Function Abbreviations used in this article:
- Fi = Introverted Feeling
- Fe = Extraverted Feeling
- Ni = Introverted Intuition
- Si = Introverted Sensation
Many people seem to be under the assumption that Fi is not an important function for INFJs. The reason for this is because of the Myers-Briggs type code convention, which has Fe as the preferred form of feeling for INFJs. While it may be their preferred form of feeling, it doesn’t mean that the INFJ personality type is not greatly affected by Fi. Fi is not accounted for in the INFJ because of the concept of the function stack that only takes into account four of the eight possible functions. What happened to the other four? I seek to address how Fi manifests in the INFJ in this article by discussing INFJ behavior that can only be typified by Fi and by citing a few examples of famous INFJ characters from fiction.
INFJs are commonly described as having a special capacity to read people being able to see into the deepest recesses of their character to decipher their motivations. The INFJ is frequently described as empathetic, which means they have the ability to inhabit another person’s emotional being and know what they are feeling, even if this other person gives no visible outward signs of these feelings.
These abilities could be partly ascribed to the dominant Ni process of the INFJ type, and it is true that it does have a part in this, but this ability of the INFJ to read into a person’s inner nature is Fi in nature too.
Fi assumes the position of the id function in an INFJ. The id function represents a process that is strong but regressive in nature. INFJs are very strong in Fi but it threatens to pull them back into a state of infancy.
A very instructive example of the INFJ caught in a regressive Fi down spiral is illustrated in a literary work by Fyodor Dostoevsky called Crime and Punishment.
The main character in this novel, a young man named Raskolnikov, presents a striking example of an INFJ in disintegration via their id function of Fi. The novel is basically a story about a young man that is a student in university but who lives a very marginal and isolated life in poor conditions. He is very introspective and given to ideas rather than taking care of the practicalities of existence. He becomes possessed by a fixed idea, which is whether he is capable of committing murder with the same moral impunity as the great conquerors of the world had done. The whole story of this young man hinges on the central act of murder that Raskolnikov plots and carries out. The rest of the story deals with Raskolnikov’s conscience post-murder.
I highly suggest reading this masterful novel
In some senses, the Fi function is the strongest function in the INFJ makeup. The INFJ is built on a base of Fi similar to the way in psychoanalytic theory that the ego is built on the id. The dominant function would be analogical to the ego in this example. Because of the importance of the id in psychoanalytic theory, you can see why Fi would be a potent function in the totality of the INFJs psyche.
Another fine characterization of an INFJ type in the throes of their Fi id occurs in William Shakespeare’s play Hamlet.
Hamlet, the main character in the play, is overwhelmed with grief at the death of his father and the remarriage of his queen mother to his uncle. He senses there is something amiss in this whole situation but he can’t quite pinpoint it. Hamlet is in such a state of despair that he ponders taking his own life, which is dealt with in the famous “to be or not to be” monologue of his.
If nothing else, make an attempt to read through this monologue to get a flavor for Fi in an INFJ.
Another instance of this characteristic Fi in INFJ takes the form of a monologue in The Telltale Heart by Edgar Allen Poe. Because this is a monologue and is thus one character talking to themselves, it gives a good insight into the thought processes of an INFJ in Fi disintegration. It is colored with guilt and thoughts of being found out for the terrible things the INFJ has done. Most INFJs aren’t murderers but this applies in a less extreme way to other terrible acts that the INFJ feels they have committed. This is the source of INFJ torture, where they make their own hell for themselves because they haven’t been good enough in some way.
It is typical of INFJs to descend into this function when they have been locked in introversion too long via their NiTi loop otherwise known as tertiary temptation which I detail in another article.
It is important to take this function into account in the INFJ because it will aid in accurately identifying people of this type. If you are only looking only for INFJs that are demonstrating the extraverted form of feeling, then you are going to be missing large swathes of INFJs because many of them show little to no Fe in their expression. This doesn’t mean they shouldn’t, as this function is the one that would allow them to drain the poisonous Fi that collects in their psyche, but many INFJs don’t. I think this is because of some misunderstanding about the so-called auxiliary function in the Meyers-Briggs system. I agree that it is the function that is most able to assist the dominant function’s aims, but in practice, the auxiliary function is often bypassed in favor of the tertiary function, which is introverted thinking for an INFJ. This leads to a double introversion for the INFJ, a locking into a fixed attitude in which the two introverted functions cycle back and forth between each other, effectively locking out any outside input from an extraverted function. This cycle leads to an eventual fall into the introverted feeling function. If they continue to stay locked in introversion, they eventually cycle even further down into the introverted sensation function, which is extremely unpleasant for an INFJ. Being here for the INFJ is like being in the grinding gears of the machinery of the world. It is like burning through everything and just ending up in a place of absolute meaninglessness. When an INFJ ends up here they are likely to be almost catatonic and completely horrified by all existence. This is what happens when they introvert too much and can’t get out of it. They go deeper and deeper until they reach a place where they literally can’t exist.
However, cycling into Si is beyond the scope of this article, and in any event, comparably rare, except in times of extreme distress for the INFJ.
INFJs are made out of the stuff of introverted feeling at a deep level. It can be felt all around them but nowhere in particular. It is what gives INFJs their characteristic emotional depth, which certainly doesn’t come from Fe. Go read about Fe somewhere and tell me where it says anything about depth of emotion. Neither does Ni account for this emotional depth because INTJs are not emotionally deep and they also possess Ni as a dominant function. INTJs disintegrate through Ti, which is their id function, but that is another story. Can you say schizophrenia?
Yet another work of fiction that helps paint a picture of the Fi id in INFJs is from the movie The Neverending Story. There is a scene in that movie where the character known as Atreyu is crossing the swamps of sadness with his horse named Artax. Artax suddenly stops in the midst of the swamps and won’t budge. Meanwhile Atreyu is talking to him in soothing tones insisting that he must overcome the pull of the swamps and keep going. Artax then slowly starts sinking into the mud of the swamps while Atreyu is wildly pulling at his reigns with all his strength and yelling at him to overcome the downward pull of the swamps. Artax can’t muster the will to move from that spot in the wake of the overwhelming sadness he feels. He sinks into the mud until he is covered over and dies.
Fi in INFJs is the danger of losing the will to live because of the overwhelming sadness that they feel deep inside. This is Fi in its most complete negative manifestation as a collection of all the terrible feelings in existence. It is also the key to why INFJs, in their highest instances, are so good at creating extremely moving works of art. Fi for the INFJ is guilt, shame, fear, hatred, sadness, loneliness, desire, hunger, rage, anger, existential annihilation, and so on.
The id function for any type is something that it is good at but it is simultaneously undermining. The antidote to this is the same as for the lock into tertiary temptation; the auxiliary function. It is amazing what happens when a type really learns to use their auxiliary function because it is the one function that simultaneously heals all the problems involved with locking into the attitude orientation of the dominant function while also allowing one to shine like a beacon in the tumult of humanity. Paradoxically, both the tertiary and the id function will manifest beautifully if one ignores them and focuses on the auxiliary function.
For INFJ, all the negative emotional experience that they have collected over the years will begin to be resolved the moment they attempt to express them in some medium (instead of trying to figure them out, ponder the significance of them or talk themselves into why they must be such bad people because they have all this emotional negativity). Fe is an opportunity for the INFJ to express the depth of their feelings similar to how a spout provides an outlet for a container to pour out its contents. If they don’t open the spout, the feelings build up, ferment and become poisonous. INFJs are primed to be collectors or containers of negative emotional experience. They often attract them unconsciously to themselves by acting as people’s confessors. These feelings quietly fill them up until they become more and more weighed down with all the vagaries of existence. With just a little conscious will, they could just as easily begin to drain themselves via Fe, which in contradistinction to their experience of Fi, is a complete joy to them.
Oh, how good it feels for to an INFJ to express themselves, to begin to put words, or sounds, or pictures to this pain. And that is how INFJs use Fe, not in the main sense, but as a way to encase their pain and make it intelligible to other’s common sensibilities. Again, this is the real key to why INFJs can be so affecting, because they use Fe to put into common feeling standards the experience of this very subjective emotional pain that occurs through Fi. They have a gift for universalizing their suffering. Isn’t that enough of a reason to want to live right there? You get to tell the rest of the surface dwellers how much your heart has been broken by the world and they will applaud you for it. The key is really to flow and not to congeal, not to let the emotions pool up too much.
It is your job as an INFJ to bale water out of a leaky boat faster than the water is coming in.
But, when you are trapped in the swamps of sadness, it doesn’t matter what anyone says or screams at you. Your will is paralyzed by the horror of existence and in those moments you can’t find a reason to go on. So, if you are an INFJ, or think you might be one, express yourself. I know this will sound unbearably superficial if you are in the throes of your id, but nonetheless, any effort in this direction will start to save you. You can give up the whole search for moral perfection or berating yourself for your failure in this sphere. You are not here to be morally perfect. That is the INFPs job. You are here to tell of the descent into the depths of human despair. Magically, in doing this, you will be delivered to your version of heaven.
If you need help with any of the INFJ issues outlined in this article, consider consulting with me. I have been helping INFJ’s since 2015 find their way in a world not made for them.
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Which characters would you say are ideal INFPs? I enjoyed this article, and now I’m wondering what dominant Fi really looks like.
I’ll give you some well-known people that I think are INFPs. I’m not sure who fits the ideal type of INFP but if we are going by an INFP with strong dominant introverted feeling I would name off Robert F. Kennedy, Andrew McCarthy, Molly Ringwald, Noah Wyle, Adrien Brody, Jake Gyllenhaal, Christian Bale, Chris O’Donnell, and Dennis Kucinich.
For the more “extraverted intuition in the auxiliary” side of INFP we get what could be termed “the geek” side of INFP. Think Michael Stipe, Glen Philips, Todd Louiso, and Aaron Ruell. These guys will also give you a good feeling for how extraverted intuition works as an auxiliary function rather than as a dominant function. Extraverted intuition as a dominant function usually manifests more loudly and in an over-the-top way, whereas extraverted intuition in the auxiliary manifests in a subtle and shading way. Basically, it causes the introverted feeling dominant to manifest itself in a quirky, offbeat, sincere love-vibe kinda way.
For either type of INFP there is a subdued and reserved quality to them. There is a strong feeling of having these core principles and often not too much interest in being flashy, showy, and adorned about them. INFPs carry a strong feeling of stability, thoughtfulness, and a strong but understated and patient conviction about what they are doing. Watch some of the examples I gave of Fi dominant INFPs in an interview on Youtube and you get this overall sense of stoicism and deep reserve, even though they are in show business in one way or another. They are understated and tend to answer questions in a matter-of-fact manner without feeling any need to embellish them or expand on them too much. They are pretty much the complete antithesis to a type that goes out of their way to sell themselves or speak up too loudly for anything. They tend to lack in humor. This is less true with the INFPs who have their extraverted intuition auxiliary more active.
Humor aside, there will usually be a geekier vibe to these type of INFPs. They will be more willing to talk and be more responsive to humor and things like that. They are more willing to make fun of themselves and their genuinely awkward mien. INFPs are the most genuinely geeky of all types. The whole idea of “alternative music” and “shoegazer rock” seem to capture the INFP spirit. INFPs hate pretentiousness, bombast, and showiness. They like things that are down-to-earth and utterly and geekily sincere. INTPs would be their counterparts in the world of geeks. They both have extraverted intuition in the auxiliary and I think extraverted intuition in this position is what accounts for the two type’s geeky impression.
INTP geeks out on technology and computers and the like. INFP geeks out on love and all its possibilities.
I’ve been having over-introversion issues recently. I’ve experienced it a number of times, but never really knew how to g about it. Then I recalled about shadow function and searched up INFJ and Fi. Now I’m here.
Thanks for shedding light to this subject. This post helped me understand why I get caught on the Fi poisons when thinking too must about it. To me, I feel like it’s a mixture of Fi and Si that really cause my mind to burn hell on itself.
I’m definitely going to schedule some time to make art.
Yes, making art is healing to INFJs. The auxiliary function of Extraverted Feeling is engaged by this. As a general rule, keeping your auxiliary function happy makes you happy.
Thank you for this article, it was very powerful ( I read it hours ago and I’m still not quite over it.). I was wondering of you could, please, write more about cycling all the way to Si, because I think I’ve been there, and I’d like to understand why.
Ok, this is a bit “too much information” stuff, but here’s what happened: giving birth to my child was the most violent, absurd, hellish experience I have ever had. I felt my body, mind and soul were brutally raped and I was left absolutely alone and ridiculed. I was catatonic and completely horrified by all existence for weeks after it, all I wanted to do was die. During it, I only wanted to die, everything was too much in every single way.
Yeah, it was not something I like to remember, but never understood why I felt the way I felt. Why me? Why most women are all like “yeah it hurt, but it was worth it” and I knew I’d be lucky just to be sane one day again.
Do you have any idea if my absolute intolerance of that sort of pain, the helplessness etc. had to do with Se or Si, which I know are not my strongest suits? I’ve never been “bodily” in that I don’t really *know* my body the way some people sense everything going on in their body. I live in my head (INFJ), and I’ve been wondering today that was it the excess amount of internal and external stimulation simply too much and it threw me into the deep well of hell?
This topic is a bit of a tabu, but I hope I get discreet comments. Thank you.
First of all, I’m terribly sorry to hear about this hellish birthing experience that you went through.
To answer your question of whether this could have been because you are an INFJ and INFJ has very weak sensing (Si and Se), I could say, “Yeah, sure” but I don’t know that it would help. I don’t have any experience of INFJ women and their birthing experiences so I feel reticent to say anything in this regard. But, if you want to speculate, I would say that INFJ may have some of the lowest pain tolerance out there, especially on a physical level. I have heard of some women reporting that they felt a feeling of utter emptiness and despair following the birthing process.
This could be exacerbated because of the hospital experience and the way doctors (mostly men) treat pregnant women. I don’t know if you gave birth in a hospital but I would think that could add to the innate trauma that is present in any birthing process if you aren’t treated in a way that is conducive to your needs.
But, don’t feel alone. Many women have experienced terrible feelings of helplessness in the birth process.
It sounds like you went through a “dark night of the soul” type experience. Experiences like this are typified by great existential pain (horror at all the aspects of existence) and a feeling like one has been abandoned by god (or whatever gives you a similar feeling). There is a feeling like one is utterly alone in the universe. Suffice to say, it is extremely scary and horrifying.
Know this though. Whatever put you in that place, though you might want to analyze it and figure it out, will pass. And you will be stronger for it. Yes, I know it can leave you with an unresolved feeling about the basis of existence, but sometimes it is best to move on. Don’t dwell on it too much or try to figure it out. It may come to you later when you least expect it, simply through the act of living.
Also, if anyone else that has any experience with this can help in this matter, that is what she is asking for. So, feel free to be a part of the human family and speak up.
My heart goes out to you and I wish you healing and understanding in this matter. I am sorry that you had to go through such a terrible experience without answers as to the meaning of it.
I truly empathize. Know you are not alone.
I had a similar experience after the birth of my daughter. It had nothing to do with the physical pain of childbirth, as I was keen on going drug-free anyway and enjoyed the freedom. It was upon entering the hospital that things became hellish. The controlling, threatening, physical violation of forced episiotomy, and literally being hit in order to subdue to the position they wanted.. and worse.. the lack of support or understanding from my ex-husband and so called family-in-law. I think it is the Fi, not the Si experience that made it excruciating. If Se, has to do with conforming against one’s will and being a “good girl” maybe it plays a role in traumatic birth. I felt so abandoned, disregarded and abused by the persons and hospital culture, not birth itself as a physical/spiritual process. I am actually specialized in public health and a birth advocate. This has been my universal findings amongst women and my personal experience as well. Hope my comment helps.
Hi, I’m INFJ and I had a similar experience with the birth of my first.
For me it was being consumed by an overwhelming fear – I was (irrationally) convinced I was going to die. I’m not sure if it was the loss of control or the pain but I remember looking at myself in the mirror afterwards and seeing a haunted look in my eyes that I thankfully haven’t seen since. I was also plagued by guilt that I had performed badly during labour and done a bad job (despite my daughter being born naturally, healthy etc).
The birth of my second was wholley different. I went in expecting a repeat of the nightmare but actually found a peaceful inner strength and felt empowered by the experience. Perhaps because I relinquished all control of the situation from the outset? As a result I felt redeemed and released from the guilt I’d carried from the birth of my first. Hope this helps if anyone had a similar experience x
Thanks for posting this article Blake – it is indeed a powerful read. I’m an INFJ through and through and often fluctuate between highs and lows. Some of the lows have been so low that I could never be sure I would recover from them. The world becomes, as you’ve so aptly described, a place of absolute meaninglessness.
For years I hoped it would all just go away. Then one day I started reading about personality types. A lot of it makes sense now, thankfully. Incidentally I am an artist and this form of expression is the only way I’ve ever gotten myself out of these lows. I too am interested in reading your thoughts about INFJs and Si – pulling out of these lows have been getting increasingly harder each time and I’m eager to understand the process.
Any thoughts on INFJs and Narcissism?
INFJs cycling into Si? Do you want to get super depressed and be on a total downer trip? INFJs hate Si. Don’t even say the word “introverted sensation” around them. Ugh. Yuck. Bleck. Leaves a bad taste in their mouths. It is when the world becomes too much the world. When all you can think about is the sensation you feel in your throat, like when you are focused on how much you are swallowing and can’t stop thinking about the sensation of swallowing. Or you might begin to concentrate on some sensation in your stomach, or your ass, or…..Aaahh!!! How am I breathing, how does one breath? And you run screaming down the street late at night in the snow pulling your hair out and beating your chest. And then you collapse in the snow and you feel every possible sensation all at once rush in upon you that you had been somehow completely oblivious to before, and it all hurts so immensely, and you look at the street lights but you don’t know how vision works anymore. How can I see anything? What is vision? What are images? What is this world? How can I receive it? How can I have ever inhabited it? There is no place that can contain me. All is meaningless sensory data that I am minutely aware of at every second. It is unbearable. I am a piece of meat tied to the earth and it only speaks swallow language. “I can’t live through each slow century of her moving.”
Basically, if introverted feeling is the top level of hell for an INFJ, introverted sensation would be the bottom level. It is kind of like how clinical depression is described by someone like William Styron in his great book, Darkness Visible, a personal memoir of his experience of (very) deep depression. One of the quotes from him:
Cycling into Si is kind of like all that. Its the frozeness of existence. No energy. No life anywhere. Just the dull, mechanical, vaguely unpleasant and distasteful aspects of this ashy existence. All the input from the senses: light, images, tastes, smells, sounds, and bodily sensations all seem incredibly unbearable and absurd. You are just a hollow puppet of existence, a meat machine that will live out the rest of your existence in this horrible mistake of a body.
So, as you can see, all these experiences are basically the result of feeling the absence of dominant introverted intuition. Cycling into Si is the absolute loss of the dominant for an INFJ. So, you have to try not to allow the lock into introversion to grow that unwieldy. Because when it gets to that point, it really, really, really sucks beyond description. Though, like I said, William Styron does a great job in his personal memoirs. There are books on the grieving process that describe some of these types of extremely painful and seemingly unendurable states of the soul. Such as when a parent loses a child. Suffice to say, there are some incredibly painful states of the mind, body, and soul and as far as you want to go, they are there.
Why is it getting harder to pull out of these lows you are susceptible to? Is it because you are getting older and feel less time to materialize your dreams of being an artist of significance? Or is it something else? You don’t have to tell me if you don’t feel comfortable with it. Just trying to help.
I mean, all that stuff I just explained is really just descriptive more than prescriptive. I say to INFJs use your extraverted feeling auxiliary because it is so overlooked and so simple in some way that goes beyond talk. Or speculation. Or analysis. Or any number of other ways that INFJs are prone to mindfuck themselves. But, their problem with this can be a light one or it can grow in some cases into a very serious and unwieldy problem. And I don’t know that this aspect of psychology (Myers-Briggs) is sufficient in and of itself to solve a problem as serious as deep depression and deep pathological conditions in general.
But, since I take the experimental and free-ranging attitude, I just see myself as offering information and insight that I have into this particular domain. And to me, it is primarily fun, but it lies in a background of profundity to me. There is something very profound about the human condition that Jung first hit upon, however he did it.
INFJs and narcissism? Without getting too deep on the matter, yes, INFJs, in my opinion, are particularly susceptible to narcissism. I have stated this before in other places and pissed people off, but, that is my honest opinion. But, I am not necessarily talking about narcissism in a clinically pathological sense, but rather as a continuum, such that you can have severe narcissism at one end, which is crippling, and a healthy and positive narcissism at the other end. Narcissism, in a nutshell, is just an inordinate desire to focus on oneself. I think INFJs mainly do this because they find themselves, their inner world, so fascinating. It may be compensatory because they are introverts in the intuitive attitude and as such repress the vast bulk of their psychic energy from the concrete and external objective world. So, where some extraverts find such interest in the things of the external world and avenues for the wide dispersion of their psychic energy, INFJs, for example, often don’t. Does this make them bad or pathological? No, it just makes them self-focused on their internal worlds and all the possibilities that they perceive arising from within themselves. They want to explore their private fantasies, many of which are about them and their possibilities for being.
Something like that.
Well, hope that answer some of your questions. Be sure to chime in if you have more thoughts or feelings that you want to express. And thanks for your honest sharing.
These lows… no, they’re not frequent or serious enough to warrant professional attention. I’ve thought about it and I’d like to think that if I ever felt like it was out of my hands I would know. For now, trying to make sense of it is enough.
There are many triggers. You were spot on in saying it has to do with getting older and the feeling of running out of time… Am I successful? It depends on who you ask of course – I do realise INFJs set the bars pretty high to begin with and the only opinion that actually matters is our own. I struggle with the idea of success as it is commonly defined and tend to avoid having anything to do with being in the spotlight – this is often conflicting and tedious of course. I have the added bonus of actually being shy. So being formally recognised for my achievements is something I both want and avoid because this high is always followed by a low.
I also don’t handle prolonged exposure to anything on war, violence and human suffering – or any sort of suffering for that matter – without starting to feel this huge swell of hopelessness and frustration of not being able to do anything about it. And then there is the endless need of perfection in every aspect of my life, relationships and work that defies logic. I realise this is impossible but even knowing this I am incapable of settling for anything less. But I do. I compromise because I know I have to – also rather selfishly, don’t want to end up alone etc – but each time I feel like I lose myself a little and over long periods of time it gets hard to live with… I’m not sure the people around me understand this. I also hide it well of course.
Some Tolstoy quotes I identify with –
“The changes in our life must come from the impossibility to live otherwise than according to the demands of our conscience not from our mental resolution to try a new form of life.”
“Without knowing what I am and why I am here, life is impossible.”
I echo your views on narcissism – thanks for your honest opinion too. I think this word is too often misunderstood and associated with negatively. We’re not all looking into pools of water and admiring our own reflections. Internal reflection, perhaps, certainly not external. And putting this down has been somewhat cathartic.
You sound very self-aware.
You know yourself, you know what others expect, and you know what the world is like.
It’s all known.
Maybe the answer is not to know.
“Cycling into Si is kind of like all that. Its the frozeness of existence. No energy. No life anywhere. Just the dull, mechanical, vaguely unpleasant and distasteful aspects of this ashy existence. All the input from the senses: light, images, tastes, smells, sounds, and bodily sensations all seem incredibly unbearable and absurd. You are just a hollow puppet of existence, a meat machine that will live out the rest of your existence in this horrible mistake of a body.”
wow. so, this is Kafka’s nightmare then (INTJ, same problem, I guess) … I have an INTJ friend, I can detect some of these problems in his inner struggles … but most INTJs seem not to have a big problem with this (or are they just hiding it?)
Most INFJs won’t have a problem with it either unless they are in some kind of serious disintegration via their id impulses (Fi for them and Ti for INTJ). I only touched on this cycling into Si for an Ni dom. as a kind of extreme of cycling into Fi id and staying their too long. It turns into the bottom levels of hell via the move into Si.
Also, I don’t know if any of this is correct. I’m just making speculations based on what I know about the types, the functions, and my observations of people that have this particular setup of Fi id. This would apply to INTJ too (the Si cycling) but would come from being stuck in their Ti id, which is considerably different from the Fi id of course. Ti id is kind of like catatonic schizophrenia, or some kind of schizophrenia (split mind), which may become catatonic when the Si cycling takes hold. Or something like that.
However, keep in mind, I may be full of shit.
I think I speak on behalf of most of your readers when I say that we love your speculations 🙂 even if you’re full of shit, it’s more interesting than much of the verifiable stuff out there 🙂 so, bring on your theories 🙂
“This would apply to INTJ too (the Si cycling) but would come from being stuck in their Ti id, which is considerably different from the Fi id of course. Ti id is kind of like catatonic schizophrenia, or some kind of schizophrenia (split mind), which may become catatonic when the Si cycling takes hold. Or something like that.”
right, makes sense. schizophrenia because of the impersonal, yet holistic character of Ti? which as id, is experienced in a negative way, as a dissolution of personality into multiplicity, further aggravated by dominant Ni? so that would be poor Nietzsche then?
that’s really interesting.
ok, so you’re saying there’re five main dangers to the ego, then:
– the grip of the inferior function
– being stuck in the dominant
– bypassing the auxiliary, and falling in the dominant-tertiary loop
– the id
– the id + shadow of the inferior (the ultimate hell)
with an ENTP then:
– the first one, I know perfectly (alas): becoming obsessed with some random detail(s), obsession with sensations in one’s own body, hypochondria, panicking over having missed some minor, unknown detail etc., nightmares about coming late to a crucial meeting, this weird phenomenon that I know exactly what time is it, and how much time has lapsed, and *at the same time* somehow not realizing that I’m late … the complete inability of timing for myself, coupled with an exact sense of timing for others;
– the second, as well (that would be the acid trip of one’s own Ne)
– the third, obviously 🙂
– but please, tell me more about the fourth and the fifth. I have no clue, from personal experience, what that might be. how would a Te id feeding off an inferior Se look like? recklessness? violent outbursts? tell me more, please
feel free to be full of shit, invent
OK motherfucker, I will!
O, I love this. You are going to speak for everyone. Well, I suppose an ENTP would know because they know about the life, universe, and everything. It must be a minor detail in the whole scheme of things to know what all the viewers of Stellar Maze would like to hear about 🙂
Anyway, as regarding your queries everything you said seems on point. All the obsessions with sensations in the body (what the fuck are sensations!? Aaaah!) is an ENTP inferior Si thing. Sensations in the body seem unknown and dangerous and foreboding in some way. ENTPs are often oblivious to their bodily existence and can act as if the whole material world was just some inconvenient annoyance that is taking up all their precious virgin space. Space with which to project their characteristic infinities. In the whole scope of this, when they are somehow called down into their very finite bodies, I think they can reverse infinity and redirect it into their physical aspect, such that what was once macroscopic in scope is now microscopic in scale. So, now they are pondering whatever sensation in their body is calling their attention, which is usually a negative sensation to them, and now they are pondering the infinite scale of that sensation such that it frightens them because they can’t stop thinking about it and it seems that it can just go on forever. They might be thinking about the swallowing mechanism and can’t stop thinking about swallowing, which of course can become frightening because what is in there, how weird. How strange. And they are kind of fascinated with it and scared by it at the same time.
As for what you were saying about the fourth and fifth items, I don’t think it would lead necessarily to violent outbursts but more to a rigidity of behavior and demeanor of some sort, which is uncharacteristic for an ENTP whom is usually quite flexible and open. An ENTP can all of a sudden become autocratic and insistent (Te) about some particular thing (Si). And yes, it can have to do with getting hung up on some relatively minor detail that for some reason or another has assumed momentary gigantic proportions for the ENTP.
At that point, the ENTP loses their characteristic resiliency and becomes scared and conservative about some facet of the external environment. Like a phobic response to something out of all proportion to the actual danger entailed. Si is quite different from Se in its sense of conservatism and sort of shriveling up response in the face of danger. Se may be scared but it will be ready to face or fight the danger. And take risks. Si in it’s extreme is the least risk-taking function of them all.
Also, I think some ENTPs in id can be gluttonous pigs in some way. They can gorge themselves. Not necessarily on food. But more, in just this general motion of gorging I see, as if they were stuffing themselves in this very rigid and repetitive machine-like way with some kind of food-stuff. However, this may be related more to the tertiary Fe in combination with the Si inferior. It feels more like an inverse ESFJ thing that has gone all out of proportion. And ENTPs can very much lack a sense of proportion in some absolute and cosmic sense. You know, like the space pig thing I mentioned in my ENTP is at Play in the House of Gemini article.
They can be like these cosmic hoarders of space.
spot on!
although, for me at least, it’s so much an uneasiness with sensations, it’s a much more intellectual self-fuck-up: I have a relatively stoic attitude to pain or any other uncomfortable sensation, as long I know where it comes from, why is it there etc … but when I don’t know, when it just appears out of nowhere, then I start speculating, fitting it in an elaborated scheme of symptoms (bringing up other symptoms that were actually not there, just to fit the system), until I become unable to separate the real from the imaginary. I checked out some ENTP & ENFP fora, and this seem to be more common than I thought … of course, it also works in reverse: a few times it happened that I had a condition and thought that everything was just in my head … however, I’ve learned to control it … yoga helps, almost with everything 🙂
Since seeing your “Least Likely to be Who You Think They Are” post elsewhere online and tracking down its source, I’ve been engrossed in your site instead of doing any of my homework (self-discovery > high school French, anyways). It seems as if the path to understanding the self is rife with doubt, second guesses and double checking, but your writing has definitely eased some of my worries about whether or not I am an INFJ and have found some way to make sense of my often confusing self.
I simply wanted to thank you for your candid posts which expose the “darker” sides of INFJs that few appear to delve into, although it is integral to any personality. Parts of your posts have been quite jarring, but they have been by far the most insightful of anything I’ve read with regards to MBTI types while maintaining a human voice and not sounding like a clinical robot.
Although I’m quite curious as to what type you ascribe to, I understand the mystery is part of the allure, and in some ways it might be better to keep things seeming impartial, if that makes sense. Regardless, this was a very perceptive post on Fi, especially considering that it often remains neglected in writing about INFJs. I have to select a “classic” novel to read for English, and Crime and Punishment is now that much more personally intriguing.
Thank you again for your truthful posts. I’d much rather read your blog than the bland, redundant articles on how INFJs are so “mystical” and wonderful. I look forward to more 🙂
Thanks a lot. That’s nice to hear.
Yes, definitely read Crime and Punishment if you haven’t read it before. Also, read Notes From the Underground, another novel from Dostoevsky, and probaly the best thing I have ever read that nails the dark heart of an INFJ. The latter book also has the benefit of being relatively short. But, it kicks total fucking ass and is very accessible to pretty much anyone that wants to understand introverted feeling in an INFJ. It is the best portrait I can think of the way this function manifests in an INFJ, which comes down to three words: TOTAL FUCKING ID.
If you haven’t read this book, pick it up today. Seriously. Dostoevsky was an INFJ that fully experienced the depths to which this function can take you. As a matter of fact, that book should just be called, INFJ: In The Id.
Very powerful work and very insightful look into the depths and darkness of an INFJ.
I don’t want to request a bunch of INFJ-centric posts because you’ve already written and answered so much about it, although I know you’re going to write whatever you want in the end anyways, so I suppose there’s no harm in asking: Are you planning on writing about how Se totally trips up INFJs (and INTJs?) and turns them into uncharacteristically characteristic hedonists? I’d be very interested to hear your opinion, as I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere, but your take on things is far more entertaining and thought-provoking.
Also, I’ve mainly been looking at the MBTI side of things, but how does astrology tie into it all? I’ve never been very “into” astrology, but I’ve always simultaneously half-believed that maybe there could be something to it.
Thanks for the prompt response and reading recommendations.
Yeah, I might write about Se and INFJ/INTJ. I’m certainly not finished writing about INFJs, so I’m sure I’ll get around to this at some point, if not very soon.
Astrology ties into this whole thing because I am an astrologer and I noticed over the years that Myers-Briggs/Jung’s functions correlate to the astrological elements and modes. It is hard to describe the relationship in a simplistic sentence, but suffice to say they are very connected and I actually regard them as the same thing more or less, though being utilized in different contexts. But, they are basically the same language. Jung studied astrology and alchemy, so he probaly got the four basic functions from that tradition. He would never publish something like that though because he was trying to maintain his reputation as a serious academic and scholar (rightfully so in my opinion), but the thing is that no one knows where he got those terms from, so you are just left to speculate.
What is really strange to me is how many of the Myers-Briggs people have not made this correlation and take Myers-Briggs as valid but regard astrology as bullshit. If they think astrology is bullshit, perhaps they should look more into who Jung was and the kind of things he was into. I mean, all this Myers-Briggs terminology goes back to Jung. Where did he get the terms from?
At any rate, it is obvious that there is a tie between the four basic functions and the astrological elements. I mean, that is really fucking obvious if anyone would care to look at it somewhat objectively, without knee-jerk reactions against hearing the word “astrology”.
Most people have no idea what astrology really is.
And there is more than that, but that is just the part that is really obvious. I will be writing about this in the coming days of the Stellar Maze. Stay tuned.
Out of curiosity, I filled out a small astrological report on astro.com, and am pleasantly surprised by the results. Maybe there’s some Forer/Barnum effect at play, but there are many points that wouldn’t apply to everyone.
I think the Myers-Briggs feels more legitimate because you answer fundamental questions about your own behaviour and preferences. It’s strange to think that where/when you’re born, which seems arbitrary in the development of a person, can influence someone so greatly. Are you good at guessing birth dates based on personality then, too?
I am intrigued. Definitely going to look into astrology and await your further posts.
I am sometimes good at guessing people’s sun signs, particularly women with the Sun in Aries, for some reason. But, there is a lot more to astrology than a person’s sun sign. Often what will stand out the most in a person’s birth chart is planets that are close to one of the cardinal angles, the ascending angle being the most important one. Any planet there should stand out pretty strongly in a person’s character and personality.
It may seem arbitrary that the time and place of a person’s birth influence a person’s life and development, but I don’t see why that should be any more arbitrary than assuming there is a thing called introverted feeling that can do the same thing as well. I mean, what the fuck is a function really? Where did it come from? What is it?
I think the primary thing that makes astrology fall into disrepute is not that it is based off of one’s time and place of birth, but rather that many people observe (rightfully) that many of the other people born under the same sign as them don’t share many of the same traits as them in any obvious way. And this is true. People of the same Myers-Briggs type are much more alike than people that share the same astrology. However, astrology is important as a source language for the Myers-Briggs type and as an emending and conditioning agent for one’s innate Myers-Briggs type.
The most stupid analogy I can think for the relative influences of one’s Myers-Briggs type and one’s birth chart is that the MB type is like your body and the influences of your birth chart are like the clothes one is wearing on one’s body. Some clothes fit well, some don’t, and yet some other clothes compel you to see yourself in new ways. That sort of dynamic.
Also, these are the sort of clothes that you can’t take off. You have to work the best with them that you can.
Why specifically women with the Sun in Aries? I know a couple, so I’m curious as to what stands out about them to you if you’re able to pinpoint what.
Do you find trends in astrological signs/ascendants relative to Myers-Briggs types then, or is MB type more of the “body” as you said, and astrology more fine-tuning based on MB type?
Thank you for all the replies; you’ve practically written another article in responses. These ideas are just so interesting!
I’m an Aries INFJ, born on the 17th. And although I don’t know much about astrology, the general traits I do know for Aries (energetic, social, excitable, alpha female, jealous, etc.) couldn’t be more inaccurate in describing who I am . Virgo, on the other hand (slow to warm up, intelligent, reserved, sensitive to feelings of discomfort, health conscious, picky, detail oriented, attracted to those in need of help, loyal, over analytical, perfectionistic, extremely organized in some areas while very messy in other areas) describes me to a T. Why would this be if there is truth to astrology?
Yeah, I had asked if you were a Virgo rising for that reason. To find the rising sign, you need to know the time of birth. Let me know either here or in my email what your time of birth is if you know it. Also, the city of your birth. You have already stated you are April 17. And since you are 32, you must have been born 1983. So, I need city and time of birth to figure out rising sign (ascending sign)
Also, there is a lot more to astrology ( a lot more!) than the sign that the sun is in at birth. It also has to be qualified by temperament (the Myers-Briggs type) to be placed in the proper context. It is too much to go into here. Suffice to say, there is much to write about this topic. Which I will be in the future, particularly as regards INFJs.
again, beautifully written.
what would be the id function for the other types? you could start with the ENTP (random example) 😉
ENTP has Te id. More towards the ESTJ than the ENTJ side of things because the id feeds off the inferior function, or at least it very much wants to.
so, the id could be identified with the shadow function of the auxiliary?
how does the Te id manifest in an ENTP? you write, “the id function for any type is something that it is good at but it is simultaneously undermining”
would this be the Machiavellian temptation in ENTPs? the temptation to see the world as malleable, prone to manipulation, a chaos full of potentiality that have to seized by a superior mind? chairman Mao was an ENTP, right?
is that it? or something else?
Yeah, there is something of the ENTP wanting everyone to be pawns in their game that seems to have to do with their Te id. They can treat people like chess pieces (objects) in their strategy to get what they want. I get this feeling sometimes that ENTPs would love to give into this impulse to just pick people up and put them where they want to without having to pay even the slightest regards to their desires or sentiments. “Just go here, would ya? Stop being such a recalcitrant dolt? I know what the best place is for you in this setup (whatever that may be).”
I think ENTPs often think they know best how things should play out and in what order. And they often are very politically-minded as well as game theory-oriented such that sometimes they have a deep temptation to just tell people where they need to go and what they need to do so that the game works out best for us all.
I don’t know if Mao is an ENTP. I’d have to think about that.
I don’t know if Mao was ENTP either, but that’s how I’ve seen him typed. I’m not entirely surprised. check him out
check out some of his quotations from the Red Book, and try to read them as much face-value as you can (ie, not as a fucking hypocritic legitimation of a chaotic regime of terror that they are) : isn’t it that he’s trying to organize a whole society (the largest on earth, for that matter) as if it were an ENTP mind? 🙂
Yeah, I think he could be an ENTP. But, when assessing anyone’s temperament from a culture as alien to the West as China, one must first enter the context of the Chinese mindset, and its temperament. Races and cultures have their own temperaments so it is like having to steep in the mindset of that culture to figure out what may be the relative context of an ENTP type in that culture.
And so it seems to me that China, first and foremost, has a predominance of the extraverted thinking function. So, if Mao is an ENTP he may be a particularly id-based one because of the context and dictates of that culture. In other words, he may have been allowed a freer reign of his id function because of the predominant mold of Chinese temperament.
It would be interesting to know how a guy like Mao would have developed if he was born into the American culture, for instance.
The Chinese are a very different culture from Western culture because they place much less value on freedom and individuality. They seem to have a sort of hive mentality, such that each worker within the context of the whole is viewed as so much dispensable collateral to the preservation and the expansion of the culture as a whole. Eastern cultures are much more like this. It is more of a Te-Fi thing.
The Western emphasis on the preciousness of each and every human life is something quite alien to Chinese culture.
Western culture, and America in particular, have much more of an emphasis on the Fe-Ti axis, which is much softer and benign in political and economic practices. The concept of free markets, for example, come from this axis. So does democracy, tolerance for others, melting pots, and laissez-faire practices of all sorts and colors.
So, an ENTP will fair quite differently depending on whether they have been placed in the East or West.
“I get this feeling sometimes that ENTPs would love to give into this impulse to just pick people up and put them where they want to without having to pay even the slightest regards to their desires or sentiments. “Just go here, would ya? Stop being such a recalcitrant dolt? I know what the best place is for you in this setup (whatever that may be).” ”
you’re wrong: “just pick people up and put them where they *are most suitable, upon careful consideration of their objective potentials and reasonably attainable desires or sensible sentiments*. “Just go here, would ya? Stop being such a recalcitrant dolt?”, the Entp thinks, but says instead, “let me help you figure out what is the best place is for you in regards to a reasonable setup”, and then thinks, ‘that could accommodate more people and not just your capricious, self-centred, short-sighted, malicious self, whom I nevertheless like as much as all other capricious etc. selves” 🙂
true, true, there’s something to it … but unless you’re brought up in a bubble, it’s highly unlikely that you pass over your teenage years without having realized that the inability of human beings to adapt to reasonable solutions AND to see the utmost injustice of an unreasonable solution, as long as they’re in a cosy place, is somehow the essence of the human condition … and it would therefore be short-sighted not to take this very fact into account, as well … the *pragmatic* unicorn, as you pointed out 😉
but to be a bit more serious: sure, I usually have the ability & knowledge to come up with the best solution (actually, a set of top solutions) for everyone in most settings … but I’m also acutely aware of the utmost lack of any abilities to enforce it, and that this inability is not just some kind of external annoyance (as in, “oh, if just the people would understand & listen”), but it’s strictly linked to the ability of insight. in this sense, I identify more with the role of the analyst or (in some other circumstances) consultant.
there’s this nasty (and fascinating) Te-Se universe in which one must make one’s way step by step through the jungle of intersected interests: and it seems obvious to me that you can’t at the same time see it from outside and from inside out. of course, you always need both abilities, but I don’t think you can have them with equal clarity: you always need to switch between seeing the duck & the rabbit, but this broader vision, where you can observe the intricate set of duck-rabbit alternatives is, so I think, incompatible with the need to act in the duck-rabbit world. this is constitutive of the human condition, and needs not only to be taken into account, but respected. so, although I’d *of course* like to move people on a chessboard (just as I’d like to have other superpowers), I despise the XNTJ jerks who think they somehow actually have these superpowers and are thus entitled to treat people as pawns of their schemes
Hi again Blake,
So, one of the INFPs I know is actually my mother. I’m an INFJ. You mentioned in other articles about the danger of an ENTP mother with Fi. What about an INFJ’s mother with Fi? Can this be dangerous too, messing up with the Fi id in the INFJ somehow? Especially an INFJ male, with an INFP mother?
It’s not dangerous. It’s just a drag. Dangerous is a whole other thing altogether. When someone’s dominant function is the other person’s id function, which is mutually true of the INFP/INFJ pairing, each type experiences the other as somewhat of a drag because the way their system runs (dominant function) is naturally undermining to the other type. It can be characterized by a kind of malaise and sinking feeling. Like the other person brings you down. Which they literally are with this configuration.
Also, with the INFP/INFJ pairing there is the matter of each person’s tertiary being a function that the other tends to, at the very least, be pretty indifferent to, and at the worst, find extremely irritating over long periods of interaction. Since the tertiary has much to do with the way one communicates or the particular kind of information that one likes to talk about, in the INFJ/INFP these two will be talking at cross-purposes. They tend to experience misunderstandings in communication. What one is talking about the other has zero interest in.
So, I don’t know if I would go so far as to say it is dangerous in the INFJ/INFP pairing. It is more a relationship of indifference. There is a lack of excitement in the relationship.
It would be more dangerous if an INFJ was relating to an ESFP for example. Here there is dominant-inferior interchange, which causes tension and excitement, mixed with some id interplay, which causes an immersion in primal contents. I have said before that this can cause quite a dynamic sexual relationship where the two parties could potentially become sexually addicted to each other. Which might be dangerous. But, it might also be fun. With the id activation there is always a danger of losing control over oneself in the sense that the dominant function provides. But, that can be quite a ride. And maybe valuable in the long-term. How can one know what they are made of if they are always maintain tight control over themselves?
The trick with the id is knowing when to pull yourself out. And if you are with a person that puts you in a constant environment of id, that can definitely be a difficult dynamic in a relationship. It is either a drag or too exciting and all-consuming.
The danger of the id is regression to a more infantile and primal state, disintegration, dissipation, and the possibility of an overpowering release of primal material that could cause psychic unrest and maybe the violation of a few laws. The id function is infantile. It has the development of a little baby who will do anything in its power to satisfy its primary hungers. The id function is the most free from societal conditioning. It has no conscience of any sort. It just wants satisfaction of its life or death desires.
Hello there, just want to give you a huge thanks for this article. I’m an INFJ and I had always been wondering why am I always overwhelmed by negativity and basically just guilt and sadness, then I saw this article, talking about INFJs’ Fi side. Thank you so much, reading this made me understand that I’m not a monster or INFJ that is completely out of place.
I’m glad that you felt some consolation from it. Thanks for commenting.
As an INFP , I cordially thank you for so much insights on MBTI types.
Reading this article,I finally figured out why I sometimes feel that my best friend (I’m sure she’s an INFJ ) is “acting” when she’s expessing her feelings (,but she’s SO sincere a person I bet).
“And that is how INFJs use Fe, not in the main sense, but as a way to encase their pain and make it intelligible to other’s common sensibilities. Again, this is the real key to why INFJs can be so affecting, because they use Fe to put into common feeling standards the experience of this very subjective emotional pain that occurs through Fi.”
Thank you for this.
Now I can just view our ways of expressions both sincere but different.
I’m geeky and she’s affecting lol.
In fact ,I’m still wondering if she’s acting..I think it’s my personal strong principle of sincerity calling…
I feel sorry to blame the “acting”.(that’s not my purpose!)
But under my strong belief system, I think it’s a basic and necessary way of finding eudaimonia that one should be true to his/her feeling .
INFJs may use Fe as a tool to affect others,but they still has to face their Fi ,right?
I wonder If expressing those dark and intense feeling can make my friend feel better,or just dying hurt? If it’s the former,I’ll pick right time to talk with her.
Thank you for reading.
I’m not an original English user.Pardon if my syntax is annoying.><"
“INFJs may use Fe as a tool to affect others,but they still has to face their Fi ,right?”
INFJs must use Fe to express their Fi. If they don’t express their Fi it will seriously hurt them not to do so. Once they learn how to do this on a consistent basis they will feel like heaven’s little children. It is the top-most thing that any INFJ should learn to do – express their dark feelings. This can be done through writing, talking to others that are receptive, art of all sorts, music, and also, INFJs can make great counselors and psychologists once they learn to deal with their dark feelings. They have a natural gift for helping others by listening to them and being able to see the other person at a deep level. I would even say that sometimes an INFJ can help another person and thereby help themselves. That is an Fe-type thing that I’m talking about. It involves an outside component, either outgoing expression or in-going expression from other people in the outside environment. Basically, mobilizing feelings, getting them flowing, not just letting them sit there in some stagnant and upbuilding pool. This is the INFJ nightmare – drowning in a sea of negative feelings that they are natural collectors of. If they find a way to use them, express them, get them out, then they can be quite helpful to others and themselves because they feel things that no one else can feel. They feel everything. But, they have to discharge these feelings, empty them, not let themselves be sucked down into a sea of sorrow. That is the danger with them. And the more they sink the less they want to come out. It is a problem with the will. It feels futile. But, this is the overpowering by the id. I will be writing more about what INFJs can do in greater detail to stay out of the swamps of despair.
blake,I’m so gald that you made this article.It helps me so much and is sooo important to me.
Especially when I knew that INFJs can feel like heaven’s little children(It’s so vivid!I like it!),I wept.
INFJs are truely mentors.(I guess you are an INFJ :P)
Chin (my INFJ friend’s name) pours love to me and always shares her wisdom into words or silently.Thogh we do face some INFJ v.s INFP problems hehe,I’m so glad that she can feel huge happiness .Once I ask her if she has ever felt true happiness ,she said it happened when she was with trees alone.
Now I KNOW she can swim in a pool of joy with people,too!!!YEAH!!!
You guys are kinda angels. Apperciaten for your more explanations of details.
A still shot of Artax drowning in the Swamp of Sadness used in an INFJ post?? Any pointers on how to un-see that in my mind now? God let me sleep tonight.. Geeeeeez. My heart bleeds.
Thank you for the article.
I am impressed, and pretty shocked.
I went through all the stages that described in the article.
With amazing accuracy describe the characteristics of type and its emotional state.
Oh my gosh…what an insightful article! Thank you!
I’ve been trying to become a healthier person, and I knew that getting stuck in the NiTi loop can start bringing in all of those self-doubts…I just never realized I just never realized that it comes from Fi.
Really great article…and Crime and Punishment is my favorite novel.
Holy wow. How come nobody told me this post existed?! I will be back to comment more in depth tomorrow, but I will have to read it again and hope that I can shut off my brain to get some sleep tonight. Ha.
O sorry…
This post exists.
Better?
You don’t know how much I needed this post. I feel like I’ve been locked into my Ni/Ti (and consequently Fi) loop for so long, and at this point I don’t know how to escape. You’ve given me hope that if I can learn to use my Fe as an outlet, maybe I can pull myself up and keep going. Thank you.
Your welcome. Read some of the Fe series of articles for solutions to some of this Fi id thing I’m talking about here:
INFJ: Fe is MagicWho is more likely to have an impact on the world: the trapped INFJ or the one with strong Fe? Expressing yourself is supposed to do what exactly? Bring happyness?
If Dostoevsky experienced the id funcion, did he “learn” the Fe power to write his books later or was actually staying in the id function that made him such an important artist?
“Who is more likely to have an impact on the world: the trapped INFJ or the one with strong Fe?”
Both.
“Expressing yourself is supposed to do what exactly? Bring happyness?”
Yes, expressing yourself will make you happy.
“If Dostoevsky experienced the id funcion, did he “learn” the Fe power to write his books later or was actually staying in the id function that made him such an important artist?”
Basically, Dostoevsky would have had to have a strong experience of Fi id, probaly earlier in his life, then, at some point he began to express them through writing. I think having a strong experience of Fi id can make an INFJ an important artist only if they develop their innate gift to express. So, it’s not an either/or thing. Fi id will operate automatically and unconsciously from a young age for most INFJs. They have to make a conscious decision to express the contents of this id via Fe. The auxiliary function requires making a conscious decision. Once made and gotten in the habit of, it will operate like a magical power. You can’t do anything with the id. It is a receiving function, similar to the dominant. The dominant is conscious and the id is unconscious.
Fe auxiliary can express and produce things, such as works of literature. All the insights, experiences, perceptions, poisons that have been received and stored through dominant and id can be discharged and expressed via auxiliary.
Fi id gave Dostoevsky deep emotional insight. An INFJ does not have to try to be deep. They are born that way. They do have to make the decision to heed the call to action of the auxiliary. But, once they do, they will see how gifted they are, and how easy it is, to pour forth the waters of feeling. In this way, they make palatable the poison.
Nice. Thank you a lot. You write really amazing stuff.
Fe -> make palatable the poison !!!COOOOL!!!!
I appreciate you taking the time to explain Fi in this article because I’ve been wondering about Fi in INFJ lately. However I use Fe so I have a harder time seeing Fi in my behavior, but I can spot Fi in INFP, ISFP, ESFP and ENFP. <– pretty much my circle of friends (dom/aux users).
"The INFJ is frequently described as empathetic, which means they have the ability to inhabit another person’s emotional being and know what they are feeling, even if this other person gives no visible outward signs of these feelings."
Last Thursday an INFP friend came through the door, and I felt a wave of emotions coming out of her even though she did not show any outward sign or verbalize them. Fi or Fe? I think this is where the confusion is. It's small things like this that confuses me. I feel like Fi and Fe are closely related but not interchangeable.
Thanks
This might be a good illustration for the Fi downfall thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgi94cC7av0
And this might be what Si feels like, at least pretty close, what do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5RiM0p588k
I truly recommend you the songs and this band in general 🙂
If you want my honest opinion, I hate this band. They are so derivative and boring. And not deep as they are pretending to be. So, no I can’t recommend them either musically or for illustrations of Fi or Si.
I’m sorry but I am very picky about music and consider myself to know a lot about it. So, I don’t like most music that I have heard in the last twenty years and certainly nothing in the last 10 years.
But, that’s not what this is mostly about. It’s about Fi. So, good Fi illustrations would be the stuff I recommended in this article. Check out Notes From the Underground by Dostoevsky. It gives the best illustration of the Fi downfall thingie. It’s sigificantly shorter than Crime and Punishment and written in a very simple prose style unlike many Russian novels.
Good music that shows Fi id downfall:
The Doors
Pink Floyd
The album, In Utero, by Nirvana is probaly the last good depiction of this dynamic I can think of. Kurt Cobain was Mr. Fi Id. And he was interesting. Check out the album Bleach by Nirvana as well. “I hate myself and I want to die”
Actually, I could and should write an article on In Utero as displaying an uncommon amount of this Fi id dynamic of INFJ, but the problem is quoting lyrics gets me into the area of copyright infringement and possible lawsuits. But, Kurt Cobain is one of the best relatively modern day examples I can think of that shows an INFJ in the throes of Fi id dissolution.
So, check it out. That would be my recommendation.
Do you know Death Note ? Yagami Light would be a very good example for this I think.
“Only I could do it! I was well aware that killing people is crime in itself! Yet at that point it was the only way to make things right! I thought to myself that someday people will come to realise this as much, and regard it as an act of justice! I had no choice but to act as Kira… it was the destiny given to me.I was chosen to renew this rotten world, to bring about true peace – a utopia.”
Are you my HGA?
Yes, I am your high-gain antenna. Anytime.
I’ve got one for you
This is more the Fe after the Fi though, but still relevant? Ish…..
Saturn in the first, extroverted phase of Gemini… It works!
I’ve been trying to figure out exactly which planet the super-ego function would correspond to, and Saturn just works. The superego is our harsh inner critic, the voice of our inadequacies and the place in which we must rely on the pure sweat of our brow and blessings feel stunted. It just sounds Saturnian. Initially, when you asserted that Te is our superego function, I assumed you were referring to Libran Te, and if the superego is indeed Saturn this would indicate an exalted placement…. Well, yeah, Te certainly doesn’t feel like an honored guest in the INFJ’s psyche. It must be Geminian Te, the kind INTJs have such a way with.
This is interesting because, when I read about the steely, heartless competence of the INTJ auxiliary in your last article, I certainly felt inadequate. I felt in awe and totally unworthy in this area of life. My nature is intensely sensitive and full of pathos; without its guiding waters I feel totally lost and disabled. I can hardly stand it when SOMEONE ELSE is being subjected to cold treatment, let alone bear it myself. Yet, much like Raskalnikov of Crime & Punishment, I feel the constant need to prove myself on this area, to test my mettle. I at times willingly subject myself to Geminian environments, like INTJ interest groups, to see if I can hang in that jungle of steel. To see if I can handle their dismissive quips, if I can spar with their masterful logic. I think I’ve earned a yellow belt.😎😎😎 Perhaps turning off the extra sensitive Scorpio moon activates Gemini mars, where we become the complete opposite of the gentleness we generally exude
When we feel the need to test ourselves in the realm of our superego, does this placement morph into Mars? Much like our literary archetype Raskolnikov went so far as to murder, would our spells of intense superego activity be Martian in nature? In Vedic astrology Mars is considered malefic… And Mars does not seem like it would do well in Gemini, though this new phase you speak of, maybe… Nor does Mars, being involved with the will and all, seem like it is very well placed in an INFJ’s implied chart.
So is Saturn the superego, Mars when activated? If so ISFJs do have an exalted placement; how does that look? If the rising sign corresponds to the dominant function, does the inferior correspond to the descendant? If INFJs have an implied Fi Pisces in the 12th house (First phase of the sign, correct?) Does this mean that their final phase Pisces Sun is located in in the 12th house as well? Lots of questions, I know, but this stuff is fascinating!
I’ve been trying to figure out exactly which planet the super-ego function would correspond to, and Saturn just works. The superego is our harsh inner critic, the voice of our inadequacies and the place in which we must rely on the pure sweat of our brow and blessings feel stunted. It just sounds Saturnian. Initially, when you asserted that Te is our superego function, I assumed you were referring to Libran Te, and if the superego is indeed Saturn this would indicate an exalted placement…. Well, yeah, Te certainly doesn’t feel like an honored guest in the INFJ’s psyche. It must be Geminian Te, the kind INTJs have such a way with.
Man, you really pay attention – I love it! Yes, you are exactly right. Saturn is the superego and would correspond to Te in the INFJ. The superego/Saturn function is something that a type would work really hard at in contradistinction to the auxiliary/solar function, the latter of which is a gift waiting to be opened. Ironically, one often does not take the auxiliary function seriously or takes it for granted because it seems to obvious, easy, trite, or lacking in import.
People would rather do something hard. So, if so, yeah, work on your superego function. That will prove to be very hard in most cases.
My advice is lean heavily on the auxiliary and have the superego provide some kind of limitations and boundaries to that form of expression. It is the way to mastery.
For an INFJ, they would use Te to provide limitation and boundaries to Fe expression. Fe expression tends to be artistic. So, that is the context in which Te superego should operate. If an INFJ goes directly for Te, they are going to be having a time. They will flounder and fall and stress and give up. You cannot ignore the solar auxiliary if you want to succeed in life, health, and happiness.
A good and simple example of how this Fe/Te combo would work for an INFJ is if they made a decision to commit to some form of expressing themselves. I have recommended to many INFJs to do the Morning Pages from The Artist’s Way book by Julia Cameron. This book is designed with the aim of helping unblock artists in various mediums.
The cornerstone of this program is the Morning Pages which entails the simple task of writing 3 pages of stream-of-conscious writing 1st thing in the morning.
Here is a clue: There are two items in the previous sentence that are Te elements that effectively prevent the basic activity, which is Fe in nature, from being this nebulous, open-ended, when-I’m-in-the-mood type activity.
It is the limitations of when this activity of free-form expression will be done, how much of this free-form expression will be done, and, also, I think the book recommends doing it everyday, which would be a frequency measurement.
Those three things – sequence of event (1st thing in morning), quantity/amount of production (3 pages), and frequency of occurrence of event (everyday) are Te elements. Within these simple Te constraints, the INFJ (or blocked artist) can express whatever the hell they want. For example, you could write three pages of utter nonsense if you wanted. You just have to do it 1st thing in the morning, do 3 pages of it, and do it everyday.
Notice that the basic activity is not a Te activity, it is an Fe one (and an intuitive one too I would say), but, if the INFJ just set about to express oneself (Fe auxiliary) without any kind of limitations about when they would do it, how much they would do and so on, they are liable to only do it when they are in the mood or inspired as is characteristic of them. The Te superego asks for their basic activity to be rounded out with these very basic limits. However, no one is asking an INFJ to be a corporate executive or something Te like that. INFJs should do an Fe-type thing rounded out with Te limitations and structuring points. The simplest archetypal image of this would be “the disciplined artist.”
This basically mean showing up to the canvas (or the page, or the instrument, or whatever) at a certain time, at a certain frequency, and a certain amount.
INFJs, in their highest potential, use this Te to guide, limit, discipline their innate gifts of Ni, Fi, and Fe (and Ti to some extent).
The trick is also not to go crazy with the superego function. There are INFJs that go too far to the other end of the spectrum and become overly-perfectionistic via Te superego. They can never do it good enough or right.
Just a little bit is all that is needed with the superego, like a dash of salt. Too little salt and the dish is flaccid. Too much salt and the dish is utterly ruined.
Something like that. I’ll definitely have to write more about this. Per usual 🙂
According to the internet the Enneagram four (INFJs) has a negative attitude towards both parents, because they felt unwanted, rejected or missunderstood. Because of this they become self conscious to find out what’s wrong about them. (Ni – Ti Loop). They think that if your parents reject you it must be your fault.
(Take a look at Jon Snow. Always thinking he’s to selfish because he wishes to be a Stark and a real part of the family).
Now, am I interpretending to much or does the Ni – Ti loop come up because of the Te super ego ? The domiant and tertiary functions are a lot more present than the 7th super ego function.
So my question is : Is the 7th function really capable of causing a domiant – tertiary loop ? Or did I just draw a little to many conclusions ? What do you think ?
When you lie in bed after you woke up, and you really want to get out of it, but you just don’t do it. You’re waiting for the motivation to stand up to come. But somehow it isn’t there and you keep lying in the bed although you can’t stand it. You really want to get out. That’s kind of the ID Fi of an INFJ isn’t it? The solution is to simply stand up.
With regards to negative feelings, do you think INFJs have a special relationship with guilt in particular?
From a very young age, I start feeling guilty whenever I feel good or do something good for myself, because I start thinking of everyone who feels bad. Like, if I have a health problem and found a way to eat/exercise that helps me, I think of people who do not have that information or even desire (!) to care for themselves in such a way, and feel guilty for getting healthy. As a result I get stuck in a vicious cycle of sabotaging my own efforts and getting ill again.
It freaks me out. I realize that feeling numb watching the news is a sort of subconscious self-protection, because the second I realize how much crap is happening in the world I will feel awful for every single thing I have which someone else does not.
Right now I have an opportunity to take time off and deal with my long-standing health and mental problems. Including all this INFJ and Jungian research. I am cared for and told not to worry about fitting in but to slowly explore my unique individuality. Do I feel great? Well, guess what! I feel terrible because I think of all those people who do not have the same resources, time, care, opportunities and what not! I feel guilty for having a chance to search for my real self! And as a matter of fact everytime I mention something interesting INFJ-wise to my partner, who is completely accepting and interested in my discoveries, I feel guilty because I feel I am justifying my inability to work in a normal job which he as an INFP can handle, etc.
This endless guilt, guilt, guilt towards not only real people, but also abstract ‘people’ out there.
Living in Japan was my dream but now I struggle everyday not to think of all the poor souls out there working till midnight everyday and cannot even look at office buildings.
I would be very grateful for any comment on this issue of guilt, and feeling bad for having more than others, even while realizing everyone is different, and every destiny is different. Sorry for the rant, not sure where to look for answers.
Yeah, I’ve also struggled with negative feelings of guilt in the past.
It used to take a number of forms , including the type of guilt you describe here (feeling guilty because I don’t do enough for those less well off than myself).
Another type of guilt (and the associated shame) which plagued me from a very young age was a sense of not deserving anything good because I was a horrible person. I believe this started because I once heard a priest explain that God could read our thoughts and knew every sin that we had ever committed, and would punish us severely for each little crime. What a terrible thing to say to impressionable young children!
It took me years to shake off that nagging feeling of having my thoughts constantly being monitored by a punitive deity. Eventually, I was able to dispel the pointless worrying and sense of shame, thanks to my developing intuition. It reassured me of the following:
a) If there was such a being as God, then he or she made me who I was for a reason, and that should be a matter of pride, not shame!
b) If God didn’t exist, then all that guilt and shame was utterly pointless!
From that point on, I started to “own” who I was instead of being ashamed for simply existing. It still took quite a few years before I fully accepted myself, but the process of coming out as gay to my friends and family was a major turning point in my early twenties.
Another milestone was learning about Jungian type. I can still remember the amazing feeling of validation that hit me when I first read about INFJ’s. Suddenly all the pieces of my life story began to fall into place and make sense.
I am sorry to hear that you have been suffering with long-standing health and mental problems, and wish you all the best for the future. I don’t want to offer any specific advice without knowing your circumstances or history, but I hope that my own story is of some value to you.
Thank you so much! It definitely is. I am glad you found a way to break out of the guilt prison.
I have the a) view of God that you described, but perhaps I am at the stage of mental understanding, not wholehearted conviction of my worth.
I know what you mean about the relief of finding out your type – it was exactly the same, pieces falling in their places and blanks getting filled. Still an oingoing process. Somehow a logical, systematic explanation of our complex inner workings makes resolving problems much easier and soooo much more fruitful. That is why I am wondering how, and whether, propensity for guilt in INFJs might be explained function-wise. A Te superego perhaps?
I intend to make the most of all my experiences and turn them into something good and beautiful, so no worries!
Hey Anna!
I have had a lot of problems with guilt..
Both my parents have had a tough life.. They’ve had to work really hard and sacrifice a lot to get to where they are today.. They’ve provided me and my sister with a comfortable home where we’ve never had to struggle for the things that they didn’t have as children.. I guess that has lead me to believe that I haven’t done anything substantial to deserve this comfortable life..
Any time I’m faced with the task of having to make a decision about my life (including my career), I’ve always let things go their way, even if the decision makes me extremely unhappy.. Because I feel like my unhappiness is a small price to pay for everything they have given me.. I feel guilty when i do the things that I love, that they disapprove of, because I feel like i’m doing it at the cost of their happiness..
This has lead to a lot of internal conflict.. Cause on one hand I can’t fight my guilt.. On the other I can’t let go of the frustration of not doing the things i love.. And so I end up doing nothing.. Neither here nor there.. Stagnating.. Procrastinating.. Blaming it on fate.. Never taking my life into my own hands..
I also feel guilty about not having to work hard.. When I see people work their ass off to achieve something that I don’t have to put half as much effort into.. I just feel like I’m an imposter.. Getting away with things i might have to pay for later..
And yes.. Seeing people who are suffering.. Can’t stand that.. I hate myself for not being grateful for what I have.. And for not being able to do something to bring everyone up to the same level.. You know.. Kind of like an equilibrium in humanity.. Where everyone has an equal share of happiness and suffering.. Everyone has an equal understanding of all that is meaningful and valuable.. That’s too big a dream I guess.. And it makes me feel guilty that I have all these ideas that I want to put into action but I’m never doing anything practical to actually make things happen..
Yeah a lot of guilt.. So you’re not alone.. I guess it is a Te super ego thing.. Because we are very aware of the fact that we cannot ‘do’ in the most extraverted thinking definition of the word.. That we’re aware of how we will never be able to accept the imperfection which is an essential part of anything that is brought into existence through human endeavour in the real world.. It’s something we’ve just got to take a little lightly by reminding ourselves over and over again that we’re worthy of this experience and that we’re all alone at the end of the day.. Responsible only for our own lives.. And by living our lives to the fullest (the way we choose, which needs to have nothing to do with being practical or trying to live others lives for them) we can help others find joy in their own lives.. I’m still working on this myself.. Only just started.. So the guilt driven anxiety is going to stick around for a while I guess.. But.. Baby steps.. 🙂
@Anna-
Oh man, I really, really relate to what you’re saying. Example, I live in a US city where housing prices are extremely high. My partner earns a lot of money and theoretically we could eventually buy a house even at these insane prices. However, as we’ve been exploring the idea of home ownership, I’ve really noticed myself going into a loop of:
“Cool! I would love to own a house.” > “But wait, even if we’re able to escape the gravity hole of poverty, most others are still going to be left in lives of wretched struggle.” > “I can’t buy a house in this city. It would be unethical. I don’t want to win if everyone else continues to lose.”
I remember hating competitive team sports when I was a teenager, I was a fairly serious volleyball player who wound up quitting because I found it so upsetting when I was much better than the opposing players. This sounds stupid, but it was viscerally awful to me. I remember lobbing some easy balls at an opposing team that was losing horribly to us at a tournament right before quitting. (Then I felt shame and guilt about quitting! Haha. Great.)
I think I have some back-of-the-brain idea that I am responsible for how everyone in the world feels, in a way that sounds crazy if I write it down. I feel bad about how poor many people in the US are, and I somehow, ridiculously, feel that I have an ethical obligation to save them. I get the same thing you mention, where if I find a thing that works for me, I feel that I need to save everyone else, and it feels bad that I can’t.
When I first read this I was being overtaken by the ‘swamps of sadness’ and was seriously having my first (and hopefully last) existential crisis.
I kept thinking how the fuck do I use this Fe?!
… Then one day I picked up a pencil and started drawing, then painting, and now I have complete understanding of how Fe work. Art is my Fe, and thank God for it!
Wow. You just described my Avoidant Personality Disorder (partnered with agoraphobia). This explains a lot.
I almost cried while reading this post. You have literally threw a lifeline to a sinking sailor mate. Whoever you are, god bless you.
I am an INFJ and having learnt about MBTI just a year ago, I thought I it explained my nature. But, I never dwelt deep into the functional space. I, as you mentioned, have thought always about my introverted nature to save me from my existential crisis. Pondered over all that has to be pondered over in my mind and made it a mess of sorts. I used to write a lot even when I was still in school and it had always been sad ballads. Whenever I tried to publish them in some departmental journals, the editor always rewrote my text since I am too much into, you know, strong negative emotions. People consider my feelings unpublishable without infusing it with the positiveness. I started to reel back then, keeping all those works to myself, guarding them like some heinous crime that I have committed (Fi). There on, whenever I start to talk my language, people opposed. They thought they ought to help me, give me words of wisdom and prove my wrong. But I had always known that no words are gonna bring me back. My feelings are like the halo around a black hole, they will stay there for ever. As much as I dread getting into the black hole, I dread leaving the halo and to start fake smiling in the face of despair. But you are right, I must not wallow in self pity alone. I just got to use my Fe – dom to just share it to who would listen. You see, I find it strange when a few INFP’s tell me that they understand me. They have no idea. If i exhibit my zoo of negativity and self annihilating philosophies, I imagine, they will run head on heels from me.
Do you know David Benatar, an amazing philosopher in South Africa. He wrote a book called ‘Better never to have been’. He is just the kind of genius re-presenter of reality in the lines of Schopenhauer (I am not sure if I spelled him right) . This book is heavily discussed for its authenticity and the impact it made on those life-world-loving enthusiasts.
I think I must not stop sharing my feelings and as you suggested, it may just be the relief valve of INFJ’s existence. Else, where would we go!!!
No words, just many, many thanks. For this article as well as the other ones.
@ Piggie
After the id article you asked something like who decides it is such and such function etc that is the one that some voice says we must be ashamed off etc….
Something like that.
I am wondering about all that too:) I think the answer is something like reality. The id comes across reality? Then one question is do the people whose id is less problematic for their childhood end up with a larger id monstrosity???? Or the other way around? Or is it all about the auxiliary etc….
I’m interested in the difference between how an inferior function and an id function differ when it comes to their manifestation in the outer world. For instance, INFJs and ENTJs both have Fi in a position where it can be turbulent. Apart from the fact that they’re different types and that their Fi functions differently due to the functions surrounding it, I’d like to know, how does Fi inferior look different from Fi id to the outer world?
Any id function is a private function, which may however seep out into the outer world in much the same way that you can tell where someone lives by spending a bit of time with them. The id function is like what someone does when they are behind closed doors and they are sure they are alone. Or with someone they trust highly.
The inferior function is sought out in the external world and from other people. I think the inferior function is noticeable as a polarity suddenly switching and giving away to its complete opposite in full force. However, the duration and sustainability is short.
ENTJs often project Fi onto other people whom they either love or hate. Extremes is a thing of inferior functions. You can see extreme manifestations of Fi in ENTJs. Like Lunar said, this could manifest as a fierce loyalty to a chosen few. Or it could manifest as extreme hatred toward a chosen few. The Fi might be displaced to a mate who can embody and represent it for them. And people are highly aware of their inferior functions in a negative sense, as in a lack in themselves that they are attracted to in others. Also, inferior functions can be used violently and in an oppositional manner.
Id functions are often experienced the opposite way, as a place where there is great vulnerability to being hurt and where one has trouble seeing things clearly through excessive subjectivity or closeness.
The inferior function is seen quite clearly but can’t be embodied and feels far away on the other side of the world.
One is usually loathe to expose too much of their id function to outside scrutiny (in raw form), however, like I said, it does have a way of seeping out. It has that kind of everywhere but nowhere in particular quality to it, like an atmospheric quality. Incidentally, the tertiary is the inverse of the id that way. It is nowhere but everywhere in particular.
People love to (or would love to) impress people with their inferior functions (and themselves too), but, the inferior function is kind of like nowhere most of the time and then suddenly it is there in full force unpredictably and out of the control of the ego-orientation (dominant function).
If you know anything about astrology, the inferior function is kind of Uranian, like a bolt of lightening that strikes suddenly and without warning and who knows where it will strike next, yet, it is experienced as scary, thrilling, and awesome. Fear and fascination, that’s the inferior.
“It has that kind of everywhere but nowhere in particular quality to it,”
so cool
@blake and @lunar, that was very insightful. Fascinating to learn about these dynamics, thank you.
@Blake,
sorry that I am always writing “wow I love it” I know it’s not useful to heap constant praise… (yikes..??)…
but man I LUV these descriptions of yours:
id-
everywhere but nowhere in particular (am trying to picture that for Te id)
inferior-
nowhere most of the time then strikes in full force. you kind of have to have respect for anyone’s version of the eruption. there is a story of a village where a farmer stuck his plow into the ground and a crack formed, smoke came out, and an actual volcano came into being. imagine being the farmer that “started” the volcano. so…i think there is something like that with the inferior eruption…because it feels outer but obviously it’s also inner, deeply.
I would love to understand better how the id and inferior interact. Because they do right? Is the id like the molten lava that oozes from the volcano, and of which there is more beneath? Is the inferior the plow?
tertiary-
nowhere but everywhere in particular (still trying to understand this one, but dig)
Fi id is more hidden, like a secret foaming fount that sputters irregularly, but is never quite dry, and every now and then there is even the most beautiful still clear water (amazing to see)?
Fi inferior is like an inspirational unseizable point? Like a motivation for using power towards noble goals, living life according to basic decency. It’s like the feelings and focus on human truth/simple joys is at the end of all your incredible prowess, but it’s there as a purpose and possible consequence nontheless. So sometimes that side is kept behind the ambition, but ultimately there is this sentimentality that can take over at any time.
So Fi inferior might feel more external to the person than Fi id would feel to the person?
So to an outsider Fi might look like more of a glaring weakness for the entj than it does for the infj. More people will be able to see it more quickly and more obviously. The entj just clearly has a bit of a fist. The Fi is not a hidden explanation.
To an outsider, Fi id of an infj will be more like catching leaks of a secret kept protected. At least that is how it seems to me… like “oh, I must look away”. It is like a hidden explanation.
Ask say something personal to an entj and they might kind of make fun of it using Te to hide the vulnerability (there is a denial) since it is distant “to them”??, or, rarely, react like very suddenly emotionally stricken, sentimental and overcome.
Ask something personal to an infj and woah….it can be interesting. They can give everything from revealing honest answer (surprisingly candid) to emissions of god knows what… sometimes I think of it as static on the radio lol. There is something more “at the core” about the Fi of an infj versus the Fi of an entj, even if both experience it turbulently.
???
Maybe the Fi experiences stick to the infj more. Just stick and add up.
For the entj, they can’t stick as well, because the entj will have to disown them more, resist the pull of the inferior.
So to the outside, the infj seems more saturated/filled by Fi, like a constantly partially soaked sponge, and the entj seems to lose control more from Fi, but not saturated, like the entj always squeezes out the sponge when it occasionally soaks to brim.
Sorry. Too many posts. This the last one.
I guess there is a similarity to both due to some degree of unconsciousness.
Maybe the accumulation of Fi experiences adds up to unconscious knowledge for the infj.
Whereas the experiences of Fi for the entj are more difficult to turn into knowledge for the entj due to the yo yo between the dominant and the inferior. Remains externally aspirational.
Fi of entj can look really pure. pure loyalty for example. stuff like that.
Very nice. Sentimentality, yeah. Like it can be an orientation for the ENTJ but not really more than that. “It’s really important that people cultivate and maintain relationships.” Or getting choked up at a loved one’s funeral, in a way that’s totally honest and spontaneous but also is because a funeral is sad and that’s when you cry.
And it’s always feeding through to Te, so with respect to other people Fi tells the ENTJ about values translated to interests– that person values X so they will do Y, respond to Z. I find that gets reflected in how the feelings of ENTJs I know feel to me: normal Fe isn’t much use, but they can be easy to manipulate if you figure out what kind of thing they irrationally value, because they really have no defences there and don’t imagine feelings as a medium or instrument. Sort of a puppy dog quality.
“but they can be easy to manipulate if you figure out what kind of thing they irrationally value, because they really have no defences there and don’t imagine feelings as a medium or instrument. Sort of a puppy dog quality.”
Yeah. Even though it has never occurred to me to manipulate them, I can totally see how that would might go. Their Fi vulnerability makes me feel protective of them feelings-wise. But carefully so. Because they are intimidating in other ways. They also are kind of drawn to Fi, like their eyes will kind of light up around Fi and they perceptibly shift their conversation.
Blake, when you say this:
“I think the inferior function is noticeable as a polarity suddenly switching and giving away to its complete opposite in full force. However, the duration and sustainability is short.”
…it reminds me of another comment you made somewhere that described INFJs versus INFPs in a rage. Like how the INFP might be more flailing in futile fury, but and INFJ would “pick up a stick and beat the shit out of you”.
Would this be some of that manifestation of Se in an INFJ? I’ve never been driven quite to that point, but I’ve always been aware of that sort of…capacity. It’s some feeling that, if someone pressed me far enough, I might literally gouge their eyes out. And a half-hoping in some irrational, dark corner of my mind that someone takes it to that level one day.
I also have an INFJ friend who would get into fights sometimes as a kid (not typical of an INFJ, but she was going to school in a rough area). Once she grabbed a chair and started beating the crap out of the other person with it.
I remember Roger Waters describing himself as being bully while young and I’ve known infjs who have that capacity to make it known they could hurt you. I know one infj who said he beat someone up to defend another, “showed him what he had coming”. You often get the sense from an infj that in the name of justice they could potentially get physical, since they experience emotional pain viscerally and feel more far-sighted than others. Sometimes you see it too in how they want to get a point across at all cost, some kind of Ni-fueled Se push.
Infj=batman sometimes:)
I know an infj guy, he is a walking batman lol.
Dear Blake,
I was perusing your site again today, trying to glean wisdom re: INFJ Fe vs Fi, because FEELIING is flaring up in my life again in a romantic context, and naturally I am trying to categorize all my feels into their proper compartments as not to fudge up what I think is a good thing I have going with… gulp… someone who I think is an ENTP. Ain’t that so Ti, though, the attempt to categorize my feelings?
Anyway, I was reading from Henry Miller’s Tropic of Cancer this evening—desperately trying to finish it because I only enjoy it about 20% of the time—and came across a passage that reminded me of you and your thoughts about Dostoevsky.
“Dostoevski was the sum of all those contradictions which either paralyze a man or lead him to the heights. There was no world too low for him to enter, no place too high for him to fear to ascend. He went the whole gamut, from the abyss to the stars. It is a pity that we shall never again have the opportunity to see a man placed at the very core of mystery and, by his flashes, illuminating for us the depth and immensity of the darkness.”
This passage adds fuel to your idea about Dostoevsky being an INFJ. The chapter actually ends in a really interesting meditation on “flow,” too. So, this was just serendipitous.
I think I am grasping the distinctions between Fe and Fi. Now, if only I could convert theory to practice.
I was perusing your site again today
Dude, I haven’t heard from you in like 3 years! How the hell are ya?!
Wow.
You do know I have a subscription site now and a forum?
The state of the knowledge has advanced. You need to read some of my more current articles.
What a trip. DKP in the house!
Hi Blake, another question from my side. I wonder whether you have read The brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky. If you have, I would like to know if you agree with assumption, that in the novel personification of infj’s (Dostoevsky’s) cognitive functions happens, so that father Zosima manifests Ni, Alexei Fe, Ivan Ti, Dimitri Se and Smerdyakov Fi-id (there also could be allusion on some twisted form of Ne/Te in Fyodor Pavlovich but I am not sure about that – sometimes I am under impression that Dimitri/Fyodor Pavlovich conflict represent love/hate relationship towards Se, but there is also joker/fool element present in Fyodor Pavlovich so I am not sure about this one). And the novel is about Ni-Ti loop dynamics through manifested cognitive functions – characters.
There are some interesting parallels with your Fi theory. Firstly, Alexei is in process of becoming a monk, to retreat from the world, allusion to introversion, lack of Fe activity.
Secondly, Ivan is unsurprisingly overactive and in some sense drama is about Alexei/Ivan POV conflict.
Thirdly, when murder of Fyodor Pavlovich happens, everybody suspect Dimitri to be responsible for it but it is actually Ivan who is responsible through some secret/unspoken agreement with Smerdyakov, who actually did it. So it is Ti activity which leads to Fi destructiveness.
It follows that Ivan loses his mind because of Smerdyakov activity, which would indicate that open Fi activity (with this I mean, that infj through insufficient Fe activity lets Fi takes over his mind) leads to corruption of Ti.
It is also interesting, how through all novel there is echo of a call to Alexei, that he goes out in the world, that he must become active, and that call intensifies in Alexei to its maximum in the darkest part of the novel.
Like Dostoevsky would try to call his insight, his call, his hope – that even when Ni-Ti-Fi drama becomes all bizarre and really dark and absurd, Fe is solution. Which is what you advocate.
Fe has to come out in the world. Or Alexei.
Anyway, I see some interesting parallels with this novel and your work. And I would be interested in your take on it.
The only thing I’ve read by Dostoevsky is Notes From Underground and Crime and Punishment. What’s my punishment for this crime?
Well, I would consider not knowing The Brothers Karamazov both – crime and punishment – former and later because I do consider it to be one of the most enriching novels ever written. So your crime is also your punishment. But joke aside, if it ever happens that you do read it, I hope you will remember this comment above.
Fantastic article, Blake! In your opinion, would you say the INFJ is out of an audience these days? Given how much people aren’t interested in hearing about human darkness (given how dark things already are) but instead want to be uplifted? I want to talk about darkness but I feel shunned for “bringing people down.”
This completely explains Adolf Hitler.
I want to explain what I meant by the Hitler comment. They say Hitler was the rarest archetype: a personality disordered INFJ. And if we add to the picture that he had NPD (narcissism), this article totally explains him. A narcissist fails to develop further somewhere before age 4. Now, that means, they don’t build a proper “ego” (I know you heard narcissists are egoistic and it is true from the surface, but they really don’t even have a proper ego). That means, he I believe was kind of “stuck” in Fi, therefore feared the whole world. Only people who want to conquer the whole world do it out of fear. “If I rule everyone, noone can harm me.”
I think that was the hell I been through what I called Depersonalization Disorder. Very deep introversion, totally terrified of mere existence.
I’m overwhelmed by the sudden slap of this new information as I just realised why I have been feeling the things I feel.. a week ago I was on that verge! I didn’t want to go on and just give up bcz I found no reason and my inner self was unconsciously eating me up.. after reading this article it makes so much sense to me and not that I was just the one feeling it for no reason at all.. I’ll try to engage more in my Fe bcz I’ve been retracting from it for the past few months.. and I have a valid reason for doing so. Either way it really messed me up, I found this page via miracle for real.. thankyou so much for this, I feel like I know myself a little more bcz I was tired of trying to figure up my shit anymore. So thank-you, I relate to this with every fiber of my being :v