Donald Trump. What can I possibly say about him?
Well, I’ve been more or less thinking about him for a week.
Please note that I did not vote in this election, and moreover, I paid no attention to any of the campaign speeches, news coverage, or anything of the like. I have reasons for this that are too much to go into here. However, I couldn’t help but find out (unwillingly) that Hillary had no way but to win.
So, it was a week ago today that I went online to find out who won the election. I mean, why did I even bother? I knew we were just going into 4 years of Hillary…yawn, whatever.
“Shocking. An upset. A stunning repudiation of…”
And that was my reaction but in a milder and positive form. I was mostly shocked that Hillary didn’t win when I was led to believe she had it all locked up.
My first thought was “That’s good”. And a kind of stunned disbelief that it had happened. A little hope began to break through into my numbed and jaded political consciousness.
I’d have to get into my personal history to explain why that is. I’d have to get into my whole experience with liberalism and that seems arduous.
Suffice to say, I kind of inherited a natural liberal stance and conscience towards political and social matters.
I thought I liked liberals because they were free and open and against Bush (George W) who was an obvious oaf and oppressor etc.
Then I moved to Portland and realized I hated liberals, at least, of the new generation. The hipsters.
I mean, I like JFK just fine, but, who the fuck is John Kerry?
And who are these pretentious, whiny, entitled, false desperation, hypocritical and slick liberals of the new generation?
What I learned is that they are open-minded as long as you agree with them.
They’re tolerant of diversity as long as that means you’re a person of any race that believes in white values.
The hypocrisy is staggering.
Liberals of today like their comfort, their style, their dress, their way of speaking and thinking, and their technology (iPhones/Apple products).
I suppose my biggest gripe with them comes from their staggering hypocrisy. I mean, if they just came out and said “Yeah, we think we’re better than you”, OMG, that would be so refreshing.
But, they don’t. Because that would consciously cause them to go against their ideology of equality, tolerance, diversity, blah blah blah.
And here is what they have done, these new liberals. They have managed to put themselves into this middle homogenized hipster rebel conformist thingie. This sort of espousal of individualism, but, they’re all individual in the exact same cookie cutter bed head skinny white boy Norwegian way.
I started seeing these new liberals in the early 2000’s. The internet was just taking off. Then social media. Then these fucks were everywhere.
I would have to talk about the internet and what this very new thing has done to culture in a very short amount of time.
And that’s exhausting.
One thing is that is has lowered the bar of discourse so that everyone can say their thing. Because, man, we’re righteous and we gotta speak out about … well, we just gotta speak out about … hey, let’s take pictures of our lattes…
It’s too much to say what I’ve seen.
These new liberals have pretty much taken over culture. This was all happening during the Bush administration and Bush Bush Bush was the rebellion. And I agree, Bush was terrible, a joke, a buffoon. And his administration was a bunch of crooks.
Anyway, then Obama and the age of the internet phenomenon in politics.
Obama is the new liberal’s candidate.
I already touched on Obama in my Obama article. I don’t really have much more to say about him.
In essence, he is the political symbol/representative of these new liberals. A conformist who talks about change, pays lip service to x, y and z nebulous and vague values, but, who, at the end of the day has no intention of doing anything besides presenting a benign image that is a mixture of coolness and … well, just coolness really. Too cool. Cold, actually.
Obama is a genius of middling tepidness. Of blandness. Of non-standingness.
And these hipsters/new liberals even more. What do they champion? What do they stand for?
Selfie sticks, iPhones, Steve Jobs as their fallen god.
O, and fighting social injustice! How could I forget?
Fighting The Man, The Oppressor.
How exactly they are doing that by getting on Facebook and wasting their own and everybody else’s time is beyond me.
If anything, Facebook is The Oppressor. And they are its minions.
More hypocrisy. It’s neverending with this bunch.
Anyway, enough about them. Their testimony is so widespread that one has to take a step back from all of it to be able to clearly see it. Or see anything else for that matter.
It is not social injustice that is the big cultural problem, but, rather, spiritual deadness.
But, what is the spiritual?
Well, it’s another term that has been appropriated by those new age leftists and distorted to have happy cuddly bear meanings that it originally did not possess.
The spiritual is non-denominational and so associated with no particular religion or no religion at all.
The spiritual is quite simply life energy. It is fire. It is intuition. It is the lightning flash of intuition.
The spiritual is amoral, it is above the sphere of morality. To expect the spiritual to conform to whatever current day morality prevails is to choke and to kill the spiritual.
And life cannot exist without the spark of the spiritual. Without this spark we are merely zombies.
And in a zombified age, where spirit is dwindling at its minimum, where we are expected to worship at the altar of the computer screen and all the shiny chimera it can show us at the click of a button, what can we expect a resurgence of the spiritual to look like?
Well, we can expect it to look like death.
We can expect it to look like Donald Trump.
More next time 🙂
Featured Photo Credit: Scotto Bear from North Beach, MD, USA (Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 Generic license”)
Someone interviewed Trump in his penthouse and he said he doesn’t need the penthouse, he just wanted to know it could be done, could be built, which to me sounded rather honest. The journalist then commented about the blind irony of this, but I felt it was very contemptuous to interview someone like that then analyze like this on air. Also he opens up about his brother’s death and he gets analyzed for his emotional affect and basically is judged for not reflecting on deeper reasons for his brother’s alcoholism.
When you said self-righteous for some reason this example came to mind.
Anyhow, yeah. We have been aided greatly in deriding him. We are told how to see him.
I’ve always wanted to move to Portland haha.
OMG what a great article! You’ve summed up a lot of what I’ve been thinking recently but haven’t had the guts to say.
The new “liberalism” just seems to me to be another form of righteousness, much like the old patriarchal religions. A way of setting societal standards of behavior, appearance, values and even language; not for the enlightenment of our species, but for the purposes of conformity and control and feeling superior. And if you are accepted as a member of this new tribe, then you shall be free to Judge from on high the sinners and transgressors and impure.
I recently watched an online documentary that covered the history of recent times. It explained how the old political democracies have gradually been usurped and replaced by a form of mass hallucination in which nothing is what it seems to be and most people now live in a carefully constructed world that is far removed from reality.
Given recent events, I’m inclined to agree with this view. In typological terms, this strikes me as being the product of an extreme Extraverted Thinking worldview. In a dysfunctional Te world, logical complexity is reduced to simplistic black and white sound-bites, morality means expediency, and reality is nothing more than an airbrushed, photo-shopped product which can be rewritten whenever the wind changes.
And of course an astute ENTJ like Trump was perfectly positioned by both temperament and experience to usurp the old pseudo-liberal version of reality and replace it with TrumpWorld™.
Agree with what you’re saying but ENTJ? This man has Fe flowing out of his…”wherever.”
@Alejandro
Can you say more about the Fe?
“I will build a great wall — and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me –and I’ll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words.”
Don’t see much Fe in that…..
It’s important, when assessing which functions are being used, to understand the context in which they are said. Hitler, from what I can tell, was an antisocial ENFJ. There exists the possibility that he was INFJ but I am confident he was one of those two. I am quite sure he might have said things as brash sounding as this in his speeches if not more “Te” sounding as you say. The fact is, though, that Fe can be whatever it wants to be whenever it NEEDS to be a certain way. Donald Trump’s interest in “Making America Great Again” has never been to prove his own business skills at the highest level and show HE is great (Te+Fi)…his intentions have long been devotion to his great motherland…to an idealized version of America. The flag, the red hat, the hashtag, the wall. He rules not through himself but through channeling the energy of the masses into a vision that is not his, but theirs. At every step of the campaign trail, Trump’s responses…the sadness in his delivery as he speaks about the “failure of our nation” have always been a sort of mirror to that of the ailing public whose vote he attempted to and did capture. Trump changed his answers to key questions ever so slightly at different events based upon how his iNtuition perceived the emotions of the crowd so they could best be channelled into his tide, his movement, not to honor himself, but the grand American Republic (Fe). There was little Te consistency here. There was little Te rationality. Te cares about being efficient and effective. Nearly every scholar agrees, isolationists including, that the cost of building a wall are far going to exceed its benefit. But alas, the wall is a symbol (Ni+Se) for the people to rally around. He largely went off script. Because he was FEELING out his emotional environment, (Fe+Se), rationalizing it (Ti), and delivering a vision (Ni) for what WE, America could become. Trump never once made a highlight of his speech: “I will make America Great Again,” it was always “WE will MAGA.” Contrast this with Hillary who was always on her message, consistent in her delivery (Te+Si), and always stated “I will fight… (Fi+Te).”
Additionally to speak to your last note about not seeing much Fe in what he is saying about Mexico. I would actually argue there is little Fi there. Fi is more universal in its moral code. Fe can operate within whatever ethics of a society exist and trust me the protectionist sentiment he channeled was quite large enough for that to be acceptable and used to funnel positive American sentiment towards the building of a wall. Again, his devotion here was to the great idealized vision of the collective of America just as xNFJ Hitler’s vision was devoted to making the lives of the people of the Reich lively and meaningful…and he couldn’t care less about the rest.
@Alejandro
Trump started testing viable political messages before entering the race. He almost then did not enter past election (s?). I used to think he had entered the race totally randomly, like a reality show.
In front of the crowd, he definitely shows Se.
He looks sometimes like he doesn’t get what is acceptable or expected. Here is a video of him where to me he shows clear confusion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diMp241gAcw
Even supposing he is being provocative, he still seems a tad clueless.
The confusion to me is most evident when he says “That’s good. That’s very good.” And then he gives a bump. Honestly, he almost looks not very intuitive there. But mostly he looks values-confused. Area of vulnerability like he could be lead astray via this weakness of his.
I came across this. Just thought I’d share. Not related to anything in your or others’ comments.
Throughout his life you can see him turn himself into a “personality”.
I see the Ni-Se or Se-Ni in his story of when he saw a bridge being opened in New York he saw that everyone but the actual engineer who designed it was getting recognition. Trump says that he saw right there a stark fact of life that some people end up suckers and this is not the road he wanted to take.
The brand Trump, his brand in the eyes of the world, is what he then mastered.
Throughout his career, he has sought attention in various ways, planted stories in the paper, etc, tried a bit of this a bit of reality tv. then the presidential race. I really would like to know, if he is entj, if this is manifestation of enfp id. Because the constant seeking of attention/conquering is sort of also an exxp trait.
As someone who followed this campaign season EXTREMELY closely, I really like Alejandro’s analysis. Though I’m no expert on MBTI. Also please note I don’t mean anything I’m about to say as an endorsement or condemnation. 🙂
“It’s important, when assessing which functions are being used, to understand the context in which they are said.” Totally agree. And it is extraordinarily
“The fact is, though, that Fe can be whatever it wants to be whenever it NEEDS to be a certain way.” “He rules not through himself but through channeling the energy of the masses into a vision that is not his, but theirs.” I think this is why we saw him focus so much on having a strong answer or position on just about every issue. He perceived people were tired of weakness and ineffective policy (especially foreign policy), and defaulted himself to a stronger/more secure position than his opponents. Ted Cruz wanted to build a wall, too, but I bet 95% of the country doesn’t know that.
“Trump changed his answers to key questions ever so slightly at different events based upon how his iNtuition perceived the emotions of the crowd so they could best be channelled into his tide, his movement, not to honor himself, but the grand American Republic (Fe).”
Exactly. I can think of several statements Trump made that offended or enraged some people, but they actually led to his poll numbers rising or a primary state win. Or take his response after the horrible shooting at the nightclub in Orlando. That may be part of why he won Florida.
“…the cost of building a wall are far going to exceed its benefit. But alas, the wall is a symbol (Ni+Se) for the people to rally around.” (Side-note: he’s said since like February it won’t be a long, contiguous wall. Not physically possible in some places.) But again, what he did was position himself on the stronger side of the issue, which I think lends to the idea that Fe guided a lot of his campaign themes.
“Trump never once made a highlight of his speech: “I will make America Great Again,” it was always “WE will MAGA.” Contrast this with Hillary who was always on her message, consistent in her delivery (Te+Si), and always stated “I will fight… (Fi+Te).”
I think you can boil down the difference to two of the slogans used by each campaign this year: “I’m with her” vs. “I’m with you.”
Trump isn’t an intuitive. He’s primal, not cerebral. ESTP if I ever saw one
@Stewart – did you watch “Hypernormalisation”? That shit was like a psychedelic. (I assume. I have never taken that type of drug – my brain goes to that place so easily without substances I’m afraid to.)
Trump really activates my fear for some reason. Really, really activates my apocalypse anxiety. I don’t know what it is, exactly. I’ve been trying to observe it neutrally in myself, but I’m an insane person, so it’s tough. Mostly the fear he triggers in me is less about social policy and more about climate change, which I personally do not believe to be a hoax created by the Chinese. Also about him getting into weird nuclear warfare because someone on Twitter insulted his face or whatever.
@Blake – I actually have come to understand a lot of your type of gripes about liberal culture even if I don’t share all of them (I am very far left apparently… way down bottom left in those foursquare left/right anarchist/authoritarian grids) and recently have come to have a lot of empathy for people who feel oppressed by liberal groupthink. An example I’ve recently noticed is the trans rights movement. I believe strongly that every person has an individual right to decide who they are and to live as freely as possible with the minimum of interference. On the one hand, then, I feel strongly that if a person decides or knows that they are of a certain gender, or no gender, whatever, right on! BE WHO YOU ARE! On the other hand, the way this movement, and many identity/social justice movements, has now taken off and spawned rapidly through left-of-center thinking, seems fundamentally highly authoritarian and conformist to me. It is not enough for a person to have the freedom to say “I decide who I am” and to have the right to live freely and without harassment – now everyone around them has to perform this act of mass agreement, and if you aren’t able to move as rapidly as the bleeding edge of leftist social justice culture is moving, you are obviously a terrible person and you deserve to be shamed for your wrongness.
I also have strong feelings about free speech, even when I think someone’s speech is stupid, wrong, and offensive. I think particularly that leftists (whose right to free speech was won for them fairly recently, in the US you’re talking about the 60s and 70s!) now frequently try to dampen or suppress the speech of people they disagree with, which IMO is both unethical and practically a terrible idea. Once you put that idea – that you are allowed to silence those you find to be WRONG – back on the table, now it can be used against your side again. Congratulations, you idiots!
Anyway, I don’t feel very judgmental about why most people chose to vote for Trump, but I still think Trump is an incompetent buffoon who is going to be an embarrassing president. (And maybe that’s good, I’m not about presidential systems anymore.) I get very TRIGGERED (hehe) by people who are incompetent and unprofessional. If we think of this in terms of GAME OF THRONES, I feel that Trump is Robert Baratheon – sometimes charismatic, but also fat, sloppy, blundering, driven by his dick in boring ways, and his petty bullshit impulses, easily butthurt, unable to govern or organize, fundamentally totally incompetent because hard work is boring and hard, both disloyal and prone to trusting the wrong people because they buttered him up the right way. On the other hand, I’ve sometimes worried that because of my strong dislike of buffoons I am at risk of following fascist-adjacent people, so perhaps it’s good that he’s like this and not like Stannis!
” I think particularly that leftists (whose right to free speech was won for them fairly recently, in the US you’re talking about the 60s and 70s!) now frequently try to dampen or suppress the speech of people they disagree with, which IMO is both unethical and practically a terrible idea.”
Yes, I have noticed an increase in this. It has been quite nasty this time.
” Really, really activates my apocalypse anxiety. ”
Same here. I have been having very detailed and bizarre dreams about Trump. I don’t usually dream about political figures.
I think part of it is like how natural instinct to feel like he doesn’t deserve the presidency. (Not that the president is the ultimate outcome of how things go… sometimes the president is almost a puppet). Same as how toddlers instinctively root for the person who appears to be playing fairly or something. Part of me thinks he doesn’t really deserve it because he tapped into fear, which I am not sure should be rewarded even if it works. So lots of reactions. Including one of, well maybe he WILL shake things up. Maybe this was coming. Etc. But there is still this gut feeling that he doesn’t deserve to be the president. He seems capable of slashing science funding and other stuff that worries me. Etc. Seems capable of rewarding those who say nice things about him punishing those that don’t. Etc.
@Lunar – Yes! I have that feeling too, that he doesn’t deserve to be president. I am starting to think that part of why he activates my apocalypse fear is that, as I’ve observed his transition period, I no longer believe that he wants to be president in even a vague way. I don’t think he wants the job. I think the job sounds oppressive and dull to him. I don’t think he thought he’d win and I think he is unprepared and basically a dumpster fire right now.
A friend of mine has a theory that he has ZERO real friends. This makes a ton of sense to me. Where George W Bush might have suffered from too much loyalty to the old boys club, and thus was susceptible to a lot of pressures and being played like a puppet, that is at least a paradigm my brain can plot out. I think Trump is a sociable loner. He doesn’t have loyalties. He doesn’t have ties. He doesn’t have deep relationships. I read an article about how while he’s on his private rich dude plane, he doesn’t want to be alone. He wants an aide sitting nearby even while he’s dozing, murmuring to him in a quiet voice. Right now it seems that his son-in-law is pulling some of his strings, avenging himself on Chris Christie and Christie’s allies to punish him for prosecuting his (Kushner’s) father.
People who are easily manipulated but also completely without loyalty are alarming to me. I actually find it strangely comforting when people are without loyalty but strong in their own preferences and not easily manipulated. And I understand people who are easy to manipulate but loyal. The mix of things I perceive Trump to have going on is alarming to me. I can’t go to the same place I see a lot of people going, that Trump will shake things up but it will fundamentally be okay. (But I have what the filmmaker Jane Campion calls “a highly-developed sense of the possible”… I always think something terrible is just around the corner.)
I’ve had a really weird impression of life as a video game after this election.
Imagine a virtual reality game where just because it is possible, one character just advances, makes gains, and takes the lead. Nothing can really prevent the possibility, just because it is one of the possibilities among all the possibilities that follows from the original programming, and no other reason. And among the possibilities is someone who advances for reasons having nothing to do with wanting the job in any true sense, etc. There is that weird path to the presidency.
Okay thoughts are leaping all over. The mbti has made life seem a bit like a video game too. 16 types are discernible for sure. I find it really clear in writing, for example, how different infps and infjs sound. Infjs collectively have something recognizable in the writing. Template. One of the parameters of the game. All this astrology/collective unconscious can almost be explained by the entire existence being a video game. The collective unconscious would the be consciousness of the designer of the game. Some are born as bold as entjs, others are born as jsdhfdf as infps. You cannot leap from infp to entj. Can’t be done. As if that just isn’t in the basic programming. All there is is what is possible among possibilities and what is not.
So I guess some intjs could somehow be the characters that really examine what is the most fatalistic and possible according to the video game design and limitations. What can a character inside do to change what is inside within the confines of being inside?
Infp is like somehow not experiencing it that way. They appear to have as part of their design to feel more “sewn” into the fabric of reality, almost as if it’s a story on a page rather than a video game. How can you affect reality, if you are sewn in. You are mostly trapped into the sewing.
Woah all over the place.
@Lunar – say more about all of this? The video game image, and the way INFP and INFJ people seem so different in writing?
I’ve had a lot of thoughts and images of reality being both highly subjective (so many realizations of the “Holy shit, is this literally how gun people feel when they worry that the government is coming for their gunz? I feel so bad for laughing.” variety) and also somehow externally controlled since Trump won. I constantly keep thinking that this feels like fate. Like it was written in the book and now the prophecy must be fulfilled, like it’s a story that is playing out – like we could struggle against it if we want, but we’d be like a character in a Greek myth who ends up marrying his mom no matter what.
This gives me that heady psychedelic feeling again. It makes a disorienting kind of sense that if all the world’s a stage and we’re all just playing out a play we didn’t write (or maybe we wrote it before we came into these physical bodies or whatever), that there would be different stock character types the game would use to populate itself.
@SeeTheElephant
Okay. I will attempt to describe the “impression” of difference in the writings of infps and infjs on stellarmaze, say. But, at risk of making no sense. Because Ni id. Zooming in, find out there is low resolution.
Okay. Infjs first of all have very playful mental exploration. I want to say they are serious people in general and come across very intense in physical presence, but their posts reveal playful examination of concepts, meaning etc. Also, the writing process works very well for infjs. Meaning that even when just musing, often, they magically give clarity to the reader, in some hard to explain way. At least that is how I experience it.
It’s not the same as intj writing. Intj writing gives a real buzz. It is more metallic tasting (stuff comes out presented more decisively as if along a very secret metal assembly frame, or electrical wires direct from computation terminal central). Infj writing reveals more of the self in a way, but there is a mystery in it nonetheless. Muse is the word that comes to mind.
Infp writing on stellarmaze comes across as … hmm … I risk superimposing my own experience on the other infps. I want to say that because the writing is less effective at revealing what the infp “saw” which they may not even have seen, they saw a “presque vu”, the writing looks lazier in the translation aspect. Infps have a much harder time expressing things in a way that can be understood and it’s because at the moment of writing, there is low resolution in the image. So while attempting to write things in the language of logic, the actual image may be knocking on the right, then knocking on the left, the writing itself can march forward without the image, and sigh, without all the logic steps. Yes, I think infps often have a vague inkling of A to B, and just put A to B down. But it might not be A to B, and the image is weak, so A to B looks like A and B side by side possibly even unrelated. Morphing incomprehensibly. Or, in a desperate attempt to contain the process, the infp may attempt to put “point x” down and then just go almost mathematically from there (it’s like memo to self: use if this then that language). This is like saying if x then y, many different ways, but all you’ve said is if x then y, and the image is gone. I use the word reduction for this. Infp writing has a certain kind of fluidity to it, but the fluidity isn’t the same as smooth flow of intuition to pen that you see with infj. It’s more like the pen is ball point and very smooth, but the flow of thought sticks and backs up or blurs or bleeps or encounters a wormhole. Yes, wormholes. The mind is traveling and ends up elsewhere while the pen somehow is still cruising. Hard to explain.
So, infp writing isn’t the same as infj writing at all. I want to say the clearer it is the more fantastical it may end up….? In the same way that math can be thought of as fantastical. Well the universe is fantastical.
Okay so infp writing not the same as infj writing not the same as intj writing etc.
16 types that aren’t the same. A nice power of 2. You’d think this were a game that the original programming had a simple set of rules from which to base off.
Your eyes see this “reality” but look at how eyes look. Like freaky marbles on CABLES that plug into the brain. I want to say that Ni is the actual reality. So is Ne. The sensors are the ones that are in this video game who are very accepting of this video game reality. Intuitives are looking into the other side of the fabric, they are very attuned to the reality that makes video games possible. Fi-dominants are the ones most attuned to how can people feel real even inside a video game. Real as in human, souls, in spite of just being characters for the stories that shape themselves according to the rules of the program. Maybe this is why the stories they write are pure fantasy. Because to feel real, like some kind of fleshed out unique individual is pure fantasy. In fact there are just lots of 16 types. 2^4. The dichotomy is being plugged into the reality of the game or the actual reality on the other side.
“Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
TYRANNY! SILENCING! CENSORSHIP!
(Is this because I said “dick”?)
I’m trying to understand your post, Blake. Is this just a “my thoughts on where America is going” speech? Are you grouping liberals and hipsters under the same umbrella? This is what I gather from your article.
I think you need to “zoom out” a little, especially since you “paid no attention to any of the campaign speeches, news coverage, or anything of the like”. It seems like you have tunnel vision with the images of every day-life playing on repeat in your mind.
Every generation makes a difference. I am sure that Baby Boomers said of the 90’s punk kids, “What are they doing with that punk music? Why can’t they wear a decent pair of jeans? Why are they so depressed? Why not do something about it instead of just banging their heads to Nirvana?”
Gen X actually laid much of the groundwork for Millennials. At the same time kids were banging their heads to Nirvana, other kids were saying “Like, oh my God! As if!” I know you are talking about hipster/liberals. So why did I veer off of that path? Because you’re not looking at the whole picture. Everything is relative. (Although, the more I read this article, the more it sounds like you’re saying “Fuck the young people/hipsters/young liberals”, so it’s all the same anyway.)
What has the internet done to this culture? It’s given you a platform to voice your opinion to anyone who will listen. It’s given us information at our fingertips. At the same time, we do not have to work for our information which means we do not retain it once we get it. Technology induced dementia.
I agree with you, technology has sucked the spirit right out of our frail little bodies. Technology is like a special power. It can be used for good or evil, or to numb oneself with the pretty lights.
“What can we expect a resurgence of the spiritual to look like?” All throughout time, there have been those who are connected to the universe and those that are detached. We are human and this is each our own struggle. And a struggle as a whole. The best thing to do is to connect. Or, continuously try.
Steve Jobs was a phoney and everyone who worships him is a phoney.
I agree with you Blake.. I don’t think there is anything like Liberalism these days.. Everyone belongs to one faction, and that’s petty Egoism.. People love taking sides and spinning arguments, but the aim isn’t to actually achieve something meaningful, it’s all in service of short-term, short-sighted, self-interest.. whatever rocks their socks at the moment.. it could be power, or money, or attention, or even just the satisfaction of looking good and feeling superior or winning an argument.. People talk SO MUCH on all these platforms technology has enabled.. but they say so little..
Egoism isn’t bad or useless.. It can make an impact when fuelled by a self of substance, or largeness of thought.. Human history has more pages dedicated to stories of hate and violence arising from self-preservation, self-promotion and sadism than stories of benevolence and growth feeding off symbiotic respect, but atleast there was passion in the largeness of thought in the past.. it wasn’t just wishy washy mirroring and projection.. there was a sheer audacity of spirit in wanting to overcome or overthrow, and a lot of creative and destructive beauty emerged in the process.. a lot of truths were revealed.. it’s okay to be positive or negative (what is positive and negative, but perspective? And what is perspective in the larger scheme of things?) as long as you leave behind a legacy of Beauty and Truth.. What did you truly stand for? There’s always something to learn from that.. But I don’t think anyone during these times has the cojones or the will or even a substantial self to stand for anything other than petty ideas.. I’m not an American, but the same themes are prevalent all over the world.. An age of fusion through confusion.. Right and Left are a joke.. There’s only a middle.. the locus of petty self-image.. just an image without a soul.. and everyone is smoke without fire.. turning to ash uselessly..
r u saying he’s the jolt of dire reality to awaken lazy infjs (and intjs) to finally do something for the world lol
that’s exactly what I’ve been thinking…
infjs and intjs do their best work covertly, and lazy/immature ones usually seek a public display in which to “change” the world (See: JFK, Hitler, et al).
Obama jolted them years ago, so their response was to actually vote…which is why the outcome was such a “shock” to the babies in entertainment/media who thought they had the collective culture locked into what they deem acceptable.
jeffrey i am not sure what you are saying but it sounds a bit stupipd
Well and what are INFPs supposed to do? Smile at everyone? I kind of fear that it is all I have to offer, while world is in dire need of something entirely else, more practical to be particular.
i have said this elsewhere, but i think for many infp, their kind of role in the world is more as a litmus test to how well the world is functioning
if an infp type is hardpressed to find happiness and peace no matter how they try to settle or escape, something dire and poisonous is afoot.
so it’s not about smiling through everything. if you’re sad, be sad, if you’re angry, be angry. be true to yourself and tell us what the world is for you; and through that, what it also can be (Ne).
Ni types typically can follow down a wormhole and say what was the root and what the blossom may be, but Ne types plant seeds far and wide to see what can happen (and sympathetic or inspired Ni types may run with it and try to make it more possible–though i thnk in order to make it truly concrete, you need Se types to act and Si types to maintain).
that kind of thing. a symbiotic/synchronized dance requiring everyone in a way
and maybe you will feel your own role is a little useless, but oh well! being alive is not all about being “useful” anyway, and in any case, i like infp so it ok haha
Prax,
Your comments are so insightful! Your idea of INFPs being society’s litmus test is great! Have to put that in my Si memory bank.
I think your advice about life as “being” rather than just being “useful” is also profound.
Speaking as an INFP, and just for myself, I think .:, could be expressing an urge to act prompted by her dominant Fi. Fi in me makes me feel guilty if I’m not acting when I see a problem or sense one.
Maybe it’s as simple as seeing a nail in the road. I think, “Oh gosh, some poor soul’s going to get a flat tire if I don’t pick it up. Then how will I ever live with myself? They could get a flat tire, and then veer off the road into a mother walking her baby carriage! How awful!”
So my advice to .:, is to help in any way you can, in any situation, no matter how seemingly insignificant. Use your Fi spidey sense to feel the need in a situation. Use your Ne to think of some options. But use discernment and don’t be a pest. And it might be as simple as picking that nail off the road.
My apologies in not validating your endless dilettantish prattle that infects the comments section of every blog post.
But thanks for offering the “nuh uh…you’re stupid” response. Very insightful, and perhaps the very stuff that Blake is talking about, regarding leftist ignorance.
you spelt “stupipd” wrong, hjreffry
I love this thought on spiritual death. The idea of spiritual death is the result of a fact checking obsession from liberals and reality distortion from the prominent republican leaders. A war between smug and dumb. We search for confirmation of our own beliefs and become confused or cynical if it opposes are mental framework….(both sides) and everyone picks a side based on their favorite celebrity’s views or however their parents raised them. No one makes a decision by following their heart…”cause I’m not a conservative, I live in the real world.” And no ones going to compassionately and selflessly see the kind intention from their opponents perspective…”cause I’m not a pussy liberal with no traditional convictions.” There’s never an in between gray area anymore. If your not on one side your on the other. FYI, If you claim to be in the middle, you’ll be grouped with the left….No reason, but that’s what’s been decided by the our culture.
Hi Sammy,
I tend to think politics has gotten extremely more gray, actually. The more our culture in America changes as a whole, so do the demands for a leader. Politicians say whatever they need to get the vote (power), then behind closed doors, it’s much compromise. The problem with extremes (left and right) is close-mindedness. Which is what (I think) brings us to the meat of this article. Which is “We need a change”. This is in all regards, not just political. And I think Blake was (maybe) trying to get the point across that young people are stuck in a world they’ve created for everyone that has the password, only to find themselves spiritually detached. This part isn’t specifically directed towards you Sammy, but I’m a little disappointed in the direction of the comments in this post. There are some heavy and deep things underlying in this post, and it seems we chose to focus on Trump and politics. Does anyone get from the first section of this post that Blake does not like politics? It’s very evident. My guess is he started this article this way because it’s an attention-grabber. And a story always ends with a moral, or the most important part of the message. And the message here, is we are detached.
Lots of thoughts. Looking forward to the next article.
You have very unique viewpoints. And very similar to that of the ENTP I am with. Interesting that you arrive at similar out of the box conclusions completely independently, although he is lacking the depth and interest in soul.
Hi Emily. I pretty much pulled those thoughts out of my ass cause I was exploring the idea of spiritual deadness within my own mental framework. But even still, I was speaking about the masses within cultural politics… not the puppet politicians. This election had a very black and white divide. In retrospect, I would say defining the black gray or white also leads to this spiritual emptiness. And the fact that I’m trying to delagitimize the black gray and white is also a spiritual death. Defining the abstract for no reason= death of spirit.
As you can see spiritual deadness really resonated with me. I fully understand what Blake’s intention was with this idea, but I’d just like to let this obsession flow for a bit. But your right, the focus should be on making change. But how?
Wanted to discuss “close mindedness”….isn’t this in alignment with Mbti rules. Sensors dominate the world. They dominate the present moment, and the present revolves around what’s on the surface… taking things at face value. To label A majority as closed minded would be a douchey Infj/intj/intp/entp/entj thing to say. Then how do we change/engage/progress? For starters I would say everyone should stop with the smug “I’m better/smarter/cooler than you statements.” Don’t know where to go from there though….
Hi Sammy,
Here’s my muddled thoughts to your interesting comments.
Maybe Blake’s article is getting at the Apollonian and Dionysian concept of things. We are too deadened with the overly rational Apollonian. Too in the head. We need the vitality of the heart, the Dionysian. Blake has mentioned these two mythological gods before.
Other angles to consider. Judging functions create that separation of the subject and the object. An element of error in judgement can occur. Maybe our society has too much Te/Ti/Fe/Fi functioning going on. An us against them feel. Too much disunity.
Perceiving functions, on the other hand, don’t separate out the subject from the object. There is a oneness. More Dionysus. And the ultimate perceiving function is probably Ni. This function could be needed to restore balance and wholeness.
Concerning your mention of the Se surface of things. I seem to recall reading in Lenore Thomson’s book entitled, “Personality Type-An Owner’s Manual”, a similar thought. (I love this book.) I think she said due to TV and other visual media, as a society we are placing an increasing emphasis on the SE perceiving function in life. Then, unfortunately, the judging functions enter the picture and divide us up by appearances and then identity politics comes into play. I think she also said something to the effect that INFJs and their Se inferior function looping with their Ni perspective function creates an obsession with politically correct language. Which further adds to the toxic brew we find ourselves in. Ideally we would concentrate on what unites us inwardly, rather than what separates us outwardly as seen on the SE surface.
Hi Sammy,
Not sure who Emily is… 😉
“For starters I would say everyone should stop with the smug “I’m better/smarter/cooler than you statements.” Don’t know where to go from there though….”
Could you elaborate on this? Are you saying in general, in the world, to progress as a human whole, we need to stop proclaiming we are better than others? What do you mean by this and do you believe this is the first step? Or was this just an initial thought?
I appreciate your comment on the present being on the surface. It makes me think. Since the present is on the surface and do to perceiving external sensors, what are your thoughts on the past and the future?
Oops sorry Erika (not Emily).
I think Se and Ne revolve around the present moment. Si is the past, And Ni means nothing till it’s something….but it is the only light into an uncoded future. I’m sure someone can build onto that with more depth.
Let me attempt to untangle my thoughts to answer your first question.
My idea for change in the world is heavily focused on perception. If we can enjoy the warmth of perception we can embrace peace and spirituality. As I’ve said, Se dominates the world. In our current culture…. Se is quickly looped into a judging function. This is because of the competitive nature that has developed through Cynicism and the smug cultural phenomenon of media. Belittling and dismissing other people’s thoughts cause you can’t relate to them is cancerous. If we tell someone or give someone the impression that we’re better than them, they will not be open to perceiving other angles…they will, in your words, be closed minded. The only way to become open minded is to spend a much more extended period of time on perceiving functions. So yes the first step into a better world is to stop the “us vs them” and “I’m better than you” mentalities. Also, intuitive introverts need to understand we have some weak ass functions in our stack. We need the help of sensors to navigate the physical world and show us what it’s like to have fun. So I don’t want to make enemies with them… especially cause they need us too….they don’t know they do, and that’s the challenge. Not saying that the us vs them mentality is Ni vs Es, but I am trying to draw intuitives into the mix of responsibility. Ni users have the gift of insight… INFJs specifically were made to bring change… and the good news is INFJ’s are understanding themselves sooner in life and are forming an ever growing community. They just have to get off the infj you tube videos and websites and start “flowing!” cause their fancy car doesn’t mean shit if they can’t put any gas in it. Anyway, these are just my opinions. I encourage any disagreements or added thoughts you may have.
This discussion seems to be heading in a truly extraordinary direction. The exchange of frank and honest views is somehow bringing our individual insights together to form a collective intuition that is considerably greater than the sum of its parts. Blake’s provocative but accurate observations on this forum to date have provided a jumping-off point for many of our own ideas and discussions, but this one strikes me as being particularly relevant to the current state of the real world that exists beyond cyberspace.
I don’t have time to elaborate right now, but my own Ni has been triggered by a combination of the following:
Sammy’s comments on Se vs Ni, Steve’s mention of Lenore Thomson’s book, our previous discussion about fractal patterns, my own studies into the deeper aspects of Type, and of course Blake’s ongoing advice on the importance of the auxiliary function.
My Ni needs some time to process all of this but hopefully will come back with something useful and valuable to share here.
For now though, it’s goodnight from New Zealand, a country which itself has suffered quite badly in the last week.
Hi Sammy,
First, can I be awkward and thank you for this exchange? Thank you.
Is it so much as a “I’m better than you” mentality as it is a technology problem? Do you think that this mentality is worse today than it was 100 years ago? Or is it just media making it more present in our everyday-lives?
“Enjoy the warmth of perception”. I don’t believe perception is always warm. At least not to me. But perhaps you’re using the word “warmth” as a metaphor. Warmth – Sun – Light- Enlightenment.
“They just have to get off the infj you tube videos and websites and start “flowing!”” I tend to agree with this. Maybe INFJs feel lonely, so they seek like-minded individuals. But, I do believe there is a point in which they grow out of this and want to do something. Like you said, they do bring change. It’s a developmental thing.
Who knows what the first step is. Perhaps we’ve already taken it. May I say, I agree and disagree with your “first step”. I disagree in that this seems too primitive a first step. Seems too simple and too demanding all at once. I do agree that there are problems with smugness. However, I just believe that smugness is a poor quality in humans rather than being a part of a humanity progress issue. It is challenge. When I was younger, I told my mom, “I don’t want to go to Heaven.” Of course, she wondered why. I told her it was because there’s no challenge. There’s no fight. And if there’s no challenge or fight, where is the reward? Where is the progress? You could argue that life itself is the challenge. But do you understand where I’m going with this? We cannot all be on the same page for progress. Then, progress itself does not exist. It’s like competition. Competition exists so that we may better ourselves. So that we may have the opportunity to say we are better than person A or B, OR we can say we are better than we ourselves were the day before.
“I think Se and Ne revolve around the present moment. Si is the past, And Ni means nothing till it’s something….but it is the only light into an uncoded future. I’m sure someone can build onto that with more depth.”
This I want to know more about. Perhaps Blake can take this and run with it. I need to search through his articles more. I am sure I’ll find some answers in his “Got Perception” article. I need to understand more about Ne and Ni because their root is the same – intuition. Which, intuition in itself is huge. And how do we differentiate between Ne and some other extroverted functions?
I would like to come back to Apollo vs Dionysus. Was it not allegory that Nietzsche was fond on? At first in harmonious terms, later he leaned closer to Dionysus – passion of life, amoral, creative and destructive, unbridled, chaotic… I just have to wonder whether his age and our age are not similar and if yes, then in what ways.
I believe I read somewhere that S and N together form a complete view. Se is in Present and Ni looks into Past and Future. Si looks into Past and Ne is in Present and looks into Future. How correct is this statement I can not say.
Erika, thanks for breaking me out of the naive aspects of my thoughts. Let me clarify what I can and reconstruct some thoughts based on some great points you brought up.
First, technology is 1000% responsible for building on this “better than you mentality.” Our immediate surroundings do not always reflect what we see or read about online or on tv….but this frames our judgement non the less.
I do stand by the idea of “perception is warmth.” But I do need to explain it better. In non mbti terms, I’m talking about self reflective growth. If you jump to your judging function, my thought is that you’ve reached the limit of self development in a specific area and you can reject any new insight. (Being Closed minded). If you can embrace the act of ongoing perception you are able to continue your growth journey. This applies specifically to Se…because again my veiw of changing the world is heavily focused on influencing the majority, which are Se users.
My thoughts on INFJ’s obsessively researching INFJs is me speaking to myself as well. Once I read Blake’s “Fe is magic” idea, it lead me to a huge breakthrough in life. The constant research at first is a nessasity, and we owe it to ourselves because of the detachment and complex lives we’ve lead. But once this internal revolution settles its time to project this self revolution externally and start “flowing.” Stewart made a really great point about the collective insight we have that paints a bigger picture. Figuratively speaking, One Ni user possesses several perspectives that they’ve collected throughout there lives….but if you take several Ni users and put them in a room, the amount of perspectives that will be expressed could lead to something BIG!
Thinking about what my first step was….you’re right…cause what I’ve mentioned wasn’t an actual step but more of a goal. But I feel change has to be convincing to Se users most of all.
As far as smugness and competition go, yes they will always exist. But can it be reframed? Can we limit the extent and funnel it through without the extreme negatives. Society created the way we interact. With one perfectly calculated shift in the world I feel it’s possible for a positive change. Trump was not that perfect shift, neither was Hillary or Sanders, but the election of Trump was a desire for that shift to take place in the mind of Se. So this desire is there, we just have too feed it.
The need for progress will always exist. As far as competition goes i don’t feel it betters us in the right way, it reminds us of our differences.,,,which can be fun for sport. But within politics it becomes very self inflicting. Self reflectiveness and the ability to embrace growth for our entire lives would be more effective in bettering ourselves as opposed to competition. Self reflectiveness=more time spent on perception rather than judging…For Se users.
Let’s keep this going, we’ll get this right….even if it ends up being an entirely different theory in the end. Lol
Hi Sammy,
It’s all context and how you decide to define or perceive incoming stimuli, and how it interacts with your life experiences. See, this is where I might need to tap out of the conversation. It gets very philosophical. It’s all a fun mental exercise until you come full circle and say, “Who cares?!” Because at the end of the day, you are Sammy and I am Erika and we each have our own paths which are equally valid.
Let’s make this hard by making it easy. What would you say are 4 things in human life that would for the majority of people be categorized as something they would define as being an essential part of a fulfilling life and/or an essential part of reaching the highest developmental level possible? This question goes to anyone who is interested as well.
Hi Erika, great question.
Just wanted to give the Sammy vision a decent funeral first. Lol.
Change always starts with growth of a single philosophical mind set and reframing the context to adapt to reality. Putting the ideas into tangible action steps is taken once a vision is clearly defined. And to clarify, this conversation didn’t go around in a circle. My main thought evolved from my original post based on great insight from you and the other people who’ve commented. But at a core level it’s the same. Before we throw it out the window let me simplify my excessive and random rants to a core idea:
To bring about change in the world, Ni has to focus on influencing the majority of the world. Ni is what brings a change in direction. The majority of people in the world have Se as one of their top 2 functions, so trying to explain an Ni thought at a striped down level will get nowhere. But if its packaged in Se form, it would encourage this majority to subconsciously embrace inner growth. This has happened before. (MLK, Ghandi, Jungian)…A big set back to Se influence is the smug and arrogant talk from Ni/Ne celebrities and the ENTJ talking heads. People won’t listen to you if they feel like your against them.
Moving on on to your question:
1)Embracing harmonious unified traditions.
2)listening to others
3)carved out time for solitude
4)Artistic expression
“What would you say are 4 things in human life that would for the majority of people be categorized as something they would define as being an essential part of a fulfilling life and/or an essential part of reaching the highest developmental level possible? ”
My 4 things would be :
1. Create as much as you consume. Do not negatively contribute to any physical or spiritual imbalance.
2. Appreciate the existence of body, mind and soul as part of the universe. Remember to stop and smell the roses, in other words.
3. Be honest with yourself and to yourself. But also, be understanding of subjectivity & perspective. Be kind. But not weak.
4. Share what you see, feel, learn, know, believe with others. It’s the only impact you can make. Never forget that all impact is indispensible, but insignificant.
There’s no way these 4 things are going to be the same for even two individuals, even if they have the same function stack.. But, for the heck of it, if I were to list the 4 things majority of this world defines as an essential part of a fulfilling life from my current perspective, they would be:
1. Maximized consumption.
2. Personal security. Be in possession of or under protection of physical, financial or intellectual superiority.
3. Find an outlet for personal talents or desires and achieve specialisation in the chosen field.
4. Do not let the illusion break. Try to avoid looking within for fear of not liking who you are. Blame others. Stay happy.
Now that’s probably a rather negative view and might not be applicable to everyone.. but since we’re talking majority here and majority is just 1 more than the average, I think that’s pretty apt..
But if I consider it “negative”, i couldn’t say that point 2 of the majority does not sound familiar to me.. I prescribe to it, yet, I do not personally believe it contributes to a fulfilling life.. Does that not make me a hypocrite? But a self-aware one at that.. So how do we preach our Ni thoughts to Se people and bring about change without participating in this “I’m better than you” game? How do you try to reconcile everyone to the same 4 things listed by one person when there are more than 8 billion people in this world? The 1 more than average will always win because it causes minium disturbance to the ideals of people..
True warmth of perception is to LET GO.. stop trying to convince someone else that they’re right or wrong.. stop trying to convince yourself that your way is the right way.. and when someone really takes that first step, they lose all will to take any more steps.. Yes, that is why judgement is required to survive and that is why this world will never really run the Ideal Way, because judgement can never be ideal..
Thank you for the interesting conversation Sammy and Erika.. I would like to know what other people think of this too..
Piggy,
Your first 4 seemed to be optimistic views for a better world….but were completely overshadowed by your pessimism. You seemed to align with some of what I was mentioning earlier, but weakened your argument by insulting a “one more than average percent of the population.” Erika’s question was just focused on continuing a conversation for change in the world when I started overthinking it. You chose to poke holes in her ideas as well.
Yes judgment is essential to life. But jumping to judgement without evaluating is the same as being closed minded. We can’t force the judgment we want, but we can influence people’s web of knowledge just like my web of knowledge can be influenced by you if you had the right intentions and understood (not necessarily agreed with) my perspective.
My original veiw has been put aside (see the ceremonious funeral above), but I choose to continue with this conversation because it involves a steady stream of ideas and perspectives for change.
@Sammy
I did understand your perspective.. probably didn’t have the right intentions.. been floating in the sewer of my id recently.. so.. the light optimism triggered something vicious.. chose to avenge myself with the “I’m better than you” loophole.. I apologize.. I was being a douchebag 🙂
I actually do agree with a lot of points you made.. I like the concept of prioritizing perception over judgement and I agree that the hurry to bring closure to perception via judgement is the cause of closed mindedness..
I believe this hurry has a lot to do with how “little time” people have these days.. Just like we owe the rise of the “I’m better than you” sentiment to the advent of technology and the internet, this illusion of the contraction of time is also a result of technology and too much information, combined with a rapid decline in the ratio of resources available to global population..
Technology provides people with so much information that they must make a quick judgement before they can move on to the next perception.. There’s a lot of self-reflection lost in the process.. So ironically, the internet and media has made us more closed minded instead of exposing us to more and more ideas..
Coming to the second point of lack of resources.. what’s happening is, Se users are getting freaked out about not having enough resources.. In earlier times, Se users were driven by the instinct of self-propagation.. Now Se users are being driven by the instinct of self-preservation.. People are feeling like they are running out of time to protect themselves.. This leads to the negative manifestation of Se behavior.. People marking their territory and adopting exclusionism, because lesser competition means greater probability of survival.. And for those who have secured enough for themselves, it goes to the next level of hoarding resources at the expense of the economically and socially backward regions of the world.. they don’t see what’s wrong with this because they can’t zoom out and see the bigger picture, that there’s no future if this continues.. and that the anger they’re provoking in the less fortunate through this behaviour is going to add to their Se anxiety in the near future through provoked backlash..
But why aren’t they able to zoom out and see the bigger picture? Why can’t they see that there are better ways of tackling these problems? One, because they’re naturally inclined to pay attention to the immediate Se needs.. Two, because of the aforementioned media and technology.. It fuels the anxiety rather than allowing people to think for themselves.. It plays the role of biased instigator largely because it caters to the interests of those in power.. And their interests usually lie in divisiveness..
So a very effective step might be to have a global platform for sharing unbiased, apolitical information and ideas with people.. Ideas for all rather than just one section of humanity.. Get enough people interested in independent thinking and the solutions will come easy because they’ll come in the many.. And then have an equally unbiased and apolitical body, but with more guts and power than the UN, to implement these ideas..
But a simple first step might be to just do these things informally with a bunch of like minded people on social media.. Create art and music and movies and write books and poetry that talk about these things.. Flood social media with these thoughts.. It would be even easier for already famous artists to start the trend.. Hell, Bob Dylan won the Nobel prize for being his honest self.. People listen and they absorb these things subconsciously.. And if enough artists are talking about the same things they’ll probably sit up and notice.. It’s not like celebrities don’t do these things.. But they’re more often than not taking sides and then switching sides.. why not do something truly universal? I think the Global Citizen organisation is one such initiative actually.. so there are things happening.. they just need a lot more involvement..
I also like your idea of presenting Ni ideas to Se users in shiny Se packaging..
I think i mentioned Elon Musk in a comment on another article.. I think he’s an excellent example of this very idea of yours.. Creating tangible Se products that encourage people to live more responsibly..
And I actually don’t find anything particularly wrong with the “I’m better than you” attitude as long as it’s used in a universally productive sense.. It’s okay for Elon Musk to think he has better ideas than others, because he’s actually proving himself right through his actions, which are benefitting everyone.. The attitude becomes disgusting only when it’s destructive or not backed by proof..
I feel like the main tenets of what a majority of people believe are essential to a happy and actualized life are pretty simple and you build from there. it’s probably something like:
1) something to do (jobs, hobbies, process, Se? some Te, Ti, Ni, Ne?)
2) someone to love (people, animals, family, Fi, Fe)
3) somewhere to belong (home, community, Si, Se)
4) a plan to believe in or follow (religion, promotions, progress, philosophy, Si, Ti, Te, Ni, Ne)
You have to touch on all four to really touch people in their hearts, guts, and head, I think. It follows that people also are very dependent on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. People won’t really care about high-minded values if they feel they are starving or have no place to belong (as it’s linked to shelter and safety).
Unfortunately, it’s also a little too easy to manipulate. Prod people and tell them that they will no longer have a place (your culture will become the minority!), you won’t have things to do (your jobs are leaving!), no one loves you (you’re a terrible person everyone hates!), everything you follow is garbage (you’re clueless and are doomed to being wrong!), and you will have people scrambling for false hopes and promises that these essentials can be provided/regained.
I think that is what happened. People are getting duped after they already felt duped and they are searching for reassurances haphazardly.
I’d say that Ni and Ne peeps should help advise ENFJ and ENFP or something to get the messages out. They are good at petting people’s frazzled needs and making it sound authentic and critical (even if INFJ and INTJ might cringe a little at how it’s dramatized haha). I’d recruit ENTJ and ENTP as well, but they are a bit of wild cards when it comes to this stuff.
Piggy, you bridged a lot of the gaps in my thinking and explanations. Thanks!
Also, I had something in the back of my mind about something Elon Musk said in an interview. He said something along the lines of, “if I had an opportunity to push a button to change (something I believe in) he wouldn’t do it, because it would be irresponsible cause people wouldn’t adapt to it in a positive way. He continued to say the answer would be to accelerate the already developed processe for change.” He was referring to renewable energy, but non the less it’s a great statement to learn from for the even bigger picture.
Proxy, love the idea of INFP’s and INFJ’s advising ENFP’s and ENFJ’s to get a message out and agree with your top 4 list.
Thank you Sammy, Piggie, and Prax for your thoughts. 🙂
@Piggie
I looked up Elon Musk, wowzers. He reminded me of my intj dad too. Interviewer: What is the next thing you’re working on? EM: Chuckle chuckle I can’t say. Interviewer: Can you give a hint? EM: Eye rolls, well the next thing I am looking at is the (he chews out the next word) … obvious. Eye brows eye brows hint hint. Lol.
My dad is always doing the dry riddle talk:)
Elon Musk believes we could be living in a simulation!
Lol. To me this reality is so not real don’t need no probabilistic argument lol:) If it weren’t for the occasional physical pain or something, I swear none of this is real. You’re born, it’s like the on button. You die, there is an off button. Out like a light. Also sleep is sleep mode. You’re born somewhere, assigned some role. You’re a character. Just like with characters, people size you up very quickly based on your “attributes”. Just having attributes that others read. That’s like being cartoony.
The mental pain, all that, doesn’t seem real either. Love, especially, not real. I hope to never fall in love again because it’s the least real of all.
I really hope Elon Musk’s solar panels for homes takes off soon.
I really hope we are not in a virtual reality and hope you are just using a “beyond sammy’s mental capacity” intuitive metaphor. Because Elon Musk would be the perfect villain. (A.I. future plans) and Most of the INFP potentials for super heroes are comedians. However, if Dave Chapelle is our new savior I will give him a chance as long as infj Marylyn Manson is his Yoda.
You just have a gift of being able to see things from multiple angles. (A rare balance of left and right side brain functions.)
The world is very real. This is proven by the fact that Elon Musk is one of the good guys.
Hi Sammy, yes metaphor. I always feel like things are not real, like at all times. I think it might be biological. Something wrong with my neurotransmitters?
So I am finding what Elon Musk is saying fascinating, but he views it like as something quite possible, “literally”. He says it is the probably best outcome, he has some argument for why.
By the way he is concerned about the evil use of AI and one of his projects is to plan for how AI misuse can be prevented.
For whatever reason, I find it incredibly satisfying to think life is a simulation. That feels good to me. And right. But I don’t think of it literally like how Elon Musk seems to. More like there is no entity that does the programming. There simply IS programming is how I see it.
I gave birth and it was real yet wasn’t. My kids emerged from nothing. I barely ate more than usual and out they came flesh and bones, separate from me. It feels illusory.
Or plants. You put a seed in soil, give water, sun. Out comes a fruit-bearing tree. Look how different the composition is. Leaves face the sun and grow. It’s like making something out of nothing. From plants alone we can get bone, flesh etc.
Star dust.
To me it’s a lot of composition changes that are inexplicable. Science describes but does not explain:)
@lunar
Stuff like those solar roofs is why I always feel like people who prioritize thinking functions are more ‘useful’ in an immediate sense.. Feelings are like the sledgehammers of the past and the future crushing the present.. But well, maybe we feelers aren’t meant to implement solutions, but point out what needs to be solved to soothe the urgency of our pain..
Haha.. it does feel unreal doesn’t it? When the only thing you can be sure of is that one day you’ll stop being a part of all this (unless they find a way to make us immortal.. that would be tragic).. who knows, there might be different levels or different games to play altogether.. Should be interesting to find out (or not find out)..
I dunno.. I have confusing thoughts about these things.. I believe in karma and the soul, which does not rule out the part that this is an illusion, but naturally assigns some sort of importance to physical existence on earth.. and then I believe that all these events are part of natural cycles which have something to do with entropy.. so there’s an intelligent universe trying to fix something it messed up.. but I question what the original error was that requires all this drama to counter balance it.. why did 0 become 1 and then give rise to an endless stream of 0s and 1s?
Like you said, science can go on and on about the how.. but the why will remain deliciously out of reach.. the mystery and strangeness is entertaining though..
And I’ve always found the term Artificial Intelligence funny.. i used to wonder why humans chose to call it artificial.. because the circuits which make the intelligence possible are made of inorganic material maybe? There’s nothing else artificial about an entity which can form subjective opinions.. you’re giving consciousness to something.. it’s the same as giving birth to a baby, it’s only the kind of labour that’s different.. just like our intelligence came to be, another intelligence will come to be.. and it’s weird that we humans are afraid of what we might create, when we ourselves are kinda like AI.. so who is to say it should or shouldn’t be, or whether it’s going to be benevolent or evil.. Might be a bit of both, like us.. Residing in metal or organic compound, it IS all stardust anyway.. i like that word.. stardust 🙂
“Intelligent universe trying to fix what it messed up.” Does it ever reiterate? Or is it always shifts? Sometimes I play with the idea that past and future lives are actually simultaneous in the sense that there is only one fabric for all of them . Or the id? Does the id hold a clue to the past or future? On and on…..
“Sometimes I play with the idea that past and future lives are actually simultaneous in the sense that there is only one fabric for all of them . Or the id? Does the id hold a clue to the past or future?”
Hmm this kind of links to what i was thinking about when i asked that question about the linearity of time based on the id.. Maybe you feel this timelessness because of your Ni and your closeness to the void.. I see the timelessness too, but from a relative distance, with a somewhat grudging acknowledgement of linearity in an erratic internal sense, because of my closeness to the soul.. the soul grows linearly, in spurts, but its context, the void in which it exists, might not be linear or might not even exist in a material sense.. The context does not reiterate.. It just exists.. But it provides space and the illusion of time for the soul to grow.. why though? 😛
@Piggie
The heart beats as if against a still background, but our clock is biological, so we beat with the rest. The rest has not ceased or disappeared.
Individual soul shaping against the void and within a big overarching soul ?history? Wowzers.
There is an information pool. And there are the stories.
@Piggie
True is lunar. I have no idea how that happened.
@lunar
Figured from the writing style.. but noo change it back 🙁 True sounds like ISFJ..
Just pictured what you said as a simmering cauldron full of collective consciousness with individual soul bubbles.. some sort of water cycle thing going on..
And I think I understood what you meant by past and future being simultaneous because they’re occurring in the same fabric.. in a dimensional sense.. juxtaposition..
Dunno why I’m thinking of whether the universe has an aura too.. it’s a cosmic latte colour if we look at it from the earth right now, because we’re still receiving the light emitted by the younger versions of stars from billions of years ago.. but it’s going to travel across the colour spectrum towards red with time, as the light from the ageing stars reaches us.. ah well, that’s if the earth is even around that long.. and even if it is, we might not be humans.. 😛
woW, double personality True/lunar. I am stunned, frightened, and intrigued all at once.
True and Piggie, I thought of this poem from your conversation. I wont type the whole thing.
Burnt Norton – T.S. Elliot
“Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.
What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.
Footfalls echo in the memory
Down the passage which we did not take
Towards the door we never opened
Into the rose-garden. My words echo
Thus, in your mind.
But to what purpose
Disturbing the dust on a bowl of rose-leaves
I do no know……”
@Erika
Thanks for the poem. 🙂
@Piggie
True is fixed to Lunar. Might be a question of being signed in or not.
I like your water cycle image. I like how you read people’s posts and inhabit them, make sense of them. As if you have energy and mental agility.
Thanks Erika.. Love it!
Beautiful reflection on time, determinism and a could have been relationship.. Blake types Eliot as an INTJ.. surely some lovely Ni there.. 🙂
I watched Arrival.. I don’t want to give away the story, in case someone wants to watch the movie.. but lunar, it totally reminded me of this convo and your idea of time.. how deep your Ni must be..
The movie itself is such a profoundly moving exploration of communication, our experience of time, humanity, being human.. (I think the lead characters were INFJ-ENTP)
@Piggie
Only saw you Arrival comment now. Will check it out:)
Steve, I very much agree with your thoughts on the judging functions and value your deep insight. I didn’t set up enough context. The context of my thoughts on SE were in regards to making a change… which Emily brought up, and which is sadly a rare point made within mbti communities. My point is our world is dominated by SE percievers. I’ve had to give presentations to corporate field leaders about my NI that stays within SE business context, so I know that challenge well. It is a challenge that holds back progression on a much grander scale in the world. A refusal from an NI user to not communicate in SE terms with the world will only hold things back further. I just feel that the answer to “change” is to prolong the amount of time the perceiving function takes place before judgment kicks in. This will also offset the close mindedness that Emily was referring to in her comment. Getting people to recognize that never ending personal growth will “change the world” is the challenge. It’s the question that I was trying to tie into Blakes theme, wether right or wrong was my point non the less. But I am aware that I am doing a terrible job at it. lol
A great post, Blake. You’ve articulated what I cannot.
I was also disenchanted with liberalism back in the early 2000s…when it started to be about marginalizing others as way of combating marginalization…of others.
Regarding Trump: he’s not just an ENTJ, he’s THE ENTJ (in my understand of MBTI). The environment was perfect for him, in all ways. I sincerely saw him winning this, as far back as when I knew he was serious.
I recommend this video. It’s clip after clip of reporters, talk-show hosts, Obama, Obama on a Talk-Show (of course) repeating that Trump will not be President.
https://youtu.be/zT0Rjc6jKCg
Repeat a lie/opinion until everyone accepts it as fact: This is the new liberalism.
Except…it failed this time.
I don’t consume much Comedy Central or SNL, so I wasn’t sure why the media/entertainment industry went crazy wen Trump won.
I see now they were eating crow…getting throat-banged by crow…er…something like that.
“I started seeing these new liberals in the early 2000’s. The internet was just taking off. Then social media. Then these fucks were everywhere.”
Are these the young people with blogs, summaries of their past year’s enlightened living experiments in a 365 piece series, the young people who have a well spoken tone and enunciate, etc.? Cool glasses? Am trying to picture the reference.
*********
I saw supporters of Sanders get eviscerated on Facebook by Clinton supporters. They were basically accused of being misogynists (and unpatriotic).
So…
since to me it is just almost constantly seeming that reality is just virtual reality….
in a virtual reality, we want some warlord entjs. Let’s have some upheaval. Boring otherwise. Let’s have a bit of everything. Suffering check.
Istjs keep the cables plugged into the right slots, not too bothered by the implications of their being cables. Natural anatomists.
Intjs detect right away they are in an illusion and play with how much can one affect the illusion, tweak the course, perhaps engineer some tweaks into the other side of the fabric why not. While they’re at it, when in the mood, only lol, why not enjoy some of the characters on this side of the fabric. The entps detect that the fabric is stretched upon an amazing structure.
The infps question what would make you continue on the side of this fabric if you are constantly aware of the other side of the fabric. Only that you can’t escape to the other side (Ni id). Therefore the laws programmed on this side will crush you. Just submit.
The intps attempt to code the video game, not realizing they are themselves also coded. Bootstrapping is needed. Ni and Ti loop.
Estps are the winners of the game, the heroes in a way. Talk about “well-adjusted”.
That’s what Trump is to me. In the game, you’re gonna have the occasional entj takeover. Because otherwise, nothing is happening.
In Blake’s article “Got A Problem, Get A Program” he compared the auxiliary function to a computer program.
The new liberals that Blake is describing on this blog seem so hooked on computer technology that they are using it as a substitute for their own aux.
And I wonder if a President’s auxiliary function becomes the nation’s de facto auxiliary.
Obama’s Fe would be replaced by Trump’s Ni.
There is a theory that the enormity of the USA , Russia and China, creates a problem for the rest of the rest of the world. This is because to keep such big beasts alive, power is centralised and in the case of the US, a campaign mentality is adopted. If you think of the US as ENTJ, it’s foreign policy and the myths it spins for its people all make sense. So, does Trump fit well with this command and control US?
Or, would he rather wave a magic wand and spilt up the country? It seems strange to an outsider like me, that some States which are the size of European countries, seem to put all their eggs in one basket economically speaking. This must be ENTJ efficiency perhaps, except when mining or manufacturing goes belly up in a State, what then?
Would Trump prefer a decentralised America, with more local business creativity? This could be good for the environment too. Is he in fact a highly evolved ESTP fighting for the individual as opposed to the corporate? As I say, I’m an outsider and may have got this all wrong.
@Sammy, Erika, Prax & fellow stellar maze cadets
Maybe it’s time for the people with the big-picture ideas to step up and participate.. Take a look at this challenge!
https://youtu.be/6gptj3rlfsA
Very cool, Piggie. Thank you for sharing this 🙂
@piggy
Thanks! Just registered. 6 months to pull all the pieces of my Ni together.
Ni visions happen through Fe or Te. Which is so much harder than it sounds, but I’ve done things that I never thought I was capable of before….so why the hell not.
@Prax
Seeing the Trump entj comments bugged me too. I see no intuition what so ever. He’s the result of the way people were feeling. A well developed tertiary Fe (he’s 70!) So he was able to identify this feeling. He just ran on the sympathies of that one groups feelings and couldn’t adapt to any other feelings. He reacts quickly to sudden outbursts or stand out visuals at his rallies. Se!! His business skills represent his Ti. I could go on and on. But I’d say Trump is an ESTP. I didn’t say anything cause I think the result of Trump is an issue not seen above the surface and is a bigger issue than trump alone….. but I feel better now that I got it off my chest. Lol
I think Ni-doms (and maybe other intuitives?) often have grand visions about changing the world (for the better? to their ideal?) but end up realizing it’s a bit fruitless to give true form to the void that is Ni.. and unsatisfied with their imperfect result hen they do try, want to burn it down or throw it out. lol
That is my general feeling, but I still hope that less lazy types do figure out the big picture ideas that will solve things for the world. *shoves all responsibility onto ENFJs and ISFJs of the world* ~_~
also I seethe a little in my soul each time people list Trump as ENTJ. I will not accept this!!! lol
I tend to like ENTJ who are a fiercely slick and future-forward and sometimes arrogant bunch, but often do not feature the repetitive bluster that Trump has. i still say trump’s ESTJ on crack (or dementia or mercury uranus moon problems who knows).
Someone mentioned that maybe the nation takes on the aux of the president. So if Obama was ISFJ, the US would take on Fe-like tendencies? but why not the id of the president? isn’t that ore tempting? Fi-nation sounds a bit like the individualistic America that comes to mind. anyway, if Trump were ENTJ, you think the nation will take a more Ni-aux/Ne-id angle where everything is possible and looked at deeply? a truly intuitive revolution? I know that a bunch of people hope for this, but I find that not likely. I’d say he’s probably cranked up ESTJ, so you’re going to get some Si-Se felatting instead. which is going to perhaps look like “LETS GO BACK TO GOLDEN ERA WHERE I REMEMBER THINGS” and “LOOK HOW LUXURIOUS AND SHINY AND EVERYBODY CLAPPING AND BAM BOOM!!” amazing!!
Someone mentioned that maybe the nation takes on the aux of the president. So if Obama was ISFJ, the US would take on Fe-like tendencies?
America already has strong Fe tendencies way before Obama came along. Americans are generally noted as being very friendly to people from European countries. Maybe in a fake or superficial way, but’s that’s Fe, especially in the tertiary position. Have a nice day 🙂
but why not the id of the president? isn’t that ore tempting? Fi-nation sounds a bit like the individualistic America that comes to mind. anyway
Yes, I think Fi is more to the point for the current liberal leftist (and also past liberal leftist) outrage/reaction to someone like Trump. In a nutshell, Fi has become more pronounced, not Fe. That does equate to individuality, but also comformity, as in everyone being individual in exactly the same way.
if Trump were ENTJ, you think the nation will take a more Ni-aux/Ne-id angle where everything is possible and looked at deeply? a truly intuitive revolution?
A couple of things to keep in mind. The auxiliary is not deep and neither is Ne. So, on balance if you are expecting Ni in the aux. to be deep, you will be barking up the wrong tree. Trump shows A LOT of auxiliary Ni, especially as he has gotten older. When he was younger, I couldn’t see it as much in videos I watched of him. That bombastic style is very much Ni in the auxiliary. “I know what is right!” I think many people have a lot of misconceptions about what Ni is. It isn’t nice. Nor is it mean. It just is. For an ENTJ, the Ni aux. translates to the equivalent of having an implied Leo Sun. You know all those stereotypes about arrogant and showy Leos? Well, Trump has them to a T. Especially as he’s gotten older and allowed his true colors to shine uninhibitedly through.
Ne is like The Fool archetype in Tarot. The id is one’s internal structure and pathways (like the hardware in a computer vs. the OS of the dominant function). So, I don’t know, do the math on that one. In a nutshell, I think it is a mistake to interpret anything an ENTJ (or ENFJ) says too literally. That’s an Si mistake. And speaking of Si, yes, there has been an overbalance of that in current politics that I think is due to Obama to a large extent. Too much Si and Fi leads to a desire to protect everyone’s sensitivities in a small micromanaged way.
An ENTJ will come in and blow all that to smithereens because that is exactly the two functions they lack to a great degree.
What the heck would be Te id hardware….the physics of the universe? Doesn’t that seem kinda vanilla and boring? Ne OS sounds totally dope though! Perhaps it May Be Something Vague and Ambiguous Like Unbound Infinite Possibility Variation Eternally Unfolding! Yee haw
About Donald Trump entj or not, he shows how hard it can be to type. I feel like I have some partial taste of his flavor but cannot tie it to any particular function. In the Charlie Rose interview, I thought I saw him responding at some point to feeling safe, and he warmed up. No idea what it means. Tertiary Fe? Inferior Fi? If he were estj, I would picture his campaign style as “loose” the way you might see an estj drinking beer and suddenly putting himself out there in surprising ways away from work, like at a party. That would be the visual for me.
@Lunar/Truth (sorry I had to)lol
Hell yes it is difficult to type someone. Never would have guessed Obama is ISTJ, till I read up on Blake’s thoughts.
Saw some of the Charlie Rose interview you were talking about. A different Trump then what I’ve been seeing, so I get where you were coming from. Still didn’t see too much Ni, but since he’s our new president I’m sure we’ll have more to go off of soon.
@piggy, I couldn’t agree more with
Lunar. You bring unthinkable color to everyone’s comments while still using the same paint brush.
Never would have guessed Obama is ISTJ, till I read up on Blake’s thoughts.
Please note that I typed Obama as an ISFJ, not an ISTJ.
@Sammy
“sorry I had to”
Lol 😉
And, Piggie, mucho enjoy her participation here.
ISFJ! Right, sorry Blake.
“In a nutshell, I think it is a mistake to interpret anything an ENTJ (or ENFJ) says too literally. ”
Okay that’s interesting. Actually, something Trump does fits Ni the way you described it in your post. With Te flavor. In conversations with an adversary, he’ll say various things and it has an all over morphing feel to it, somewhat chaotic. I wanna say it is a bit like when a school bully knows there is the one thing that can get to you, and really doesn’t care what other ridiculous things are thrown out till the one gets you, because there is also some level of viewing power as a game and not that much concern of damage back to self. There is also no Si to look back at a record of behavior lol. Even if there is an all over feel to it at times, there is an antenna in a way. Zeroing in on weakness. Focusing on power. Because if he got you, then well that is what Ni was strategizing for. It looks good to win and grants power which you must not relinquish on principle. Because once you’ve got power, you can at any moment lose it…and there is never enough progress on that front.
What do estjs look like when very adversarial?
Well the other way I think I see Ni, is a certain “dream” aspect to his career. The dream of having the tallest building, the strongest brand (the idea of a brand attached to real estate is very Ni isn’t it?), and of course never be a “sucker”. He said once he built to see if it could be done. That is, the symbol of it. That is Ni. Almost like a performance.
You said do the math for Ne id. Well you mentioned ever widening circles for Ne. So something like that in the broad context of power. Possibly anxiety regarding this as well? Ne unbalanced by Si. Wouldn’t that be like seeing a distant goal and needing immediately to conquer it, not take time off, etc. Just keep working and breaking obstacles and use imagination to find solutions.
“In a nutshell, I think it is a mistake to interpret anything an ENTJ (or ENFJ) says too literally. ”
Reminds me of this quote by Peter Theil:
“Trump’s critics don’ take him seriously, but literally. Trump’s supporters take him seriously, but not literally.”
Reminds me of this quote by Peter Theil:
“Trump’s critics don’ take him seriously, but literally. Trump’s supporters take him seriously, but not literally.”
Yes, great quote. I think that sums it up very accurately. With Trump you gotta read between the lines. And, in his case, there is something between the lines to be read.
lunar and Sammy.. thanks for the kind words peeps.. I sound too repetitive and earthy in my head.. lacking the fire I desire.. sooo.. feels good 😀
“What do estjs look like when very adversarial?”
Hehe kinda like bulldozers..
And lunar, regarding what you said about Ni/Ne.. That makes a lot of sense..
Trump is not someone who refines.. He gives it his all till he’s achieved his vision and then he moves on to the next grand scheme leaving someone else in charge.. He’s constantly scanning for different things to go after.. Si is all about refinement.. it’ll do the same thing over and over just to keep getting better and better at it.. Trump said he built to see if it could be done.. estj would say I’ll keep building to see how well I can do it.. And there’s something reckless about him.. he’s the kind of person who can go bankrupt for an idea and then figure out a way to get back up.. estj would never play with the idea of security.. They wouldn’t take risks like that.. such an Ne id thing to do.. estj work hard and stay steady.. Trump isn’t slow or steady.. But Trump is no fool.. He is very calculating and knows when to make his bets.. He had thoughts of running for President decades ago but he waited till the time was right..
Anyway I still can’t rule out estj for him.. Cause his astrology could make an estj look like an entj.. And like Prax I feel like he’s too much of a blustering baboon.. I don’t like aux Ni if that’s what it looks like.. it’s too.. fake, for lack of a better word.. but maybe it’s serving Te and Se so it doesn’t sound.. truthful? I dunno.. something unbalanced about that Ni.. Is that what non-neutral Ni is? aux Ni is the positive use of Ni no? But then my Fe is shallow too.. so I can’t complain about his Ni..
Blake said entj aux would be like Leo sun.. Trump actually has Leo rising with 12th house Mars sitting on the Ascendant.. someone said something about Fe.. he has Mercury in Cancer which has natural emotional appeal.. and he has Sagittarius moon opposing Gemini sun conjunct Uranus.. flip flop clip clop gambler rambler.. should not be taken literally.. anyway, i don’t know astrology in depth.. and if Blake thinks Trump is ENTJ i’ll believe him because he always has good reasons.. I just want to know.. 😛
@Piggie
Yeah I know it’s confusing. About the auxilliary Ni, maybe it makes entjs good problem solvers. Keeps them finding a way to realize dreams within reality. Ni /Ne Id interprets reality. Adds vision and understanding of what is possible.
Maybe like with auxilliary Fe there is both a crappy version and a truly magical version.
@Blake
“Have a nice day” great way to summarize first impression Americans make. So true. “Have a nice one” cashiers.
The Peter Theil quote.
Fruitful Ni of entj gives them nonrigid but nevertheless mystifyingly persuasive way to be a force to reckon with. I totally see it now.
No-o..
i will never accept this in my pure heart
I think his astrology (or mental/physical health issues) strongly affects his mannerisms, but in his guts and brains, he is just a man who wants to look good in front of his kids and have people admire his greatness. Would be almost touching if it weren’t so wrecking ball.
Does this give him access to ENTJ-flavours that will help break through to something necessary though? TBD
He is but something else in ENTJish clothings. An inspiration for ESTJs everywhere perhaps.
I think an ENTJ with the same astrology would be even more of an impressive maniac. Probably would have had many people dead as a result of their climb? lol Not that Trump won’t eventually, but an ENTJ would perhaps be more expedient with the matter.
Unless Blake knows that Trump has like a basement full of bodies already!
@Prax
Hahaha. So you view estj as more driven by being seen as an outstanding representative/upholder of society than entj. And entj is more driven by ——–?
Sounds right.
Yeah Trump what a character:)
I have been interested in what drives him too. In part, because of the shallow reason that I find his personality interesting even if —-. So, that makes me wonder, can an estj have as much “personality” as him lol? I hardly know estjs as a type. Closest type to estj I know is istj and when they have personality it can have some unexpectedly off the wall coloring. I picture estj personality slightly less unexpectedly loose, but nevertheless I picture the humor to have some degree of Quackery????? Piggie, what is estj humor?
These musings are some reasons estj is hard for me to imagine.
It’s like the bluster isn’t wack of Ne. It’s more, it’s the freedom of Ni as a fruitful interpreter.
In short Ne id equals less rigid than estj? Trump doesn’t strike me as rigid.
But sometimes his intellectual side just doesn’t seem so strong, so estp is the other type I can picture that would also express doing something just to see if it could be done. Testing one’s own strength/power/imprint. Why not. Although Te takes over where Se leaves off for the context of power:) the more you want to spread your strength outward beyond immediate, the more it goes under Te:)
Hmm estjs.
Not quackery but wackery.
About Trump….
In regards to being entj, the idea of Ni in aux not being deep makes a lot of sense. When my aux is as close as it can be to imitating a dom function, it takes a lot of mental prep and caffeine.
Estj sounds a bit off. I have a dad and mother in law who are estj’s. They are very dominating, but in a more structured and non ambitious way. I’d think that since trump called a lot of the shots for his own campaign he would run it more in line with how Hillary did if he were estj. But the campaign a lot of the time was very spontaneous, and he is obviously very ambitious.
As for as entj….He makes up his stories in real time and doesn’t seem so precise when he talks like an entj I work with. The entj I likes to explain how and why he does everything he does in a logical way and how he would do it differently in different circumstances. Trump does this but more in self defense after an attack and a lot of the time it’s obviously made up BS or he offsets it by blaming someone else. Trump a lot of times explains things like its taking place in real time, even for his future plans.
I know all types can come off different, and I don’t know a lot of entj’s…. but with that said I’m still thinking estp.
Im definitely going to read more about entj s though.
@lunar
“Piggie, what is estj humor?”
estj nice version of humour is super cute! it’s kinda quirky when it’s coming from the Ne-Fi side of them.. Imagine a less abstract, earthy version of enfp humour but with bad timing and childish pride at having come up with the joke.. sometimes the joke is ‘explained’ while it’s being made.. and sometimes they find themselves sooo hilarious and keep laughing even when it’s like just a normal joke.. I actually find them cute in general when they’re tapping into tertiary.. like a bull putting on some bling and a Hawaiian shirt and relaxing with a Pina Colada while listening to some hip hop.. the ones without a stick up their ass enjoy Se humour.. brash, in your face stuff.. sexual innuendo.. slapstick..my mom watches the worst comedy shows.. makes me cringe.. actually I think even the holier than thou ones enjoy this secretly 😛 sometimes Se id creeps into their own humour too and then they can get really offensive and mean without realising it (sometimes it’s intentional).. but somehow, once you get to know them, you stop finding it offensive because it’s coming from a place of honest simplicity..
The similarities I see in Trump, my mom and another estj friend are mainly related to inferior Fi.. Mom and my friend have the same way of reacting to people when they’re hurt.. just trying to get at ya even if the counter-attack makes no logical sense.. just find something mean to say that you know is gonna sting the other person, even if it’s completely unrelated to the topic of the argument.. and other than that there’s that pride in achievement.. wanting to be appreciated and applauded by family and friends for having achieved something after having worked hard for it.. comes from a combination of Te, Se, Fi.. but both estj and entj have that..
I think he is just mainly image-focused. He likes looking as the figurehead, the main promoter, the “face”. But he’s going to leave the grunt work and thinking part to others. This might be the leonine presentation of an ESTJ.
I think he’s quite rigid in his fixation on his image. ENTJ I think are a lot more flexible with just plain admitting they were “wrong” about stuff and moving on to some new idea. In a “oh yeah, i was wrong, but look at this new things I’m working on that will be great!!”. Trump is the type to never admit wrongness but will instead deflect to a new thing. It’s kind of a different flavour of authority that way, but you can easily dupe people into thinking you are “strong” or resolute.
I think he also just tends to play on a lot of Si wants, as that is his strength. He’s good at tapping into that. The security, past imagery of what constitutes wealth, etc. He clearly wants to join and be admired by the other elites (I find him plying for ENTJ-like people and New York to love him in general.. but alas.. perhaps they will never truly accept him as their kind..!). His desire to “win” every immediate fight challenged to him via twitter or media slam is probably Se-id + Fi-inf triggers–feels bad, must lash back, need to win–then if he wins/gets the last word in, is pleased despite whatever disaster lies in the wake. I feel he can’t help it, and whatever astrological influence he has only exacerbates it.
Do ENTJ act or think this way? I have a feeling ENTJ flavour it quite different and I don’t have the precise words to nail it down.
Anyway, these discussions would be easier if/when the forum is set up! because then we can go back and edit our posts/typos and everything would be organized better..!
@Piggie
The pride of having thought of the joke:) Yep, istj sometimes does that too. It is fun:)
Okay so I think that goes towards an almost innocence. I think Ne and Fi lower in the stack gives this innocence. Lower Ne makes a person hesitant about ability to get punch lines, “get it” in fast free scripted situations. Or to know intent of others etc. But makes them up for “wild” fun time to time.
There is someone I see here where I live that I can’t figure out if she is entj or estj. I think low Fi of entj can make them seem really unintuitive socially. Almost looks square. But somehow isn’t. I really want to learn to tell them apart better.
Piggie, I think I can really see how loosened up Id-like estj and a blustery entj making below the belt use of Ni could look similar. Yeah. Wow, this stuff is fascinating. Addictive.
But are estjs good at “tapping into”? I NEED some estj examples to know what to look for!!!!
But yes about immediate “rectification”. That type of immaturity could be Se id inferior Fi of estj.
Yeah. Sorry to keep revisiting. Si is my CPU. Also this stuff is addictive it is too interesting.
Oh dear…..help:)
@Piggie
So trying to get to you can be seen as Te and Se and they both have. I think this aspect of Trump I thought was to do with his Ni but actually the “vindictive kill” is also a Te Fi dynamic. Kind of a Ha! I’m right you’re wrong!
@Prax
Oh man I can see all sides of this. Like I totally get what you and Piggie are saying.
@Sammy
“and doesn’t seem so precise ”
Yeah. It’s like more targeted and less precise. It is also like “trying on”. So there is a nonrigid moment by moment assessment delivered with force. It’s like the forcefulness of an entj is a special talent of transmission of competence to see a way, I see this way this minute, next minute I see that way, etc. Whereas the forcefulness of estj is this conviction that comes from more sincerely believing in doing things the proper way. Entj is more like, I transmit my power to you. More intangible. You will get the message somehow that they should obviously be the leader. Estj will usually care about what is the proper way to do things, this narrows their vision down a bit. Hungry for power is the entj. Estj might be hungry for control and be the ultimate control freak?
@Prax
“Trump is the type to never admit wrongness but will instead deflect to a new thing. ”
Yeah that’s a total estj thing..
And I get what you’re saying about him trying to get entj-like people to like him.. I felt sad for him when he spoke about his ‘friends’ during debates.. I don’t think he has any real friends.. 11th house Saturn can’t be very comforting when it comes to friend circles and in-groups.. maybe that’s why he’s such an exclusionist.. because he’s never felt included.. 😛
Lol I want forum too.. cause can get tangenty without feeling like I’m crapping on the context..
@lunar
I can tell them apart in real life.. on screen it’s harder.. but it’s earth vs fire.. bull vs dragon (or lion that can breathe fire).. estj can be aggressive, but there’s something reassuring and non-threatening about their physical presence.. entj is powerful presence..
Another thing is their eyes when in a public place.. if you’re sitting at a table and having a conversation with them, enxj eyes will rapidly and frequently scan the crowd.. very noticably distractable.. an Ne id + tert Se thing with Se aim.. they’re checking the competition to see how they compare and also to see if others are noticing them.. and then they’ll ask questions like do you think that person is checking me out? Do i have better shoes than that guy there? Whereas Se id – Ne tert is the opposite.. they scan too, but the eye movement is more steady.. almost like a slowly moving stare.. its more observant for its own sake.. they’ll comment on what they’re seeing.. look at that painting on the wall or that guy’s got a great chest or that’s a strange colour she’s wearing.. but all that requires one on one intimacy.. screen personas are different.. it’s weird that i don’t know of any estj American celebrities.. is Kourtney Kardashian one? Maybe some heavy duty NFL stars.. or some old President might have been one.. they’re a pretty common type aren’t they?
Yeah Te-Fi can be.. cutting in a direct way.. Fe-Ti is bruising with the soothing balm pre-applied.. 😛
“Hungry for power is the entj. Estj might be hungry for control and be the ultimate control freak?”
True dat!
One entj I know wants to have his own designer label to rival the likes Alexander McQueen before he turns 35.. The other entj wants to have his own business empire and be on the cover of Forbes before he turns 40.. and they’re actually doing something about it.. they’re on their way.. whether they get there or not, they’ve taken more than just the first step before they’re 26.. power hungry? hell yes!
estj dreams are kinda more hearty.. but they want to overlook every single thing at every step.. control freak is the right word.. for the ones I know atleast..
“Another thing is their eyes when in a public place.. if you’re sitting at a table and having a conversation with them, enxj eyes will rapidly and frequently scan the crowd.. very noticably distractable.. an Ne id + tert Se thing with Se aim..”
Like this: at time marker 4:40?
https://charlierose.com/videos/14730
“I think an ENTJ with the same astrology would be even more of an impressive maniac.”
Same thoughts.. like ENTJ squared..
And would probably look cooler being that kind of maniac..
His associate though, that Bannon guy, seems like a regulation creep.. Wouldn’t be surprised if he’s been hiding something in his basement..
I surely belong to the young millenial hipsters you are talking about Blake. I am vividly aware of our lack of substance.
But I can’t help to find the election of Donald Trump as the President of the US somewhat funny. It’s as if the flower-power rebellious spirit of our parents has failed tremedously. The reality is that they left us with nothing but cynicism. It’s too easy to believe in nothing. Now there’s Trump, and it’s going to get ugly. One move and we’ll all be fired !
Maybe I’m misinterpreting Julie’s comments, but when I first read them I felt much despair behind the sardonic humor.
I read it again more closely. Julie seems to be saying that because of Trump’s election, her generation thinks this:
“Because our parents’ values failed, we believe in nothing.”
This is an interesting generational reversal. In the 1960s the young baby boomers believed in their own values and that their parents’ values were worth nothing. All empty and lacking of substance.
One of the ironies of this election is that it was won by a baby boomer, just not one that believed in the “flower-power rebellious spirit” of the 60s.
But he is definitely is rebellious in his own way.
In Obama and Trudeau we have 2 heads of state that didn’t flat out call Castro a dictator. Instead offering their condolences etc.
Would an estj react more to direct opposition whereas an entj might react to signs as much as direct opposition when inclined? Trump does a lot of reacting to commentary that isn’t even addressed to him.
What do you mean by “signs” as differentiated from “direct opposition”? Do you mean indirect opposition? And if so, elaborate on what you mean by that.
With Trump, was trying to kind of do a comparative thing with people I know. With estjs, even though I don’t actually know for sure of any that I know among friends, I think that they get kind of riled up. But it feels like they simply want to put a stop to you. Right now. Square shape. Like they might burst some veins in their heads, in extreme case. It is triggered by wanting to reign stuff in sometimes. I am specifically visualizing one male student that I think could be estj, for whom one of the triggers is anything deviating from very clear cut and his own frustration. Looks like having a fit. It’s kind of hard to watch, because at the same time, there appears to be a basic decency. It’s a frenzy. I think his Ne is weaker than could be and also he struggles more with the Fi than a female might.
Entj, I only know one I think, who happens to be a bit striking. It feels a bit different. More like a manic ranger. So she will not exactly stop opposition but might utter a put-down, then throw out preemptive strategic ____ indescribables. Like it is not mines. It’s more like vibes that basically says mines are readily available if needed, all implied potential, possibly completely false yet certain. That’s when she really is unpleasant. The reactions can be to more than just direct opposition, which actually I don’t know maybe she is okay with direct opposition. It can be a reaction to having a sense that things are against her. It can be that she actually saw something and saw you are against her. Some level of interpretation I guess you could say. (And also totally repressed stung feelings to amp it all.) Other times it’s more like little subtly adding on of power, for no reason yet realized, I am not even really clear on how she does it, but she so does it.
So entj it’s like interprets opposition but then retaliates on principle and with less dissonance in order to “stake out” ground; estj blocks actual opposition. Maybe?
That was how I imagine glaring estjs and entjs. Most of the time I bet they are pleasant energetic extroverts.
I think entj can retaliate with less dissonance due to the interpretive power of Ni, yet they might care to do so less often. They are almost more powerful than estj that way, less quick to annoyance. Maybe that is what I mean by “signs” perhaps. The opposition has to be more significant and to determine significance means to just know the signs. On the other hand, they may sense betrayal or potential more subtly than an estj. So when they deal with that, they could seem more despotic in their reach. More absolute.
When Donald Trump won from the election, I wrote this poem at the McDonald’s. (Joke)
I wrote whatever I want to say and then revised it a lot. I was sort of want to talk about something. Angry about something but somehow sad. When I read about it, I don’t like it. I was like I want more and make it better! Later, I was considering what I want to talk, for whom and for what and then rewrote it again and again. Word choice was like a thunder. I just wrote down whatever comes in my mind. I am not sure what kind of cognitive function was used but I’d like to share it if it would be helpful how cognitive function works to INFJ. -Good Student-
Dear God.
God’s play. God is rolling. God plays with a shame and despair. I get angry even on a crawling ant. Give a shame on trees. Let them cannot stand on their roots. A fruit is too existential to judge what love is. I speak like a crumbled bin. More than a word. I don’t polish it at all. Words are killing the times and then stopped. Honesty is luxurious to beg to the God. Mirror never undertake who you are. I am drifting from my dead body. I will serve an apple pie to you at my dark cave. You cannot be welcomed.
Hello God! This is me. Yes, me. Hey God! Please let me breathe forever. I am normal and I am good. You are frothing at your mouth so stop howling to me. I am a human being you elaborate with giving a wet breath. I am disappearing from your eyes and then crawling to beg to you. Such a toppling soul. I am mad to escape from the death. Nothing and everything. It’s contradiction. When you read my lung, there is a vast furrow. You could find a goodness. When I turn my back on you, I get healed, relieved and released with cruel coldness. We are both criminal.
Hey God! Am I scared you? I will spread what love is on the ground. Give a blessing to dead buddies at your unknown home in the sky. My sister likes books. I will launch a wooden bookshelf to heaven. You are on the turn. Look all around to serve naked books. Fuck you but I love you so keep your eyes on separated souls not me. I am almost done with a grief. We are over to be free.
God’s Play.
God’s play began. God controls with a fear and despair.
I am rolling. I get fear even on a crawling ant. I am normal. I am good. You are frothing at your mouth. Stop howling to me. I am a human being you give an elaborative breath. When you read my lung, there is a vast furrow. You could find a goodness. Why I am not welcomed?
God rolls with me. I speak like a crumbled stone. I don’t polish it at all but it is better than your voice. A voice killed her peaceful time and then gone. I am mad at the ground so I am digging what death means. Life is nothing and death is everything. It’s contradiction. Do you know what you are doing?
Give despair on trees. Let them cannot stand on their roots. A fruit is too existential to judge what life is. I’d like to serve an apple to you at my dark cave. We are both criminal. When I turn my back on you, I get healed, relieved and released. I am too luxurious to beg God. Are we over to be alive?
Give a blessing to buddies at your unknown home. She went to black. She became stiff. She just has drifted from her dead body. Please let her breathe forever there. When she opens her eyes, there will be a comfort blanket. Can you love her?
God’s play was over and begins abruptly again this time. When to end is unknown. What’s next?
OOPS Bracket is gone that I marked to identify two versions of it.
(Dear God) -> First Draft
(God’s Play) -> Final
Hi Yona,
I appreciated reading this. Thank you for sharing.
Give it up to Blake that was a refreshing post. And spiritual, too, and here I thought that maybe you were one of those pesky, tolerant new-agers. What a pleasant surprise :).
GodDamnit, thoughtful people, stop weirding me out. Here’s a wasted comment, but it’s three AM and I don’t have enough status to tweet like trump so ill settle for this…
So here’s from an entj who started vomiting when trump won. Because it felt like “fuck, I’ve been overvaluing consistency and assigning to high a risk profile to my own on-the-record bullshit.” I was vomiting for failure, my wife’s and daughter’s, their failure to ever fucking win. Took me till the next morning to remember this isn’t my problem.
I spent forty five seconds a few weeks ago googling Donald trump and mbti because I was like, OMG, this guy is an intuitive and I have been totally writing him off as a clown.” which isn’t entirely true, during the primary i spilled 5,000 words or so on his brilliance, but it just isn’t worth pushing that kind of article out as a white male leftist with high income in a time when censorship is the left’s new Loud And Proud (like for real I stayed away from learning about this Microagression thing because I just couldn’t handle the idea that higher ed institutions are seriously behaving so skittishly; I logged it away as right wing bullshit claims by people who hate professors, but Jesus, the censorship. Ugh).
But when Donald trump did not pivot after the primary, especially when he has such moderate credentials, I lazily assumed he was a racist or something. It just seemed so unstrategic. I felt he was only in the runnings with a 35% chance the night before because of the FBI Hates Hillary thing. Then he won, and I puked, and then I spent the next couple weeks reading up on what the folks who voted for him actually believed, and I feel fine.
a wise rich white guy once told me in 2008, in sing songy words, every time I came into work for him with a new tale of how seriously serious it was that Obama needed to get elected and how our local clients were assholes for being overtly anti Obama, “one person can’t make a difference.”
^and thank goodness!