The following is an interview with me on the subject of astrology from a reader that had questions about my method of interpreting astrological charts. This led to an interesting conversation that I will reproduce here. Enjoy!
What is astrology?
Astrology is about how the stars and planets influence your life. I look at it psychologically, I don’t do predictive astrology and I’m not interested in knowing the future. For people who want that, you should know that’s not what I do.
There are many different ways astrology can be used, but historically it hasn’t been used psychologically.
My primary interest in astrology is psychological, as it determines something akin to psychological types. That’s something that can be seen through the lens of astrology. Something like planetary types or zodiacal signs, and the psychological types that are described by those symbols.
How is astrology useful psychologically?
As a subsidiary of typology. I started out learning about my own stuff and I didn’t resonate with my sun sign, but then I discovered there were planets and houses and many other things.
I resonated with Scorpio when I first learned about the signs. My father (who is a Scorpio) had a chart done for me, and told me that when you have planets in the first house, like Pluto, it would give you a Scorpionic bent. That was the beginning of me being interested in Astrology. He told me I was more like a Scorpio, so that motivated me to learn more about it.
What else did you learn through astrology?
I was mostly interested in the aspects Pluto was making. My Pluto is square Moon, and I later realised it was the main aspect of my chart. That’s very difficult emotionally. It’s emotional intensity. Later, when I discovered INFJ, I was able to put it all together. When people talk about homecoming with INFJ, I realized that first with Astrology, it captured me. I identified with being a Plutonian first.
Coleen was also part of that, I met her right around this time after I got my chart done. I met her in this bookstore she worked in, and they had a huge Astrology section. I started absorbing all of that. She was very learned in Astrology, not in a New Age way, but a scholarly way. She woke me up to the scope of how advanced Astrology can be. She was also attracted to Plutonian men. Meeting her and discovering Astrology at the same time with the Plutonian bent was like a coming of age for me.
So, it sounds like you started with the things that resonated with you.
Yes, very much so. I started learning about myself through the chart. I think most people learned astrology that way, either through their own chart or other people’s chart. I started with myself, people close to me, my heroes and trying to make sense of how, for example, people who have the same sun sign are all alike. That’s how it starts for a lot of people. They look at the sun sign and how that works. It doesn’t really work.
Why not?
People who share the same sun sign are obviously not similar. A lot of them don’t even seem to have the traits of the sign. So then that typically leads to going into something much deeper than the Sun sign. So then they go on to look into all the other aspects, the Moon etc. This is what I did too.
They look at their chart?
First of all, a chart is not of much use without knowing your type, MBTI type. That’s what I discovered after studying Astrology for a while. It’s a very cool language, that’s why I like Astrology, it’s superior to any language I know.
Is there a connection between Astrology and MBTI?
Yes. My study of Astrology led me to internalize its language and that’s how I understood type in the MBTI system. I started seeing the parallels, starting with the 4 basic functions in MBTI and the 4 elements in Astrology. I approached MBTI from an Astrological language perspective which, to be frank, is much more advanced than MBTI. I started making Astrological associations with MBTI terminology and, from a very early point, I was convinced that Myers Briggs is Astrology and is actually the branch of Astrology that is known as Psychological Astrology. The thing that was missing from Astrology is that you cannot find your type in a chart in the way that MBTI defines a type. Closest you can get to that in a chart is through your planetary type, one of the 10 planets, which in my case is Plutonian. It took me a long time to realize this, but as far as Psychological Types go, which is something that Astrology talks about too, your birth chart is not gonna tell you on what level your Planetary type is going to be expressed, which is more determined by the nomenclature that MBTI uses, of which first and foremost there’s a Dominant Function.
Can you say more about how the two are linked?
That was around 2007 when I started doing that, but it’s somewhat changed since. It became more nuanced and finessed over time. I realized that the Dominant Function in MBTI is like the Sun in Astrology and the Auxiliary Function is like a rising sign, the Tertiary Function is like Mercury. And then I realized there must be something accounting for the Moon too, and that’s how I came up with the Id function.
Are you saying that there’s a correspondence between MBTI Types and Zodiac signs?
MBTI really is the language of Astrology formulated in a more rudimentary system. The rudiments of MBTI thinking are linked to the Dominant and the Inferior Functions formulated by Jung in a closed system. That is the strongest dichotomy in that system. Oppositions are a concept of Astrology, but there are also other important relationships too, that are not accounted for in MBTI, but there should be, because I observed them in people that are of a certain type. In addition to the primary opposition that Jung was talking about, there are also other relationships similar to Astrological aspects such as square, trine, sextile and all of that.
Going back to things like planets… for me being a Pluto type, which is where it started from, a planet like Pluto would be most likely to express itself in NJ and SP types particularly, Ni and Se types. I started combining the cognitive functions with Planets and Suns, weaving them together. I only know one famous astrologer that does that, Liz Greene, in a book called “Relating”, making the same associations between astrology and MBTI. The mistake she made was that she used astrology to determine a MBTI type or a Dominant Function. That was a thought I had too, but I realized that a chart isn’t showing that.
What does a chart show?
It shows what I would call at this point a subtype. As I said before in my early SM days, it amends your MBTI and is sort of made of the same stuff as MBTI type, but you would have to know that first in order for the chart to be contextualized appropriately because if you’re expecting for a person who has a lot of fire and water elements to be more of an NF type (which is what I would link it to, similarly to Liz Greene, i.e. Intuition and Feeling), they won’t necessarily be that. But they would be colored in that direction starting from whatever type they are. It does show other things too, like strengths and weaknesses, gifts and challenges. In order to contextualize it, you would need to base it off your MBTI type and its implied astrological positions, which are more primary than the birth chart ones.
What does that mean?
For example, Saturn’s position is often linked to challenges, the shit you need to work on. What I noticed is that INFJs have an implied natural Saturn in Virgo position, due to having a Te-Si superego. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s stronger, but it’s more primary because MBTI type is stronger than astrological placements.
It’s the language that’s more important to me, i.e. calling it Saturn in Virgo rather than a Te-Si superego kind of thing, that’s perhaps more elegant, less clunky than MBTI language and has a rich history that MBTI doesn’t. So it all comes down to a language that is superior in its lineage. It’s a visual spatial language that is based on space on circles and actual entities (planets) that exist and can be measured spatially and in time against the globe that we live on. It’s much more sophisticated due to its mathematical and geometrical origin that MBTI doesn’t have. Astrology derives meaning from those spatial and temporal movements against a fixed globe. It’s a semiotic system that is not arbitrary, it’s a language derived from actual observations of the effects of those entities. Astrology is really the basis of all sciences.
I took the language of Astrology and applied it to MBTI to make it more sophisticated and more accurate. MBTI really holds the missing element that all Psychological birth chart interpretations try to answer, which is “Who am I?” and “What type am I?” as measured by those symbols of Astrology. So, Astrology is the mother of MBTI, the mother tongue. And MBTI is really just a specific application of Astrological thinking.
Astrology has many other branches that I don’t deal with. Predictive Astrology is the vast history of how it was used. It wasn’t until the 20th century, with the emergency of Psychology as a field, that the idea of the individual and the importance of their destiny and who they are became important. Before that, it was a matter of state. The king was the only one who would have a horoscope cast for them as the head of the state to determine what would happen, the fortunes of the state, predicting crop yields and stuff like that.
My interest is in Typological Psychology. The closest thing to objectivity when determining what a person is like is the combination of these two systems, in my opinion. That’s pretty much what I developed to answer the questions that humans have when they need guidance and direction about what they should do in life or to know who they are, what they are. Which is a fascinating thing to study.
So, let’s say I want a chart from you. Do you need to know my MB type first?
First thing is, I don’t like doing chart readings, for that same reason. The proper context for a chart to be read is against the MBTI type. Without that missing key, the chart is not as useful. The most value it has is in assessing the Dominant Planet or possible contenders for that position and weaving the interpretations around that. However, I don’t really like doing that because I could just easily talk to the person and determine their MBTI type as well as their subtype as determined by the Dominant Planet. Further, the Dominant Planet may not be particularly clear by just looking at the chart. Just come get diagnosed. It’s sort of like having a guidebook on something versus going to the specialist and having a proper consult. I don’t rely much on birth time, because charts tend to usually be off and there’s really no way to determine if they’re not. The time of birth is very important in knowing the Dominant Planet because of angularity being one of the most important factors in determining its strength.
One of the 10 Planets is going to win the war for dominance as a general rule, even if it’s by a small percentage. Over time, it’s going to be the dominant impress on your life, the primary amending factor of your MBTI type. To determine it, no chart is necessary.
If someone is a specific Planetary type, that means they are actually physiologically impressed with the imprint of that planet, which is a physical reality reflected in their physiognomy. It’s inescapable. I prefer that visual reality over what a chart says. The chart is a tuning factor. It tunes my consciousness, but I don’t rely on it exclusively. It’s an instrument.
What is your method?
Most things are bullshit and I don’t want to get lost. That’s the truth that distinguishes me from all the New Age Psychological Astrologers of today. I look for the one thing that matters the most. In most cases, that’s not hard. Once I make up my mind of what that is, there really isn’t much more to it.
What do you look for?
I look for planets around the angles, any kind of cluster of planets in one sign, I look for planets that are in their own sign or exaltation sign. Then, I look at the general sign background of the chart to see which planets would be the strongest in that mixture. So we have a Dominant Planet.
From there, there are things you can see. I’d be looking for assets and liabilities as shown by the aspects that the Dominant Planet is forming and more subtype definitions via how this is going to amend the Dominant Planetary Type. I then contextualize everything else from that dominant emphasis and start noticing what jumps out at me from this chart. That usually takes 2 seconds to find.
I then discuss the Nodal Axis of the Moon by house placement primarily. This will tell you the most about where a person is overdeveloped and what they need to move away from so they will not lose in life and what they most need to move towards, so that they win in life. This is the concept of opposition just like the Dominant vs Inferior Functions, except in this case you can and should develop the Inferior axis. That’s the key to success as far as I’ve observed in my time studying Astrology and in my experience with people. This always works prescriptively in the sense of “What should I do?”, which is what people usually ask for. “Where should I go?” The North Node answers it the best, it’s in that direction. This is the only aspect that is Prescriptive and I have certainty that it works.
I would like to go in the direction of North Node Astrology consulting, as far as interpreting charts for people in a non psychological sense (without knowing their MBTI type), it’s very interesting for me to see how that is manifesting in people’s lives. It’s a very 80/20 way of getting unstuck through the transformative powers of a chart at a basic level. To go in the direction of the North Node is like challenging your life’s script. Solving a problem on a different level than it was created on, which is exactly the problem with the South Node part of that position. People keep pushing in that direction because there is a real need in that position and they truly want it, but in this life they are scheduled to lose by pushing further on that path. But because it’s so developed, they can’t see it. To go in the opposite direction just seems counterintuitive. Which is where Astrological consulting comes in very handy at something like that. Because I can see that position very easily, I would start writing about it and then at some point I would like to actually talk to the client and that’s where I would start that conversation. If I were a doctor, I would start drilling there. “Does this area hurt?”. If the chart is correct, the pain point should be there. It’s gonna be an issue with a very predictable, reliable form of solution. That can be written about briefly in the opposite North Node position, which comes down to what I call flipping the script, the basic solution to the South Node. That’s where I want to work with people.
Tune in next time for the second part of this interview where I discuss how the Nodal Axis of the Moon is the key to the astrological chart.
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Psychological or not, astrology WILL tell you the future. Because *you* shape the future. Even predictive astrology back in the days had an element of counselling to arrive at an eventual prediction/recommendation MINUS all the “woo-woo” “new age” spiritual shit. I mean, if one consults for the king, that’s a different story and one might do little cop-outs like “oops sorry, this chart can’t be read cuz the ASC is like, too early.” But this is not the point anyways.
The point: “You shape the future.” The less aware you are of yourself, the more you are a slave to your tendencies. That could be bad (usually the way it’s spun out to be) OR good! Yes, my friends. I say “good.” Extreme failures and extreme successes are often the product of being too close to “the source,” usually childhood traumas, etc etc, BUT most will veer into the fail side. Only an extremely, extremely select few will be given extreme success but it comes with far too many problems/repercussions that probably would otherwise lead that person to failure if it weren’t for some extreme saving graces in other aspects of life. Really depends on how one even wants to define success or failure. Anyways, being unaware or not being fully in control is what leads one to a “bad fate,” not taking into account objective measures of “good/bad” (for example, worldly success).
But you could be more aware of yourself through psychological astrology or any other work that involves a heavy amount of intuition and associative thinking. And while I respect Blake’s thoughts and intentions behind his words, I think it also helps to look at it another way – that we actually lie to ourselves when we say any of those practices aren’t truly “predictive.” Of course they are, and it’s nothing to be afraid of. All of these practices exist to help people navigate uncertainties in life, (like therapy), and whether more psychological or not, all of them still go back to the querent or the client or the self and their need to reflect either about their own bullshit/lies or their relationships to others or what they can do to take charge of what could eventually happen. To me, that is all still a way of acquiring some sort of self-knowledge, at the very least, some reflection time to think and strategise.
Self-knowledge can’t guarantee full 180 degree change (and often doesn’t), but we can gain better control of tendencies that can bring “bad fate” to us (once again, to emphasise, a fate which we are “less in control” of, not necessarily materially good or bad). It will at least decrease the probability of us going into the failure end of being driven by ancestral problems, traumas, long built thoughts/habits, etc, and more into the success end, where such things are either tamed/curbed or taken even full advantage of for a better future with the awareness of the bad things that might come with us (so you can do some damage control). So at the very least, one can experience a “better” or “good” fate.
And people are scared of the word “fate” but it’s actually quite vague and has a lot of degrees of freedom of how it is expressed. There is far more agency to it than one thinks. It’s your DNA, conditioning, etc that gives rise to a fate. Now what will you make of it? And as for all those “uncontrollable” events, “luck,” chaos, synchronicities, your friends and your ever changing network, all of that is a product of you. They are just different examples of “compounding effect.” It comes from little things you do everyday, starting from your own thoughts, which all build up in a way – can be energetic (if you want to be “woo-woo”). Anyways, the less you run on auto pilot, the better it is for you. Maximise your chances.
When you are “close to the source,” the greater everything will feel like “fate” in a literal sense. For example, my mother’s chart and my own chart have some extremely eerie synchronicities and it goes down to the very degree – so, nodal axes in the same degree but reversed signs, ASC to moon in the same degree and sign, same venus in same degree and sign (our venus being important in different ways) – and all of the life events and themes that relate to these planets, points, etc for my mother translates to the life I live out like an eerie simulation. Of course, I think it better to not over-share and keep these themes and life events to myself rather than to explain here, but, I’d only like to highlight how even more “fatalistic” ways of looking at astrology can be helpful. If at all, it is experienced this way to me because astrology speaks to me – others may find similar potent insights through other means that will come to them as “fated.” Regardless of the means, the coming comes to those who are capable and ready to receive it – hope that makes sense.
The mother-child connections in astro chart is fascinating – ancestral problems are one of the things Liz Green postulates as a kind of element of “fate.” They obviously shape “you.” And that’s no woo-woo shit, it’s ancient wisdom found across multiple spiritualities and religions across all different cultures, and it is acknowledged in psychology too. Most people will not be able to control what was imprinted by their parents which was imprinted by their parents and their parents (and hence “ancestors.”). But you might. You will probably have to walk in their shoes anyways but you might learn that some things they thought/believed in were wrong, or you may choose not to make the same decisions they did despite being faced with similar conflicts. Or you may make similar decisions to them actually, and realise how their hard decisions have saved your ass so you do the same with others.
Astrology and other predictive work can get that deep but that shouln’t go to the hands of fools. Most people will do it badly. I think even self should not do it for self. It only comes to people ready to be honest, that’s the key thing. It’s not even personality type. And many people want to “learn about themselves” and “navigate uncertainties,” but are they willing to be *honest*? Usually not – and hence, fools.
Great article.
Took the mbti test 3 times, a few years apart, the last one last year. Always infj. Rising is virgo and saturn on the 12 house. Here some feedback to your relating saturn in virgo.