Since last article on Colbert not being an INFP I have received some comments that have compelled me to concede to ENFP rather than my ENTP designation.
Why?
– Ne dominance is still there, just the aux. Ti I was claiming may be in error.
– Now that I think about it, ENFPs can resemble ENTPs similar to how INFJs can resemble INTJs. This is quite a common mixup. Robert Downey Jr. comes to mind. I’ve heard at least twice that he is an ENTP, but, in my book, he is ENFP.
– And INFP and ENFP can be confused too, but in my opinion, this is less likely (for me) because Fi vs. Ne dominance is pretty clear to me. Ne dominance is pretty unmistakable and anti-Fi in many ways. For example, Ne dominants can be glib, ironic, detached, not care about anything deeply, and even if they have Fi auxiliaries, due to the nature of the aux being eminently luxuriant and bypassable, what you are likely to see is either Te or Fe in id or tertiary position.
– In Colbert’s case I see no pull to Si tertiary. But I think the basic argument being made by commenters is that his obvious extraverted intuition is a persona and the real Colbert is a small, humble Christian guy with deep Fi values. I would say, no that is the Fe id of ENFP, or even, that is more Colbert doing his Fi aux. like when a rambunctious extravert, especially Ne dom. winds down a bit, they may come around more to the Fi persona (Or Ti in the case of ENTP).
– Another thing is that some people seem to see Colbert as basically a genuine guy underneath his bluster. Here is where I would point out that ENFPs are excellent at making you believe in their genuineness which is why they make such good salesman, marketers, and opportunists. Their method is to make you believe that they are genuine. Interestingly enough, Colbert stands out in his early career for being a completely disingenuous guy. There, he is mocking the right-wing type. I would say he is more closely aligned with his act than not. I would make a case that his 10 year tenure as Mr. Over – The – Top rightwing was him in his extravert loop and he is burnt out on it and now wants to be his more genuine Fi auxiliary/persona self.
– ENFPs basically stand for their own glory. Hot shots, hot shit in the corporate mercenary game. They don’t necessarily believe in it but there is the expedience of the extravert. Ne is predisposed to see things as a game. The ENFP method of playing this game is to put on a mask of sincerity, which Colbert did not do. Why? Because he was openly mocking himself, his ENFP self. There is a deepening of the irony there. Colbert is basically a guy who loves being famous and in the money. He makes fun of this aspect of himself which is so baldly showing in his character on Colbert report. He is making fun of guys like himself and got money and fame for it. He is also making fun of Te in particular which is his tertiary. Tertiary functions are often hyperbolic and comical. ENTPs do a similar thing with Fe. So, there is an aspect of himself that is making fun of dominant Te types, ENTJ in particular. Te is the most right-wing function.
But, ENFPs have it tertiary and they are not immune to it. They like it, pull towards it, like all types pull towards their tertiaries and are indeed noticeable for making a big deal about it in some way. So, Colbert overtly mocks it. Nice. ENFPs are often noticeable for being somewhat sympathetic to Te values while themselves espousing love and peace, or at least, just being funny, outlandish, and in some kind of contradistinction to EJ type values.
Now, an INFP type is a whole different ball of wax. They have Te inferior and Fi dominant. That is a much more serious outlook and primal dilemma. They don’t play around with Te at all. It just plain hurts. Inferior functions are like that – they are critical and hurt. Also, they tend to be highly aware in some way. But, it ain’t funny. They cannot be embodied, at least for any great amount of time. Te is fun for ENFPs and fascinating and fearful for INFPs. INFPs are often drawn to Te types. Colbert wants to be one and is sort of capable of being one in an Ne context, which means in a context of total non-attachment and fun-making.
Ne doms. are good at batting people around and keeping people guessing as to what they will do next because they themselves don’t often know. They are playing around, playing dress-up like children. Trying on this, that, and the other thing. They aren’t invested in any of the characters they might play (mock).
What is Ne dominant essentially interested in?
Keeping things moving, avoiding stagnation, new opportunities, new angles. Ne can’t bear imprisonment in what is already established. New enterprises, new deals, the next thing. They are great at establishing new enterprises with their expectant and optimistic energy. When the enterprise is already established and running well, they want to go somewhere else. That is why they make such great improvisers and opportunists. They are always ready to jump into something else. They stay as long as it is fun and lively and it seems there are still many possibilities for expansion. These are not stick-in-the-mud types.
Now, INFPs quite contrarily can easily be stick-in-the-mud types. We are often seeing Fi dominance with a pull and a lock into Si tertiary. Can’t get much more stick-in-the-mud than that. One does not get this sense of a great detachment and irony from them but quite contrarily, a sincerity that just won’t quit.
Now, onto this thing with auxiliary functions. First of all, auxiliary functions always operate within the context of the dominant function. So, to claim that Stephen Colbert is using Ne as a persona and he is really Fi dominant seems to indicate that people don’t have a clear idea of what Ne operating in an Fi context might look like. For one thing, it is a lot more tame and low-key than Colbert ever truly is.
Picture a lot of those alternative rock kind of dudes in the vein of Michael Stipe of REM. One gets a feeling of utter sincerity from them that is dressed up and made more palatable in the form of a gentle quirkiness. Essentially, to make it more interesting to other people. If you want to be famous and get your message out there, you have to be interesting in some way. Ne is like that for an INFP. It puts a sheen of interest and quirkiness on an essentially sincere offering and perspective. Hey, just check out Michael Stipe in an interview.
Check out Molly Ringwald. Yes, even in her movies. She always plays an INFP type character in her movies. Why? Um, because she is an INFP. Most actors play roles along the continuum of their type. Especially famous actors. Famous actors get famous because they are good at playing certain roles, usually the roles which are most like them.
Those two are more typically INFP. Pretty sincere people.
Now, go look up Robin Williams, Robert Downey Jr., Ashton Kutcher, Eddie Murphy, all comics in one way or another. Often renowned for being over-the-top spasms. They all have a quick and hyper energy.
Robin Williams is an excellent example of ENFP using a lot of feeling and sincerity. I say “using” as far as that applies to any actual Fi sincerity. He can turn it on and off quite easily. That’s auxiliary functions for you. There is also something manic-depressive and histrionic about many ENFPs that is coming from their Fe id. Fe, especially as an id, is highly manic-depressive. Just up, down, and incredibly voluble, expressive, and relatively undifferentiated and strong in the emotions it will throw off from one minute to the next.
One minute they might seem utterly sincere, the next minute they are bouncing off-the-wall and making fun of your mother.
If INTJ is the schizotypal type par excellence, then, ENFP is the manic-depressive and histrionic type par excellence. Ne and Fe together equals manic energy up the yin-yang.
I think of the “pressured speech” that I’ve seen listed as one of the manifestations of a manic-depressive in a manic episode. They cannot stop talking and their speech is coming out very fast and propulsively as if they are being driven by a motor that they can’t turn off.
ENTPs don’t have this as much. It is really a manifestation of Fe in the id combined with Ne in the dominant. I have seen ESFPs that have a similar manic thing, so maybe Se in the dominant and Fe in the id (ESFP) can cause a similar thing in those predisposed. EP in the dominant.
ENTPs can talk a lot and voluminously, but, it usually has the feeling of being easy to turn on or off. Well, not really, but, there is a difference. It’s the difference between Fe in id or tertiary.
So, my final conclusion is that Stephen Colbert is an ENFP. INFP is out of the question. My former ENTP typing of him I rescind. However, I maintain that ENTP is much more reasonable for him than INFP.
Featured Photo by AZRainman.com
“One gets a feeling of utter sincerity from them that is dressed up and made more palatable in the form of a gentle quirkiness.”
I think this is a really nice description for INFPs. Thanks for the comparisons and explanations and for clarifying how Ne manifests in the auxiliary. I think the unavoidable sincerity in INFPs that you talk about is key in distinguishing these types.
Also, I’m on the same page as you now with RDJ being an ENFP… 🙂 haha
Your welcome.
“I think the unavoidable sincerity in INFPs that you talk about is key in distinguishing these types.”
Yes, it absolutely is. Precisely the reason that I cannot concede to an INFP typing for Colbert. It is just so obviously out of the question to me. I would hardly understand INFP if Colbert was a member of their species. Even if we were talking more strictly about the more born-again “sincere” Colbert. If anything that just makes it more clear that he is an ENFP, a particularly clever one. I don’t believe that this is the real Colbert and all this time we have been under a mirage of his character. Quite the opposite. His character (on Colbert Report) was more who he is and the new Colbert is more an ENFP doing their auxiliary function after having been in an over-the-top extraverted loop for about a decade. Even extraverts need to come down and chill out after a fashion. They do it by engaging introversion of some sort. This is them balancing themselves out. It also comes with age. Hard to sustain that level of energy for anyone when you get over 50.
Anyway, thanks for your astute comments and your sincere openness in this article and the previous one on Colbert.
YES!!! The puzzle of Colbert fits together completely now. Blake, you have certainly sussed it out. I was beginning to doubt my sanity when I let things coalesce and finally had to acknowledge since the last time I wrote that his Fi is there. This dawned on me all at once, and I knew it was true. Yet, how? He was not an INFP and of this I was still certain. I had to give it up and was engaged in other pursuits, but how the heck did the obviousness of ENFP escape me? I had been bamboozled by his obvious Ne in a dominant position so I was with you in being certain that he could not be an INFP and sustain that level of energy and quick on his feet thinking without more genuineness shining through while he played his right wing character. I have no doubt that an INFP could pull this off for a short running act, but never for years on end. Excuse the digression here, but I was only considering ENTP as the other alternate likelihood. Yep! ENFP is right. I should have known that!
Have you considered that your take on ENFPs is a little harsh though? Your points are highly valid, but I would say that a fairly balanced ENFP is possible and these people can be perfectly lovely and decent. They are bigger than life and charming, which makes it easy to dismiss them as fake. Charm can easily seem like schmarm when it is used with manipulation and a person is selling truthiness. 😉 However, many ENFPs are genuine AND charming. They are all over the place and can seem manic just as you said. Absolutely! However, it is just the breadth loving part of their type to be so changeable. I would say all of it is very real for many of them though and not there to purposely deceive for their own selfish purposes. They just change their moods and minds at quicksilver speeds reacting to all those Ne shiny things in the world that capture their interests. In the moment, they are honestly feeling whatever it is they are suggesting. Well, many of them are. Certainly not all. For those of us who prefer depth to breadth in our thoughts, feelings, and interactions and would like to linger there and deepen the connections and make meaning out of a shared experience, the ENFP ‘s tendency can be off putting at times. We watch as the ENFP moves on so swiftly to a completely different mood, pursuit, or another completely different type of interaction and find it is easy to doubt if anything that had occurred a moment before could have been real. Often it was, but it is gone in a puff as the ENFP is captured by the need to discover and feel, and experience many myriads of other things. For them, time is wasting and they are on fire for more of everything out there. Imagine living life at warp speed and being subject to those types of highs, lows, and quick turns and changes. Still, they are genuine charming entertaining people most of the time. There is a thing such as genuine charm and to be entertaining does not mean you have to be disingenuous. Unless you are an ENFP doing the Cobert Report and then disingenuity is required! And we were entertained. Just saying, they aren’t all so bad. Like all of us they have their quirks and limitations.
For all that, your insights here (as always) are keen and I enjoy your genuine and charming way of delivering with warmth, humor, seriousness, and irreverence. Gee, could you be an ENFP? 😘😏
Yeah, Colbert is a tricky one. He had me fooled. I was for sure that the guy was an ENTP for years. I’m glad this whole absurd INFP typing has come to the fore (which, you notified me of), because it has compelled me to reevaluate a typing I had taken at face value for years. I remember the first time I saw Colbert on his Colbert Report many years ago, I immediately had him pegged as an ENTP. Never questioned it. And he does have some ENTPish thing about him, something in the nature of an almost absolute irreverence and truth-delivery in the form of clever quips and language games. ENFPs aren’t usually capable of that kind of sustained irreverence and ironic detachment. The seeming lack of agenda had me fooled too. ENTPs are particularly brilliant at not siding with any dichotomy in the long-run. They are a type that simply seeks truth in that Socratic fashion of questioning everything. What do you think you know, ya know? I will say at the least, that Colbert had me fooled in thinking that he didn’t really espouse the left either. ENTPs sort of hold off espousing any one ideology to further explore what may emerge in that absence. That is what NT types are known for after all – the lack of bias and the fair exploration of all viewpoints, without letting personal preference sully the whole works. ENFPs, on the other hand, usually have an agenda and preference that dampens their remove. There is more personal motive at work in them. And often it has to do with their own glorification as hotshots of one sort or another. It’s funny because Colbert was making fun of this very aspect of ENFP in his show. It’s like right there in broad daylight! Not hiding anywhere.
You may think I’m being harsh and condemning ENFP for being like this. But, to tell the truthiness, I like this side of them the best. I like people that can poke fun at themselves. I don’t like ENFPs when they get overly serious and moralistic and preachy and holier-than-thou. And often, meanwhile, they are on the take in some way while they are mouthing all these prettinesses. ENFPs are the masters of spin. They understand marketing like no other type. And they know how to make themselves come off smelling like roses like no other type. What can I say? I don’t buy into the whole peace, love, and flowers tagline of ENFPism. The whole popular new-age movement is their affair and I’ve seen many people buy into all their lovely dolphin talk much to their detriment. ENFPs are often full of shit and hypocritical, like the typical new-age guru who is telling people to live a certain spiritual and/or ascetic way and meanwhile they are raking in the cash and banging bimbos up the wazoo. Plus, they sold out the sixties. Remember Lennon’s disillusionment with the Maharishi. “Sexy Sadie, you made a fool of everyone” etc. That’s ENFP for you. They promise you all these beautiful dreams that they can’t deliver on and then when the whole ship goes down they are the first one’s off.
Anyway, I do me likes Colbert. And I like Jason Schwarztmann ala the movie Rushmore. Schwarztmann plays a character in that movie very similar to Colbert. And in exact same fashion I had him pegged as ENTP from the very start. Now, I see these two as ENFPs in high ironic mode as characters that are making fun of themselves. Schwartzmann in his glasses looks a lot like Colbert. There is a very similar energy and character to the one Colbert had on his former show. I think it is the glasses that does it. Whenever anyone is wearing those astute-type glasses, doesn’t one automatically boost up the T-type energy that may be attributed to that person.
I love ENFPs that are in self-irony mode. Contrarily, I can’t stand them when they get too serious about shit. They don’t do well as serious types. Their best commentary is on themselves. Oscar Wilde, no?
Nice breakdown! I agree with it. One comment is that his Si might come into play with his traditional upbringing and Catholic beliefs. I think the Fi and Si combo really comes into play with INFPs and religion.
There’s a more lengthy breakdown here, with a Google interview that describes his Persona a bit and also delves a little into his personal life:
http://personalitygrowth.com/why-stephen-colbert-is-infp-not-entp-in-depth-analysis/
Hello Blake 🙂
with regard to how a personality matures or changes with age, do you think there is an equivalent to the astrological progressions in the MBTI?
In astrology you progress to the next sign and their flavor into your own, but how would that manifest in MBTI?
Is it simply that you get in touch with your auxiliary and refine it? or maybe you start to develop have some balance with your inferior and less developed functional stack? I have also heard that some believe you can progress from one type to another
So.. what is more likely in your opinion ^^
While I do not think people can change types completely, they can progress (or decline) into other types within the continuum of their type.
So, there are relatively normative types. To use ENFP as example, some ENFPs are ESFJish in orientation, while at the other end of the ENFP spectrum, we would have an INTJish ENFP. But, they are still an ENFP. There is a lot of variation in one type, especially in a type with feeling strong.
Colbert, for example, seems to have a lot of T for an ENFP, but, nonetheless, I think ENFP is his basic type. One’s astrology is also a factor in creating this variation in basic type. To use Colbert as an example, he has quite a bit of earth and air in his chart, which would tone down some of the romanticism and feel-goodness of the ENFP type, in essence, making him a drier specimen of the breed.
I think that a person can change only within the continuum of their type. They cannot change to another type. They can grow towards or disintegrate down into another type, but, always within the context of their inborn type.
Since am still a noob I will use continuum examples that you have provided
ESFJ INTJ
ENTP ISFP
So I noticed there is a pattern of switching the letters to get the spectrum, except the fact that the spectrum was reversed in the INFJ’s case ( to my surprise honestly, seeing that ISFPs are dubbed as the artist type) , Looking at the functional set it would be:
(( ENFP )) (( INFJ ))
Fe Ne Ni Ne Ni Fi
Si Te Ti Se
Ne Fe Fi Fe Ti Ni
Ti Si Se Si Se Te
Looking at ENFP first i assumed that moving higher up in the spectrum requires working on your least developed functions, the lower spectrum got me all confused, except noticing that everything is switched.. following this theory INFJ’s higher spectrum should have been ISTP but it’s not so theory wrong
Next approach was primary focusing on the dominant functions, beside noticing both were extroverted functions for highers and Introverted for lowers ( Id nonetheless to INFJ ) I got nothing 🙁
Help, a few bread crumbs please
why does this make no sense, am I being too literal about it?
Man! after all the effort I put into diagramming my post it came out like this =/
hope it’s still understandable seeing I can’t/ don’t know how to edit it
I am using a very simple pattern to get the highest and lowest sides of any given type.
I’ll use the four intuitive dominant type as examples:
INFJ = ISFP low-side, ENTP high-side
INTJ = ISTP low-side, ENFP high-side
ENTP = ESTJ low-side, INFJ high-side
ENFP = ESFJ low-side, INTJ high-side
The id function + the inferior function = low-side type
The opposite attitude-orientation of the dominant + the tertiary function = high-side type
So, an INFJ has the ISFP type as their lowest state of expression (which is not necessarily to say “negative”, but, more “base” or “basic” or something like that) and the ENTP as their highest state of expression (integration etc.). The difference between an ISFP and an ENTP is the farthest you can get apart from each other in this system. It is similar for the ISTP low-side and ENFP high-side of the INTJ type. ISTP and ENFP are the types farthest apart from each other.
Also, I don’t know if you know – the id function of any type is arrived at by switching the attitude-orientation of the auxiliary function. So, INFJ has an Fe auxiliary, thus, they have an Fi id. INTJ has a Te auxiliary, thus, they have a Ti id and so forth.
So what I did there was writing 20 lines of nonsense lol
appreciate your reply 🙂
when will you write about Ne as an expansion, a love impulse, for INFP’s? I’m so curious 🙂
I haven’t forgotten. It will be soon 🙂
Don’t ENFPs sound like you Blake?
I see Ne ability to perceive others as they are (I actually think THIS is what everyone here is admiring in you Blake, it’s not the psychology it’s the outward perception). Maybe also your flattery/humiliation yoyo appeals to the masochists/sadists.
Your logic looks very Ne+Te to me. I wish I could even explain what that means to me. It is my curse that my entire thinking is “impressions-based”:(:( I should probably look up Te and Ti to really figure it out in “words” a person can use to think.
My other clue is to look at how YOU see EACH type. The way you see INFJs INTJs INTPs INFPs fits ENFP. ESPECIALLY the way you see INTJ. Doesn’t fit INFJ so well. Look how you react to INTPs. Another clue. No INFJ will react that way. Anyhow I AM cursed. Anyone who reads this and wants to know what I mean CAN’T.
But internally, what I am basically saying is my GUT is telling me each of these claims. Sucks.
Lunar
Anyhow…. to me it does not matter what type you are at all. Independent of type, I find you brilliant.
Apologies for all my cap letters. Ridiculous.
Hi Blake,
I get the impression that Steven Colbert’s actual main motivation is to make people happy and make people have fun.
Do you see that?
It’s like he basically is very caring of ALL ANY people (very sanguine)
I see him as extremely intelligent.
My brother is exactly like Steven Colbert. He is comedically gifted and gifted in general and everyone loves him and he makes fun of himself, for example, when surrounded by “experts” that way outdo his competence, he really likes to make fun of himself in a very endearing and respectful manner actually in such contexts. Steven Colbert does this too.
I think that Colbert is strangely egoless while basking in attention (which of course requires ego?). Colbert is amazing He moves me on a kind of deep level. I find him to be almost as lovable as you would expect esfps to be.
I find him extremely confusing to type. ENFPish or ESFPish in sheer likability/persona. Even INTJish in fleeting moments in deadpan-facedness/perceptiveness. He seems extremely logical at times in jokes land. He also seems ESFJish at times in his apparent concern for people to be enjoying themselves.
I sense very little corniness….. Don’t ALL ENFPs have a little corniness?
Also does romantic class stand out here more than say his being sanguine? If so how? How is his romantic class show up?
If Colbert is an NF type, which I am open to, he is certainly not typical in that sense. To me, he most resembles the ENTP type upon cursory inspection.
If he isn’t an ENTP, then he is a good masquerader.
Which may be the case. I consider Colbert exceptionally subtle and profound. Or at least, I considered him this way in his earlier days on The Colbert Report. Brilliant satirist.
Ne is typically responsible for anyone that is a brilliant satirist.
And Ne in the dominant position. In Colbert’s case, due to the extent to which this satirical attitude seemed to permeate his being, I would have to classify him as an ENTP, or as a somewhat less-preferred second choice, ENFP.
Yes, sometimes outlier ENFPs can attain the same remove that an ENTP has more from the outset and as a natural way of being.
Can INFP or INTP attain this same brilliance with Ne ironic detachment?
Perhaps, but, I certainly wouldn’t say as a typical trait of their character.
Could Colbert be an INFP?
Perhaps. Stranger things have happened.
But, does he appear to be a typical INFP?
Not to me he doesn’t.
If he is an INFP, he is not a typical specimen of the breed.
Is that possible?
Of course. Anything is possible.
I think the most interesting people are the ones that are hard to peg into one category or another. They become instructive by that virtue.
Colbert is hard to figure out. He is a mercurial type of personality. He likes to put people on, confuse them, defy their expectations and so on.
But, it may turn out that underneath that persona, he is basically a sincere and genuine person. I mean, I think he is. I think he believes in what he does and takes that mode rather seriously in some way. Their is a purpose behind it.
And now, he is pretty much tired out and done with that mode and persona and appears more forthright and sincere.
He had ten years with the Colbert Report and I’m sure it was like a circus for him. Even the greatest of clowns gets a little tired of being facetious all the time.
Clowns age and mellow.
So, I don’t know…
Yeah INFP seems a really FAR stretch to me although I’m no expert on INFPs. I can’t picture an INFP exuding so much energy.
“I think the most interesting people are the ones that are hard to peg into one category or another. They become instructive by that virtue.”
Yes and yes and yes!!!!!!!!!!!
Sanguine could be estp. Is there any reason to rule out that Colbert is a highly intelligent and kind hearted estp?
No, why rule it out? Let’s keep everything open forever 🙂
Lol. I think I know what is happening…. I think I am detecting whiffs from Colbert that are pinging with me. But have not been able to connect the dots to give the explanation of what type he is. I recognize a certain something that is related to feelings and something unconscious (I think) in him.
For example, the diversion tactics you mention. I almost see Se in that together with an inner sensitivity…… it almost….. makes me think of esfp who has Ni in fourth and whose choleric nature covers up a deep sensitivity. It could also explains those poignant fleeting perceptions you can see on Colbert’s face.
Pulled from the esfp online profile somewhere: “Under great stress, may feel the world around them is alive with dark, unseen influences .” Well sometimes all I can think of is through immediate family. My brother is very similar to Colbert and seems to straddle esfp and enfp….. My brother is an absolutely highly intelligent person. He tested enfp. I as his twin have seen since high school these dark brooding nightmares sweep over him. It’s like this thing of loosing family loosing connections loosing opportunities. I used to think it was Ni inferior so I always assumed he was esfp. I do find my brother pretty choleric. He did test enfp. However his reaction to mbti was so “hmm” (like you’d imagine a sensor first reacting, interesting “theory” moves on). You can’t ask my brother anything introspective generally…. hmmm. Anyhow. I do pick up this diversionary thing you mentioned from Colbert.
When you wrote mercurial… I couldn’t help wonder if perhaps that heads towards choleric actually. esfp. Just thinking out loud.
or even estp. Ni inferior + Fi (really low) that has got to give off very interesting whiff of unconscious feelings. ok…. i really need to think this through some more. but i am onto something.
I think your entp initial hunch was right. I can see entp more than enfp. There is a Charlie Rose interview where when asked about decency, you can tell Colbert is not on that wavelength of topic. It’s not about his own decency (Fi) but about whether his guests feel reasonably alright after the show (Fe). Also I can now see some similarities to Ben Stiller and a quieter type ENTP friend I have (just in the smile and facial use of eyebrows etc).
Thanks a bunch on helping to see Ne rather than Se. Has been an enlightening day.
Ben Stiller is not an ENTP to me. Believe it or not, I think he is an ISFJ that echoes ENTP because ENTP is the exact opposite of ISFJ. I could be wrong, but, that’s my take on Stiller.
And yes, I feel my initial hunch might have been right as well regarding Colbert being ENTP, but, to be fair and balanced, I conceded that he could be an ENFP as well. That’s about as far as I’m willing to go with Colbert – ENTP or outlier ENFP.
Lol Ben Stiller isfj? Wow ok cool:) food for thought.
Ben Stiller as an ISFJ. That make sense to me. Absolutely, as I see him. I thought I was probably weird for that. Does he have some cancerian influence? He seems a bit crab like. Not in crabby grumpy, but hoarding sensitive energy. He even is built kind of crab like.
All ISFJs have implied Cancer Suns, so yeah. I think he is a Sagittarius from his actual birth chart.
Not that it matters…. I know I know… but I’m now thinking Colbert is ENFP afterall. I think there is a soft-heartedness lurking there that just doesn’t make sense to me for ENTP. He is kind of reserved though. He is he like worn out? I’m confused…..
Is Ellen Degeneres ENFP or INFP?
Me thinks she’s a toned down, shy and relatively introspective version of ENFP.. but sometimes she almost seems INFP to me.. I have an INFP friend with Aquarian and Gemini influence in her chart and she’s got a wicked sharp sense of humor too.. I get similar vibes sometimes.. but just don’t feel like an INFP would be commerce savvy like Ellen is.. and there’s a certain suppressed Fe aura about her.. I remember she once said on Oprah that she was terrified of coming out of the closet cause she desperately wanted everyone to like her all the time but it was only when she started being true to herself that she felt relieved and happy.. That sounds like an ENFP thing to me..
Anyway.. any of you have thoughts?
Piggie,
I think Ellen Degeneres is an ENFP. Her overall presentation, demeanor, and energy just seem that way to me. She does seem to be introspective, but most ENFPs seem decently adept and drawn to introverted self awareness. She seems thoughtful, sharp, hilarious, random, and warm. She seems to be authentic, but self disclosure that risks the positivity and acceptance she has earned by the public may cause even an ENFP pause. They like “positive energy” and do not seem to like attracting a lot of negative energy. Not that most of us like negative energy, but it seems to very much deeply depress ENFPs who are drawn to optimism and happy things more than most of the NFs. It also seems to me many of them are pretty private, despite the “out there” extroversion. Aren’t EN_Ps commonly described as the most introverted extroverts? Anyway, she impresses me as very much an ENFP.
I don’t know if an INFP would come off consistently like she does or be so active in the public eye day after day as she has been for years. I may have that wrong because INFPs can certainly be funny, but I doubt many would be drawn to such a consistently energetic public presence. Besides, if we go back to the humors, Blake mentioned that INFPs are melancholic/phlegmatic. I don’t see too much that is phlegmatic about Ellen Degeneres. She seems far more sanguine than that. I guess it never occurred to me that she certainly must be other than an ENFP, but I am realizing that MBTI typing is WAY more subjective than I first suspected. Few people seem to ever agree.
Lunar,
Will you use your INFP self awareness and understanding of XNFP types to weigh in?
Also Prax,
You write about INFPs and strike me as having a very good understanding of them too. What say you about Ellen Degeneres?
Oops, I wrote: ” I guess it never occurred to me that she certainly must be other than an ENFP”
But
This is what I meant: I guess it never occurred to me that she could be any other type than ENFP.
I’m almost sure she is ENFP.
Thanks both of you 🙂
Rita, as is usual, you put into words thoughts that were swimming around in my head.. I had similar reasons for an ENFP typing.. Confusion was recently aroused cause I started noticing she doesn’t have as much of that characteristic manic energy.. But then, all types come in various flavours.. So I looked up her birthday and I guess her laid back air has more to do with her Aquarius Sun.. I was also confused by the thought that my Aquarian INFP friend is similarly hilarious and straight faced.. But I realise now that the sources and aims of their humour are quite different..
“They like “positive energy” and do not seem to like attracting a lot of negative energy. ”
Oh yes, very true.. Just like INFJs have a festering pool of negative feelings of their own, ENFPs have a pool which collects all the negativity they absorb from the people they are surrounded by, and they feel like all that negativity is directed towards them.. I imagine the INFJ pool to be like poisoned ground water.. harmful for consumption, but then it gets geothermally heated and is eventually expelled as one of those beautiful natural geysers, which can be used to generate electricity.. and I picture the ENFP pool as one being fed by multiple polluted streams.. no life can exist in this pool.. but over time, as the water slowly percolates through the earth, the impurities are filtered out and you’re left with clean ground water that people can drink from.. So ENFPs have to be introspective, to get in touch with their Fi.. Else, they are transported to a Hell filled to the brim with self-doubt and negativity..
Your point about humors made a lot of sense.. Blake mentioned their manic-depressive tendencies and I think that arises from this combination of humors.. My sister is ENFP and she has two faces/phases.. Sanguine Shakespearean Fool and highly subdued melancholic.. That combination ain’t easy.. The two phases feed each other and feed off each other.. The output is some really thought provoking art and similarly thought provoking jokes, but it’s very hard to describe the sort of loneliness they feel..
I watched a video in which Ellen spoke of her passion for design and interiors.. And my sister is studying design.. I think that’s naturally attractive to ENFPs cause it makes space for a good blend of Ne and Te with a dash of Fi.. Okay.. I’m digressing.. Will stop.. But yes.. ENFP seems right.. 🙂
There are more ENFPs among my group of friends than all the other types combined, as my ENTP partner seems to collect them. His ability to sniff them out and befriend them is so uncanny that it’s like his superpower or something! His adopted sister is ENFP, so maybe that’s why. Anyway, I have a lot of familiarity with this type, and am pretty convinced that Ellen is also an ENFP.
I could bore you all with a long list of my reasons, but frankly the video of her hilarious Interpretive Dance routine makes a better case. This was part of her comeback tour after she proudly came out as a lesbian, only to have her TV show cancelled and her career left in ruins by the backlash of hate and intolerance from the moral majority:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2o06mu
Piggie,
“I watched a video in which Ellen spoke of her passion for design and interiors.. And my sister is studying design.. I think that’s naturally attractive to ENFPs cause it makes space for a good blend of Ne and Te with a dash of Fi.. Okay.. I’m digressing.. Will stop.. But yes.. ENFP seems right.. ????”
That’s interesting about interior design and ENFPs. It actually does make sense that it would work well for them with their skill set and how they can be artistic and creative without Se anywhere in their main function stack. That NeFiTe is pretty magic for making spaces that are inviting and have a flair. It fits with what I never really put together before with the ENFPs I know.
I really love these guys, but their depressive side when it hits is ROUGH. Just last week I had one of bubbliest favorites in the world sobbing in my arms with body wracking sobbing heaves and she spoke of utter despair. It was wrenching. True to form, she’s bounced back with new enthusiasm in short order. Honestly, I felt honored because she usually withdraws and speaks to no one at such times, which is so opposite from her butterfly and rainbow chasing while simultaneously socializing with charm and spirit. This is utterly exhausting to me but so delightful to behold. I cannot help but love them. They are truly endearing and original spirits.
Piggie, I bet you know the ENFP nature extremely well and appreciate it too since you have a sibling with that.
Okay, I have a question about typing. What type is Lady Gaga? I just saw her in an interview and she seemed INFPish. Sincere, serious, quirky, sentimental, and in love with entertaining multiple concepts. Her facial expressions were not very animated until something touched her emotions and even then these had a pretty subdued element about them. I don’t know much about her except when she is performing. She did not seem weird like Bjork, Bowie, or Kate Bush in the interview. She did not seem enigmatic, but rather more straight forward and real. This is also consistent with one other interview I saw with her. I would never have expected to have INFP come up for her with her performances, but the interviews seemed that way to me. Thoughts on her?
Her sparkly eyes kind of make me think enfp. Not the best reason. But my brother is enfp and there is something about her eyes.
@ Stewart, my brother has the same hypochondria as your entp, he has been known to call in the paramedics for heartburn, and will double down as if dying for minor indigestion, passes out if he gets blood taken. I spent years mixing up Se versus Ne until recently stellarmaze discussions cleared it up a little. So I used to wonder if my brother who is somewhat tactile was one or the other. The hypochondria was what finally tipped me to enfp for sure for him.
@Rita,Piggie
I know an enfp who is an interior designer sort of as a hobby. She is good at making open and functional spaces.
Sparkly eyes referring to Ellen Degeneres
Rita,
Is this the Lady Gaga interview you happened to see?
https://youtu.be/lVMOAVkMcLU
I have never watched an interview of hers before.. But based on this one I would say that she’s INFP.. I was actually pleasantly surprised cause I wasn’t expecting someone so genuine.. I do like some of her music but her music videos never gave me an impression of a soft person (I mean this in an Ne-Si softness way)..
Her motivation for her latest album seems to be very Fi Si driven.. and her methods are very Ne.. She wants to bring all kinds of people together through her music so she says that the album has a bit of every genre.. There is a part where she speaks about having an image/vision of a particular kind of woman that she wanted to make the album for.. and while working on the album, after she recorded a particular song she burst out crying because she realised that that woman was her, who she would have been if she wasn’t Lady Gaga and that we’re all the same and the apparent differences between people are a perfect illusion created by the material differences.. I wonder whether that is an Ni thing.. when you see something but realise what it means only later when you try to put it to use through your creative process..
Interesting woman.. gonna watch more interviews of hers after I’m done with some boring family reunion stuff.. Putting on the Fe mask.. B)
Oh and I heart ENFPs too 🙂
Stewart,
That interpretive dance video was awesome.. Here’s one of her soap opera sketches that makes me lol..
https://youtu.be/abkZzGSOviI
I love her wife too.. I wonder what her type is.. feels like an ISFJ to me.. definitely IxFJ..
Lunar,
What’s the INFP-ENFP sibling relationship like?
“it’s very hard to describe the sort of loneliness they feel..”
This is true of my brother. I pretend it is Fe id for not really knowing what it is. But he goes through these episodes of fearing total abandonment by all near and far. Even his own family. Part of it is his family history but part is just his enfp-ness I think. I first became aware of it when he was a teenager. He would have these very blue experiences that were so palpable and poignant. He still goes through this regularly.
Lunar,
Regarding Lady GaGa, I have never noticed sparkly eyes in her, but rather a flatness to them. However, I have not seen much of her through the years so that is not to say she doesn’t sparkle. There is a detectable sparkle, light, glint, and spark in all of the ENFPs I’ve known. The light goes out when they are in one of their depressed phases. I guess I’ve never seen or felt the warm spark from her.
I watched another interview and she had a telephone on her head and she verbalized the desire to protect herself and noted the interview was being nicer than usual so she did not feel the need to hang up on him. Quirky, self protective, and Fi seems apparent. She wants everyone to be themselves and says that is her message. Maybe she is an ISFP? She is very hands on with her music, production, design, and has her hand in every bit of it. I don’t know what to think about her, but am leaning towards SFP.
Ooops to Lunar,
I just saw the sparkly eyes reference was for Ellen Degeneres. Yes, she does have sparkle and some electric sizzly energy. Magnetic beings these ENFPs.
Rita.. switch to ISFP? Is it because of the voluptuous sexual energy constantly emanating from her? 😛
Yeah excluding the link I shared, the other interviews of hers make a case for some sort of Se.. but noo.. she seemed so INFP in that first video in the way she explained her thought process.. that was too much Fi-Si.. or was it Si id rather than tertiary.. hmm.. I’m confused now.. she’s definitely Fi dom though.. so it’s basically about whether we’re seeing Ne or Se.. I see both in her videos (of course the craziness could come from just Ni too).. And Ne in her ideas and Se in her physicality.. Stumped!
Piggie,
For Lady GaGa, yes, I lean toward ISFP for her. I am not 100% convinced though. She is fascinating. Despite her thoughtfulness, there seems to be a guarded blankness too. I don’t mean blank in stupid or shallow, but something off or missing. How do I explain? Something I detect but cannot quite convey.
@Rita
Infp-enfp relationship….
I would say that enfps help the infps loosen way up and go the funny lane and can drag them into all types of experiences they would otherwise not go for and also to see possibilities–to see that there is a positive way out. Infps can’t see the way out sometimes, like literally, someone has to show them the light at the end of the tunnel. Enfps do this in an optimistic very un-frightful way. I think enfps are amazing at how much energy they can transfer to others. They want you to go for it. To realize potential and I think they truly believe everyone has some kind of delightful potential. I admire the sheer positivity of it….I can’t be that positive without drugs.
Infps can be kind of soothing to the enfps I think? My brother gets very concerned about whether the relationships are ending around him etc. Infps can give some kind of centering perspective about how relationships have certain steady aspects about them…don’t worry the relationships are not over, they love you, they won’t give up on you on the first difficulty. Or, enforcing certain requirements or imposing certain limited doesn’t mean they don’t love you etc. I am not sure what else.
I am always in complete awe of my enfp bro. No matter how trying he can be (he gets these “crashes” from over exerting himself days on end where he might almost be lying on top of whoever is there that is almost how invasive his breed of crash can be it seems…he has a very demanding career) he is a complete distraction. So much personality, energy, dreamer who then like just goes for his dreams with a kind of what looks like to me amazing gall and bravery. But it pays off sometimes in a way that wouldn’t happen if he couldn’t envision what is yet not earned. It is almost as if if he can see it he feels like he deserves it. His sheer will to make stuff happen had me thinking he was esfp for a long time.
Piggie,
Re: Ellen Degeneres
“Confusion was recently aroused cause I started noticing she doesn’t have as much of that characteristic manic energy.. ”
That is funny. My INFP mother said she does not like watching Ellen, although she acknowledges she is very funny and seems to be a good hearted sincere person, because she makes her nervous. She seems manic and full of “nervous energy” to her. It is precious and endearing quirkiness to me.
“I think enfps are amazing at how much energy they can transfer to others. They want you to go for it. To realize potential and I think they truly believe everyone has some kind of delightful potential. I admire the sheer positivity of it….I can’t be that positive without drugs.”
My experience too.. my sister is my number one cheerleader.. I think she tries to be everyone’s number one cheerleader..
Also very good at making things happen through that sheer will you mentioned.. Has a knack for talking people into doing anything.. Things like finding sponsors, getting internships, selling her ideas come easy to her.. And there’s that lovely persistence..
Lady Gaga…can’t tell if she is infp or isfp or another type, but I noticed she shows up to many interviews in sunglasses. Must mean something:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw1Xqf4HF_0
She gives a good snap of the fingers at 4:54. Isfp? Lol… is that valid…
omg what up with this megathread about ENFP all of a sudden? lol
How do any of you guys keep track of mentions of yourselves hahaha. If I didn’t happen to see this and start reading the new slew of comments, I wouldn’t have caught a question directed to me. XD
I haven’t watched that much of Ellen, but I do like her and I do see her as more ENFP than INFP. Although INFP might have the same sense of zany/quirky humour, they tend to have a “shyer” or more cautious projection of it. Ellen comes off as very bright and heart-on-sleeve, which is like an Fi-projection (Fi-aux compared to an Fi-dom/core).
I don’t know of many ENFP personally, but I think they are often portrayed in the media because they make for good protagonist types (go-getter heart-on-sleeve smile-through-troubles but will break-if-friends-turn kind of persona?). They have an authentic/inauthentic dynamic going on with them that can be annoying to me. They are sincere in general, but in particular, their sincerity is often approval-seeking (fe-id influence? which is annoying lol–I think while INFP might more be passively sad or retiring about not being approved, an ENFP is more likely to whine or go into denial/fact-spinning/gaslit memory–an effect of Si-inferior probably).
I ENFP I know or have been told about are probably the less mature ones, who if you get into any kind of critical talk or argument with, will tend to seem like they are understanding your side of the story or your advice, but once you step back and revisit, you have found they they have twisted every word and fact around to be what they wanted to really hear (e.g. “you should think about what you really are trying to achieve before just jumping in and acting/saying stuff in recation” => “YES I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE SAYING I SHOULD BE MORE BOLD AND TRUE TO MYSELF!!!”). Not sure if any of you experience similar, but this kind of thing is exhausting.
Every type is exhausting in their own special way though. lol
Prax, welcome to to the meandering thoughts processes of INF types!
And I agree that each type is exhausting in a special way. Don’t know about other INFJs, but I frequently find myself exhausting…..
“How do any of you guys keep track of mentions of yourselves hahaha.”
Buahahahaha. That is why sometimes the replies come way later, only once we’ve noticed it:)
@Prax
“They have an authentic/inauthentic dynamic going on with them that can be annoying to me. ”
Yeah same here.
@Rita, Prax
Yes, I was going to write in the enfp-infp relationship description that infps can help with that confusion the enfps have with what is important to them and the strange projections into the open of “virtue”, etc. But then I didn’t write it, because I realized that at least with my bro, I don’t actually know how to help him with it. It’s more like I just constantly note it. But over time, I have also come to appreciate the way it is “authentic” in the way that the auxiliary is authentic. It appears the auxiliary can produce infinite variation. That is certainly true for Fe in infj, Ne in inps. I think it’s true for Fi in enfp as well, the way they just orient to whomever is there, in infinite new orientation to a new friendship, project, ideal. Since Fi is usually more about stable ethics, it can look like lack of ethics. Etc. It used to really freak me about my brother…. but I’ve relaxed and just appreciate the version of authenticity in it. But yeah enfps need to sometimes just chillax a little and get centered or they can run into trouble. I guess honestly, sometimes, it still freaks me out, but then I maybe need to chillax as well.
“That is funny. My INFP mother said she does not like watching Ellen, although she acknowledges she is very funny and seems to be a good hearted sincere person, because she makes her nervous. She seems manic and full of “nervous energy” to her. ”
Lol. We all see things differently:) I think Ellen seems relatively calm compared to some other enfps (Robin Williams?). Even Colbert seems more manic. When he hosts his show and is standing, there is a tension in his body. In his case I even thought it could mean he is actually an introvert who has to triple pump to extrovert, although mostly it looks like he is an extrovert. Ellen looks calm comparatively probably because when you’re sitting in a comfy chair that is more likely to happen. I watched the interpretive dance Stewart posted and loved it. It was sooo funny in a way I can’t even understand. Hilarious. Makes you want to meet her:)
Prax & lunar..
Yeah the inauthentic/authentic dynamic is true for ENFP.. I think the disadvantage of an extraverted judging id is that it’s crappiness is visible to the rest of the world before it’s visible to you.. it’s so unstable in its reactive effervescence that it makes it harder for the donkey to pin the tail on itself..
When the Fe id is reacting to relatively friendly environments, it comes off as inauthentic because it’s trying to create an everything goes for everyone vibe.. half baked ENFPs use Fi as a tool to ‘genuinely’ want everyone to have a good time.. but they do it because they want to be given credit for it.. it boils down to them wanting to be liked by everyone all the time.. And when they perceive the slightest negative reaction towards them, the id overreacts.. Fe id is not historical like Fi id.. it does not compare an experience with a past experience and determine its relative meaning or impact.. it overreacts exactly because its going through the negativity entirely in the moment and does not trust itself to survive it even though it is capable of it.. it gets them really low every single time..
Authenticity, I think, takes a while to develop.. I don’t know any ‘old’ ENFPs, only teens to mid-twenties, and none amongst the ones I know have a fully developed true self yet.. they’re all feeling their way through the myriad possibilities of being.. trying on this cap and those shoes.. being a little bit of everything.. but I think that’s the natural process an Ne dominant would go through before settling on the best fit.. they’re afraid of being one person because that automatically limits the possibilities of existence.. it’s only after they’ve iteratively crashed and burned (themselves and those around them) that they find the one glued together self which has borne all the storms.. and the authenticity of that self is something that doesn’t just sparkle on its own, but sprinkles it’s generosity on everyone around, out of honest benevolence.. So, it’s when ENFPs start doing things for themselves because they want to like themselves that they end up doing more good to the world.. Fi, then, becomes not just a tool to elicit appreciation, but one that knows how to uniquely channel universal good intentions.. I think I see that in someone like Ellen now.. It took her four decades and facing her worst fears to become that way..
Prax, I know what you mean by the querulous denial and fact-spinning.. i guess the difference between INFP and ENFP responses to criticism arises from their degree of self-awareness.. INFPs know themselves better and hence know why they did or didn’t do something better than ENFPs.. INFPs would likely be sad because they can’t be a certain way for the other person.. ENFPs will instead feel sad because they don’t know who they are and who they should be (but this is confusing to the other person precisely because their disapproval would have been a response to some experimental assertion of identity on the ENFPs side).. These are touchy things with them in younger years because their self-worth is gleaned heavily from external approval, so disapproval is more like annihilation.. Fe-Fi and Fi-Fe id-aux dynamics are always gonna feel like visceral tug of wars on the inside and look emotionally unreliable from the outside, especially to pure Fi users.. 😛
“Oh yes, very true.. Just like INFJs have a festering pool of negative feelings of their own, ENFPs have a pool which collects all the negativity they absorb from the people they are surrounded by, and they feel like all that negativity is directed towards them.. ”
This matches my experience of the two types….I think. In any case, both types have palpable emotional auras.
My enfp bro breaks my heart sometimes….he can go from bouncing expansively all over this world to feeling lost and abandoned. He is the hardest person to say bye to at airports. It’s like watching him float away. He absolutely always wants to board planes go all over, start anew and then a part of him is like oh wait… neglecting the people in my life, being forgotten by everyone, etc. And it is like this aura all around him that is just leaking, swimming around him. In fact at airports, saying bye to him, he appears to have a cloud all around him.
Infjs also leak aura like of unattended guilt and shame, feelings of hurt and jealousy, desire for revenge, is the best way I can describe it. It’s like “take care of it, it is affecting you and it is leaking out”.
Yeah I feel pretty protective towards my sister too.. I wish I could heal her when she has that ‘lost and abandoned’ look.. or atleast suck away some of that aura of restless insecurity.. feel so helpless..
“Infjs also leak aura like of unattended guilt and shame, feelings of hurt and jealousy, desire for revenge, is the best way I can describe it. It’s like “take care of it, it is affecting you and it is leaking out”.”
This is interesting.. I’ve always wondered whether anyone who is not INFJ notices the inner turbulence.. most people don’t have an inkling.. just last night I had an ex-flame try to patch things up.. He got stung real bad and had no idea where it was coming from, because he had only ever seen the kind and giving side of me.. but these very feelings of ‘unattended shame’ and ‘desire for revenge’ exploded and ripped him to pieces.. the conversation ended with him saying that it was evident that I was putting an effort into ‘not being myself’ to drive him away.. and that just made me laugh so hard because this is exactly who I am, but no one ever sees it.. and that annoyed me to the nth degree.. aaarghh! So, thank you for noticing lunar.. you have no idea how liberating it is to have someone notice that heaven and hell are a package deal.. *hugs*
Hi PIggie, I don’t usually notice it in non intimate interactions with infjs but I know an infj intimately and she has that kind of inner pain aura. I say aura, because it isn’t like she is walking around with a sign on her forehead that says shame guilt hurt. She can eat herself up over stuff though. Auras are a very interesting thing….
I’m fascinated that this discussion has moved on to the auras of different types. I haven’t mentioned them before, as it can seem too much of a New Agey fluffy subject, but auras are what got me into typology in the first place.
It all started when visiting my partner’s ENFP sister after she and her family moved to Queensland in Australia many years ago. I was sitting next to a bookshelf (an INFJ’s favourite place 🙂 ) scanning her large collection of spiritual and psychological themed books, when one in particular caught my eye. It was all about how the colours in a person’s aura signified their personality type. The author had written detailed descriptions of 14 or so different types and included a personality questionnaire as she knew most people couldn’t see auras as she claimed to be able to do.
As a scientist I was highly sceptical to begin with, but completed her questionaire as a bit of harmless fun. And was blown away by the uncanny accuracy of the description of my aura type! So I borrowed the book and started pestering friends and family to do the test and see what they thought.
The general consensus was that the test and descriptions were very insightful and accurate. My supposedly rational and sceptical ENTP partner still says it’s the best description of his personality that he’s ever read.
But what I noticed was how validating it was for many people to finally have their personality type recognised in such a positive and non judgemental manner. I became aware for the first time of the incredible diversity of human nature, and also how so many people had been criticised and punished as children for being “different” in some way to the point that they believed they were somehow defective or damaged.
The author of the book had died, so I moved on to other typologies, eventually settling on Jung’s psychological types as the closest “scientific” equivalent to the aura types.
And eventually my curiosity about auras themselves kicked in, and after a great deal of study and practice, I learned how to see the subtle energy fields for myself (but that’s a whole other story…..)
Lunar,
I concur with Piggie’s statement and thank you.
To Piggie,
I have had such conversations with exes before too. They don’t believe the sweet angel they had believed was me could turn on them with a vicious scathing tongue and icy heart and said that I wasn’t myself and I was only trying to push them away. They were half right. Wrong: I was being quite myself AND Right: I WAS pushing them out the door. Done. They just didn’t believe me. There is finally a point of no return.
Stewart,
Do you have the name of that book and the author’s name? It sounds fascinating.
@Stewart
What is this book called?
Do you see any correlation between aura types and psychological types?
I sense auras too, but they’re probably not the auras you are talking about.. it’s usually an aura of energy and intent.. sometimes when it’s the bad kinda negative, I immediately dislike and distrust the person, even though they appear to be perfectly nice and can never explain to someone else why i feel that way about them..
Amazon still sell the book so you can check it out here, along with the usual positive and negative customer reviews:
https://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-Aura-Understanding/dp/0671707639
There isn’t an exact correlation with MBTI, but like the Enneagram there seems to be a loose correspondence between the Jungian functions and aura types.
And if auras represent the subtle energy field a person projects from their use of psychic processes (thoughts, feelings, perceptions etc), then I would expect that they are more likely to be felt than seen by others. The brain is entirely capable of mapping perceptions across different senses, so maybe “seeing” an aura happens when a subtle feeling is translated into visual information for someone with a strong cognitive preference for visual processing (which is certainly true for me)
Thank you, will surely check it out 🙂
Ahh like a form of synesthesia.. So instead of the common number or sound synesthesia this is like seeing colour when personality perception is stimulated.. and you taught yourself how to see this? That’s awesome! I would love to be able to have an almost instant insight like that..
Are these 14 or so types defined as unique colours or a combination/set of some basic colours?
Do places have visible auras too?
Because I feel place aura too.. what I’ve noticed is that the longer it’s history, the stronger it’s ‘essence’.. newer places are kind of bland.. by newer I mean something that’s been disturbed from its original state recently..
Places definitely have auras, and they can be very strong if the place has a lot of history or is on one of the earth’s natural energy “hotspots”.
As you say, newer places tend to feel much blander unless built somewhere interesting or if something dramatic occurred there (like a murder, say!).
I’ve always been sensitive to the energy of places – I love visiting ancient historical sites and consciously tapping in to the energy of the place.
I like thinking of ENFP as puppies. Always a little too willing to please for some attention/playtime, then there’s the sad puppy eyes when things aren’t going their way or they feel they are being punished. lol
INFJs usually come off as generally cranky. I usually peg them as intelligent, but cantankerous, and often at the mercy of their own emotions, which when the storm subsides they get all sheepish or contrite about it. lol You would think that “oh no, INFJ are usually so nice and willing to sacrifice for the sake of harmony, just so pleasant!”, but I think on closer inspection there’s a hint of “close to murder but smiling” about them. Basically a scorpio stinger hiding in pisces clothing. :>
This talk about auras is also cool! I used to be really into it, but I gave up trying to “see” them physically, though it’s easy for me to understand the synesthetic-mapping Stewart is talking about. I think INFJ are more primed to be able to do that since they are so connection between their emotions and Ni, which gives them a leg up in creatively expressing an idea/emotion/information through different mediums.
I did a quick skim of the book Stewart’s talking about (found a pdf online) and it seems like Violet or Crystal would match with INFJ well. Haha! Lavender for INFP. My own highest scores are Violet (29), Lavendar (28) and Physical Tan (28). My favourite colour is blue though, so I was disappointed, but finding out blue correlates to nurturing and helping people, I can see why I did not score that high in it. >_> Wassit really all mean!!
@Prax
“INFJs usually come off as generally cranky. I usually peg them as intelligent, but cantankerous, and often at the mercy of their own emotions, which when the storm subsides they get all sheepish or contrite about it. lol You would think that “oh no, INFJ are usually so nice and willing to sacrifice for the sake of harmony, just so pleasant!”, but I think on closer inspection there’s a hint of “close to murder but smiling” about them. ”
All of this! So true. I like especially “generally cranky” and “close to murder”. It’s a whiff that is just there and I have found a variation in degree of this whiff that depends on the level of intimacy and how much they have learned to “dish it out to others” for the sake of functioning? I love your description. And yes mostly they always seem intelligent to me. I haven’t met one yet that didn’t strike me as intelligent. I wonder what a dumb infj would look like. I’ve never met a dumb intj either. Although I know one who is very good at spin mastering but isn’t the best at what he does. In interviews he kills. And he acts strangely “ceremonious” at conferences and people just assume he is some kind of expert. And he isn’t. Kind of a rare sight. Competence through the roof is what I’ve seen most often with intjs or at least that is how they come across to my less-competent self.
Prax,
You found the pdf online? Well, I just wasted money and have to wait!
No, it will be the perfect light companion later this week while I’m attending to a dear family member’s surgery and recovery. It will be a lot of quiet sitting and waiting and then springing to action and trying not to kill her helpless insensitive husband. My aura will likely “be leaking out”if I’m not careful. Lunar, I will heed your advice and “take care of that.” LOL
@Stewart
“I love visiting ancient historical sites and consciously tapping in to the energy of the place.”
Me too! Especially places constructed to have positive vibrations.. modern architecture doesn’t give a rat’s ass about magnetic fields and spiritual resonance.. most buildings are so ugly.. and I hate the term ‘utility’.. I doubt future generations are going to look at any of these ‘modern engineering marvels’ and feel an iota of awe.. and don’t get me started on those man made islands in Dubai.. as if this world isn’t unreal enough already, we’re imitating nature now.. surely isn’t half as cool as creating something that’s in harmony with nature..
@Prax
Haha! I love your description of INFJ.. that’s what I feel like to myself 😛
I tried the test too.. and I got Crystal (28), Blue(27) and Green(27).. The fact that I got a combination of those three clearly shows how fucked up I am.. Crystal and Blue are pretty much the antithesis of each other and Green lies somewhere in between.. anyway, gonna get the book and try to get to the bottom of this.. new obsession.. yayy.. there’s an online version of the test taken from the book, if anyone is interested.. will post the link in a minute..
http://www.angelfire.com/art/jezabelle/youraura.html
I thought this conversation with my INFJ friend might have relevant insight for ENFP too–this is both of us reading the recent comments as well–please appreciate our amazing typos.
friend: infjs exhausgint indeed stewart
friend: he is exhausted by his Fi i bet
prax: HAHAHA
friend: stress poops
friend: Fi id is stress poop
prax: yes HAHAHA
prax: how do you help an enfp.. hahaha
prax: they just need adoring innocents to look up to them. hahaha
prax: you cannut help them, infj, infp, unelss you are willing to fake admiration and pet them and let them pet you
friend: HAHAHAAHA
friend: intjs are their ideal matxh, remember? lol
friend: well ive known a couple of healthier enfps
prax: intjs help redirect their needy focus into something productive, i think hahaha
friend: one of my best friends from college is enfp and has very much that “beauty and coolness of spirit” starman refers to i think
prax: while enfp help intj follow their hearts or osmething
friend: HAHAHHAA
friend: or somethinf
prax: take otehr feelinsg into.. consideration.. be less.. cynical.. or.. soemthing
friend: i think non asperger, healthy enfp can be very efficient and appreciative pf intj dryness
prax: i dont’ hav these types of problems as badly as otehr intj!
friend: enfp when inspired can be very good at working
friend: maybe good for intj to put to work hahahhaha
friend: put their inspirational starry eyed energies to use
prax: yes. a good dysta to put to work. i must understand in these OC concepts. HAHAHA
friend: HAHAHHA
prax: energectic. deal with epopel i dont’ want to
friend: enfps are REALLY good workers if they lik job
friend: work hard, dont complain, dont maintain dramas or grudges, and most of all they take care to do things well
friend: i admire and respect this in them
friend: infjs hit or miss. one day star worker. next day not show up for work perhamps. lol
prax: yeah. cute girl at work was enfp and i appreciated her hahaha
prax: but she also sucked up a lot of attention that caused resentment in more jealous girls HAHHAA
prax: for shames, for i am not that competent an intj
friend: HAHAHHAHA
prax: i yam like infj. star worker and also truant worker HAHAHA
friend: HAHAHAHAHHAHA
friend: i basically work hard only when absplutely necessary
friend: thats why i need tight deadlinds
friend: but then stress poops
prax: me too
prax: perhamps i am infj, nami.. ;-;
friend: HAHAHAHHA
prax: HAHAHAA
friend: YES YOU ARE INFJ!!!
friend: your amazing Fe and deep screamings Fi
prax: I YAM FULL OF EMOTIONAL IDS TURMOISL!!!
friend: HAHAHAHJXKXKHXBDJXK
prax: I AM DEEP!!!!!
friend: i feel thpugh like intj is complex at core
friend: infj at core very simple and stupid
prax: i think they are liek a maze at teh core hahah. ti id is a maze
prax: perhaps blake is an intj!! HAHAHHA
prax: the stellarmaze
friend: no. lol
prax: HAHAHHAHA
prax: blake this simple stupid mans?
friend: his…….middle layer is complex. infj middle layer is complex
friend: core is just screaming s
friend: either giggling in delight or crying in hurt and rages
prax: i want to paste this whoel convo to stellarmaze!!!
friend: ok but fix my typos if you post itm HAHAHHAH
prax: NOOO
prax: typos so fgunnie
prax: everry infj intj appreciate right?? ;-;/
Bonus INFJ analyses:
friend: i wonder how blake would react to someone telling him infj men have kind of naivete to them
prax: HAHAHA
prax: doesnt’ comment at all!
prax: pretend he is entp!!!
friend: like they are kinda sweetly gullible in a sense
friend: at least to women i think
friend: easily suckered by pretty sad woman
friend: infj women seem to have more angers in them
friend: their dumness is more deeply rooted in core and protected by lots of cynicism
friend: so, not easily suckered by men
friend: or quickly come to senses
Yes.. all we do is laugh and scream at each other when analyzing people apparently. I should have been more diligent in editing to make it less painful to read.
But perhaps this is how all INTJ and INFJ truly are when no one is looking.
Perhap it is the aspergers.
@Prax
I have known 2 infjs very intimately. A male one and a female one. And I agree that there is a gender-related difference perhaps. I don’t know if it’s gullibility but the male one was my boyfriend and he wanted me to be a sweetie pie to be adored and protected and “savored”. I was to be a very picture of innocence. He wanted to view me as the sweetest thing you had ever come across. I never felt belittled and he was good to me, but I felt that I am not that sweet as he wanted to see me and I worried if it blinded him to other ambitions perspectives of mine.
The female infj I know well would never consider someone to be all sweetness. In fact both infjs referred to the same woman we all knew in different ways: the male infj referred to her as helpless, and the female infj referred to her as someone with a girly face who can use it to appear helpless. Actually in a way they are both right I think, but there is a very different tone to both infjs.
The male infj, to use Blake’s descriptions, was more pisces, and the female infj is more scorpio. Both are fascinating and perceptive, intelligent people.
Hahaha that was hilarious XD
You do seem like an INFJish INTJ Prax.. maybe it’s Scorpio speaking..
And it was typical of your friend to ask you to edit the messages.. you’re evil 😛
I haven’t met an INFJ guy since I learnt about MBTI.. I think I met one when I was 15.. we ended up getting way too close too soon and I cut him loose cause i found him creepy and scary.. I wonder whether i would react the same way now..
Blake isn’t INTJ cause he tends to talk about INTJ experiences as an observer (probably, maybe, like, as if).. I would rather not know his type for sure though.. 😛
@Piggie, Prax
I consulted with Blake and don’t know his type…lol.
Wouldn’t reveal anything if I knew anyways just out of respect:)
I have mars and saturn in scorpio, with heavy saturn grinding against my leo sun and moon.
So perhaps that gives me a heavier Fi emphasis than many an INTJ.. (and also problems lol)
I don’t think very much in terms of feelings at my core though..
I more “access” Fi as needed for processing info. So I very appreciate INFJ instant access and explainations in their realm of expertise!
I used to care about looking competent.. No longer!!! I’d rather set low expectations so then people will be pleasantly surprised now. Help loosen some more reticent/serious/image-conscious types up some too!
But maybe I am just a very INTJish ENTP?? :0
(I do not think so, but I do come off as very clownish and chattery sometimes. Perhaps I just sway a bit into ENFP zone).
Lunar, INFJ friend says she does see the gender difference like you say of Pisces-like men and Scorpio-like women and that you are very perceptive. :DD
“and that you are very perceptive. :DD” That strokes my id baby… gimme cookies gimme more….lol.
Prax, what would you say the INTJ experience of Fi Scorpio is like? What counts as tertiary temptation for you and what counts as “just right”? How about Fi Pisces? It’s just so hard for me to picture an INTJ in the throes of Fi tertiary temptation after reading about this elusive, weird, alienesque Ti id thing Blake has described (and I still don’t fucking get it…maybe I’m sht000pid). Idk, like those two just, like, don’t *go* together, ew.
I have a Mars conjunct Mercury in Scorpio, so I can definitely get polemic and hot tempered with my thoughts and opinions. Actually I’m downright nasty and curt when I feel like I know what I’m talking about…I can imagine INTJs would be the same, but I’m sure there is more to their relationship with Fi in general…
And as an aside, I am about 300% positive Blake is a motherfucking INFJ. Oh please, what else can he be? He only ever talks about INFJs and shapeshifts his persona depending on the type in question like nobody’s business. Sometimes he comes across as an ENTP, but goddammit. ENTPs don’t understand Fi business, them shady-shit and all that nasty stuff festering in the INFJ psyche. Perhaps Blake is so adamant about Fe-play over Ti-binges because he himself had committed the same mistake when he was a young’un. And he’s not an INTJ. He likes the softer approach not the hard one. Plus, he’s way too enamored with INTJs to be one himself.
Schlopodoo,
Re: Blake’s type. I WOULD like to know, but it would not really be helpful. It is likely some people would disagree with the type he said and would say surely he can’t be that (as if they were an expert on him) and others would just pigeonhole him and decide that anything he said wouldn’t hold water because he’s just a XXXX type and of course is biased or mistaken or some other prejudicial thing. It wouldn’t do anything for him, for his site, or for the purpose of why we all gather here. So, I will let go of wanting to know, even though I do. I am selfish and curious and want answers for everything, but I care enough to let go when it isn’t helpful. It wouldn’t be. At least I don’t think so.
That was convoluted, but that’s pretty typical, because I am just “sht000pid” < great word, btw. 🙂
“ENTPs don’t understand Fi business, them shady-shit and all that nasty stuff festering in the INFJ psyche. ”
Is that how it is with entps? I’d LOVE to know.
@lunar
Well I’m not demi-god like Blake with this stuff, so don’t trust my answer, but my feeling is that ENTPs really don’t understand Fi biz. The thing is they are completely oblivious to it. Maybe when they get older like past 40s they will kinda get a sense for what it is, but at least at my age (think 23) hell no, they don’t know what it is. Try talking to an ENTP about art or literature. They’re *super* fascinated by that shit – agh!! so! much! info! to! process! food! for! brain! yes! – *eyes and hands twitching, pant, pant, pant!*
But they don’t actually understand a goddamn thing.
I mean, like the emotions, the pain, the nostalgia, you know, all these things that are infused within the complex, lush imagery of said artwork, or said musical piece, or said piece of great literature. They miss it, or they might superficially said, “Gah! OMG! So beautiful!” but you can sense immediately that they don’t really have a clue “why” it’s beautiful or “why” it’s touching…
But obliviousness to Fi is not a bad thing at all! That’s probably why they get along so well with INFJs, as Blake has mentioned before – and yes, it makes sense to me…Hanging out with an ENTP is like a cold splash of water on a sizzling, seething cauldron of scorpionic rage!!!!
INFJ: “*sigh* I’m not happy…I’m not feeling well…(blah blah blah, INFJesque cryptic complaints about the sorrows of her life and life in general, blah blah)”
ENTP: “huh? well you seem fine to me!” ho-hum (verbal diarrhea about something else for 45 minutes)
INFJ: *blink blink* (slightly amused, slightly annoyed, not sure what to think, OK)
I have to say, I really enjoy ENTP company. Sometimes I wish they were more sensitive to my emotions. Like fuck, I went through some unpleasant shit (we won’t go there), and said-ENTP would say, “Oh, no! That’s terrible! I’m so sorry! Are you OK?” and then would forget about it in a few weeks’ time…Now when I brood over his insensitivity alone in my room, I feel kind of miserable, but the minute I get out of my head and meet up with said-ENTP somewhere in town, all the resentment seems to melt away. They’re just too damn clownish!
Schlopadoo,
Angry flustered kid is what it’s like!! Hahha.
A kind of rudimentary idealism and indignation at how unfair/unjust/stupid the world is!
Often scorpio-like in terms of sharp intense desires for building or destruction, but because it’s a tertiary, is under better management.
Well, in Blake’s terms, having Fi tert (a scorpio version for healthier functioning INTJ) as a CPU is kind of like understanding things in a fatalistic idealism way. How does something compare to an INTJ’s value system? Like or not like? Funny or boring? Fair or unfair? Ultimately good or bad? Angering or pleasing? Want it destroyed or worth saving? I think the pros and cons get subjectively valued before getting sent back to Ni to then be sent to Te to “do something about it”. If INTJ come off as very blunt, this is probably why.. a simplistic coding/categorization is happening on a subjective level and then they express it via Te. Don’t let them fool you into thinking they are all-objective lol. INTJ love to categorize and love thinking they do so objectively, but a lot of it is just loving being subjective about what is or isn’t trash to them. (I get simple kicks calling things terrible or garbage. Hahaha!)
Pisces-like use of Fi tert in INTJ probably is gonna be pity-party and feeling bad about being seen as mean or stupid or licking wounds from hurt pride/esteem. Useless mode. It’s better for INTJ to just be angry/indignant in scorpio rages so they can fuel Te or something.
People may believe INTJ have low emotional capa ility and wish to steamroll/manipulate for their personal gains without feeling a thing, but they often are drawn toward some kind of idealistic goals for humanity as their act of compassion. I think when you dig deep into that Fi, you find the personal value will tend to be simplistic but a kind of innocence to it? For example, I like things to be fair. Even if I play around with pretending to bully people, real bullying raises my ire a lot and causes me distress and wishes to step in even if I may not be equipped to handle a situation. Similarly, a very elitist/pretentious attitude will also set off my alarm bells and send me into a desire for destruction of the source. “I only wish to destroy for justice!!” is my childlike justification!! lol I may have more intense Fi so it will come off more similar screaming baby INFJ Fi, but I think it being tertiary makes it more accessible and controllable. For example, I do not recall ever having a tantrum that I did not “plan” to have and release on an audience to achieve a certain effect. Even if I am personally angry enough to slam a door or scream, it’s usually after deliberate calculation that I “decide” to actually follow through or not. (Then I am also a heavily influenced by Leo, so there’s a performative bent to it too!). I imagine INFJ do not think of and use their raw emotions in quite the same way.
I think INTJ also often have simple ideals they build complex plans/frameworks around. INTJ art is likely the same, choosing a simple/pure theme and then embellishing on it or decorating it after. In comparison, INFJ start out more lush and then start paring down to a more distinct core, I think?
I am very sleepy so I am losing sense of coherence..
But I also thinking that Ti id is like stark empty spaces with sterile info, and Fi tert is like putting a personal touch like a bow to package that pile of newspapers to look like a gift to the world lol.
INFJ in comparison has a swirl of emotional Fi-id sewage packaged in Ti-tert newspaper and charts to look all logical and informative.
INFP got some questionable truth Ni-id going but try to dress it in examples of Si-tert like showing photos that could hold a “clue”.
ENFP probably try to hide Fe-id neediness/reactiveness with bluster about how competent and assured they are that ” things will work” Te-tert, but it’s gonna look like they are writing testimonials and reviews for their own product.
We all trying to dress up that id to be presentable with our terts, but it will always come out a little stilted or bad wrap job.. Not that some people can’t be fooled anyway though hahah.
Prax,
That makes sense! It seems to confirm my hunches about the role of Fi-tert in INTJs…yes. Nice analogies at the end. Cool.
@Prax
“We all trying to dress up that id to be presentable with our terts, but it will always come out a little stilted or bad wrap job.. ”
Lol we are all a bit wack:)
Schlopodoo,
What you said about ENTPs down to the dialogue and response seems so spot on. I’ve always suspected that I would not have done so well with an ENTP in my 20s. In those days, I guess I needed to indulge in my Fi id with an ISFP, who further provoked and agitated that hot seething mess inside of me. He fed it and fed on it.
These days, I am so grateful to the lightness of my ENTP and the freedom and breath that I can fully take without a strangling pain of suffocation and the constant threat of the abyss that seems to regularly threaten to exterminate me or in which I in the past felt the desire to exterminate and pitch the object of my polluted affection. The air is clean, heady, and fine at the top of the circus tent with my ENTP clown. I feel most often an exhilarated acrobat and know I won’t fall. Or if I do, it will be in throes of laughter. By the way, I don’t see my ENTP as a clown, but there is the element of the light hearted playfulness without the heaviness that is sticky and suffocating. It doesn’t hurt that my ENTP has a bit of Scorpio in his chart, which makes him a little weightier and aware of pain, without letting it slow his resilience or mine. When it counts, he can get it. When it doesn’t, he helps me to dismiss it. It isn’t perfect, but it is as close as I am likely to get and I can’t offer perfection either, and neither does he expect it. Sweet relief and refreshment!
@Shlopadoo
“ENTP: “huh? well you seem fine to me!” ho-hum”
It’s so hard to be upset about an entp… they are hard to mope around, it’s great for the moping-prone.
I had this idea in my head for a long time, unfounded and god knows where it came from, that there must be some entp sub-type that is quite psychological whatever that means. But then I don’t know how to reconcile that with being oblivious to Fi. It’s annoying having so much junk in the head of unknown origin. I wonder if an entp could be psychological without being depressed…again no explanation for that wondering either…
Oop. I would be the INFJ friend here. Haha! My typos…my eternal shame. (In my defense, I was typing on the phone!)
I do agree with Lunar that INFJ men seem to have more of what Blake refers to as “Fi Pisces” id versus INFJ women’s “Fi Scorpio” id. Maybe to other INFJ men they come across differently, but I find that all the INFJ men I know have a kind of – not “simple stupidity” as Prax jokingly called it (we talk in a lot of goofy ridiculous shorthand) – but a sort of childlike naivete almost? A kind of sweet earnestness and sincerity and idealism, which exists alongside all that cynicism and depression. INFJ men are rare and all, but in the ones I’ve known personally, they had both these extremes in equal measure. It’s kind of endearing and makes me want to tease them a bit.
We women have some of this too, but I think it’s a lot more deeply buried and reactive. The childlike sincerity I mean. I know for me I don’t show that side of myself to very many people at all.
Anyway. Back to the article. I stand by what I say that ENFPs are fun folk and, on a day-to-day basis, are very easy to get along with. Definitely agree with other commenters that they give off a strong atmosphere of cheer, goodwill, “finding the best in people”, etc. They have very strong, uh…aura output? If that makes sense. Like, they kind of set the mood of a room very easily. When they’re upset they kind of blanket the room in tensity and foreboding vibes. When they’re happy they can really lift everyone’s spirits. Kind of a purity of intention and goodwill. But then there’s also that authenticity/inauthenticity thing…
To me the most frustrating thing about ENFPs is that they themselves can’t really tell when they’re not being authentic. They might put on a big show of doing something for some great noble cause, even when you can tell they’re really just doing something for their own self-aggrandizement. And they will not be called out on it…woe betide anyone who tries to question the nobility of their motives on anything. Yikes.
And yet, they’re still, basically, very sincere people somehow. It’s not really a “deep” sincerity maybe, but it’s a very pure one…in its way. That’s been my experience with them, at least.
Rita, I feel the same gratefulness to my own pet ENTP as you have so brilliantly described. Especially this:
“It doesn’t hurt that my ENTP has a bit of Scorpio in his chart, which makes him a little weightier and aware of pain, without letting it slow his resilience or mine. When it counts, he can get it. When it doesn’t, he helps me to dismiss it. It isn’t perfect, but it is as close as I am likely to get and I can’t offer perfection either, and neither does he expect it. Sweet relief and refreshment!”
I don’t see my ENTP as a clown either (‘cos clowns are creepy and evil like Pennywise from Steven King’s “It” – Brrrr….). He’s more like the mythological Trickster archetype, of the Fool card from the Tarot. A famous and talented INFP actress/singer of our acquaintance once improvised a personalised story for his benefit and amusement: in the story she named him “HaHa The Sun God”. She nailed his Trickster nature then and there; and he was so delighted that it should probably be in his epitaph:
“Here lies HaHa The Sun God. Or does he???”
Stewart,
“Here lies HaHa The Sun God. Or does he???”
That is brilliant. From henceforth, all references to your ENTP needs to be “HaHa The Sun God.” You can switch it up from “HaHa” or just the simple moniker of “Sun God.” That is so great.
@Prax
Your analogies of tertiary packaging of id were so spot on and made me LOL.. I see Fi tertiary as a baby cute drama queen.. and INTJ do get a kick out of calling everything garbage.. Watching television with an INTJ is so much fun.. 😉
@Rita
With respect to Blake’s type.. Yeah that’s why i understand why Blake doesn’t like discussing his type.. of course we’re all gonna make our own guesses.. but fact will give rise to prejudice.. I don’t trust myself either.. what i accept with open mind now will start getting filtered through lenses of type bias.. and this bias exists in everyone.. anything we read has the element of oh he/she thinks such and such way because they’re processing it through their Fi or Te or Ti or whatever function.. makes it easier for everyone to discount the gravity or truth of what’s being said because certain type is not intelligent in certain way.. and so on.. I want to know and maybe I do know but I’d rather stay blind to it for a while..
@lunar
Do you mean psychological in an experiential way or an experimental way?
I think ENTPs are psychologically aware in a rational sense.. They are pretty good at analysing social relationships and finding out what makes people tick.. That’s how they expand their social networks.. By finding the common denominator.. They like spreading warmth and cheer through interesting conversations and do sympathise with someone who is going through a bad time.. Their form of care is provided from a safe distance and is usually in the form of distraction.. They’ll distract you till you’ve forgotten what you were sad about.. But they won’t experience your sadness or prefer talking to you about it in depth because they feel out of their depth here.. They don’t like merging themselves with the mucky psychological pain of others..
That said, ENTPs do get depressed.. I know four ENTPs.. Three of them have been depressed at different times in their life.. I don’t think their depression came from inner emotional turmoil.. more of a mental paradox.. and sometimes feeling guilty about letting loved ones down.. so yeah when they start paying too much attention to the feelings of others it can draw them into a downward spiral.. I’m not sure what the trigger point is though.. Maybe you’ve got something there when you say :
“I wonder if an entp could be psychological without being depressed”
Elaborate please.. even if it’s messy.. 😛
And the people who know ENTPs more intimately could give us more insight too.. 🙂
Hey Wendy..
“To me the most frustrating thing about ENFPs is that they themselves can’t really tell when they’re not being authentic. They might put on a big show of doing something for some great noble cause, even when you can tell they’re really just doing something for their own self-aggrandizement. And they will not be called out on it…woe betide anyone who tries to question the nobility of their motives on anything. Yikes.”
Haha so true!
I fake bully my sister into accepting she’s being inauthentic because I feel like it’ll probably be better for her in the longer run.. The sibling comfort level is strong enough for her to accept my truth bombs, which are dropped almost every time she calls (we don’t live in the same city).. Other ENFPs are a different story.. Gotta walk around ego-sized egg shells sometimes.. But I really love this type on the whole.. Endearing..
Rita, the uncanny thing about “HaHa The Sun God” is that he has Leo ascending, which in astrological terms means that his birth chart is indeed ruled by the Sun!
His natural ENTP trickster energy is further heightened by also having the planet Uranus in Leo, right next (conjunct) the Ascendant (1st house). I found this online description of the personality traits ascribed to this placement, which is spookily accurate for HaHa The Sun God:
“Those with Uranus conjunct their Ascendant are not the types to travel the beaten path. Instead, you will readily deal with the world in a way that’s unorthodox, free-spirited, and often challenging to more conventional thinkers and doers. The particular quirks of your Uranus sign are heightened, maybe even intentionally played up to of rebel against the norm. You don’t mind being seen as weird or eccentric, in some way. In fact, you probably relish it. You see yourself as playing a role as an agent for change, sweeping into situations and figuring out how the status quo can be turned inside out. Sometimes, though, having Uranus rising might make you a real rebel without a cause. You can be refusing to conform just for the sake of refusing to conform and to be different. When everyone goes right, it’s your instant motivation to go left. You always want to preserve your independence.
With Uranus rising, this nonconformist persona you create for yourself can make you appear quite unusual. It could be because of the odd, quirky ways in which you deck yourself out, using your appearance as a way to further express your independent mind. But, you might actually look quite unusual to others, as well, and not in a negative sense. The aura you create for yourself gives off the impression that there’s just something really “different” about you that others are intrigued by. The fact that you’re probably rather detached from the attention of others only heightens their interest. Uranus conjunct the Ascendant can have a rather edgy vibe which is counterbalanced by an indiscriminate friendliness. You send out the signals that you’re down to be buddies with anyone. But, the paradoxical air of a loner can also be present in your demeanor, as if you essentially always walk alone.”
Piggie, both ENTPs and ENFPs can be prone to depression as a consequence of having inferior Si. This is usually a temporary condition brought on by physical exhaustion or excessive stress, but depression may become habitual when Extraverted Intuitive types are chronically in the grip of inferior Introverted Sensing over an extended period of time:
Naomi Quenk described this aspect of inferior Si as follows:
“Withdrawal and Depression
Effective dominant Introverted Sensing types are in their element when they spend time alone in reflection. Processing their stored information is familiar and pleasurable, and they are energized by their Introverted Sensing activities. For ENTPs and ENFPs in the grip of inferior Introverted Sensing, the inward focus of energy is unfamiliar and disturbing. The diminution of Extraverted energy results in feelings of sadness and despair. Tertiary Thinking or Feeling may emerge as well. For ENTPs this comes out in a conviction that no one understands them or cares about them; they may become emotional and vulnerable in this state. ENFPs may demonstrate perverse logic and accuse others of not being rational, insisting that logic is the only acceptable criterion for making a decision.
In this condition, one ENTP describes feeling isolated, convinced that no one loves her or ever has. Another reports feeling hollow, turned off, “fixated on a narrow linear trap.” Another ENTP is plagued by an uncharacteristic emotionalism. “When things don’t go well, I resort to emotion to get my point across,” he explained. “There is a sense of feeling numb and frozen with no way out,” said an ENFP.“I have tunnel vision and lose my sense of time.” Another noted that when he is under too much pressure, his verbal skills deteriorate until “I become almost mute.”
Many ENFPs describe turning inward, eventually becoming grumpy and depressed and putting people off. Their Feeling side seems to disappear. One ENFP said, “I realized I had become numb and frozen inside— there was no light, no energy—just a wasteland of a landscape, and I was plodding through it.” Another ENFP described “deep depression and hopelessness. The most extreme unrealistic scenarios become real and factual. I will be broke, I will die of some dread disease, I will lose all respect among professional colleagues.”
Both ENTPs and ENFPs report a loss of enthusiasm and motivation accompanied by low energy. They are prone to an uncharacteristic, uncomfortable pensiveness and are unable to find pleasure in the things they normally enjoy. This may lead to self-neglect and, ultimately, illness. This kind of approach to life is particularly alien to them, for they are usually enthusiastic, fun-loving, and full of energy.
An ENFP said, “There is a lot more going on inside my head. I want to be alone to think and it becomes one-track thinking. Everything else is clouded by this one issue—I can’t stop thinking about it. I lose confidence in myself and doubt myself in every realm of my life.”
One ENFP noted that twice a year, in winter and summer, she regularly experiences ten days to three weeks during which she retreats into herself and broods. Others describe periods of becoming withdrawn, critical, unfriendly, and cold. Isolation can exacerbate this reaction. An ENFP who was forced to spend a lot of time alone while recuperating from a badly broken leg was put on antidepressant medication after a month of increasingly lengthy periods of sobbing and despair.”
@Piggie
“Watching television with an INTJ is so much fun.. ????” Jinx I just wrote something about that! Your intj dad must be a lot like mine lol! So! You have an intj dad like me enfp sibling like me and some similar astrology!
@Piggie
About entps…I think by psychological I meant kind of in touch with pain of self and others, perhaps via having gone through some kind of experience first etc, but… I put it out as junk that fell out of my head cuz I don’t really know and don’t trust junk falling out. I agree about the wanting to spread good cheer aspect and sympathy (and friendly well meant distraction I love when they do that:)) and also the ones I know are just so dammed smart overall, they do figure out tons about people.
Stewart: “Instead, you will readily deal with the world in a way that’s unorthodox, free-spirited, and often challenging to more conventional thinkers and doers. The particular quirks of your Uranus sign are heightened, maybe even intentionally played up to of rebel against the norm. You don’t mind being seen as weird or eccentric, in some way. In fact, you probably relish it. You see yourself as playing a role as an agent for change….”
Wow, doesn’t that sound the description of ENTP? He must be extraordinarily magnetic with that energy and the leonine influence. No, wonder you be all smitten all these years. 🙂
HaHa the Sun God! Maybe we should don red dresses and flounce around him. 🙂 The awesome ENTPs of the world deserve this as they inspire joy and freedom of thought and being like no other. Well, at least they have this effect on the melancholic INFJs.
Funny thing, like you, I can dance as an individual. But synchronized group dances I struggle with like few can. Even couple dancing. I don’t follow well. My body has no intuition apparently plus little ability to memorize movement with any kind of swiftness or exactness.
@Stewart
“I realized I had become numb and frozen inside— there was no light, no energy—just a wasteland of a landscape, and I was plodding through it.”
Wowzers. Spot on description of something my enfp brother goes through regularly and this started when he was in high school. When it first started happening to him it appeared to be also linked with fear of death, cancer, etc. He had a book about a degenerative disease I remember and he couldn’t handle it. He wouldn’t come out of his room. School assignments could also get him feeling very low. He just couldn’t put pen to paper and would be up night before still unable to put paper to pen. I remember during a final exam in a class, he just sat next to me (strange that we were side by side in a class…) just folding and staring blankly, he couldn’t put paper to pen. Painful to watch. As he has gotten older, these episodes seem to have shifted to more a fear of abandonment kind of. Like Wendy wrote, the aura around him is spectacular when this happens, breaks my heart each time even though it’s just an inferior passing episode, it’s still a horrible real experience for him. Guess that’s part of the balance equation for an enfp.
Thanks for the Naomi Quenk share Stewart.. some things suddenly made sense..
@lunar
“Jinx I just wrote something about that! Your intj dad must be a lot like mine lol! So! You have an intj dad like me enfp sibling like me and some similar astrology!”
Haha I thought the same thing when I read your comment about your dad!
INTJ dads, STJ moms, ENFP siblings and same sun + rising signs.. In Blake’s language, we’ve been dealt a lot of similar cards 😀
“He had a book about a degenerative disease I remember and he couldn’t handle it.”
My sister has a book called An A – Z of Symptoms and Signs.. and she loves watching shows like Mystery Diagnosis and Body Bizarre on Discovery Life.. I never understood the appeal because these things give me the creeps.. They seem to terrify and fascinate her simultaneously.. I think I get it now..
@Wendy
“I do agree with Lunar that INFJ men seem to have more of what Blake refers to as “Fi Pisces” id versus INFJ women’s “Fi Scorpio” id. ”
Just realizing that I know a male infj that doesn’t come across much as pisces at first glance. I don’t know him well though… But anyhow, he come across as a kind of anarchist yet justice enforcer (I almost–don’t laugh–picture a batman side to him). Kind of hard to put a 2 word description to how someone comes across. Anyhow, he has a sort of rough/rugged exterior. His speech is rough and he doesn’t waste time on niceties. He is very survivalist (I picture he’s already thought about how to survive in forest do you know what I mean??) and he has a kind of uncensored, provocative thing going on. My hubby says he is a bit of a trouble maker. I think of it as him embracing being an avenger. If I had to guess he is more scorpio than pisces but no clue really. He sometimes comes across like an intj too, except he is not. Clear infj with clear Fe (very people/conversation-skilled ) and whose had lots of experience along the way that has marked him is my guess. Who sometimes looks like a rogue lone agent. He just has that kind of aura even if he has a family which he does.
@Rita
All your posts since the 22nd showed up only now.. I dunno whether that’s a problem with my phone’s caching or something else..
“They were half right. Wrong: I was being quite myself AND Right: I WAS pushing them out the door. Done. They just didn’t believe me. There is finally a point of no return.”
Exactly!! It’s so hard to explain to someone how they’ve already thrown away ALL of the many chances they had been given when they ask you for ‘a second chance’ to prove themselves.. The river has run dry.. Run along and find yourself another stream.. It’s quite relaxing to play the role of stone cold ice queen after all the heat has been wastefully dissipated..
Piggie,
No, it’s because I’m on delay. Blake either is sure I’m an unhinged loquacious ISFP who needs probation or is trying to save me from myself. When I found out the two women closest to me in my life have cancer, one stage 4, I got drunk quite a little bit and indulgently engaged in oversharing of things unrelated but vented the drama I could not look at. Anyway, I do not get unfettered access.
Must be a mistake.. A most proper woman art thou..
Read about the surgery later this week.. Hope you’re surrounded by soothing auras and things go as well as they can..
Piggie,
Thank you. Honestly, the upcoming surgery is such a relief. One of them has been sitting on the cancer as a secret and keeping me from sharing it with my usual resources for quite some time now while she pursued “natural” therapies. I couldn’t mention it to the other person who has cancer or to my best friend because she did not want to be judged for her methods. I was under a gag order and I did not approve of her methods, but she made it clear that this was her way of dealing and I did not want to add to her negativity. I owe a lot to this person, but it put me in a stressed out bind with nowhere to diffuse it. I had to support her and listen to her while every fiber of my being told me she was wasting precious time with a ticking time bomb.
We all have our mortal struggles. My methods of coping at first were very destructive. Besides, Blake has every right to think or judge the effect a person has on his site. Even if he didn’t, we all judge and have preferences and see things in a certain way. Whose to say? Maybe I am an unhinged Isfp, but I know what that looks like better than many. I spent time with one I’ve known forever yesterday and his loquacious truth dialogue made everyone crazy. I can say for sure that I’m not one. Unhinged? Well, I acknowledge being off kilter at least! LOL Enough about me. And thank you.
Piggie,
“It’s quite relaxing to play the role of stone cold ice queen after all the heat has been wastefully dissipated..”
Yes. Quite so. It isn’t even playing, is it? It is very real about who we are with this person when done is done. Or so it has been for me.
Oh that’s tough! Keeping a secret that’s killing someone.. I can imagine what it must’ve felt like.. Pulled apart by horses.. A sense of responsibility to the person whose secret you’re carrying.. A sense of responsibility to the truth and being truthful.. Feeling irresponsible because you’re letting someone destroy themselves right before your eyes.. And all the while trying to deal with your own feelings on being faced with the possibility of losing someone dear to you.. The strangeness of sickness.. The fragility of life and life as we know it.. What is the meaning of it all.. Sometimes the hardest part is letting people be who they are and who they want to be and accepting that it’s not up to us to save them in the many ways we wish to save them.. Yes.. I would’ve gotten drunk and behaved destructively just to lose myself too.. I feel you..
And yes.. not even playing a role.. just being honest.. the coldness is just as real as the warmth and usually backed by good reason.. some people find that fake or feel like one side must be the more genuine of the two.. but such a paradox is INFJ..
Piggie,
You’ve got that all absolutely right for how it has been. There is more to the story, of course, but I won’t take up space with the details. I just want to let you know that I appreciate your kindness. Getting drunk and writing on the internet is not my usual way of being. Not at all.
As for the paradox of INFJs. Yep to “the coldness is just as real as the warmth and usually backed by good reason.” Absolutely. Usually multiple good reasons, I think! If they had eyes or ears, they would recognize this, but sometimes people seem to need to be hit in the head with a bat (not literally), because they don’t pay attention to what has been communicated until the door has already closed. Too bad. It is not fun on either side of the door, but it cannot be opened again. The grief started before the final click. The click coincided with the scab that is beginning to form over the wound of grief that was made some time before. What sane person would want to rip that off just to have to start over? Well, that’s the way I see it anyway. It may seem fake to others, but to me, this is about as real as it gets.
“The grief started before the final click. The click coincided with the scab that is beginning to form over the wound of grief that was made some time before. What sane person would want to rip that off just to have to start over?”
Thanks for getting it 🙂
To Prax:
“For example, I do not recall ever having a tantrum that I did not “plan” to have and release on an audience to achieve a certain effect. Even if I am personally angry enough to slam a door or scream, it’s usually after deliberate calculation that I “decide” to actually follow through or not. ”
That is awesome to be so in control with a plan to explode or tantrum for a “certain effect.” When it has happened to me, I have always been stunned, “did I really say or do that?” Even in those slivers of clarity in the midst of an emotional episode where I realize “I’m going to have a shame hang over” or “this isn’t helpful” the glint of this is not enough to stop. Not that I go around tantruming much ever, but I have had some doozies through these decades. I have unleashed some heaps of venom in the iciest of ways. I am always deeply ashamed, but at the same time, there is often a part of me that hangs on to justification. “They deserved it” …..”if they hadn’t done or said that, I wouldn’t have …..” Seriously, it really happens very very seldom now, but the after effects are so not worth it and they only feed the shame/blame monster inside. Not that I’m a monster generally, but there is certainly a pretty hefty ability to act a good approximation of one. Knowledge of that is most humbling and annoying. Ggggggrrrrrr! Stupid really, if I were to use INTJ language. I notice that judgments such as “stupid” are common with INTJs. Even when they don’t verbalize that, they often say something just like that one way or another. Or it seems that way to me. In this case, I agree that my dark monstrous part is “stupid” no matter how loud and thrashing it is inside, or how logical its expression may sound when it’s being expressed in a cold rage or in a leaky fit.
You’re right. INTJ love calling things stupid (I started using the word “dums” a lot). I think it’s a superiority complex defense mechanism–also I think we just love categorizing like that.. it’s a fun time to be able to organize the absurd chaos of life.
Ooh, I do know of one area that hits me in the feelings very well and causes me to react out of control–but I think it hits a well of pisces crying.. hahha.
It’s when I see things that have to do with inspirational messages, usually to do with existential idealisms or valuations about life, potential, innocence and wonderment. Often to do with babies for me, for I love children and their potentials–at least in theory hahaha.
Like those Thai commercials? Maybe other find them corny/contrived but it PUNCHES ME RIGHT IN THE FISH.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dtca6ENbww (TW: cancer, SAD!)
omg my stupid feelings.. I didn’t see that one yet.. I am CRYING!! Q___Q (EVERYONE WATCH IT, IT MAKES THE NEXT JOKE FUNNIER)
Husband (I think he infp?? haha): You crying??
me: YESS!! I am weak to these!!! :’0 *sniffles*
Husband: *hands tissue* I help you like sister! :DD
I think most INTJ have some “secret” soft spot like that, where they nurture this object of appeal. It will be cute animals or babies or plants or tiny porcelain figures or something. Perhaps it’s where they can store/vent a lot of their feelings of child-like ideals and then go back to looking tough otherwise.
The best part is that it’s a commercial for a Bank Loan, a Closed Circuit Security System, a fax/copier/printer company, life insurance, etc lol Commercials disguised as 5-10minute human interest stories, but I let it affect me anyway. Feelings capitalism at its finest.
“You’re right. INTJ love calling things stupid (I started using the word “dums” a lot).”
Lol that’s like my intj dad’s every other sentence. Lots of “idiot..” when he listens to radio, watches tv, etc….I think he can’t believe the dumb things people say.
Prax,
That commercial kills me. Of course, it is really really close to home. I can’t say whether or not it would generally or not. I would probably be pissed off that it was pulling at heartstrings to sell something. Whereas with Hallmark commercials I have no such feeling about and allow myself to be tugged in because we buy cards for others that speak to the heart. No, I am pretty sure it was a timing thing. The digital story went along with the analogue experience of my current reality and made me bawl.
Regarding babies, advertisements with those don’t touch me so much. Maybe I don’t have much in the way of maternal feeling. Although I do like children, but prefer mouthy teens. Babies are too helpless, too squalling, and soft squishy leaky creatures. My INFP mother likes babies and small children too, but has trouble with mouthy teens. Funny how we are all so different and have different kryptonite for dissolving us to the bone and ripping into the muscle of our hearts.
“I’m gonna harden my heart. I’m gonna swallow my tears…” Suddenly, I feel the need for a girl power anthem. Sniff sniff.
@Rita
I’ve always been fascinated with teenagers. They want some parenting still and yet want to poopoo on it as a necessary assertive phase. It’s such a yo yo for some of them. My students are basically just teenagers even though they are freshmen in college. But I don’t have your average students…. mine are particularly immature…
@Prax
Your little newspaper imagery gave me a caffeine buzz, yey.
You wrote about scorpio Fi being more functional for an intj. (which I didn’t know was the case for intj, new stuff to think about!)
Jesus, this thread exploded. Doesn’t help that I probably live in a different time zone than all you lot.
Prax,
Going back to INTJs. Was wondering what exactly is Te play for you? I mean, Te and play just don’t seem to go together, especially the Gemini sort of Te. Fuck, I just don’t get you INTJs. Sure, you channel Aquarian Ti through building new systems and thought (Te Gemini) that “change the world.” But that doesn’t just happen overnight, now does it? Like Blake encourages INFJs to do some stream-of-consciousness writing via Te minimums to get started with engaging in Fe flow. Now what the fuck is the analogous solution to INTJs’ tertiary temptation conundrum? What exactly are their “Fe minimums” here and how does Te play fit in? It just doesn’t make sense to me. 🙂
Maybe it’s interacting with the world instead of hiding like a hermit crab? And revealing all your solutions, thoughts, and suggestions in doing so?
Schlopadoo,
I think you can think of Te play as like “unlocking achievements” or any kind of reward/trophies/recognition for completing a task or making progress in thing like videogames–but in real life. That is the easiest analogy where people will see that Te becomes “fun” or magic for Te-aux (and Te-dom and probably Te-id) people. I think Te-aux are more likely to map this out as what they will perceive to be “substantial” achievements that will improve their life or help them meet a lifegoal. I think for ENTJ, who have it as their dominant, they do it for the sake of itself (they like being right, they like having a new thing to achieve, they like winning etc–not that INTJ don’t also like these things, but I think ENTJ live and breathe it more).
Me for example, I really enjoyed collecting credentials/good grades when I was younger and even had a binder that I labelled as “achievements & recognition” to collect all my awards or whatever lol. How nice, a chronological and categorized stack of progress.
I also like seeing things “done” or “getting done” . It brings me comfort to see a drawing finished (even of not polished) or sitting down and filling my charts every week to see how my budget or investments are going. Even if I don’t follow my “life plans” exactly, just having one laid out with precise dates & calculations, I feel at ease as I can work toward and around it as needed. Blake described in an article as the linear track of Te compared to Fe windings.
Apparently this is a lot different than what many people, especially INFJ, enjoy thinking about and doing!
Te-minimums for me are like you say: actually acknowledging other people exist and having some sense of social/communication skill (be polite, compromise on basic level, forgive or have semblance of patience). INTJ are often loathe to interact with anyonethey do not think are “useful” (or at least entertaining), but the thing is, people will get in your way to achieving Te goals if you are a jerk! Fe-minimums are also required to really get Te goals into gear via delegating tasks to others. A lone INTJ does not have the energy usually to build and be the entire system they envision, much to their chagrin. They must involve other people. A hard lesson learned for some!
@Prax
I relate to this:) except that the way it happens for me is in an insane sweeping moment and then I crash. I reach a point where I want to see “done”. A desperation. And I become like an insane person.
The other version is I am calm and do “tiny” Te activities and it is really fun, I dream up ways to improve efficiency at home, well because there is little of it in our home lol, or in the office etc. It is really relaxing.
@Prax
I relate to this:) except that the way it happens for me is in an insane sweeping moment and then I crash. I reach a point where I want to see “done”. A desperation. And I become like an insane person.
The other version is I am calm and do “tiny” Te activities and it is really fun, I dream up ways to improve efficiency at home, well because there is little of it in our home lol, or in the office etc. It is really relaxing. “Teenie Te” is all I can do. It is like a pathetic local puny version of what Te users can do.
Schlopodoo and Prax,
This was helpful to understand the INTJ process. It is different from INFJ operation to be sure.
Te of all things functioning cognitively is something that is hard for me to get a passion for within myself to do. It is also something I admire greatly in those who do it. Budgets, charts, and binders sound fabulous until I have to fashion one and consistently use them. My eyes glaze over and I want to throw them at those who insist they are necessary to create and do. Not at INTJs, who are good and drawn to them. This I admire! I might want to throw these at ENTJs though, because I can be destructive like that! I tend to want to move far far away from those guys instinctively.
Te minimums is something I’ve used in ways beyond what Blake suggests forever. A timer for doing a hated task is something I use a lot, for example. It creates a time pressure that is both motivating and limited in duration.
So, that brings me to a Piggie question about types relationship to time question that has been operating in the background since she asked it. Prax, do you have any insights on how you INTJs experience time?
I hope you all know I meant to write Fe-minimums in the beginning of my last paragraph. :>
Lunar,
Hahah I also do tiny Te’s then burn out too because like I have mentioned in the chat with my friend, I am a bit incompetent and irresponsible as an INTJ. (I would like to blame astrology or aspergers perhaps, but maybe I am just plain incompetent. lol–it okay.. i.. enjoy life mostly..).
INFP have Te as inferior, so you should use it when having fun, otherwise it becomes a grip state insanity that is overwhelming, right? I know the INFP in my life try their best to “get their life together” but they burn out so fast, while if they are just doing something for enjoyment and it happens to be Te-like in productivity at the same time, they can go on for a while.
Rita,
I feel like I personally have a very loose attachment to the concept of time. Though I like meeting deadlines (or at least they in theory are important to me), if I do not have tasks structured out well with time markers, time to me is experienced as a giant “blob” and blur.
I feel like I have bad episodic memory. I am not great about remembering things as they happened in sequential order or even the correct dates relative to one another, but I’ll retain general facts and impressions (more semantic memory!). I don’t even remember sometimes if something happened a week, a month, a year, or a decade ago! I think I read over some of the INFJ experiences being similar! That Si lack in us doing this?
I think this is why Te is important for INTJ. It keeps a “record” of sorts to make time a concrete thing. “How do I know I really existed in the past.. or am really existing now” “..Well it’s all right here. These achievements and reports didn’t just make themselves..!”
I also do that with art. I like dating all my artwork and keeping and filing them. When I look back on them, I can almost remember the same thoughts I had as I made the lines, the contemplation about the world, the characters, how it might have related to my life at the time. Something, like a diary, I couldn’t keep up with because I didn’t see the point of writing down what was routine or “feelings”, but art and projects hold my “ideas”, and the chronology and record of that is important for me.
That said, I am also a huge procrastinator. School taught me too well and I began gaming my time to spend the least time I could to still get acceptable grades and it’s hard to break that habit now so I always wistfully think about how nice my pet projects will get done some time 40 years from now..
“otherwise it becomes a grip state insanity that is overwhelming, right? ”
Um, yes. Do you know this GTD movement (“getting this done”)? Nearly ruined my life:) I tried it compulsively for something like 3 months. Never again.
“I think this is why Te is important for INTJ. It keeps a “record” of sorts to make time a concrete thing” “These ….. didn’t just make themselves.”
Difficulty with sequential and episodic memory. Yep. “Did I even exist in the past?”
This is interesting and somewhat relatable to me. The difference is that the records of random thoughts and feelings that I keep, often amaze me. I wrote this? That was kind of cool. Was that really me? I don’t remember this but in general impressions but are foreign.
So my thought is this: because memory is thought to be best seated by emotion and your Te is more highly considered along with “universal?” time of Ni, which is not a very linear or a concrete thing. It makes sense that clear concrete sequential ordered memory is not so much there. With INFJs a similar thing will occur if using Fe (in the tradional way or in creative expression as Blake suggests). It is in the moment, released, and gone. The memories are coalesced and stored away somewhere and somehow I suppose but they are vague and impressionistic but not detailed in first this,then that, then…. Fe in the tradional sense is about group harmony and it is broadly but not deeply emotional and reduces or dismisses (overrides) one’s own Fi response, so the memory does not get sealed in or embedded in the same way. Maybe?
The theme of time perception and memory access is cropping up in a lot of our discussions recently. In another thread I offered to share some insights on this topic from an NLP perspective, so when I have some spare time I’ll hopefully remember to put something together for a post. (See how I skillfully weaved references to both time and memory into the last sentence. Aren’t I a smartass? 🙂 )
For now I’ll share one of my fave Peter Gabriel songs, as it keeps playing in my jukebox mind to remind me of my own forgetfulness:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9k_ZRyws8Uc
And the young Peter Gabriel is so hot!
@Prax
I can’t reconcile “incompetent” with the effortlessly intelligent, sharp and witty person you seem to be.. But INTJs and INFJs have unreasonably high expectations of themselves.. But, I feel like you pass off as a good performer even when you’re being, what you consider, irresponsible and incompetent?
@Rita
“So my thought is this: because memory is thought to be best seated by emotion and your Te is more highly considered along with “universal?” time of Ni, which is not a very linear or a concrete thing. It makes sense that clear concrete sequential ordered memory is not so much there. With INFJs a similar thing will occur if using Fe (in the tradional way or in creative expression as Blake suggests). It is in the moment, released, and gone. The memories are coalesced and stored away somewhere and somehow I suppose but they are vague and impressionistic but not detailed in first this,then that, then…. Fe in the tradional sense is about group harmony and it is broadly but not deeply emotional and reduces or dismisses (overrides) one’s own Fi response, so the memory does not get sealed in or embedded in the same way. Maybe?”
Wow! This is giving me.. thoughts 🙂
I think you’ve got it right.. why so much of life is a ‘blob’ as Prax put it..
And I’ve had that experience too.. of reading something I’ve written and being amazed.. I don’t even remember writing any of it.. It just happens.. In the corners of pages.. The memories never stick.. But when you come across them months or years later, it’s like meeting a new person.. Where did they come from? Hmm.. daily conversations involving heavy Fe use are never stored in my memory.. It’s only scattered Fi rushes.. Fleeting.. Solidified.. Internalized..
@Stewart
You do sound ENTP sometimes 😛
Rita, when we recently moved house I came across some of my old notebooks from my teenage years as well as more recent times. And I had a similar experience of “Wow, did I really write that?”. Alternatively, when I meet an old friend after a long separation, they sometimes tell me of something I said or wrote for them that had profound meaning for them, but that I can barely remember doing.
Last time I visited England, a dear friend pulled out the Astrological birthchart I had drawn up for her with my hand-written notes scrawled all over it. She told me it had changed her life, as the chart had highlighted talents that she knew she possessed but had not previously had the confidence to express. I couldn’t believe that something small like that (it couldn’t have taken me very long to prepare) had such a profound meaning for a another person. I was blown away by this, as I have done similar things many times for other friends without realising the significance to them.
My memory of my past is like an impressionist painting
You infjs who found your entps and feel a lightness… Am really happy for yous. I almost feel lighter reading your descriptions.
Blake,
“I think of the “pressured speech” that I’ve seen listed as one of the manifestations of a manic-depressive in a manic episode. They cannot stop talking and their speech is coming out very fast and propulsively as if they are being driven by a motor that they can’t turn off.
ENTPs don’t have this as much. It is really a manifestation of Fe in the id combined with Ne in the dominant. I have seen ESFPs that have a similar manic thing, so maybe Se in the dominant and Fe in the id (ESFP) can cause a similar thing in those predisposed. EP in the dominant.”
This seems right to me. Even the ENFPs (who I’ve met and who identify as ENFP along with a few who I identify this way), but do not meet the criteria for bi-polar have something of this in them. They can be talkative and you cannot get a word in and they interrupt or interject non-stop with an emotional drive sometimes and then they are just withdrawn sad sacks the next time you see them. Now, ENTPs will talk and talk and interrupt and interject with enthusiasm about an idea and be quiet other times, but it is a different energy. One is clean and cool burning fuel and the other is wetter, if you get my meaning? In the first, it is enthusiasm around an idea (so it is emotional too, I suppose), but the other is ….driven to emote an idea. It may be a matter of which comes first and how it is presented. In the case of the ENFP they are aware that they are breaching a conventional conversational exchange but are compelled anyway. In the case of the ENTP, they are aware of the idea first that they feel compelled to share, but are unaware or less aware or aware only secondarily that they are breaching reciprocal conversation convention.
I hope that makes sense? It is what I see in my close association with one ENTP and a collection of ENFPs. Not that I am an expert on all the arrays of these types, but this is my experience with them and as I perceive the difference.
For my part, I love ENFPs for friendship and for ferreting out emotion and meaning together. However, for a couple pairing, I’d far prefer the cleaner less messy (emotionally) ENTP.
@Rita
Have nothing helpful to say but that does all sound like a lot to handle. Hugs.
Thank you Lunar.
Btw, you were very helpful when you mentioned the leaky emotional undercurrent that you detect in INFJs and the simple words “take care of that.” I like to plan ahead and I can see that as an issue when dealing with some others when the ordeal begins tomorrow. I envisioned where I would leak and why and I’m better prepared just from your words. This is exactly the gift that I see in INFPs. They hold up a mirror and show you what you don’t see in very gentle and intuitive ways. It is a very useful gift as I see it anyway.
Good luck.
When I wrote “take care of that” I felt a bit bad, because it’s all about the auxiliary it appears. Blake makes it truly sound like therein lies the magic.
I have a haughty intj id that leaks out when I teach…I sometimes manage to remember Blake’s auxiliary advice like it’s gonna save my life and turn on Ne. Leap of faith.
Hugs.
Lunar,
Well, your use had magic effect on me, so do you think there may be something in that magic of Ne? That Blake dude must be a pretty sharp guy, I’d guess, because some pretty stellar folks gather here and are intrigued by his word paintings which inspire collective thought weavings. Your prints and strokes are definitely in these pages too. Go on with your inspired “daydream believer” musings. Well, so long as they inspire you, that is. Only you can be the judge, but that was truly the most helpful piece of advice that was not even meant for me, but will be the thing that helps throughout what will likely be a trying, taxing, and emotionally laden time. This one piece, if I use it effectively, will be helpful to those beyond me. I don’t want to bring leaky toxins to the table, so being aware that I might, makes me take steps so I won’t. See?
I’m glad it can help Rita (and also, glad Blake is teaching this stuff).
His persona is ENTJ, his real self is INFJ. What’s he’s trying to be is an ESTJ (Se-Ni). Makes sense.