time to analyze Fe works in real time because it doesn’t need to search it own structure. So Fi dominant infp needs to take time to go inside their head and analyze a situation and then come back out and talk about their personal truth. So the question is are you somehow getting caught up in a Ne/ Fi loop??? Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you were saying. Fi is hard for me to indulge in and not get sucked down. I have developed it enough I can use it to connect past and present but I have to be very careful or it becomes detrimental quickly. Do you feel like the need to question is because you’re doubting your feelings (Fi)? Or are you just talking in general terms of functions not necessarily connected to a personal struggle you are having?…. After I thought about it, if intj’s do get caught up in a Ne/Fi loop of questioning (infj loop would be (Ne/Ti loop questioning) then maybe the answer might be to mix in Fe superego (fe to me is nurturing parent) in a small dose, just like infj’s need a touch of Te (disciplinarian parent) to stay on track. Fe nurturing parent can provide compassion to Fi feelings?? I don’t know. I feel like I’m way outside the box on some of this but it feels right to me.
No not Fe nurturing your intj Fi but nurturing Te so intj’s can accommodate other people into their life. Fi is internal emotions and if outside doubt creates Ne questions then Fi is going to have an emotional reaction to that doubt. Fe can then be used to softened cold hard fact loving Te to accommodate their own Fi feelings. Maybe Fe is not about accommodating other people’s feelings it’s about accommodating one’s own feelings. Ooo that’s good. I like that. When we learn to accommodate our own feelings we automatically learn to accommodate others into our life. I think that’s just a human thing not a type thing.
Michelle, your insights on your daughter and the school-decision situation are really incredible. I have a best friend for years that’s an ISFJ, and I can completely empathize with dom Ni’s interpretation of ISFJ doubt within the context of an Ne sea of possibilities. And, again, I had actually never thought about it that way, or Ne in general at all. You’re so right, why don’t we ever talk about Ne? It’s in INTJ/INFJ function stack in 5th position, right behind Se. Which is kind of important, because those two functions are both pointed outward toward the world and are overly sensitive in these types because of their somewhat inferior positions. They are not well-developed. We do not want to draw a bath full of Se/Ne and soak for a while.
If Se is super sensitive, this would make Ne beyond-the-pail sensitive, causing a one-two punch of sensory overload and intuition overload, which undermines the tertiary function and ultimately undermines our entire premises of being–dom Ni, and all this frustration comes out in the auxiliary function (Fe/Te) and goes BOOM.
And the thing is, we don’t need it. We don’t need the any answers from either of these functions. Because, as you said, they really only produce doubt. Questions and more questions. Sure, they have their place in our emotional makeup, but since dom Ni is the proverbial honey badger, why would it ever look to Se/Ne for anything? That’s like a honey badger asking a ferret to help it find food. FAIL. Honey badgers eat ferrets for breakfast, ferrets ARE the food (sorry, ferrets). And yet it seems to happen, the dragging into Se/Ne, and this dive into the underworld of the INFJ/INTJ makeup only opens the floodgates to the even lesser functions of Fi-Te-Si for INFJs and Ti-Fe-Si for INTJs. Ugh.
So, you noticed that I had resisted my dom Ni-tertiary Fi loop, and that that sort of caused a Ni-Fi loop in in of itself. Yup, exactly. I hated Fi. In this world of Te action, Fi was like, the whiny 4-year old I was dragging around. And it had NEEDS. And they were all subjective. Non-quantifiable. And I didn’t like it. But, just like anything, the more you ignore it, the more pervasive it seems to get (well, if you’re a dom Ni, anyway). It’s like, “there’s a lesson here, better figure it out.” And skipping over Fi to figure out Fi only left me with my next source of internal processing—Ti, my 6th function, which equaled a crescendo of bullshit, because Ti questioned Fi which questioned Ni which laughed in my face and watched me exhaust myself and was basically like, “lemme know when you’re done with all this bullshit. I’ve got new and interesting insights for you when you’re done wasting your time.” (For an INFJ, I assume the math would look like: trying to ignore Ti, invariably ending up in 6th position Fi for processing, Fi undermining Ti, which undermines Ni, who laughs, etc. etc.)
So, it seems like a natural thing to make nicey-nice with your tertiary function (unless someone has a better idea and trust me I’m all ears). It’s the internal processor by which Ni’s omniscience is filtered through action into the outside world (through the externally focused auxiliary functions of these two types). But researching the Ti cognitive processes is an integral part of figuring out how Ti can get what it needs for validation by looking back UP the function stack to Ni, and not going down to Se/Ne for affirmation and validation. Which it won’t get there, so it’ll continue down to the lower functions….etc.
Learning about Fi as a cognitive process meant studying the ISFP. They are the personification of Fi. It’s their dom process, followed by Se, super sensitive for the INTJ. There is no filter of Ni in an ISFP, it’s their tertiary, so their Fi is unadulterated. So, I learned what ISFPs want/need for their cognitive process to be well-adjusted individuals, and figured out how to frame my dom Ni in a way that speaks to my Fi. That way, I’m *less* susceptible to deep diving into Se/Ne (thanks so much for pointing out Ne!) and the horrible undeveloped functions beyond. I look up to Ni, instead of down to Se/Ne, to get my affirmation and validation. I’d imagine, for an INFJ, studying the ISTP would have the same informational value in order to understand the cognitive process of Ti, and relate that to their tertiary Ti, and how it can best get along with their dom Ni.
You hit it spot on with the uncomfortableness of Se and how that ensues so much doubt in what would otherwise be the unadulterated right/acceptable/correct thing to do. It’s like the slightest look or eye shift or whatevertheF from the outside world can send tertiary Ti or Fi running to the hills of self doubt. If Se isn’t nipped in the bud, and one doesn’t revert back to dom Ni (where the answer is anyway), well, the only other direction is down, baby down. Not. Good.
And this just kills me….’Maybe Fe is not about accommodating other people’s feelings it’s about accommodating one’s own feelings. Ooo that’s good. I like that. When we learn to accommodate our own feelings we automatically learn to accommodate others into our life. I think that’s just a human thing not a type thing.’
You couldn’t have nailed it down better. The whole decision making process of choosing your daughter’s school, and KNOWING that your friend meant well but also that that school wasn’t the right choice….but then feeling obligated to somehow frame this dom Ni knowledge into an Se presentation that the rest of the world can understand…..yes, that’s exhausting. It doesn’t seem like it’s enough to simply say, “I just know and don’t ask me how and I’m sorry if you don’t get it but this just is.” Nope, the rest of the world (and it is about 70% sensors) demands some kind of like, hard evidence. Which, one feels obligated to give if it’s for the betterment of the group.
As you so poignantly said, when figuring out just exactly who Fe is obliged to include in its group (and therefore go above and beyond for), make sure you are including yourself as one of the top brass. Te doesn’t have such a hard time doing this, but INTJs do feel just the same need to not overtly alienate people, especially if said person is our friend who may think they are doing us a favor. They don’t want to trounce all over people’s feelings, because dom Ni is like, “you’re smart enough to find a better way.” Yes, it’s a tough line to draw. Time and emotional resources are an asset, and staying stoic in what Ni knows is the best way I’ve found to preserve those assets for myself and the people who I WANT to go above and beyond for. Otherwise, it’s like a shell game and I’m always the damn loser. I have some insights that I’m forming about your ISFJ daughters process (and my friend’s process, now that the wheels are turning here) but I’m like not shifting very well into actually putting into a discernible format right now so I’ll do it in another post when my mind clears 🙂
*and by “overtly alienate people” I mean, a perceived alienation on the part of our friend or person who is *trying* to help us. Again, Se/Ne picking up on the slightest little thing that leads us to believe someone is *perceiving* that we aren’t listening to them, or we aren’t valuing their advice or guidance, when really, we appreciate the help, but also still somehow want to reserve the right to listen to our dom Ni (instead of THEM) to make the decision. Always stressful unless there’s undying “I have dom Ni and I’m using it!” stubbornness, which of course, comes across as well, stubborn, but you know, I’m not the first stubborn person that I’ve met, and I probably won’t be the last, so I’ll use my stubbornness when I see fit in those situations 🙂
This is a fascinating discussion, people! Right in my area of interest, as I’ve been intrigued by the lower functions in the typological stack for many years.
Let’s talk about INFJ’s Ne for now:
It took me a very long time to even be able to discern this process in myself. And what I saw wasn’t very nice.
Sometimes my Ne is activated when I’ve been forced to overuse inferior Se for an extended period. At some point, Se shuts down completely and Ne is triggered in its place. My brain then flips into a state of hypermanic overdrive. My usual decisiveness is replaced by a complete inability to choose between a thousand different options. I can no longer focus on anything and become scattered and confused. I completely lose track of time and am late for everything. I imagine this must be what ADHD feels like!
Fortunately, the previous state only happens to me on rare occasions.
I’ve also become aware that I sometimes use Ne in a more focussed, oppositional mode. This is best described as passive-aggressively shooting down other people’s ideas. It’s basically a version of the classic “Why Don’t You?/Yes But?” game:
“What if you did this?”
“That will fail because….”
“How about this idea?”
“I’ve already ruled that out for the following reasons….”
“I know! Why don’t you……?”
“Don’t be absurd!”
“You are so negative! I’m only trying to help”
“Please go away!”
Etc. etc ad nauseum….
Whilst I fully appreciate the power and value of Ne in theory (I have an ENTP partner and many ENFP friends) – I would rather be elsewhere when there is a lot of Ne-ing going on around me (another planet would be just fine!). Unless I’m in a very positive place, mentally and emotionally, Ne usually irritates the crap out of me.
I know that my issues with this function are quite irrational and completely out of proportion, but let’s face it, fellow INJ’s, Ne is supremely annoying in so many, many different ways. I have prepared a helpful table to explain why Ne irks me so much:
Perceived Ne Activity: How Ni sees this:
Brainstorming OK at first, but soon degenerates into a pointless spew-fest
of stupid ideas and ludicrous “What-if’s”.
Networking A bunch of over-caffeinated extraverts producing enough
noise to shatter glass.
Exploring options Please, please, please make a decision before I lose the will to
live!
Speculating about the future Paranoid worrying about worst-case scenarios.
For God’s sake: are we really likely to be eaten by a shark at
the beach or drowned in a tsunami?
Asking lots of questions Generating doubt where once there was certainty.
Revisiting decisions The Ninth Circle of Hell.
“I’ve already packed the bags, booked the hotel, stopped the
mail and arranged for a cat-sitter, and now you tell me you’ve
changed your mind and don’t want to go???!!!!!”
Feel free to add your own personal grievances to my list!
Table didn’t format properly, so I’ve rewritten it as a list:
Perceived Ne Activity:
Brainstorming
How Ni sees this:
OK at first, but soon degenerates into a pointless spew-fest
of stupid ideas and ludicrous “What-if’s”.
Perceived Ne Activity:
Networking
How Ni sees this:
A bunch of over-caffeinated extraverts producing enough noise to shatter glass.
Perceived Ne Activity:
Exploring options.
How Ni sees this:
Please, please, please make a decision before I lose the will to
live!
Perceived Ne Activity:
Speculating about the future.
How Ni sees this:
Paranoid worrying about worst-case scenarios. For God’s sake: are we really likely to be eaten
by a shark at the beach or drowned in a tsunami?
Perceived Ne Activity:
Asking lots of questions.
How Ni sees this:
Generating doubt where once there was certainty.
Perceived Ne Activity:
Revisiting decisions.
How Ni sees this:
The Ninth Circle of Hell.
“Arghhh!!!!! I’ve already packed the bags, booked the hotel, stopped the mail and arranged
for a cat-sitter; and now you tell me you’ve changed your mind and don’t want to go???!!!!!”
Fantastic discussion. So many delicious new ideas to contemplate!
Niki “For INFJs, using Te I think is (or should be) more like the vehicle that gets you to The Big Show, not the Big Show itself.” Yes. I think you’re really onto something here. You’ve got me thinking about the way I actively use Te to shift between states.
When I’m stuck in Fi it goes without saying that I need to get back into Fe to restore my equilibrium, but I can almost never switch straight from Fi to Fe. To stick with the transport theme Te is my ferry from one bank to another (love your sleek RR, but a mundane little ferry works better for this analogy).
So I’m floundering and physically shut down in an Fi funk, and reach that natural point where I’m screaming to myself “I cannot BEAR this for one more minute”. At that point I (Ni) have only the haziest conception of what being back in Fe would feel like; it’s as if I’m stranded far away from my homeland unconvinced I’ll ever see again. So I summon my Te ferry. I get on board thoroughly miserable and unable to see the other shore, but as the journey progresses the fog begins to lift and with it hope begins to rise.
In practice, Te will probably say something like “Come on, get off the sofa, have a bath, get some groceries in and let’s take it from there. You can do this. I know it feels overwhelming but you only have to take it one step at a time.” Over the years Te has become much less critical and dictatorial with me, much closer to the attentive but laid-back parent you describe. Te prompts the physical movement, the doing of mundane tasks (particularly mundane tasks that provide visual evidence of getting back on track, like opening the fridge door and seeing it is satisfyingly full), the tackling of niggling issues, that give me the renewed feelings of agency and safety I have to have before I can access Fe.
I’ve had a few lengthy spells where I’ve sunk through Fi into Si and I doubt I can match Blake’s description of the existential hell involved. Te has again been my saviour through a broadly two-step process. First Te will prompt me to start writing. Although I must be using Fe to do so it doesn’t feel like it. It’s a strange, semi-automatic state that I experience very differently from the normal Fe ‘flow’. I don’t feel engaged with what I’m writing and looking back at it I think it’s Te simply getting me moving from a state of catatonia. That movement will typically move me up the ladder to Fi and then Te will eventually kick in again to lead me back to Fe. This process might take weeks or months.
I mentioned before that on a day-to-day basis I also find Te a useful antidote to the Ni-Ti loop. The more I think about it the more vital Te is. It’s like a neurotransmitter transporter. However high our serotonin and dopamine levels they’re useless without their transporters.
I need to ponder more on Te’s role in creating feelings of safety and normality and how/why these are such vital precursors to Fe (for me anyway). Perhaps it’s as simple as applying Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, with Fe equating to self-actualisation….
Stewart, I’m guilty of tending to overlook Ne but working in the corporate world your post did make me smile. Am totally with you on networking. Brainstorming I love, but only when it’s with people who realise that it’s meant to be a focused means to an end not a bloody process in its own right. ISTJs are my personal bête noire at work – the mindless bureaucrats who love their processes so much they cannot see said processes are meant to actually lead to, you know, a result! Couldn’t resist venting.
This is politically incorrect but what the hell. I generally love working with bright ENTPs/ENFPs who realise their divergent thinking has to be corralled at some point, but the dumb ones who keep coming up with the crazy scenarios you describe are a different matter. However, I’ve yet to meet ANY ISTJ who didn’t drive me nuts.
Niki
Thank you for your response. It felt you were very compassionate in your response and I will confess after I posted, I had a huge rush of anxiety. It’s not always easy to be so honest. But I am totally at peace with the conscious decision I made to go through the process with my friend. I have so much I want to write about but I don’t have time right now.
Stewart loved the list. I am so right there with you on every one of those. The emergence of this Ne connection is brand new to me. The other day when I wrote about it, it was an aha moment and I can’t believe I shared it without analyzing it to death. I guess that’s what happens when I get my flow on.
Michelle, I can totally empathize with what you’re saying. We might use different auxiliary processes, but it seems as though we go through very similar stages of emotion/anxiety behind the scenes, so to speak. And don’t worry, every time I hit the *POST COMMENT* button I basically throw up in my mouth just for a second and then have to compose myself. Such is the psyche of people who are so incredible sensitive to other people, and also back toward themselves. Sigh. But, as you said, this is better than the alternative of complete cognitive dissociation of emotions, I do honestly believe. Plus, totally gutsy, and gutsy actions are never bad, I think they wind up soothing the soul more than playing things safe for safe’s sake.
Stewart, YESSSSSSSS, hallelujah, that’s some exacting stuff about Ne! I am very familiar with the Ne process in others who use it like it’s their best damn friend but I never did draw a connection to it in my own process. When I’m around Ne people, it’s basically enough for me to wonder why the hell everything is SO hard, why I am still having this conversation with said person, why we haven’t figured out where to go yet, why we haven’t figured out how to get out of the parking lot yet (if they’re driving, of course), why I’m in the car with them in the first place….and basically continues to go downhill from there except at that point I think I’ve just blacked out from the pain and the possibilities OVERLOAD. It’s basically like, “I don’t think if we go this way or that way in lieu of some other way that we’re actually going to die, but I feel like every second that passes and we’re still having this discussion we are in fact getting closer to grim death.”
And yeah, INxJ’s can use this so passive aggressively out of sheer spite of getting drug through this 18 miles of broken glass that happens with every one of your scenarios. It’s the yes/no/maybe/definitely not/yes/of course in rapid succession that is so jarring. My favorite is, “Would you like to go to dinner?” Sure. “Where.” Don’t care pick a place. *and then every restaurant within 40 miles is apparently not OK for some reason I could have never thought of in a million years.* So yeah, it’s like now I’m not even hungry anymore, thanks. And, heaven forbid a decision is finally made (usually out of brute decisive force) and we get to some actual destination, then there’s a million ways that place could be better, so let’s spend all night brainstorming about that, because that’s really want I wanted to talk about too. OMG just shoot me now.
I think the thing that’s so jarring about it is the lack of resolution/destination. It’s like, 1,000,000 miles on a vehicle that’s spinning in the mud. Or, hitting the 1,000,000 mark then throwing it in reverse and backing up the 1,000,000 miles home.
Yes, thanks Michelle for bringing up Ne again. Awesome flow! I had no idea how much of a sore spot this was for me until you and Stewart started defining it. Now I can work on my anxiety/impatience with it. Any ideas on that? 🙂 Such a great conversation!
The Ghost go Jung posted this the other day on the Got Flow article
You must USE extroverted feeling and never let it USE you, as some of these guides suggest. Be STRONG.
I read this the other day after I posted about working with a social worker friend and investigating a school for my daughter that I knew intuitively wasn’t the right choice. I used that example as a way to show how my functions worked together in a real world situation, but these words have lead me to further explain the situation, with a very human [emotional] slant.
First of I want to say I use the term friend loosely in this scenario because I did not know this person very well and she did not know me. She had made several suggestions to me about other activities that I might be interested in for my daughter. I had said no to them immediately because I knew [Ni] they weren’t right. I could feel her …..confusion, frustration, doubt?…her perception was I was being an askhole [someone who asks for your advice and then doesn’t take it]. Which I wasn’t. I very much wanted her help. When she suggested the school, I immediately thought no that’s not the right school. But, I consciously made the decision to go on this journey with her. I was very honest with her about the fact that I didn’t really feel this was right but I would check into it because she felt strongly about it. I felt if I showed her the trust that I wanted her to have in me, then she would learn to trust my intuition in return. You know, I used my Fe to build a relationship with her instead of just blindly accommodating her and disowning myself [Ni]. When I was younger, that is exactly what I would have done [I would have been so worried that she wouldn’t help me that I would have gone along with her first suggestion]. During this process, there were times I got very frustrated, and thought to myself, “here I am playing someone else’s game. I know this is not the right school” but I stuck with it because intuitively I knew [Ni] something good was going to come out of this effort. I think we also have to look or just trust that our Ni stilled played a part in the decision for me to go down this path. After it was over and my daughter didn’t go to the school, I looked back on it and realized there were so many positives that emerged from that journey. Steve Jobs gave a great commencement speech at Standford, and one of my favorite parts was when he said , you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect the dots by looking back. So true. What I thought was the point of doing this, ended up being something completely different. The point, as I see it now looking back wasn’t about the school or about the relationship with this other person, it was about my daughter. Somethings started to work better for her through this experience. My point of writing this is, if you find yourself on someone else’s roller coaster ride, whether you chose to get on or you blindly followed, you’re on it for a reason. Follow your intuition and when it’s over connect the dots. Use you’re Ni/Fe to make the best of the ride and then look back and marvel at how amazingly well you handled yourself.
Michelle, I must confess, I just went back and read this entire thread again. It’s incredible how it has developed and the insights that have come out of it. I feel like I should just acknowledge that for some reason. I wanted to copy and paste some of the insights and then respond to them with the perspective we have now that this conversation has taken on some new insights and angles, and see how these things feel now.
You said, in response to my theory that an INFJ’s Ti questions dom Ni and sort of creates the Ni-Ti loop of doubt: “Internally, I trust Ni. I know it’s real and I know from personal experience it’s right almost all of the time. So I don’t have an internal need (Ti) to question it. I think the need is triggered from outside doubt (Ne?) taken in through Se and activating Ti to prove Ni correct. I guess, because everything gets processed through Ni that I can connect Ni as the activator of Ti, but it feels like the root of questioning starts with Ne activation brought on by outside doubt. So for an intj, Ne activates Fi. The best way I understand Fi is it searches its own structure for similarities going on in its environment. ”
~~Yes, now that we’ve delved into Ne so much more, and I’ve had time to reflect, Ne through Se probably is the source that triggers Ti doubt and Fi doubt in INFJs & INTJs, respectively. Ni is the activator of the tertiary functions, but the tertiary functions are not the source of questioning to Ni…it’s the lesser-developed functions of sensory-over-sensitivity through 4th function Se, then down to 5th function Ne to drown our otherwise sharp intellect and Ni *knowing* into a sea of possibilities that are rather erroneous and utterly confusing, since Ni has the answer, and the tertiary is more developed, as the 3rd function, to analyze and *connect the dots* from what we know has happened in the past, to what we think (NI knows) will continue to happen in the future. And yes, I can see now how Fi doubts in an INTJ are triggered by Se/Ne (or Ne/Se) and how that starts the domino effect of questioning, either down the ladder to 6th position Ti (ugh) or back up the ladder to Ni, both of which are extremely uncomfortable. I can really relate to this, justincase I didn’t say that very clearly in a previous post. So what I’m wondering is….Does the Ni-Ti and/or Ni-Fi loop (for both types) exist without doubt from Se/Ne?? Like, is Se/Ne the source of alllllllllll the vicious loop problems, when combined with Fi and/or Ti?
“You can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect the dots by looking back. So true. What I thought was the point of doing this, ended up being something completely different. The point, as I see it now looking back wasn’t about the school or about the relationship with this other person, it was about my daughter.”
~~As in, the best way to know and sort of aid our relationships with the people that matter, and what will happen to us and them in the future, and how those future experiences will affect us (other than just straight Ni) is to be able to have experiences that allow you to look back and connect the dots from the past, and, like a calculus algorithm, see where that line is going into perpetuity. And sometimes the line bends. Actually, often times the line bends, which is like going down a path where one knows (Ni) that the end point will not be a “yes” (Fe/Te), and yet, one knows (Ni) that there is something to be learned and associated and maybe even *proved* from the journey (Ti/Fi)—which in in of itself is a positive outcome of some sort—and then that knowledge can be put in the arsenal of our cognitive functions (all of them, each with their own perspective) and pulled out of storage when we need it.
“You know, I used my Fe to build a relationship with her instead of just blindly accommodating her and disowning myself [Ni]. When I was younger, that is exactly what I would have done [I would have been so worried that she wouldn’t help me that I would have gone along with her first suggestion]. ”
~~So, if we learn to use our most comfortable and familiar action function, our auxiliary, in a way that it WORKS for *US* we can effectively build relationships on our terms, while still accommodating other’s feelings/perspectives/needs, AND stay in our own *comfort zone* enough to actually learn from a journey that would otherwise be fruitless due to the fact that we would be so wrapped up in our frustrations from letting someone make us a player in their game, with the trigger of Se/Ne anxiety and expectations.
So, use the function with the most aptitude toward the outside world (Fe for INFJ and Te for INTJ) to build bridges with people the way we each want to build a bridge, that’s personally validating to our tertiary, and even our lower functions beyond that (Fi for INFJ / Ti for INTJ), to be able to have the energy to use our lessor developed function to actually hone and extract data and validate what our Ni knows, for not only for our peace of mind (“yes, I did the right thing/yes, I knew the right thing to do”), but also to benefit our relationships with people we are close to, like our children, and close friends/family. You’re saying, let’s use the power and the empathy of our auxiliary to free up space for our other functions to breathe, and then that will free up space for us to be open to whatever challenges the world brings to our doorstep (Ni) via Se/Ne, and this, by extension, will help us to not get caught up in any loop, whether it’s Ni-Ti, Ni-Fi, or the backward loops that this conversation has sort of flushed out—Ne-Ti and Ne-Fi.
I hope you understand how genius that is.
I feel like I’m brimming with other questions/analogies/thoughts/everything that I can’t focus on just one, so I’ll leave it there to get your perspective on whether or not I’m effectively “getting” what you’re saying…or if I’m missing something super important. Thanks for re-telling your story from a more ” human (emotional)” perspective, it really did mean a lot to see it framed that way and I was able to relate even more 🙂
“Follow your intuition and when it’s over connect the dots. Use you’re Ni/Fe to make the best of the ride and then look back and marvel at how amazingly well you handled yourself.”
Sorry, Michelle, just had to reiterate this one of yours too. I’m like a super fan or something. 🙂
Niki, yes, yes, yes. This is fun!! We are sooooo genius. Lol. Weekends are really busy for me but it gives me lots of time to think. Who knows what we’ll discover next week.
Michelle, this is FUN! Have a great weekend, and happy thinking 🙂
*
Practicing pithiness Miss Asterisk?
Lol no I really wanted to subscribe/receive comments to this article and for some reason it won’t let u do it unless u leave a comment…☺️
This is a different *
*scrunches nose*
Blake Te superego seems virgo like to me. I do have virgo rising which in opposite to my sun in pisces so maybe that has something to do with it. What do you think the Te superego’s astrological sign would be?
Blake when I use emojis on my posts they show up as question marks. Any idea what’s up with that? Also I have a delay on new comments. Sometimes it’s over a day before the new comments appear. And today when I tried to sign into my account my log in info was accepted but then the log in screen popped up again. It only happened on my iPad. Everything was fine when I logged into my computer. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
The Daodejing might exemplify an alternative Ni-Fe path to action, instead of the Te style strategizing that so many INFJs aspire to.
That moment when you’re 15, have no money whatsoever and Blake needs $6 (which costs a lot because you don’t live in the US and your country’s economy is broken) to let you read stuff from your favorite website. Life sucks.
Not really…
But kinda.
Yea it does.
Or when you don’t have a credit card..
I feel you buddy.. :p
But the man’s got to make money somewhere I guess..
@ Nuttins: What country do you live in?
Brazil. If only people had donated…
Blake, I didn’t know INFJs were interesting compared to other types.
In public school, I always felt I didn’t fit in because I didn’t look like the popular rich kids.
I was basically ignored.
Thanks.
Who says rich popular kids are interesting?
So Te is like the sandbox that Fe plays in basically? Or no, Fe is the sand and Te the box?
How do you know when theres TOO MUCH Te and when it overtakes Fe expression? When you suddenly can’t express Fe anymore?
A lot of jobs have no Fe expression at all, but they have very little Te too. Like being a cashier or whatever. You do the same thing over and over and over again, but the most expressive you can get is how many different ways can you say ‘hello’ to the person ya know.
Work in general seems like a cruel irony to an INFJ.
I realize its more of personal thing, but using this guide of Te minimums there must be like some decent jobs out there for INFJ where we won’t lose our mind. Like to me you gotta make living wage, so you need those 40 hrs a week to do it…but whatever you do in those 40 hours is just kind of up to me. But at the same time, I don’t wanna be grinding 9 -5, but if I do I wanna be doing something thats creatively engaging. There aren’t many options man! It’s like a fucking sick world we live in. INFJ’s can easily become work-a-holies, but its not really in the cards for us. This Te minimum thing seems scary accurate and I tend to totally agree, but how the fuck do you actually do this in practical day to day living?
Only jobs in the arts seem to follow this guideline of Te minimum and Fe maximum and those jobs you rarely make living wage or even have steady income. Fuck man, this shit is deadly accurate but also incredibly depressing as fuck.
So Te is like the sandbox that Fe plays in basically? Or no, Fe is the sand and Te the box?
Fe is the entire sandbox and Te is when your mother tells you its time to go home. Or when you develop some method for building really cool sandcastles.
How do you know when theres TOO MUCH Te and when it overtakes Fe expression? When you suddenly can’t express Fe anymore?
You’ll know it be feeling. When you feel like you have hemmed yourself in so much that it is constricting the Fe expression too much. This will feel like you can’t breathe, like when someone has placed a halter on you that is too tight and you can’t move easily in it, or breathe easily, in the case of a corset.
Fe expression feels “joyful” to an INFJ. Expansive. Te feels restrictive. Fe is the gas pedal. Te is the brake. Fe is the motor, Te is the rudder. Direction. Fe is the pilot, Te is the navigator.
I suppose too much Te in the Fe equation will feel like driving with the brake on. Or it will feel like grinding gears. It will hurt. Te is possibly the most painful thing to an INFJ. Too much of it hurts like a motherfucker and makes you want to bash your head against a wall and give up.
So, abide by the concept of MININUMS – the least required amount for any given situation. How do you gauge this in any given situation? I know it sounds trite, but, you do it by feeling.
This means that INFJs have to really clue in to how something is feeling to them. They are not called a type that prefers feeling over thinking for nothing.
The more an INFJ learns to lead out into experience by Fe, the more quickly they will be able to ascertain in any given situation what the appropriate measures of any given factor are.
Fe pretty much comes down to this question – Do I like it?
That is pretty much the guiding question that INFJ should ask as regards pursuing any particular path. It might seem trite, but really what do you really like? Genuinely. Aside from your layers of conditioning. Aside from the “import” of any given thing. Aside from all the reasons.
Fe is really simple in a sense – what makes me feel good? What makes me feel bad?
Maximize the former, minimize the latter.
Hello. I’ve read most of your post on INFJ and I think that they are very accurate for me as an INFJ.
I’m posting comment hoping that I can find solution to my problem. Maybe fellow INFJ can give me some opinions or relevant experience. I don’t know if I can explain it very well because I feel tired using words. I feel tired of explaining at all but I’m gonna try. Also, I’m sorry if my English is not so good.
I am 24 years old and I have been a recluse for almost 2 years now. I don’t work and I don’t go out of my house (my parents’ house. I’ve been leeching of them basically) unless I really need to. I don’t believe that it’s because I’m lazy because I know that when I want something I will go after it. And there are things I want to have and do but I feel very doubtful lately.
I guess what started this situation was depression but after unsuccessful doctor visit I give up going and just felt too comfortable in this situation. I went to 2 psychologist and 1 psychiatrist. and the reason I stopped was because at some point it didn’t help even if the beginning made me feel better. Most of it was also because my sensitive side. I feel like I was more caring than they were. Like, the case with the psychologist I didn’t feel comfortable after some (small) events. the first one yawned at one of the session, the 2nd one made a joke from what I said and the psychiatrist was so busy that I often wait for more than an hour after the appointment time. But during all those times, even though I felt like it wasn’t right, I always ended up feeling/thinking: “this good weather makes people sleepy” ” that joke is normal in this culture ( i was studying abroad)” “the doctor is busy and there are people with worst problems than me”. This is often the case too, when others make me feel bad (intentional or not) I always think (maybe imagined a feeling?) in their position, maybe they have reasons.
I feel like I can deal with the depression on my own now but all my life I always feel somewhat depress anyway. I had bad body image that made me quit a lot of things when I was young and I have no role model to help me with my emotional or mental support. My parents are uncomfortable with emotion. my dad always get angry if anyone cry too much or get too angry. when I had my first break up and cried to him he said something like ” I can’t talk to you anymore, you use to be logical” I was in a way but it was because I kept the emotion to myself. I’ve always write journal and keep a stoic expressionless face to cover my real feeling that I’ve learned as weakness. I felt a lot more than I express. My mom is always in denial. she’s not a housewife but acts like she’s the perfect housewife in front of my dad. Basically she just tries so hard to be the wife she thinks my dad would like. I had a dream that my mom was a business women and was in charge of the house and was going to divorce my dad after she has financial security. I believe that is what will really happen if she was allowed to work and be independent. So I believe that she’s able to fool herself cannot give rel comforting for my problems (like, if I think I’m fat she couldn’t sympathize or empathize)But no one else in the family seems to see what I see nor think that it is a problem. everyone just ignore it and manage to live okay somehow while I can’t “act normal” about it. I don’t do anything about it and just focus on myself. sometimes it comes out when we fight but they never get what i was saying and I always end up feeling like I just spilled a secret to someone I shouldn’t.
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Actually, I feel like this is going to be too long so I’ll just summarize things and hope I pinpoint the problem correctly.
-introverted all my life. Had (still do but feel better and working on it) bad body image that made me quit a lot of stuff and stopped or didn’t try to do the things I love to do such as dance or sport or performing something. It also made me too shy to do anything or make myself heard.
-parents who are not comfortable with emotion. family didn’t help with self image and confidence. often fought with parents because they don’t understand me at all. realized no one can help me. Helped myself. read a bunch of self help books, psychology, positive thinking, spiritual stuff and the likes.
-always interested in other cultures. went to study abroad right after I finished 9th grade. best decision. helped me get over a lot of things and helped me become more social and extroverted I guess. continued study abroad until finish grad school. go back home a couple times. was somewhat extroverted the whole time. I guess I expressed myself well all those times even though a lot of time I still felt “misplaced” perhaps… in combination with bad body image problem so I can’t say I was truly free or completely happy. Also, majored in communication because it was the fastest track and I’ve always hated school. I never fit in there. but I’ve always had friends. for some reason people always look for me and want to be friends with me. went to grad school in linguistic. still hated school but wanted to go abroad again and at the time I went because it was near a close friend. this is 2 years ago.
-for whatever reason, I stopped talking to that friend. I stopped talking to everyone. I just felt sick of people and started this reclusive state. I went back home because of money since I wasn’t able to find a decent job that I feel i could do. I just felt like my bucket was full. i felt like I made myself an extrovert, that I just put on mask, or bottled up everything too much that I felt like I lost who I am, i guess. Enough faking ! that’s how I felt..I guess..
-now 2 years past. I manage to avoid “moving on with life” by avoiding some people and being angry at those who ask my future plan. I feel happy alone but right now i realize I have to start my life because I don’t want to live with my parents anymore. my bucket for my family is full and I think the bucket for the world has space now that I can step out to the world again.
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Now I have to figure out what to do.
1. Although I don’t want to say it but I guess my main problem is finance. I don’t think much about money, I have been blessed that my parents was able to provide for me but other than that, money is a weird concept for me. I feel that money comes and goes and I always felt like “it will work out” so when I make decision I never counted money. I only need enough to get by. even if I don’t have money I still believe that money is not a problem. I’m confusing myself here. this doesn’t look like a question but does anyone else know what I’m talking about with this point?
2. I’m thinking I’m interested in academia. even though I’ve always hated school. I’m thinking about PhD now in intercultural communication and cultural studies. I imagined students consulting with me and interacting with uni students and I feel good about it. But I have a problem talking. an introvert like me who doesn’t talk much, can I do it? often time, with friends, I give up talking too much. i feel like i get the concept but can’t put it out there. so can I become a lecturer?
– in case with talking…expressing myself in general is weird lately… I used to like writing but after writing my thesis (the time depression started, my mind was full of family and past problems that I wasn’t able to focus on anything else) I feel like I can’t express myself through words anymore. recently I like drawing and sometimes I write very short stuff but I just feel words are weird now. what happen?
I’ve always been interested in psychology and I applied for the undergrad study long ago but decided on communication instead because my sister took psychology and I didn’t want to do the same thing. but now I’m thinking should i repeat school? but then again, I don’t know if I want to spend the time and i don’t know if i’m mentally strong enough to deal with patients. but even if i take psychology, i still want to do the research route. I guess, basically academia is less risky (like, if something happens to my patients.)
3. I’m often conflicted.. I want to be ambitious like ” hey I can collect a lot of money” and ” money is not everything. I should get rid as much stuff as i can and live a simple life”. my body…” I feel bad, I want to be skinny. I want to exercise and lose weight” and ” that bad image is because of society. when i look in the mirror I’m not actually that fat and there isn’t an ideal body”. ” i want to have a lot of friends. I want to befriends with all kinds of people in this world. I want to give care and love to all everyone I can” and ” I want to be alone. fuck everyone, why should I care?”
This conflicted feelings and thought also makes me confuse in making decision on what to do next in life. How do I deal with this?
I don’t know if this info counts as anything but I have scorpio in sun, mars, and pluto. i thought it has something to do with my rebellious nature and conflicted feeling/thinking.
I’m scared I’ll just end up killing myself because I’m so confuse and don’t feel like the world is worth living in. i hate the system and how greedy our current world is.
If I have money I’d consult directly with you Blake but I just hope by putting this out there somewhere, something good can come to me.
Sorry it’s long and i know how messy my delivery is but thanks to whoever read and reply.
Thank you very much for posting an incredibly useful article. I struggle a lot at work because of my personality type. I plan to try out your advice on predominantly using Fe from now on, as it makes perfect sense to me. I would like to echo another comment, which is that your INFJ articles are the best I’ve read.
Cool!
Thanks great article i cant believe how well you’ve articulated this thanks very useful
I just read the article about SE minimums for INFPs, and came here to ask ‘INFJ questions’… both about Se and Te minimums.
Do you think it is still beneficial for INFJs to engage in Fe expression with Te minimums, when they already have a lot of Te going on in their lives? *Not trying to make up excuses to avoid the morning pages :,)* I have written every day in the vacation, and it felt fantastic. However, at the moment I have a busy schedule due to my studies, and writing the morning pages is not what it used to be. It feels like one too many obligations, and as though I have less Fe to put out, less inspiration. So I ended up doing it… whenever I want to…
However, another activity that gives me a break from introversion, is actually one you advised to INFPs; dancing, mostly belly dance in my case. I find the effects so positive that I wonder if I’m not INFP after all. However, it does feel like I’m exploring some alter ego when I engage in it (I call her babe in reverse…)
So, my question is if it is balancing for an INFJ to engage in Se physical expression regularly, like an INFP should? Or could it be addicting somehow, to the point that it works at the expense of their Ni, if such thing is possible? I’ve been following an young INFJ coach online, who engages a lot in her Se (and Te), and though she gives very useful and grounding advice, I feel like Ni is not taken into the equation anymore. Maybe for older more grounded INFJs this is a non issue, but for the younger ones an Se versus Ni thing can happen?
I’m a bit late to the party, but I relate so much to this article and approach to life. I need structure but not TOO much structure because then it feels stifling. I can’t keep to a diet, because that is too much, but what works is keeping to set meal times. I eat at 10am, 12pm, 4pm, 7pm, no snacking in between, but what I eat is more or less intuitive. I’ve tried straight abstract painting or drawing, it’s always turned out a mess. But when I create a few pencil lines before hand, and very minimal planning, it works. My job as a behavior analyst has a lot of TE – it’s all about the data, the frequency, the timing. The principles of behavior analysis are defined and organized but I use the principles to in turn be creative with my clients. I’m going to start looking at where my life does not work and see if I can analyze where I’m missing the Te minimum. Thanks Blake!
i’ve been brainstorming about Te minimums for isfj and infj.
Te is a kind of inverse of Fi. So Te (especially dominant Te) is concerned with fairness as a principle “out there”. So the idea that things should be set up fairly. Whether that means you will reward talent (but then anyone talented gets a chance). Or whether it means that we all pitch in an effort with that effort determined by external principle. I want to elaborate on this but my mind is weak.
IFJ not doing Te minimums will not pay attention to whether they are being “fair” in a Te sense. It doesn’t imply they end up being unfair, but the potential is there. But it’s not really how they “calculate” their moves. They calculate their moves by wanting to arrange the pieces of their life the way they want them as well as at times from personal impulse (strong internal feeling impulse even if submerged or unconscious or whatever). There is a strong center of gravity to their life. It’s THEIR life.
This leads to a lot of ifjs looking very human, a constant river of impulses. Who with the aid of Ti can engineer solutions based on Fi core. Who can rationalize their preferences. Engineering and rationalizing rather than recognizing a principle to follow or set free “out there”.
writing all this helps me to see my weak Te (inferior).
the inferior is so external….
you see the inferior function everywhere. you VALUE it.
you want it. you aspire to it. you suck at it.